Menlo Church 950 Santa Cruz Avenue, Menlo Park, CA 94025 650-323-8600 Series: This Is Us May 7, 2017 Wise, Foolish, Evil Person John Ortberg & Dr. Henry Cloud John Ortberg: I want to say hi to everybody at all of our campuses, hi to everybody joining us online. This Is Us. We are looking at relationships, because there's nothing that brings joy to you like relationships when they're working right, and there's nothing that creates pain like relationships when they break down. We're here with the person I'd rather talk about relationships with than anybody, Henry Cloud. He has studied them. He's a psychologist. He loves God, has thought deeply about the Bible. Henry, I love what we're going to talk about today. I've heard you address this topic before, and it has to do with nice, responsible people in relationships. It's perfect for our church, because we have all kinds of nice, responsible who go to our church. That's most of the people. You say that it's actually nice, responsible people who often have a significant problem in their relationships. I'd love for you to talk to us about that. Dr. Henry Cloud: Well, they do. Simply stated, if you're a nice and responsible person, you have a problem, and the problem is you probably assume that everybody else is like you. Specifically, what I mean by that is, typically, what a nice and responsible person does is when they get feedback Like if I step on your toe and you're a nice, responsible guy, you're going to deal with me like you think people would deal with you. What would you do if that happened? You'd say, "Henry, don't step on my toe. That hurt." You would expect for me to do what John does, which is say, "Oh gosh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to do that. I won't do that again." John: Stop touching my knee too. Henry: Okay. I'm sorry, John. I didn't know you were that phobic. What we do is we give feedback, and you assume you're going to tell somebody who is hurting you in some way or not performing well in some way, like at work You're going to give feedback, and they're going to be like you and go, "Gosh, thanks for telling me. That will help me be better. Sorry I hurt you," and then they change. Here's the problem: not everybody is like you. The Bible and all psychiatric research that has ever been done has kind of shown us that people are different in three very predictable ways, and you have to deal with them differently. You can't deal with everyone assuming that they're going to be loving and responsible, take feedback well, and change. You just can't do that. You have to deal with them in different tactics, and that's what we're talking about. John: And what are the three ways in which people differ from each other? Henry: Well, there are a lot of ways to look at this. We can go through all the psychiatry and psychology and all that, but I love the way the Bible labels these three, you can say, groups of people, but it's really groups of ways people behave. I hate to put labels on people, but some people do kind of measure in one - 1 -
of these or more. The Bible talks about this group called the wise people, a group called the fools, and a group who are on the evil side of things. Those three types of people require different ways of interacting with them to get to a good result. John: Well, let's start with the wise category, because that'll be the most fun and the most pleasant. Henry: Think about your work, for example, if any of you have people who report to you, or think about your extended family. The wise person, according to the Bible, is not necessarily the smartest cookie in the room. This isn't about intelligence. In fact, there may be way smarter people sitting at the table. Wise in the way the Bible looks at it and the way we know from psychiatric research Wise is a person that when truth comes to them, when you give them feedback, when light shows up, the wise person adjusts themselves to the truth. If somebody says, "John, you're a horse," well, you might look at them and go, "You need medication," but if five do, then go buy a saddle, because we're giving feedback and you go, "Gosh " The Bible says, "Correct a wise person, and they will become wiser still." John: So it's really more about humility than it is about IQ. Henry: Yes. Much more about humility, and it's also about taking in the truth. There's a psychological term called assimilation and accommodation. Assimilation is when you actually let it get in. Accommodation is when you make room for it and make a shift. So a wise person, first of all, receives the feedback. They're not defensive. They receive it. They let it in. Then they kind of evaluate it, and then they go, "Gosh, you're right." The wise person, given feedback, adjusts themselves to the truth. "I'm supposed to be doing it like this. You're telling me to do it like this. I'm going to adjust my behavior and do it the right way." That's the first part of what a wise person does. The second part The Bible says, "Correct a wise person, and they will love you for it." They're grateful. You give them feedback and they go, "Thank you for telling me that, because I want to be better." John: I was just thinking about somebody I had to have a hard conversation with, so I was feeling anxious about it, and then when I said that, they were grateful I had that with them. I was expecting it to be difficult, and it just produced joy. Henry: Isn't that cool? Then what do you want to do with them the next time an issue comes up? You want to go tell them. They appreciate it. There's gratitude for correction. They'll love you for it. The third thing is they grow. You can resource them, you can train them, you can develop them, because it's actually a good investment and you get a return on your investment. The strategy with wise people is to talk to them about problems. A problem comes up. You say, "Hey, we have to talk about this." You discuss it. Things get better. They're grateful. "Gosh, I'm really glad we had that interaction. It's helpful. If you see me do it again, let me know." They just get better and better and better, and you pour resources into them if you're a company, because they can take it. John: Even in families, I was thinking, with little children, sometimes there are children who are pretty small but they're wise. They will respond to feedback. - 2 -
