Episode 22: Tactics 09/27/2015 Speaker: Bob Ruff EPISODE DESCRIPTION In this episode, Bob analyzes Debbie's interview transcripts in an attempt to figure out what exactly Ritz and MacGillivary were up to. After that, Bob responds to recent Reddit activity. Today s episode of The Serial Dynasty is sponsored by Shaun T Fitness. Shaun T at ShaunTFitness.com is the one-stop shop for motivation. His website has exercise videos, podcasts, free music, apparel, and more, all to keep you as motivated as possible so you can make fitness a lifestyle. What I love about Shaun is his view on life in general. It s not just about defining your abs and your arms. It s about defining your life and trusting and believing in who you are. Shaun has been in the fitness profession for eighteen years and he s discovered that if we put the focus only on looking good, we can set ourselves up for disappointment. We have to combine the look with feeling good about ourselves. If you feel good, you can take that energy into helping you look good for YOU. Go to ShaunTFitness.com and see what it s all about. Hello everybody and welcome back to The Serial Dynasty. I want to thank you all for tuning in today and really quickly I want to say thank you to all of you who continue to donate to the GoFundMe campaign, Gofundme.com/TruthandJustice. We re well past the halfway point to our goal. We crossed $8,000 this week. The new studio building and been ordered and paid for and we have a delivery date of the first week of November. If we can reach our goal between now and then, when the studio is delivered, we ll have all the electrical and internet run outs and all of the equipment we need to finish with the soundproofing and insulating of the studio as we spring forward into the new Truth and Justice podcast.
Thank you all again so much for all of your help. And I want to take just this quick second to say to all of you that I love you all and I thank you so much for all of the emails. As our audience has grown and grown and grown and grown, the volume of emails that I m receiving is just going through the roof right now. This week I ve gotten a lot of emails that were just encouragements from listeners just telling me that they appreciated the show and appreciate what we re doing and I always try to take a minute and send a quick message back on those but I ve just been so swamped this week, I ve had so many of those emails. If you ve sent me one of those emails, or any email for that matter, and haven t heard back from me, I just want to tell you here, thank you so much. I appreciate everything that all of you are doing. Not just the words of encouragement but the ideas, and the theories, and the help with research. All of that is just making such a huge difference and contributing to this show. So to all of you listeners, thank you from the bottom of my heart for all of your support and your dedication to the pursuit of truth and justice. Also I have an announcement for you finally. Yesterday I was able to confirm a date and time to record an interview with Jim Trainum. So the interview with Jim Trainum will be featured on next week s episode of The Serial Dynasty. And regarding the interview, if any of you have any specific questions that you d like me to ask Jim, please send them along. I already have a list so I can t guarantee I ll get them in there but I would love to hear what you have say and the questions that you have for me to ask Jim. I will let you know that Jim has not continued to follow this case. He s starting to research a little bit but Jim works on all sorts of cases all the time doing all kinds of consulting work and teaching. So just keep that in mind when you're sending along any questions. As for today s episode, as I mentioned last week, the plan for today is to explore the police behavior during the investigation of the Hae Min Lee murder. So let s get right to that. [00:03:40] Introduction to Debbie s March 26, 1999 Transcript Over the past nearly a year now, we ve all been listening to Serial, Undisclosed, Serial Dynasty about the facts of this case. During that time, we ve heard many quotes from police interview notes, trial transcripts, etc. But as I was reading through the transcripts of a particular interview last week, something occurred to me. Most of the information that we have regarding the police tactics in this investigation come from police notes. And when I was reading this particular transcript it occurred to me that things don t seem to line up quite exactly the way I thought they should based on trial transcripts. And I couldn t figure out what was so different about this particular witness statement. And the difference is I was reading an actual transcript of the interview. Meaning, it was dictation, word for word, of the actual interview. Not just notes written by the police about the interview. I m sure most of you are already aware of this but just to make sure that we re crystal clear, the difference between interview notes and a transcript are exactly what I just said. The notes that we have for all of these interviews are simply the detective s thoughts or perspective on the actually interview. For example, I could be interviewing with the police and 2
say that something occurred in the evening and the police officer could write in the notes, occurred around 4:00 or 5:00 p.m. We just don t know. Those are the detective s notes, which does not necessarily indicate what the person being interviewed actually said. So my quest this week was to review the transcripts from the March 26, 1999 interview of Debbie. This interview was taped and transcribed and was conducted by Detectives Ritz and MacGillivary. This is a forty-seven page account of the actual word-forword conversation between the detectives and Debbie. And what made me really interested in the interview transcripts of an actual Woodlawn High School student was something that Laura said last week on the show. She mentioned that the police officers came to Woodlawn High School in the days following the arrest of Adnan. I spoke with Laura a little bit about this earlier this week and she says that they told them that their presence was to reassure the students that they had indeed arrested the correct person. Laura said that the police officers at points got rude with the students telling them that they are not to be questioning them doing their job. That they know that they have the right person. They confirmed to all the students who were asking that they had mountains of evidence proving that Adnan committed this crime. They told them that they had Adnan s fingerprints all over the crime scene. That they had DNA evidence and they were 100 percent convinced that Adnan was the culprit. At first, I just chalked