TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 1 A regular meeting of the Town of Victor Zoning Board of Appeals was held on April 17, 2017 at 7:00 P.M. at the Victor Town Hall, 85 East Main Street, Victor, New York, with the following members present: PRESENT: Keith Maier, Chairman; Scott Harter, Vice-Chairman; Michael Reinhardt; Donna Morley ABSENT: Mathew Nearpass OTHERS: Al Benedict, Code Enforcement Officer; James Larwood; Ken Welty; Debby Trillaud, Secretary The meeting was opened, the Flag was saluted, and the Pledge of Allegiance was recited. APPROVAL OF MINUTES The minutes of April 3, 2017 were not brought up for approval. CODE ENFORCEMENT QUESTIONS Mr. Harter I noticed that that trailer was still out there for Fishers Ridge as viewed from the Thruway. At least it was the other day when I drove by. I think I mentioned that at the last meeting to your substitute who was here. I just remembered that we had an issue with our friends at Mark IV for something similar when they used a tractor-trailer with signage on it. I just wanted to bring it to your attention. 1. LARWOOD, JAMES Tabled at the 4/3/2017 meeting 6297 Lambert St Appl. No 9-Z-17 Area Variance Owner James Larwood SBL #16.00-1-37.600/665 Applicant is requesting approval to construct a 40 foot long x 10 foot wide front porch which would be approximately 13-15 Feet from the Right of Way. Section 138-6A indicates that the front setback for a dwelling unit shall be 20 feet from the Right of Way. The Applicant is requesting an approximate 5-7 foot variance. Chairman Maier We will open and continue the public hearing for James Larwood, 6297 Lambert Street. Welcome. We ve got some new information; if you would like to run through it for us, briefly.
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 2 Mr. Larwood Basically, I had the surveyor; Scott had asked to put the porch on the survey map. His finding is that we need a six foot variance instead of a five foot variance. I had Marty from Code Enforcement come out before he left for vacation, we took measurements and we show five feet. We should try for a six foot variance then because we want to go by what the surveyor said. We need a six foot variance versus a five foot variance. Also I sent a letter over, which I hope you all have in front of you, talking about the disabilities myself and my wife have. She said at the last meeting that she wants this to be our forever home, so we have to think ahead. If something does happen to us, we could both end up in wheelchairs and I want to make sure this is already set in place and available to us when that happens and not have to wait for construction and go through the zoning board of appeals process after that. Chairman Maier I think you also submitted a change to the drawing. You originally had a ramp? Mr. Larwood Yes, the reason we had a 40 foot ramp on it as well, which we went another four feet into the, not only the setback, but into the sewer easement as well. We ended up having to scrap that because we felt that was asking too much. That s why we are going with a four inch rise on the steps to help us out. Chairman Maier Al, is that an issue, going into the sewer easement with a temporary structure? Mr. Benedict You would need to get approval from the Town Board. Chairman Maier Oh, the Town Board. Mr. Benedict Yes. I would say that it has been done before, but there is no guarantee. Chairman Maier I figured if it was permanent it might be a problem, but even if it s temporary. Mr. Benedict Generally, it s a hold harmless agreement. An acknowledgement between the owner and the Town, or in this case a representative from Farmington has to go in there and they would remove the deck or whatever is in their way. Chairman Maier This is just for the ramp. What if they made it removable? Mr. Benedict They would still have to go in front of the Board. Chairman Maier They would still have to, OK. Sometimes life gets easy.