Henry: They will. And they can observe themselves and go, "Gosh, you're right." Confession itself is a relational term in the Bible. Literally, the word means to agree with. That requires feedback. So when we confess we say, "Gosh, God, you're right; I have neglected you" or "I have been unloving in that situation." It helps to talk to wise people. It helps to resource them. It helps to train them. It helps to give them input to get better, but not everybody you deal with is wise. John: So the next category is the fool. Henry: The next category is your friend and mine, the fool. Now the fool may be the smartest cookie in the room. They may have the most talent. They may be the most highly experienced and developed and brilliant person on your team except for this one thing. When you give them feedback, whereas the wise person took it in and adjusted themselves to the feedback, what the fool will do is exactly the opposite. They'll reject it and adjust the feedback to fit them. In other words, there's something wrong with what you're telling them. Like, "Well, that's because you don't give me enough responsibility. If you gave me more authority, I could do this job," or "If the marketing department" or if, if, if, if, if The thing about the fool is they're defensive, they excuse, they blame, they externalize. You're talking to them, and the problem is never in the room. It's very difficult. The problem is traffic or this or that. The other thing they'll do Remember we talked about the gratitude, "Thank you for telling me that"? The Bible says, "Do not confront the fool, or the mocker, lest you incur insults upon yourself." They'll actually "Well, who are you to tell me? I mean, you " Then they switch it, and now it's you, you, you. "Confront a wise person," it says, "and they will love you for it. Confront a fool, and they will hate you for it." They'll get divisive. The whole thing is they cause a lot of pain, and all you're trying to do is help. John: Just to give people a picture so they can recognize where they have somebody like that in their life, any examples of somebody you've dealt with, either family, work, as a client, somebody who has responded in the fool way? Henry: The easy one to pick on Why don't I pick on myself? I'll give you an example. A number of years ago, I was in a small group, and it was a really interesting group. We had a psychiatrist, three psychologists, and a pastor, and I think a businessperson who was really smart. We would get together every Sunday night and read an article or study the Scripture and talk about it. We were together for 8 or 10 years. I remember this one night I'm sitting there, and this woman psychologist, who's a really good friend and colleague for a long time She was interacting with this article and talking about it, and then I sort of went from where she was talking and said something, and she says, "Hold on a second." I said, "What?" She says, "You know, you really bug me sometimes." I said, "I do?" She goes, "Yeah, you do." I said, "When?" She said, "When you do what you just did." She said, "A lot of times I'll be talking, and that'll stir something, and you'll go off in a totally different direction. It makes me feel like you're not even listening. I feel like why am I even here?" I'm trying to be mature, and I go, "Gosh, really? I'm sorry." But inside I'm thinking, She had an abusive father. It's transference. Literally, that's what I'm thinking, that she just can't deal with men, basically. She hates all men. I'm sort of diagnosing her. But I faked it and said, "Okay, well, if I do that again tell me." - 3 -
The next day, I go to the office, and I walked into our controller's office and asked for a particular report, and she goes, "Oh, it's down in accounting. I'll go get it." I said, "No, no, no. I'll go get it." She goes, "No, I'll get it." I said, "No, no, I'll get it. You keep working." She said, "No, I'll get it." I could tell there was something I said, "Why don't you want me to get it?" She says, "Because you'll go down there and you'll be in your work mode and you won't notice that people have any feelings and you're just going to go off on your own idea and not pay attention to where they are, and they're going to be all upset and feel slimed, and I'm going to have to spend the rest of my afternoon with somebody crying." I said, "What?" She said, "Yeah. You do this thing. It really bugs me." She used the same words. She goes, "It really bugs me." I said, "What is it?" She said, "Well, you'll get something in your head. Somebody is trying to tell you something, and you get something in your head, and you'll go off in your own direction. It feels like they're not even listened to." I said, "Really? I do that?" She goes, "Yeah." I thought about it for a second, and I go, Nah, it's a coincidence. By the way, this was in a season where it was like the first of the year, and at the end of the year I'd done a really deep character inventory and asked God, "What's the next character flaw you want me to deal with?" So I blow it off as coincidence. I go to the hospital on Wednesday. We're having a staff meeting and talking about all of the cases. There's an internist on our team, and we go to the nurse's station and we're talking about something, and he goes, "Can I tell you something?" I said, "What?" He said, "You know, I just sat in that staff meeting with you, and you really bug me sometimes." I said, "Let me tell you how." It finally penetrated, and it pushed me over into the, "Maybe I should dip my toe into this wise category, where I actually listen to this instead of negate it and blame it." We do that