this up to ego. The cops didn t like being questioned by these students. How dare they question their ability to do their job. But the more I thought about it and then after reading these transcripts, the thought occurred to me that what these detectives were doing was planting seeds. My theory is that they already knew that they had a very weak case. Remember, they had already interrogated Adnan for six hours at this point and got nothing out of him. They knew that they had no physical evidence. In my opinion, they had real concerns that Jay s testimony wouldn t hold up because they knew that they were the ones that created it. So they went to the high school and they started planting these seeds. Start convincing the students that they have the right guy. They implanted confirmation bias, or verification bias, into these students. And they didn t question them right then. They let this information marinate for nearly a month before they called Debbie in to question her. In a few weeks time, it s easy for anyone, especially a young, impressionable teenager to allow their mind to turn something someone told them into a reality. You hear the same thing repeated enough times over and over again and at some point, you just begin to believe it. So in my opinion, Detectives Ritz and MacGillivary planted their seed and then on March 26 th, they attempted to harvest it from Debbie. [00:07:50] Debbie s March 26, 1999 Interview As I mentioned, this transcript is forty-seven pages long and I m not going to read you a forty-seven page transcript. But there are a few sections from the transcript that I want you to hear. I want you to hear the methodology behind the interrogation techniques of Ritz and MacGillivary. First stop, motive. 3
On page eleven of the transcript, MacGillivary is questioning Debbie about the timeline as to when Hae and Adnan had broken up. Then MacGillivary comes in with this [Bob starts reading at correct me ]*: Now this is just a brief interjection into a conversation that really didn t relate to Christmas or him being a Muslim or anything like this. But what struck me about it is that MacGillivary is trying to lead Debbie into confirming that Adnan was so devoted to his religion that he wouldn t even exchange a Christmas present or go Christmas shopping. It s clear to me that MacGillivary knew that this is not something that Debbie had already said. He s careful to start his sentence with, Correct me if I m wrong. But it s also clear that Debbie never said this. There s no hesitation. There s no ums. Here immediate response is no. MacGillivary follows up with: When reading those few lines, you can see the methodology behind what MacGillivary is doing. Obviously, this is not something that Debbie misremembered. She wouldn t misremember that Adnan was upset because Hae wanted him to go Christmas shopping and he s a Muslim and he wouldn t do that sort of thing because her next response is, Yes, they exchanged Christmas gifts. So she absolutely knew that Adnan did go Christmas shopping and did exchange Christmas gifts. So there s no way that Debbie had told MacGillivary previously that Adnan s religion would have stopped him from doing this. This was a deceptive tactic on MacGillivary s part. Trying to implant a memory that was never there. Correct me if I m wrong, but the last time we spoke, you told me this. An event that never occurred. The next stop is Adnan s alibi. You saw in that last segment how quickly MacGillivary moved away from the Muslim angle. When Debbie answered with a sharp no and then followed it up with a contradictory statement to his statement, he quickly moves on. But listen to this next exchange. I m going to read you the back and forth that starts on page 25 of the transcript and ends on page 28. MacGillivary asks [Bob stops reading after Adnan that day ]: 4
Now let me pause for just a minute here. I want you to remember what she says here on page 25. I ll repeat it. I m positive just about then I saw Adnan that day. She s positive. So let me go back to the beginning of that sentence. [Bob starts reading from I m positive ] Now this was MacGillivary s question but Ritz cuts her off here. He says [Note: Bob reads You think you did twice in the exchange below.] Ritz follows up: 5
Now MacGillivary comes back in: Again, here, Debbie confirms: He cuts her off: Cuts her off again: 6
She says: Let me pause there for just a second to point something out. As a trained interrogator, it s obvious to me exactly what these detectives were doing. There s a little bit of a good cop/bad cop routine going on here. And what s happening is Debbie didn t give them the answer they wanted. In fact, her statement provided an alibi for their suspect. And a pretty solid alibi for their suspect. Now, this is her recollection of that day. And if you remember all the way back in Episode 2 of this show, I talked about how easy it is, especially with a young person, to manipulate their memory. What they're trying to do here is make her uncomfortable. They're hammering her with questions, they're acting skeptical, they're cutting her off when she s talking, they're making her nervous. And they're trying to implant some ideas in her head that can get her off of this testimony. That can get her to change her response. And one of the best methods for doing that, especially with a young person, is to make them uncomfortable enough that subconsciously, they will say what you want them to say. They pick up on your cues, they read between the lines, and they say what you want them to say so that you ll stop harassing them. They want to give you what you want. So in my opinion, that s what s going on here. So let me continue. Remember she had said previously there was a certain counselor everyone had. MacGillivary now asks, Who was that? Debbie says: 7
Okay, now you can read from that statement, at this point, Debbie is starting to get a little flustered. She s getting uncomfortable. In that one statement, there s two on the transcripts where it says inaudible, where she s mumbling and you can t hear her. It s um every other word. You ve seen those increase over the last two pages. So now MacGillivary pounces back in. Now he s asked her about who the counselor was, she went through this whole thing, talked about all the different counselors. The most logical follow-up question to that if I was interviewing would be, Which counselor did you speak to that day? So that I can go speak to that counselor and confirm this. But MacGillivary s follow-up goes a very different direction. He can see that she s on the ropes, she s rambling, she s nervous, and he follows up with: Debbie: Then right then Ritz cuts in: And then they stop the tape. I found this tape stop to be a little odd or actually, very obvious, what they were doing. At the point here when they stop the tape, they are almost exactly 35 minutes into the interview. So since they're saying there s one minute left on the tape that would mean this would be about a 70 minute tape, if you remember back in the 90s when we used cassette tapes. No I don't know exactly what type of tape the detectives were using for this interview, but as I recall, there were two options for audio cassette tapes. You could buy a 60-minute tape or a 90-minute tape. So at 35 minutes, that would mean that this was 75-minute tape because he said there was one minute left on the side. I did some research and didn t find any evidence that there was ever such a thing as a 70 or 75-minute cassette tape. It wasn t a 60-minute tape because they d gone beyond 30 8