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 3 Mr. Larwood At which time, if that does happen, we do need a ramp, I would go through the VA to get that approved and into place. Besides that, I took a few pictures around the neighborhood of different porches. They all vary in widths. My neighbor s to the right of me; she has a small deck on her s, it s not even covered. I did get a measurement of her s and she is already two feet into the setback herself. I m just requesting the six foot variance. Ms. Morley I do not have any questions. Mr. Harter I would like to make sure I understand what has been requested. You re requesting a porch for the entire front of your house, starting at the gable? Mr. Larwood It starts at the gable and goes just past the front windows. Mr. Harter It s supposed to be 11 feet wide? Mr. Larwood Correct, that s to the eave, the overhang. Mr. Harter I took a look at your neighborhood and I see there are some houses that have bumped out since they were first built. It looks like they ve taken the gable portion of the house and they projected out towards the street, which is similar to what you are proposing, but then you re proposing to attach to the roof and extend the roof over this porch area that you are creating. That prompted a question from me regarding how you make the roofs match to one another and how you achieve slope and how you keep the architectural appearance and also avoid creating roof drainage issues. I m just reading through an email that came from Marty, who was the Code Enforcement Officer at the last meeting. Perhaps you can give me a little information on how you can preserve the architectural appearance of the building and still achieve a good roof drainage plan. Personally I think that extending the gable out is fine. I think 11 feet is fine. I think continuation of the porch is fine. For me the only thing that jumps out at me when I take a look at your neighborhood, where there are many houses that look just like yours, I just don t see how you can agree architecturally by pushing that roof out 11 feet. I d be curious to know how you are handling that. Mr. Ken Welty with K3 Building and Remodeling addressed the Board. Mr. Welty In essence, it would be easier if we had architectural drawings, but we are not required to have them for this project, so certainly we don t want to expense them. The lower ends of the gable are going to be no less in eye view, if you will, standing in the house or on the
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 4 porch, than the lower end of the shed roof. The reason being is the gable roof will go up and over and then carry straight into the lower eave of the shed roof, if that makes sense. Chairman Maier The shed roof, you re talking about the existing roof that is there. Mr. Welty No, the shed roof term just for a sloped roof. That will valley into the new gable portion of the roof. The entire roof system will be detachable, if you will, if the home ever needs to be moved, that s a requirement of the building department that we have a header up against the wall. It should be noted, I know I sent Marty a note. Only a few months ago, on Lambert Street, we built a carport which is very similar to the same thing. It had no setback issues but a porch floor or a deck was built underneath that same carport roof. That entire roof structure was a shed roof in the same manor that we are proposing for Mr. Larwood. It easily met all slope requirements and drainage issues, etc. Mr. Harter If this is to be removable then how does it attach to the existing roof? Mr. Welty It will still tie in. The long point of our rafters that tie into the house roof will still shingle and flesh in, however, the entire structure could stand if the house had to be removed. Based on a header at the roadside and a header against the house side at two different elevations. Mr. Harter The Code Enforcement Officer at the last meeting, Marty, mentions in his email that he believes that the roof pitch would be reduced to 1:12. Mr. Welty I had figured 2:12 on a scale drawing of my own. We re proposing to use the GAF Timberline architectural shingle, definitely on the gable. Those are lifetime warrantied. GAF warranties those down to a 1:12 pitch. If we do get that low, we will use a low slope roof system like a modified peel and stick roof system. Chairman Maier I think one of the concerns is the architectural appearance relative to what s out there. Mr. Welty I understand. My personal thought on that is that it is in no way different from the carports that we have been building. There are countless aluminum carports in the Park. My firm does not build or construct aluminum carports. We build them wood structure and then either shingle or low slope roof system; some have metal roofs, etc. Further, Mr. Larwood s home is limited. In fact he is completely restricted to any useable deck or porch area on any of the other three sides of his house. Chairman Maier I want to get back to the point of the architectural aspect of the extension. I drove around there and I think that we ve seen pictures. Carports are one thing, and I ve seen