all the time. John Gottman You've quoted his research. If you want to know if somebody is going to be divorced in seven years, you count these four behaviors. One of them is defensiveness, where we can't take it in. The fool is going to get mad at you. They're going to get defensive. They're going to externalize it, and they're going to explain it away. It's never them. The problem is not in the room. Here's what I love about what the Bible says. This is what all psychological research will tell you too. The Bible puts it this way: "Do not confront a fool." It says basically all sorts of bad things are going to happen. It says, "Stop it." What a wise, loving, responsible person like you out there is doing is you're still talking to them as if you think it's going to help. They're not listening. They're not taking it in. The technical term for this is nagging, repeating the same thing over and over expecting to get different results. John: If you do it louder or more clearly "I must not have explained it clearly enough." Henry: "Let me try this again." The Bible and everything we know says the strategy for a wise person is to talk to them, because talking helps. With the fool, stop talking about problems. Instead, have a different conversation. That's where you take an employee or somebody and call them in and say, "You know, Joe, how I've been talking about this issue? You know how we've been talking about that?" and they kind of get mad at that point and say, "Yeah." - 4 -
"Well, I'm going to tell you something. You don't have to worry about that anymore, because I'm not going to talk about problems anymore. I'm just not going to do that. I want to change the conversation a little bit. I'm not going to talk to you about problems, but I want to talk about a new conversation, and that is that I have a problem, and the problem is talking to you about problems doesn't help. When I give you feedback and talk to you about what I need to be different, it doesn't help. That's the problem I want to talk about. I'm going to need to know something, because here's the deal. I can't expose myself to your not changing anymore, and I can't expose this company. I can't be exposed to one more time of you not getting your work done when we have a big launch for the next quarter and everybody else pays the consequences. All I can do is control me, and I can't expose us to this anymore, so I'm going to tell you, first of all, I need to know a way to make you aware of this so it will help and you'll change. Is there some way I can do that?" I love to say, "Is there a way to give you feedback where it matters?" Because who's going to say, "No"? Then they'll say, "Well, yeah, if you do this." I'll say, "Okay, great. That's what I've been waiting on. But let me ask you a further question. When I do that, if it doesn't help, what would you like for me to do then?" You have to prepare for this. Then what I generally say is, "That would be great. I'll try it again, but this time if it doesn't change I'm not going to talk anymore. I have to limit my exposure to this problem, so there are going to be some consequences. I'm going to have to relieve you of that responsibility so I'm not suffering the consequences of this." Again, with the wise person, talk about problems. It helps. With the fool, stop talking about problems and move to limits and consequences. John: What if the fool is somebody you're married to or somebody in your family? Henry: You know, you preachers, you always start to go meddling. Well, you know what? These aren't discrete categories, but it should be the same, really, in that what we're trying to do is have a conversation in love and respect, and it's really about us and how it's affecting us. You heard these "I" statements. "I have a problem. When I talk to you about your rage or this or that, I can't get you to hear me. Is there a way I can do that? I mean, if I'm part of the problem, I want to change first. If there's a way Is there some way?" You'll go through that whole dance. Then you say, "But I have to let you know your anger makes me move away from you. You want us to be close, but when you do that, here's the effect it has. I need for you to change this or I'm going to have to remove myself from the conversation," or "If you get like that, I'm going to go spend the night at Sally's," or "If you continue to drink like you do and get wasted and belligerent, I'm going to go to [whatever]," or "If you don't engage in our relationship, I'm going to go out with my friends." There are some kind of limits and consequences, all the way to abuse. Then the limits and consequences get severe, where you might have to call the police. You might have to go to a shelter. You might have to separate for a while. The fool isn't going to listen until there are some kind of consequences, generally. Here's the deal. I have great hope for fools, but not by using the methodology of talking. It's the methodology of consequences. John: So, Henry, why would you say you have great hope for fools? - 5 -
Henry: Because fools aren't bad people. I mean, if we got rid of all of the fools in our lives we wouldn't have any friends. They can be fine people, but a fool causes so much pain. Evil is basically There's a difference. Fools are not trying to hurt anybody, but the person who's engaged I won't call them evil, but they're ones who are engaged in evil behavior. Evil is not just causing pain by trying to avoid responsibility. Evil is actually a desire to inflict pain. John: To will the bad for somebody. Henry: As you said earlier today when we were having lunch, love is to will the good for someone. Evil is to will the bad. In major corporations, I've been in board meetings where somebody doesn't get their way or they can't get control, and they'll stand up and look at the CEO and say, "I will bring you down! I will bring this whole place down," and they go on a strategy. The Bible says the evil person has destruction in their heart. That's the