minutes. So my assumption is that this was a 90-minute tape. Which would mean there was at least ten minutes of recording space left on that side of the tape when Ritz interjects and says it s time to flip it over. So why stop it right then? Well it could be for a couple of reasons, or both. The most obvious reason, to me, was the point of the conversation they had reached at this point. They had managed to shift Debbie s statement all the way from her statement at the beginning that she was positive that she saw Adnan in the guidance counselor s office at 2:45, all the way till four pages of this transcript later where they get this final question, Could you be mistaken? She says, Possibly. Stop the tape. By stopping the tape, this gave the detectives a few minutes to talk to Debbie off record. Without being recorded. They knew they had her on the ropes at this point. They had moved her from being positive to being possibly mistaken. So they shut the tape off and eleven minutes later they turn it back on. As soon as they turn it back on, Detective MacGillivary follows up with this [Bob starts with Um, we were ]: Debbie responds. It says, inaudible so she s mumbling: And then, boom, they move on to the next topic where MacGillivary asks if Debbie knows what Adnan s fourth period class was. So if you re attending the school of how to be a crooked, manipulative detective, that is a great lesson. For the rest of us that strive to learn proper interrogation techniques, this was a lesson in what not to do if you want to get the truth out of your witness. The next section I want to read is a brief example of another occurrence of MacGillivary moving Debbie off of a positive statement to being not so sure. MacGillivary asks: 9
Debbie: Now, this is a mild example but I just want to point out that this is throughout this interview. If you go online and read these transcripts, the entire interview is like this. She says something they don t like, they move her into a position of saying she s not sure. In this case, she answered twice. Did he go home to change? No. Are you sure? No, he did not do that. That you re aware of. Uh huh. And this is more of what I was discussing earlier how the tendency of people being interviewed by the police is to figure out what it takes to please them and give them what they're looking for. It s similar to Pavlov s dog. Throughout this interview, the detectives are training Debbie. If you say you agree with us, or if you just say you re not sure, we ll move on and we ll stop harassing you. And as the interview goes on, she does it more and more and more. She makes a statement. They bring her off the statement to a point where she s unclear and then they move on. As you continue on through the transcripts, you see a number of things that Debbie brings up that the detectives don t want to talk about. She mentions Takara, she mentions Don, and the detectives quickly move away from that. Here s a conversation from page 32 of the transcript. MacGillivary asks: Now if MacGillivary is actually trying to figure out what happened. Figure out where Hae went. Figure out who might have been with her. He would be asking more questions about Takera. He would be wanting to know who she is. Can he speak to her. Those would be his follow-ups. He just got a statement from someone who said, The last person to ask her 10
for a ride was Takera. And this is how MacGillivary responds. Basically, he ignores the Takera statement. He says: Again, he s got her on the fence. She s coming with the ums and the mumbling. Boom, right back to Adnan. MacGillivary s follow-up: He completely ignores her statement about Takera. Starts to push her and question her about whether or not she even saw Haw leave the lot. She gets uncomfortable and then, bam, right back to Adnan. Effectively implanting more confirmation bias into Debbie. Now we re moved on to page 41 of the transcript. This is where Debbie brings up Don again. And they're asking about the email that she sent that you all have heard about in the phone conversation. MacGillivary asks: And once again, immediately: 11
As you can see again, no concern with anybody but Adnan. She s talking about Don. She s talking about the phone conversation with him and then, bam, immediately right back to Adnan. Now, obviously, he s investigating Adnan. He s already arrested Adnan. At this point, Adnan had been locked up for three weeks. But MacGillivary makes no attempt to get any further information about a seven-hour conversation with Don. As soon as the conversation turned to, Don said he thinks Adnan s involved, we re right back to Adnan. And again, Don s off the hook. Now next I want to present some evidence that my theory about the police planting seeds and creating confirmation bias amongst all of these witnesses is evident on page 43 of the transcript. Debbie says: And this is the point to really tune in. Here s Debbie s response: MacGillivary finishes his sentence: So right there in that interview, you can get a really good idea of where any witness is coming from, especially witnesses regarding all the circumstantial evidence. How Adnan was acting. What he was saying. What he was doing. If it seemed weird or if it seemed fake. All of these students were operating of the confirmation bias that was implanted by these police officers. Just like Debbie had said to the cops. She thought that Adnan was really upset just like everyone else. That he was in shock. And she said she doesn t necessarily think that 12
