David Maseko Abstract David Maseko was born in 1936. This interview dips into his life and his time in the trade unions from the early 1970s until he retired. Maseko was introduced to trade unions through the Urban Training Project (UTP) where workers would gather on Sundays to be trained on trade unionism. Maseko never had the opportunity to go to school. He worked at various factories including Pilkington and Kelloggs, and became a key recruiter of workers into the unions and a chairperson. He skims the history of trade unions from the 1970s, mentions various splits that took place in different trade unions and how the formation of Cosatu brought the different factions together and grew bigger trade unions with the policy of one union one industry. He touches on harassment by the boers and the police and how they dealt with this. The document is translated from Zulu to English: Facilitator: This is an interview with Baba David Maseko, we are at Kwa- Thema Springs, the date is 29 June 2010. The interview is done by Brown Maaba. Thanks Baba for making the time to talk to me about unions. Can you please tell me where were you born, raised, your parents, who they were and how did you eventually get involved with unions? Respondent: I was born in Witbank, when we left I was still baby, after birth and came to Springs in Pimville. When I arrived there, I used to herd cattle which belonged to a white man in Pimville. We then moved to the township. From there we moved again to Phelandaba in Kempton Park. I did not go to school, I used to just work for white people, looking after their livestock. My father is David Maseko, I was named after him, my mother s name is Ntombana Mathunda. 1 of 14
We then left the place again and went to Kempton Park in Thembisa, in a rural community, we returned back to Pimville. I started working at Sappi, I worked, left and got a job at Printing Toll, this company had liaison committees and works committees at the time. The liaison committees and the works committees did not treat us well, I then went to work for UTP (Urban Training Project) in Johannesburg. At UTP this is where we were taught about unions, we were taught by Douwes-Dekker and Eric Taycke they were from Wits. We attended a course whereby we were taught what unions are and how they operate. I came back, I was an organiser, we organised the formation of unions. We were organising everywhere, I was going all over the country, Durban, Cape Town, we were flown all over the place as an organisational drive. The first unions I assisted with forming was the Glass and Allied Workers Union (GAWU), Sweet Food and Allied Workers Union (SFAWU), Building Construction and Allied Workers Union (BCAWU). After the unions were formed, when attending the course, we realised that the government may not approve the unions but if we come up with a federation. Kabini (Calvin Nkabinde?) and Skates Sikhakhane, they went overseas, they had differences on their way back home Facilitator: what were the differences about? Respondent: Skates was saying to Calvin that you will be the secretary and I will be the chairperson, then Calvin said let the people choose the leaders not us. They were advanced politically and about unions. Calvin got the unions together after the federation was formed. MAWU used to exist but they went their separate ways, then UMMAWOSA was formed. UMMAWOSA had people like Godongwana, MAWU had Mayekiso and 2 of 14
Alec Erwin and Bernie Fanaroff. We formed FOSATU the federation after that we realised that the government will not accept it. We came back to the table to negotiate, we formed another union, already we knew how to connect with the workers, the majority of the community had no knowledge about unions. There was a community committee called IRAP??, we carried on with it but it did not grow if it had grown we would have been arrested. We then formed SANCO which brought the communities together. There were consumer boycotts, stay aways all that kind of thing. We later realised that FOSATU is not strong enough, then other federations wanted to join, we collected all the federations and had one federations. All the federations were brought together, we had one federation. We now had to meet with people like Ramaphosa, Mufamadi from GAWU, we had to get all the federations. It was difficult to destroy the federations in order to belong to one body. I worked hard, day and night organising and connecting the federations. I managed to get them together. I found Ramaphosa who at the time was under UTP, we got him to join us. MAWU was also part of us now, MAWU (interruption) it was led by Alec Erwin and Bernie Fanaroff, the secretary for Mayekiso. Mayekiso tried to work hard to get Bernie Fanaroff to join the federation. At last.., now we had UMMAWOSA because MAWU was split. UMMAWOSA was led by Zulu and Gogongwana. We realised that the federation we are building, one union, one industry. FAWU and Food and Canning had to be destroyed so that there s one union. We worked hard. When I was still at UTP, the strongest person was Chris Dlamini, Chris Dlamini was strong in the unions and was also political. After we got hold of Chris Dlamini, he met with Ramaphosa, the unions were becoming stronger on politics. Then there was a problem, we were asking ourselves what would happen 3 of 14
if the federation is taken to ANC, people like Lekota and David came to encourage us to join UDF, I refused. I knew that if the government stamps on them they will also stamp on unions. We asked people to join as individuals not under the umbrella of their union. Independent unions were independent. We knew that if the government decides to ban the unions he will ban them on. When COSATU was formed, it was a political union, all the leaders had to be clear on politics. We nominated Chris Dlamini, the secretary was Cyril Ramaphosa, we are in the process of building the union. Ramaphosa decided to remain with his union, we now had a problem we had to find someone who also understood politics. We nominated Jay Naidoo. Another problem arose, Jay Naidoo and Chris Dlamini are both in FAWU, the two of them are from the same union, what will we say to the people, it would have seemed as if it is a FAWU federation. We got together and analysed the situation. The biggest union at the time was the union of the mines, we then nominated Elijah Barayi was then nominated as the president and Chris his vice president. Barayi became the president and Chris the vice. We launched the union in Natal. Now, General and Allied Workers Union, they were a strong federation politically therefore we could not leave it behind because this can become a problem for us. Mufamadi was appointed as Jay Naidoo s assistant. That is how COSATU was formed to date. Facilitator: let us go back a little baba. You said you came from Witbank to live in Pimville? Respondent: yes 4 of 14