motive. It's the intent. Here's where you get to the strategy. A lot of people get hurt because they don't deal with evil well. The wise person What did we say? You talk to them. You give them feedback. You resource them. You help them. With the fool, you don't talk. You give limits and consequences, and there's hope. The strategy for the evil person Nobody said it better than Warren Zevon. Do you remember who he was? Many of you are raising your hands. He was a rock star in the 80s. Remember "Werewolves of London" and all those great songs? Well, he had a song, and he came up with the best strategy. "Lawyers, Guns, and Money." That was the name of his song. It was a great song. I went home with a waitress The way I always do How was I to know She was with the Russians, too Send lawyers, guns, and money Dad, get me out of this. The strategy with evil You can't talk to them. They don't listen to any kind of consequences. You go into protection mode. Lawyers, guns and money is a pretty good one, because there are some people out there that you might be really, really in danger. John: Have you seen evil in your practice, in your work? Henry: I definitely have seen it. If you want to read about this in terms of psychiatry Do you remember the Scott Peck book People of the Lie? He addressed this. Psychiatry doesn't like this topic. You can get into all the metaphysical. Where does it come from? Nature, nurture, or both. We don't know. But we do know that when people have destruction as an intent you have to protect the good. The Bible says the wise person sees danger and hides themselves. If you're nice and loving, you can get taken to the cleaners by an evil person if you don't realize that. Now sometimes lawyers, guns, and money can even make an evil person fall on their face and have a spiritual awakening, but talking isn't going to help, and fighting them isn't going to help. You just have to disengage. That's where the phrase came from, "I'll only talk to you through my attorney." That's protection. - 6 -
John: Let's wrap it up with this, because folks will have to deal with all of these categories with other people and even inside themselves. Henry: By the way, I'm glad you said that. There's no such thing in the Bible as "We're the good guys." All of us have all three of these in us somewhere. There are days where you tell me, "You know, Henry, you really screwed this up," and I go, "John, thank you for telling me that. I won't do it again." There are days where you may give me feedback and it hits a particular button in me that I don't want to take responsibility for or you hit a hurt place, and I might get defensive and cast insults. John: Yeah, want to hurt you back. Henry: Then the third one is I want to really hurt you. How many times have you said, "I'd like to key their car"? That's inflicting pain. That's not helpful, but that's not just foolish behavior. I want to hurt you. John: One of the great concepts that Jesus championed is this idea of forgiveness, and it was not actually popular in the ancient world outside of Israel before Jesus. In the church we hear about it, but at the same time we know there are people where we need protection or there are people where we don't want to be soft or help them avoid consequences when that won't help them. We need to hear a word about forgiveness right now as followers of Jesus, so can you wrap up our time by helping us think about what forgiveness should look like in our lives? I'm thinking especially there's somebody right now who is suffering from a fool. They're suffering from an evil person. They've been suffering for a long time. What do they need to hear? Henry: Well, God knows your story, because it's his story. People he gave to, people he loved Some of them didn't take it as feedback and caused great destruction. Some took an angry fist and tried to actively come against him. Here's the danger, I think, in people's psyches: they equate forgiveness with ongoing relationship. You can't have ongoing relationship without forgiveness, but what God did was he said, "I've done it all. I am letting it go. I am forgiving the world." Now that doesn't mean everybody is forgiven, because to appropriate that forgiveness (in other words, to go past that to reconciliation) takes two parties. God says, "I forgive you; it's all paid for," but you can still be estranged from God if you don't wake up and become wise and say, "God, you're right. I confess. I agree." Then he says, "I welcome you in, and we'll have relationship." But if you're in a relationship and you've tried everything and they don't want to come around and they're still going to hate you, forgiveness only takes one person. You can forgive them in your heart, and you can say, "I forgive you. I want you back. I want to sort this out." But if they never say, "Well, I'm sorry. You're right; I have an issue," then it's hard to go forward. See, forgiveness has to do with the past, and it's free. We forgive. Trust has to do with the future, and trust is earned. It's earned by an ownership and an apology. Jesus was asked one day, "How many times am I supposed to forgive this idiot?" I think that's in the Greek. They upped it to seven times, and he said, "No, seventy times seven," meaning always. Then he said, "If your brother sins against you " He puts this phrase there: " and he repents " You have to have both to complete this forgiveness. God is not walking around with a grudge. God is walking around free, because he himself paid the penalty. He's free, and he wants everybody to come to the party, but we - 7 -
can choose not to. The addict can continue to do heroin and miss out on the family. That's all God has said to any of us. John: However much of you is in the wise category and however much of you is in the fool category and however much of you is in the evil category (and we're all in all three), I hope you come to the party. I hope you know God's forgiveness in your life and trust in him for your future. - 8 -