anymore because the police arrested him so they must have had a reason to arrest him. So he must be involved. The presumption of guilt towards Adnan is stemmed from the police officers arresting Adnan and telling them that they had the right person. Now there s one more interesting thing that I found in this interview with Debbie and it was back towards the beginning of the interview. On page six of the transcript, MacGillivary is asking Debbie if she knows of the places where Adnan and Hae have had sex. MacGillivary asks: Now, think for a minute about that response. Debbie just gave them exactly what they were looking for. She mentioned a park and she said they did it in his car in parking lots. Now remember when this interview is taking place. This is March 26 th. Adnan has already been arrested. Jay has already been interviewed multiple times. They're just a couple of weeks away from Adnan s indictment. They ve already set their narrative that Hae was murdered in the Best Buy parking lot and her body dumped in Leakin Park. So I want you to ask yourself for a minute, what would be the most obvious follow-up question? Mine would be, Do you know which parking lots they used to have sex in? But let me read you MacGillivary s follow-up question. So, again, Debbie says that they have done it in parks, parking lots, in the car. And MacGillivary s follow-up: So, again, as we discussed earlier, they get her from a solid no and try to get her off of that but she still follows up with no. As far as she knows, they ve never done it in a hotel. MacGillivary moves on, he starts to ask about some other things, and then on page 8, Ritz interjects. He asks Debbie: 13
I ve read this interview several times and last week when I was reading it, this series of questions jumped out at me. Why in the hell are both Ritz and MacGillivary asking Debbie specifically about a hotel? It makes zero sense. As you can see from the rest of the interview, when they don t get the answer that they want, they press her and try to change her answer to get the answer that they want. And they hone in on anything that is consistent with their narrative of how Adnan killed Hae. Yet in this one instance, and it s the only time throughout this entire forty-seven page interview where they seem to be honing in on something that has nothing to do with their narrative, Debbie gave them the answer that they wanted. And instead of continuing and following up with which parking lot it was in, which park they might have went to, they immediately jump in with a hotel. Why would they say anything about a hotel if she didn t mention a hotel? And a hotel has nothing to do with their narrative and has never been any part of any of Jay s testimony. Why would they be asking about a hotel? So I thought it was odd the first time when MacGillivary said it. But when three pages later, Ritz interjects to ask her again about a hotel, that s what really got my attention. According to the State s case and according to Jay s testimony, they don t want Debbie to say anything about a hotel. Her saying anything about a hotel is going to do nothing but mess up their case. But they ask her not once, but twice. When Ritz interjects again, What about a hotel? Did they tell you anything about a hotel? She says, No. He continues to follow up, Hae didn t tell you? No. What about Adnan, did he tell you about a hotel? No. Why are these detectives wondering about a hotel? Why are these detectives so interested in whether or not Hae and Adnan had sex in hotel when their theory of the case is that she was murdered in a Best Buy parking lot? My theory, they learned something about a hotel. There was a tip. There was a call. There was a rumor. Something that put Hae at a hotel on the afternoon of January 13, 1999 and it didn t fit their narrative. And they needed to put Adnan at that hotel. And when Debbie didn t give them what they were looking for, they round-filed it, just like all the other evidence that didn t fit their case and they preceded on with their narrative. 14
[00:31:28] Sponsor: Shaun T Fitness Before we move on with the listener emails segment of the program, I want to give this quick shout out to our sponsor. If any of you are wondering, I m still going strong with my T25 program. I just finished up week four of the Beta program today. I ve got one more week and then I move on to the Gamma. And once again, I m amazed that I m able to breeze through these Beta workouts, sweating to death and exhausted, but still able to breathe and feeling good. These same workouts that just four weeks ago, I could barely make it through. I am loving the stair-step process of this workout and it s the case with all of Shaun s workouts. Where you start with a challenge that seems impossible and you keep pushing through and following the schedule and following the plan and it gets easier and easier and easier. And as soon as you get to the point where you re not needing to push yourself any harder to finish that workout, we move up to the next level and we start the process over again. And you get stronger and faster and healthier every single week. Now I also want to tell you that Shaun is not only improving my physical health. But his new podcast, Trust and Believe, is really, honestly helping with my mental health right now. I m going through a lot of potential life changes right now with everything going on at my work and this podcast and family. There s a lot of hard decisions that I have to make. But when I ve listened to the first three episodes of Trust and Believe, I feel like Shaun is speaking directly to me. There the words of encouragement and determination that I need. It seems like daily I m faced with some really incredibly difficult decisions over the past several weeks and this week s episode of Trust and Believe Decisions was just the message that I needed to hear. Shaun continues to be an inspiration for me personally and if you listen in to this week s episode, you ll also get to hear Shaun s husband, Scott, who does a really great job on the podcast this week. Check out Shaun T s podcast, Trust and Believe, and don t forget that Shaun T s new apparel line is finally live. You can check out the podcast, the apparel, the workout programs, and anything motivational you need at ShaunTFitness.com. And dig deeper. [00:33:35] Email from Alice Regarding Reddit Posts For this week s listener email segment, I only have one email for you and that s because it s going to take a little bit of time to answer it. This email comes from Alice. The subject line, New lividity/kristi info. Alice writes**: Hi Bob, I love your podcast, got to say that first. I try and follow what s going on with this case with your podcast and Undisclosed. Sometimes I go on Reddit even though I know it s a bad idea. 15