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 5 them. You referenced one that you had done without a problem. I took a look at that. There is a difference architecturally, visually, from a carport versus the gable extension. That was one of the questions, the issues, we had at the last meeting. If you look at any extension that is out there, that pitch fits the pitch of the existing roof to an extent. What we don t want to have happen is my guess is we don t want to look at a carport in the front of the building. When we were looking at the renderings that you did it was kind of hard for us to visualize what it was going to look like when it was completed. I think that is one of the concerns that the Board has. Mr. Larwood Do you have the one picture that I sent, the home that is over on Roberts? Ms. Trillaud Did you send it to me recently? Mr. Larwood I sent it with the other letter that I sent to you about the medical stuff. Ms. Trillaud Friday? Mr. Larwood Yes. Ms. Trillaud All I got were the two letters. Mr. Harter Just as a follow-up comment, if I understand the drawing that we were provided with in this particular drawing here which says Header Plan, there is one area where you join it to the house that you show a double 2 x 10 header and then there is another area, presumably about 11 feet away where you show a double 2 x 10 header there. I think you have it drawn reasonably well where you show that there is slope on it and you show that the elevation is lower 11 feet away than it is right now. So how does that not affect the architectural appearance of the house that we are speaking about? Mr. Welty I believe any addition to any home will affect the architectural appearance. I do want to go back to Mr. Maier. There is no carport in that park that continues the same slope, not one. It would be feasibly impossible. Chairman Maier Again, we re not talking carport. Mr. Welty But we are talking the same type of structure and Chairman Maier No, no, I don t want to confuse things. The applicant is asking for a gable extension, is that correct?
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 6 Mr. Welty To clarify, we are using a carport and a porch roof in comparison to each other. Both, at the end of the day are a shed roof structure. The gable extension is only part of this project because the gable is part of the home. If Mr. Larwood has a picture of a house that shows exactly what we are proposing to do, but this home doesn t have a gable. If his house didn t have a gable we wouldn t build a gable either. It does show very well the pitch of the roof. Mr. Harter You have a gable at the entrance that you are projecting toward the street, right? (Yes) OK, so that s one gable. Then you have the gable as you look at the other side of the house and you are proposing to flatten one end of it. Mr. Welty No. Mr. Reinhardt Stop, this is too confusing. You re trying to show us something (picture of house with similar roof and porch) and I can t listen to him. I ve got a problem with you showing that picture right now. Please continue. Mr. Welty Can I approach the bench and try and sketch something very quickly? Mr. Harter I think I ve got enough information, I m all set. Mr. Welty There are two different gables; three different gables. One to the left and right of the house. Forgive me, I don t know the directions, north or south. If you are standing in the road, the roof peaks low edge towards the road, up and towards the back of the house. It has a gable façade. Al, you know it s just a fake gable, it s just done to make the home have a little bit of architectural detail. Because it has that, we are forced to bring that gable out along. In other words our front porch will go up and over, follow that gable that we are going to extend out and then carry into a shed roof across the front. It should have a 2 to 3:12 pitch. Mr. Reinhardt As far as your picture goes, the problem I have with you showing it is we can t really create a record of it. Unless we have it in front of us and we can have something hard, a document. I appreciate you taking the picture but we re just going to have to go with what we ve seen to this point with our own eyes and what you are describing for us. I don t know what the Chairman thinks about that but my view on it is that that is going to be difficult to create a record for it and describe what it is. I took another drive around the neighborhood, all the streets. I agree with Scott to the extent that that gable There are a few gables outs there that are extended but what I didn t find is a porch that is similar to what you want, ten feet by some 40 feet. It s not there. That concerns me.