Facilitator: what made you to leave Witbank? Respondent: my father looking for work, he was working here at a bicycle factory. There s a lot that I forgot, I will add on as I remember. Please print me the transcription so that I can edit where I went on. I was the chairman of Sweet Food which was split into two, people like Sticks Sikhakhane, Maggie Magubane and us we broke away and then we met up again, one industry one union, we then became one with Food and Canning. I also organised Food and Canning, there s a lot missing. MAWU and UMMAWOSA, I played a very big role there. I used to recruit everywhere, as far as Natal, to connect with them so that they align with us, I would also go to Cape Town to connect with the others to align with us, eventually we had one union, a strong federation. Things were very bad at the time, the boers were arresting, beating people, people were beaten up, we constantly arrested, we were not sleeping in our own homes. They would come day and night, early hours of the morning around 2 am. It was not easy it was so difficult. If they see cars parked outside they would come in and say they are here to collect me. The boers looked for me up and down and did not find me. In fact I was working for Kelloggs.., they were aware of the political situation and let me sleep inside the factory. We worked hard for the federation and it still exists up to today. Facilitator: what happened to your family when the police were looking for you? Respondent: they were being pushed around by the police they were woken up in the early hours of the morning, they wanted to know when 5 of 14
do I go to work, when do I bring them money, they treated my family very badly, you can ask my wife but that was part of the struggle. I look at people today they don t know what we went through to get the democracy in this country. Now the new generation does not know what happened, they are working, earning nice salaries they do not remember that they are where they are because of us. That is why I say please give Vavi a copy of the transcripts because they can start accusing me of other things, I don t want to be accused of anything Facilitator: I understand baba Respondent: they will be calling me and asking me a lot of questions, they will want to know why I did not inform them before, I am going to remember other things and will add on as I remember Facilitator: so baba you worked in different places, from Pilkington to Kelloggs, what kind of a job did you do? Respondent: Pilkington I was a cutter, at Kelloggs I was a packer, I used to cut glass at Pilkington, it was a respectable place, they gave me nice jobs, so Pilkington retrenched me because of union issues because I was away for too long from work. Then I went to Kelloggs, it was home union and politically. They did not bother me they would pay me even if I was away on union business, Chris and myself, we worked in the same factory. If we were away for a week Kelloggs would pay us. Facilitator: what year was baba born? 6 of 14
Respondent: 1936 Facilitator: what challenges did you meet as you were building the unions? Respondent: (he whistled) the problems we had was the police used to raid us, worker problems, they were worried that if they join the union they would be fired, there were many obstacles, we continued despite the differences. When we were negotiating there was a lot of challenges, the government also did not want to recognise unions. Facilitator: so what did you do for the government to recognise you? Respondent: we put pressure on the government, we got other countries to put pressure on the South African government to recognise unions. Eric Taycke and Douwes-Dekker, they are the ones who were running the course at Wits, they encouraged us to take the course seriously which we did. They taught us so much about unions. We spent our Sundays at Wits, reporting on what happened during the week and they would give us a strategy on how to deal with the employers. The unions were aligned to the politics. As you can see in parliament, most of the parliamentarians were in the union fraternity. At the time people like David Thate, Mike Madlala and Sekete, some of those who were on Robben Island, those are some of the people who were strong politically. The lawyer, an old man, George Bizos, he was our lawyer. He is the one who represented the workers, he is now old. He was representing the workers in union and political matters. 7 of 14
Facilitator: why were the workers afraid to join unions? Respondent: they were threatened by the employers, if you join a union you will be fired, they didn t want to lose their jobs. What people would do is join secretly so that the others should not know. So what we did was to bring them together and tell them the benefits but they still wanted to join secretly. It was a battle to get them together, when we did get them together we would explain to them that the more they are the more the benefits because they will be stronger. Facilitator: at times the unions used to split in half, what would cause that? Respondent: yes it s true. The thing is people did not perceive things in the same way, people joined for different reasons. When we split it was because they wanted to form a federation, Stakes refused to join the union, that is how we were split and he remained. The split of MAWU and UMMAWOSA it was the same thing, later on MAWU came back this is where Food and Canning joined us. Food and Canning, MAWU were both unions but they were not recognised at the time. GAWU is the only union that did not split, Mufamadi and the others was very strong Facilitator: how come they did not split? Respondent: most of them were into politics and stuck together, their union was not recognised, they were advanced politically Facilitator: what made GAWU stronger than the other unions 8 of 14