Anyway, today there are loads of threads claiming they ve got Adnan now. And also some horrible things about the makers of Undisclosed. Yuck. With alleged new burial scene photos which match Jay s testimony and the lividity patterns. They're also saying that Kristi remembered the 13 th as Stephanie s birthday and therefore her testimony is accurate. I know far, far better than to trust someone on Reddit who s claimed to see photos but won t give them out. But I still find the two questions troubling. Do you know anything about them? Thanks, Alice Thank you, Alice, for that email and, yes, I've been made aware of those Reddit posts this week. That s actually why I m recording, and I guess you guys don t know that, but I m recording on Friday rather than my usual Thursday night because as these things were coming out, I ve had to adjust the agenda for the show this week to address them. For those of you that don t do Reddit, and I m in that camp unless my listeners draw me there to look at something specific, there has been a lot of activity there this week. The people who are affectionately known as guilters are claiming that they ve dropped three bombshells this week that not only prove Adnan to be guilty but also prove Rabia, Susan, and Colin to be liars. As I continue to approach this show and this investigation through unbiased eyes, there were enough listeners who directed me to these posts that I took the time to go through them and read them. And I ll address them here one at a time. First I ll address the Kristi situation. Kristi, or as you might remember her, not-herreal-name-cathy, who claims that Jay and Adnan came to her house on the night of the 13 th, that Adnan was acting weird and not speaking, saying something about wanting to know how to get rid of a high. He got a phone call, acted weird, and they left. You ll also remember that several months ago, the Undisclosed team discovered that it s very possible that Kristi has the wrong day. One of the reasons for this was because she told the police specifically that the day that Jay and Adnan came over was a day where she was at a conference for her school program. Kristi attended UMBC and she says at the beginning of her interview that the reason she remembers that was the day was because she was at a conference for her internship from 9:00-4:30 p.m. The Undisclosed team through some listeners were able to find conference schedules for UMBC from back in 1999 and determined that there were no conferences relevant to her major on January 13, 1999. But there was however, a conference on January 22, 1999. So the Undisclosed team based on that and several other factors, and you ll have to go back and listen to Undisclosed Episode 1 to hear all the reasons why, I m not going to recap all of them. They theorized that the day that Kristi was thinking about was actually January 22, 1999. So, here s the huge bombshell. 16
During the interview, MacGillivary asks Kristi, Okay, and was there any conversation? And Kristi responds, Um, a little bit like it s Stephanie s birthday and she s Jay s girlfriend and um, it s small talk. It s not. I mean we basically watched TV. Okay, so as I m sure all of you are aware, January 13 th is Stephanie s birthday. So the claim that s being made on Reddit was that Kristi did indicate that January 13 th was the day they were there because she remembered it was Stephanie s birthday. And the dark sub of dude brahs have been high-fiving each other all week because they finally got the Undisclosed team. They called them liars and cheaters and all sorts of things that I won t even repeat on this podcast. Because they didn t disclose the full version of this transcript for people to see that she said that. So what s my take on it? Let me preface that by saying that I've never really talked much about the Kristi trip because I think it s completely irrelevant. Whether Jay and Adnan were at Kristi s that night or not doesn t matter at all to this case. So let me start this conversation by saying, even if Kristi is right and they were there that day, I don t see anyway how that makes Adnan any less guilty or any less innocent than he already was. Depending on your point of view. Because he happened to be at someone s house. Now the claim is that Kristi noticed that he was being noticeably strange. And she does say that. If you read the transcripts of that interview, there s a lot of things that were strange about that interview. So going back to the beginning of the interview, MacGillivary s asking about what she was doing on the 13 th. He says: So one thing you ll notice if you read these transcripts is that Kristi says she never met Adnan. She wasn t introduced to Adnan and Adnan never spoke other than asking how to get rid of a high. So here s MacGillivary: 17
Now I m putting those pauses in there because in the transcript, it actually has the dot-dot-dot after these sentences. So you remember Undisclosed s tap, tap, tap episode? This reads to me as though MacGillivary is doing something similar here. Where he s leading her. She says, I don t know where I heard the name. He s like, Was it [extends word for effect] through [extends word for effect] Jay [extends word for effect]? Then Kristi says: She jumps in again: So then later in the conversation, MacGillivary asks [Bob starts reading at You indicated ]: And that s when MacGillivary says: She goes on to say that Adnan was slumped over, really quiet, acting weird. The only thing he said was, How do you get rid of a high. And then she describes Adnan answering the phone when the phone call came in. Now remember Jay s testimony is that the call that they got was from Hae s brother. He says he got a call while at Kristi s from Hae s brother asking where Hae is. It s the only call he describes while he s there. Kristi recounts this: 18
MacGillivary asked her if Adnan was high. She said that she assumed so because he asked about how to get rid of a high. And she says [Bob begins with I m not clear ]: So as I m reading this, I m trying to look through it through objective eyes. Is it possible Kristi has the right day? Maybe, maybe not. I mean, she does say it was Stephanie s birthday. But she also says she was at a conference that doesn t appear to have happened on that day. So I guess you have to take which parts of the testimony you want to believe. So then I start to think, what if it was that day? What does that mean? Well, again, it s a matter of perspective. If you look at this through the lens of Adnan just killed his girlfriend and he gets really high and he goes to this person s house and he s sitting there acting weird, says he wants to get rid of his high. He has to go do something important and he wants to get rid of the high to do whatever this important thing was. Was that important thing that he had to go bury a body? And he wanted to be sober when he buried the body? I suppose that s a possibility. But what would make more sense to me is I have to go see my father at the mosque and I m high. It s really important, I need to get rid of this high. How do I get rid of this? I have to go to the mosque. To me, that seems to be the more