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 7 The other part, as sensitive as I can be, and I know you have some medical issues, but I really don t have anything to put it together as far as is this in two weeks, two months, two years, twenty years. We re starting to live in the land of ifs and buts. If that s the reason why you need that depth, I don t understand it. Can you explain to me, because last time you were here I thought it was because you wanted to sit on your front porch? Now these issues of disability seem to be that s the reason why you want that depth. Which is it? Mr. Larwood It s actually both because we want to sit out there on our porch and if we had these disabilities and we are in wheelchairs we re going to need that kind of depth. Mr. Reinhardt Ten feet, 11 feet? Mr. Larwood If you want to put a table out there and be in a wheelchair, you re going to need that kind of space to get around. Plus that would be by the front door. Mr. Reinhardt How long have you known about these disabilities, both you and your wife? Mr. Larwood I ve been on disability since 2010 I believe. Mr. Reinhardt My point being the last time you were here you said you had just purchased this home. (Correct) So I would hope you bought this home with eyes wide open. That porch wasn t there. Mr. Larwood Correct, but when we purchased the home realizing that we had a 44 foot front yard, it never even occurred to us that putting a ten or 11 foot porch on the front would be an issue. Mr. Reinhardt I find it troubling that I don t see any other porch like that in the neighborhood only that that gable has been extended and however the depth and width of it for what that gable holds; not the extended ten feet, 40 feet down the house. Mr. Larwood It s an improvement that we want to make. As you said you drove through the neighborhood. You ll see down at the other end of my street there are $100,000 homes that are totally different and don t even match the homes that we have in the area. There are a variety of different homes and structures in that Park. Mr. Reinhardt I didn t see it. I was looking for a similar type of structure to what you are proposing. I looked for that because one of the elements that we are searching for is whether or not your proposed structure, asking for the variance, if that s going to change the character of the neighborhood. I m finding that it would.
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 8 Mr. Larwood As I m saying, the other houses on the street don t match the character of any of the homes up where I m at. So why would me trying to make mine look nicer and better because it is in the Park, it doesn t match my neighbor s house.it doesn t make sense. Mr. Reinhardt If you are looking for six feet wide, approximately six feet that you wouldn t need a variance, and you can change that and you wouldn t need to be here. You could, if you will, improve your home to the extent of changing the character of the neighborhood, you wouldn t need a variance, but because you need a variance that element is in play. Mr. Welty Respectfully, can I ask, we wouldn t be here if we were going to build that out six feet, is that true, is that how I understand what you are saying? Mr. Reinhardt What I m troubled by is that you don t know if you need a five or six foot variance. I m going on. Mr. Welty The agenda said a 13 to 17 foot setback. So even the Township is unclear within two or three feet of what is needed. Ms. Trillaud I said that because it wasn t sure. Mr. Welty Per your requirements, we have fulfilled going back to the surveyor and the surveyor, even though the Town s employee Marty says it s only five feet, we re asking for six because that is what the surveyor says. Mr. Reinhardt Al, how big of a variance do they need? Do we know this, so I can pin a number down? Mr. Harter It looks like it varies from one end to the other, that s why. So it looks like five feet at one end and six feet at the other. Chairman Maier That corner is the tightest. Mr. Reinhardt OK, so right now you are looking for a six foot variance. If you were to pull that back where you wouldn t need a variance, whatever that actual width is, you could extend the gable, extend the roof line, and if you wouldn t need a variance, we wouldn t be discussing the issue of changing the character of the neighborhood. Mr. Welty With all due respect, it would change the character of the home the exact same way. You are still going to have a gable protrusion out toward the road and you re still going to have a
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 9 shed roof protrusion whether it s six feet or ten feet. Just to clarify, the six foot variance does include the one foot overhang, so the actual structure will only be ten feet out from the home. Mr. Reinhardt When you build anything, you certainly need a building Code. There are certain parameters depending on what you do, can we agree? You need a building permit? (Absolutely) Once that structure that need for the building permit enters into the territory beyond what the Code allows and you need a variance, then most certainly one of the issues is does this change the character of the neighborhood; among four other elements. If you didn t need a variance then the only thing you would have to deal with then is complying with the Code, the building permit and whatever else the Code allows you or doesn t allow you to do. I understand what you are