Respondent: The union was formed by ANC members, they went to the factories, they talked with the workers, everything started with the ANC, the unions also emerged from politics. I remember an incident whereby Chris Hani visited us, he was coming from Botswana and he had to take him out of the country at night. Unions emerged from political parties like the ANC. Facilitator: And then you said unions tended to be weak that is why you decided to form a powerful structure, you tried this with FOSATU and COSATU. What made the unions weak? Respondent: people did not understand. The majority of the people do not know what they want and have no understanding of politics. If you were to talk about the Freedom Charter the majority do not know about the Freedom charter. I cannot tell you what the problem was, people were generally not political. Facilitator: you also said sometimes the unions failed to strike at the heart of the enemy, the apartheid regime in this case. Why? Respondent: the majority of people were not interested in unions, it was very difficult to convince people to join because they did not understand what unions were about. That is why we formed associations like SANCO so that we can connect at community level. Facilitator: what made the people to join eventually? Respondent: in 1973 during the Durban strike people started understanding unions, they understood the importance of joining. After 9 of 14
the strike, women stood up and took their husbands out of the municipal bars, thing were gradually changing. The government realised that people are beginning to understand, the liaison committee and the works committee were formed. People did not join unions because they didn t understand, they also did not understand the politics of the country. Chris was not interested in unions because he felt that people are being fired. I managed to convince him. Facilitator: so you recruited them to the unions? Respondent: yes, Chris was advanced politically, if you can meet up with Joel, he will tell you why they were kicked out of school. Do you know Joel? Facilitator: no I don t know him, I will try to find him, Joel Khumalo Respondent: they had a butchery at the centre? Facilitator: I know where it is Respondent: at the moment he is in KZN, he and Chris were kicked out of school, they were already advanced in politics, they came with the politics from school. They are not like us we learnt about unions at the workplace. Facilitator: you said earlier that Lekota wanted you to affiliate to UDF as COSATU? Respondent: yes 10 of 14
Facilitator: why? Respondent: I don t know, he said it was the struggle we are all in the struggle whether they can us or not. I don t know whether Lekota and Thathe were sent by the ANC or not or UDF, whether they were told to organise us to join, I don t know. Facilitator: Ramaphosa, he didn t want to join COSATU and leave his union? Respondent: I think the union did not agree to him joining COSATU Facilitator: the role of women in the unions, tell me about it? Respondent: they were very strong, they played a very important role in the union struggle, I will try and remember their names, a lot of women were powerful at the time, people like Thoko Magagula, Maggie Magubane etc., they were powerful Facilitator: did you have funds to run the unions? Respondent: we were digging in our own pockets, there was no money, we would collect monies in order to run the unions, not many people were prepared to give us money. Companies were afraid to give unions money because the government will shut them down. Facilitator: so how long were you in the unions? 11 of 14
Respondent: I aged in the unions, when I went on pension I was still with the unions. Facilitator: when you went on pension were you still at Kelloggs? Respondent: yes Kelloggs played a very important role in the union struggle, when we were detained, Kelloggs ensured that the employers pay the families while the fathers are detained they played a very important. When Chris was detained at John Voster, his salary was paid to his family when he was in detention, the same thing happened with me when I was detained, my children were getting my salary until I came back Facilitator: which year were you detained? Respondent: I cannot remember which year Chris and I were detained Facilitator: what were you charged with? Respondent: I was charged with suspicion, my charge was I had gone to Lusaka to inform the ANC not to take people out of the country they should rather send guns so that we can fight the regime. That was my charge. I had never been to Lusaka, they just suspected me. Facilitator: which position did you hold when you left the unions to be on pension? Respondent: I was the chairman from beginning to end 12 of 14
Facilitator: was it not difficult to be a chairman? Respondent: it was very difficult, if you are determined to do something you don t even realise the danger, I was an organiser and a chairman at the same time, so you can imagine. I also had to check the minutes, everything, I also had to go on field work. I was the chairperson of FAWU. Facilitator: chairperson of the union? did white people victimise you because you are the Respondent: you see, when I arrived at Kelloggs I was in Kanan, Chris and myself were full time shop stewards. Kelloggs senior management was people from Australia. We were also clear with political issues. Facilitator: when you look back now, is there anything you would have done differently? Respondent: it was very difficult, maybe with time I will think of other things. Transcribe the document so that I can go through it and give you more information if necessary. Facilitator: schooling, how far did you go? Respondent: no I never went to school, Andrew Gwala is the same as me. No graduate can educate me politically, I learnt through the unions and not through a book Facilitator: anything you want say in closing 13 of 14
Respondent: later on with time. Facilitator: thanks baba let me release you End 14 of 14
Collection Number: A3402 Collection Name: Labour Struggles Project, Interviews, 2009-2012 PUBLISHER: Publisher: Historical Papers Research Archive, University of the Witwatersrand Location: Johannesburg 2016 LEGAL NOTICES: Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only. People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. While these digital records are true facsimiles of paper documents and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website. This document forms part of a collection, held at the Historical Papers Research Archive, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, South Africa.