logical explanation. But you can consider it either way. So then there s this phone call. Kristi says he s asking, What am I supposed to do? What am I going to do? What am I going to say? And he s freaking out and he s leaving and he s saying all this to the person on the other end of the phone. Kristi doesn t know who s on the other end of the phone. Jay s testimony is that that person who called was actually Hae s brother. So if Kristi has the right day, that s a really, really strange response to your exgirlfriend s brother calling you asking where your ex-girlfriend is. That you would say to her brother, What am I going to do? What am I going to say? What if they come talk to me? Seems like an odd response to her brother. So maybe Kristi s right and Jay s wrong. Who knows? So then you remember Kristi talks about Adnan and Jay during the conversation getting up and rushing out. And she thought it was so weird that they were sitting out in their car, just not doing anything. And it was a really long time. And it was just weird they were sitting there, right? So this is the actual transcript after Kristi says that they left and went outside. MacGillivary asks: 19
[Note: some of transcript skipped.] [Bob stops reading after Right. ] So one interesting thing out of these transcripts being posted is that this whole time we ve heard this story from Kristi about how weird it was and her watching out the window of them sitting in this car for a long time before they drove off. When you read the actual transcripts, she said it was about a minute. She has no idea if it was actually them. It was dark outside. She just assumed that the car that was parked outside of her house was Adnan s and that Jay and Adnan were in it. When in fact, she couldn t see the car and she had no idea what Adnan drove or even if they drove there. Not that it s necessarily here nor there. Just adds to the weirdness of this whole Kristi situation. 20
So what does all this mean? Is this the big bombshell that Susan and Colin and Rabia are horrible liars and deceitful because they theorize that maybe January 13 th wasn t the day that Kristi was recalling and supported that with evidence? Well, like I said, I believe the entire Kristi trip is a red herring anyway. It was at a time when Adnan says that he would have been with Jay, right after track practice, when Jay would have picked him up. That they smoked some weed, they got some food, before they went to the mosque. This is all Adnan s testimony. So Kristi s testimony actually corroborates Adnan s testimony if she has the right day. If she doesn t have the right day, then it really doesn t matter. The incriminating part was that he was acting so weird and his phone conversation was so strange. But you could theorize that acting weird and asking about getting rid of a high could be attributed to the fact that he just murdered somebody and he wanted to be sober when he buried the body. Personally, my theory is that the reason that he was concerned was because he was high and if it was that day, he had to go to the mosque. He didn t want to go to the mosque high and he couldn t shake the high. I certainly don t think that it was Hae s brother on the phone as Jay testifies. If it was January 13 th then that could have been the call from Aisha telling him that the police had called her and that they were looking for Adnan to ask him where Hae s at. Now remember, all of the students, not just Adnan, didn t think anything about Hae being missing. They just thought she was going to be in trouble. That she ran off with her boyfriend or whatever. We ve heard testimony from Laura and Krista, the journal records from Becky and Debbie, no one was really concerned. So if this was the correct day and that call was Aisha calling letting him know the police were about to call, I think it makes perfect sense that Adnan, who s sitting there so high he can barely sit up, just finds out the police are about to call him, that he d be freaking out about that. So again, not much of a bombshell here. But the other piece of this is that if this testimony is accurate and that really was January 13 th, then it just further destroys Jay s testimony because Kristi s statement conflicts with Jay s statement about the color of the clothes, whether he changed clothes when he came and left, the time he returned that night with Jenn. It s all over the place. Nothing lines up. But really more importantly than all of this, which was the true purpose of this show today, was to show the type of investigation these detectives were actually doing. It s indicated in the transcripts, MacGillivary refers to the conversations they had before they started recording the interview. So once again, we have an unrecorded pre-interview that is undocumented before this interview occurred. So what I was curious about was what did Kristi say about that day when she didn t have Ritz and MacGillivary standing in front of her prompting her? This is what she said at trial: 21
Gutierrez: And on the day, a month later, when that day came up in conversation, did you remember that it was the 13 th of January? Kristi: I don t think I remember the specific date, no. Gutierrez: Somebody told you that date, did they not? Kristi: I think it was Detective MacGillivary. Gutierrez: Detective MacGillivary. You didn t have any independent recollection of your own that was the day that this person came with Jay occurred actually on the 13 th? Kristi: No, I don t think so. So again, what we re always trying to do here is to figure out the difference between what the witnesses actually remembered and actually thought compared to what they said or were documented to say when the police were interviewing them. And as you can see, there s quite a difference in Kristi s testimony when she s at trial, under oath, without Ritz and MacGillivary there to prompt her. So the next big bombshell this week by the guilters on Reddit was the Nisha call. This week, a Redditer posted Nisha s police interview notes. Their claim is that in the interview notes, it clearly indicates that Nisha was remembering that phone call where Jay and Adnan were on the phone with her specifically on January 13 th. And this is why. Let me read to you from the notes. Now remember, this is not a transcript. These are the notes that the detectives were taking during the interview. This is not what Nisha actually said word for word. It s just their notes. They say: 22
And then there s an indent and two asterisks and it says: That section was supposedly the big bombshell. Now, I ll be honest with you. I don't know exactly what that means. It s not written along with all the other notes, right in line as they were writing down things that she said. That line is indented, they put two stars next to it. I read it as the way I write my interview notes when I m handwriting them where if there s something that I picked up from what they said it was my interpretation, I always make a little star and then write out whatever it was. And that s just to indicate to me for when I actually type out my report that this is not something they said. That s just something that I took out of what they said. I don't know if that s the case here. I ran it by one of the state police detectives that were in my office the other day and he said he s not sure either. Everybody has their own way of writing things. Different departments have different types of shorthand. He couldn t be sure. He said his assumption would be that that s probably something the detective inferred from something that she had said. But we don t know for sure. She goes on to say: 23
So, Alice, and many of you other listeners, to answer your question. That was the big Nisha call bombshell. And the way that it s being spawned on Reddit, is that this clearly indicates that she remembered this day was on January 13 th. That it wasn t late in the evening, it could have been the afternoon. Maybe she misremembered saying afternoon or later on, 4:00 or 5:00. And that once again, the Undisclosed team are a bunch of lying, deceptive bastards. Is basically what s going on Reddit right now. But the fact is, these interview notes don t tell us anything at all. Again, they're notes. They're not transcripts. These are the notes that these detectives were taking when interviewing Nisha. This was their take on what she said. And even if that, even if everything they put down here, is exactly what was said, she still says late afternoon, 4:00 or 5:00. She still says that Adnan was going to visit Jay at his store. Remember that the Nisha call does not line up with Jay s own testimony. That he said the call came in after he left Jenn s house, which was at 3:40 and it was after he called Patrick, which was at 3:59. There s no way that it could have happened until after 4:00. Yet, the Nisha call occurred at 3:32. There s a million reasons why the Nisha call does not make any sense for Adnan to have made that call. And you can go back through some of my episodes and Undisclosed episodes, read transcripts, do anything you want. There was a million reasons why the Nisha call was not that 3:32 call. But again, continuing with the theme of the show today. These are the detectives notes where they have this double asterisk where they say, Day or two after he got the cell phone. But once again, I would like to hear Nisha in her own words describe the one time that she ever talked to Jay and Adnan on the phone at the same time. Here s Nisha from trial: Nisha: Um, it s a little hard to recall but I remember him telling me that Jay invited him over to um a video store that he worked at and he basically, well Adnan walked in with his cell phone and then he said, like he told me to speak with Jay and I was like okay, cause Jay wanted to say hi. So I said hi to Jay and that s all I can really recall. Urick: About what time of day did that occur? Nisha: I would think towards the evening, but I can t be exactly sure. So this must be another one of those things that these guilters on Reddit choose to ignore. I guess to them, a double asterisked, indented line, on the notes that the detective wrote that say, Day or two after he got the cell phone, overrides everything else that Jay said, everything else that Nisha said, all of the call log history. For example, in those notes supposedly Nisha told the police that Adnan said he would call her the next day. He did not call her that evening, he didn t call her until the next day. But if you look at Adnan s phone records, there was that 3:32 call and then he did call Nisha again at 9:01 p.m. and again at 9:56 p.m. that night. These are all things we re supposed to ignore because that one line is the big bombshell. Nice work, guys. 24
Now, the next thing that I want to address is this lividity issue claim. And I want to put out a forewarning: If you're offended by me being extremely pissed and hearing foul language, I would recommend you shut this episode off right now. Because things are about to get ugly. Because I am absolutely furious about what this jackass, xtrialatty, or whatever he calls himself on Reddit, has done. This worthless, lying, piece of shit put a post on Reddit claiming that he has obtained copies of the burial photos and photos of the disinterment of Hae s body. His Reddit username is X-T-R-I-A-L-A-T-T-Y. He claims to be a lawyer. However, I believe he s most likely some jackass who lives in his mother s basement because for a trial attorney, he sure does have a lot of time to post on Reddit. So he claims he s obtained copies of these burial photos and he s done a couple of things with them. First and foremost, he claims that he s analyzed these photos and he made computer-generated images of the position of Hae s body, that in his professional opinion, prove that the lividity evidence is consistent with a 7:00 burial. Furthermore, he has made completely unwarranted attacks against Susan Simpson, Rabia Chaudry, and Colin Miller. And it is absolutely disgusting. This man is a disgusting, lying pig. One of two things has happened here: either he s completely lying and he has never seen the burial photos and has made all of this up based on things he s seen written. And to be honest with you, I hope that s what s actually happened. Because the second option is a thousand times worse. And it s what I think actually happened The second option is that he has somehow managed to obtain these burial photos and has taken it upon himself to mount a campaign to smear the credibility of the people that are working their asses off to try to solve this case and try to find justice for both Hae and Adnan, and for everybody else that s been involved in this case, whose lives have been ruined by these asshole cops and prosecutor. He has completely 100 percent misrepresented the evidence. It just so happens that I do have copies of these burial photos. I got copies of them so that I could pass them along to Jim Clemente, the FBI profiler, who we ll be interviewing here in a couple of weeks because he needed them in order to determine an actual profile. There was no way he could do it without seeing the actual burial site. I ve never mentioned that I had them because the only reason they were in my possession was so I could send them to Jim. Now, that being said, I forwarded Extra Latte s depiction of the burial scene to Jim Clemente so when he comes on this show, if you don t want to believe me, you can hear Jim s take on the comparison of the actual burial photos to the computer animation that Extra Latte put together. But for now, I m going to describe to you the position of Hae s body and I deeply apologize for the graphic nature of this. But at this point, these assholes, and I include in that Extra Latte, Seamus_Duncan, jjungshc, or whatever his name is. And at this point, I ll throw Ann B into that lot too and I ll explain why in a minute. They need to be exposed for the deception that they are creating. 25
In xtrialatty, or Extra Latte, or whatever the hell his name is, in his computergenerated images of Hae s body, he shows her laying on her right side with her right hip on the ground and her left hip pointed up. He shows her left arm bent behind her back and he shows her right arm laying beside the right side of her body, like with her hand down by her buttocks region. And her upper torso completely twisted so her chest and her face are laying flat against the ground. And this is how he explains the lividity patterns. This is an absolute lie and misrepresentation of the position of Hae s body when she was found and disinterred. The most notable change was the position of her right arm. I m going to describe a position to you to try to give you a better picture in your mind of how Hae s body was situated. So if you re not driving and you re in an open space where you can do this, while you re listening to this, lay on the ground on your right hip, so your left hip is pointed up in the air. Your right leg is straight. Your left leg is bent at the hip and the knee, so your knee towards your chest at about a 45 degree angle. So your left foot is resting about on your right calf. Now the way that her upper body was situated, take your left arm and bend it behind your back. So at about the waist, bend your left arm behind your back. Now, here s the huge difference between what this asshole has put on Reddit and reality. Take your right arm, put it out in front of you, so your right shoulder is on the ground. Your right elbow is also on the ground and extend your hand upward so your right hand is about twelve inches away from your face. So left arm behind you, right arm in front of you. Bend at a 90 degree angle so your hand is in front of your face. That is the way that Hae s body was positioned in the grave. He s made claims that there s more pictures than what Rabia and Susan and the Undisclosed team have obtained. There were more pictures that weren t shown to Dr. Hlavaty. That the pictures they had were mid-disinterment and that s why they were confused. There s this whole list of bullshit as to why he knows better than what they know. But here s the truth of the matter. In the grave, before disinterment began, before anything was touched, before a leaf was moved, there are pictures where Hae s right hand is sticking out of the ground in front of her face. There was a rock placed on her hand to try to hold it down. And in the photos, before anything is touched, her right hand is sticking up there. And even with the rock, you can see her fingers sticking out on the other side of the rock. To try to represent this as though her right arm was behind her back under her body and she was twisted is an absolute, purposeful lie. It is a lie that was either created after seeing the photos and purposely lying about them or the entire thing was made up and this guy has never actually seen the photos. And the reasoning behind why he would do this, other than an attempt to completely trash the Undisclosed team, is they ve torn apart the State s case and proven beyond a shadow of doubt that Adnan Syed is innocent of this crime. The only other reason that I can think of besides doing that and your own personal fucked up ego is that you're such a sick, morbid bastard that you're trying to bait them into posting these photos. Which I hope to God will never happen. 26
And I have lost any shred of respect I ever had for Ann Brocklehurst after reading her response on Reddit that says this: I have never been particularly interested in the lividity issue and would have been quite happy just to take xtrialatty s assessment without question. The photos happened to be included in another document I received. As a result, I am able to confirm. So again, these assholes are either distributing these photos around to where they ended up in Ann s lap, who is lying through her fucking teeth, confirming that this depiction is accurate or she s just lying through her teeth about ever having seen them. And I find it amazing that Ann has the nerve to attack me or Undisclosed or anybody else for not having sources that she thinks are qualified enough or verified enough to be spoken on the air. But she has no problem talking about her secret sources that she can t disclose and just taking xtrialatty, or whatever his Reddit username is, at his word without seeing photos. I am absolutely disgusted by everything these people are doing. And anything you have ever read from any single one of those people that I ve mentioned, remember this moment. Because this is what they are doing. They don t give a shit about finding the truth. They don t care about justice. The only thing they care about is being right. And they decided a long time ago that Adnan was guilty and dammit, they will do anything in their power to prove that they're right. Every single one of you disgust me. [01:01:50] Credits Thank you to Jonny Rose of Slightly Subversive Music for creating all the music for the show. Thank you to Tate Krupa for creating our logo. Thank you to Jill from Pod Transcription for generating all of our transcripts. Thank you to Shaun T at Shaun T Fitness for funding the program. And thank you to all of you for listening, contributing, and being a part of this movement. And a special thank you to all of you again for contributing to the GoFundMe fund to help launch us into the next chapter of the Truth and Justice podcast. And again if you re interested in contributing and you d like to do so, go to GoFundMe.com/TruthandJustice or go to SerialDynasty.com and click the GoFundMe link. Remember, next week I m interviewing Jim Trainum and if you have questions for Jim, please email them to me at theories@serialdynasty.com. And as always, you re always more than welcome to email me any of your thoughts or theories to the same email address. You can catch me on Twitter @SerialDynasty and for Facebook users, just go to The Serial Dynasty Facebook page. 27
Thank you again for taking the time to listen today. I m signing off and until next week, this has been The Serial Dynasty. [01:05:05] End of Episode Transcription by * Portions of the original transcript with Debbie and Kristi have been inserted when Bob is reading from the transcript. ** Emails are transcribed from the audio and may not match original emails. 28