saying, if you didn t need a variance and the roof was still the same, the pitch was still the same, how you are describing it it s not in our wheelhouse. Do what you will, do what you want, but because you are asking for a variance it is our concern. Mr. Welty OK, I do understand the concern. Mr. Harter I think also relative to that concern we did have someone from the neighborhood attend the meeting two weeks ago. She did make a comment about wanting to preserve the appearance of the neighborhood. She was in support of the project if the project was in keeping with the character of the neighborhood. We listen to you folks, we listen to the people that were in attendance last time as well. Just for some general information, I m aware of the builder who built these homes and I m aware of the quality that has gone into this Park. It s one of the nicest Parks in western New York State I would say. Mr. Welty I would agree. Mr. Harter So quality is an important consideration in what we are talking about here. Our determination of what is in keeping with the character of the neighborhood is what s probably going to come in to play tonight in our decision. Mr. Welty OK, Mr. Harter, I do understand. I do want to comment too that we have pulled countless permits with this Town for that Park only. We have an ongoing, fantastic relationship with Deb, the manager. We have no stipulations with the Town s Building Department at all. We ve always been on good terms and quality is always a factor in what we do. Chairman Maier I m going to ask you Scott. It would be nice to have a picture or a drawing that will allow us to take a look at that front exposure. Unfortunately, in looking through what we have it s difficult for me to put the pieces together to figure out what it s going to look like. I m going to ask Scott a question in a minute. When I drove around out there, you can see wherever there is an extension to the front, there is a consistency with the pitch of that gable
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 10 extension from what I could tell. Let s say the majority of them. I think that that s what we are trying to promote within the area. The visual impact is important, and that s what I m going to ask Scott. I think that structurally, the addition, I think the Building Department is going to do a fine job and protect everybody. I think what s hard with the lot, and this a little bit to Mike, is that you don t have a lot of room there for outdoor activity. Because of the proximity to the east, you know you are close to your neighbor to the east. You are basically very close to Ramada Drive. So you really don t have a lot of options if you want to go outside and I think a ten foot wide, if you go out ten feet, it s not a lot of space. Ten, I don t think is unreasonable, that s my opinion. But, the question comes down to Scott, what s it going to look like in your opinion, from the road, do you think? Mr. Harter I think you are going to see, as the drawing shows, you are going to see a lower roof line than what you see today and it ll be flatter. I guess it s going to be removable in some way, shape, or form. Chairman Maier Is there not a way to put an attachment on there, a gable attachment that ties in with the existing roof line? Is that not possible? Mr. Welty I believe our terminology is a little bit different, so I don t entirely understand the question. Chairman Maier So you have some front porches there where it looks like the pitch is very similar to the existing pitch of the roof. You ve got a gable extension coming out the front that is consistent with the pitch of the major roof line. So your fascia ties in all the way around. When I go out there, that s what I see. So the question is can you do that? Mr. Welty We absolutely can, we have. We just did on Lambert, going back to the carport, because it tied in the same way. It provided the same pitch. I think it s important to understand. A lot of the homes on any given road in the Park, they go lengthwise. When you look at the home, you see the peek first. Mr. Lambert s you don t. You see the long section, almost as if the Chairman Maier I understand that, but again, when I look at those porch s extensions, those porches, to me it looks like the pitch is the same as the existing pitch and it ties in the fascia all the way around. Mr. Welty At the gable portion of Mr. Larwood s home, which is the peek on the side of the house, the long side, we will follow that exact pitch. That will not change. I think the roof in question is where after that 24 foot peeked roof stops we have 16 feet to continue to get to 40
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 11 feet. That s where it will turn into just a sloped roof or shed roof. I think that is ultimately the roof in question, not the peeked roof because we will follow that exactly. Chairman Maier I m still having a hard time knowing what it is going to look like. I don t want it to look like a carport. Mr. Welty No sir, it won t look like a carport, mostly because it s finished. The entire structure will be finished. Mr. Harter I have a question for Al. Al is there a minimum roof slope in the Building Code? Mr. Benedict As the roof slope gets closer to flat it requires different materials. It does, at the end of the day require a minimum slope of a quarter of inch per foot, or something to that effect. I may be wrong on that, but such that water will run off. I think Marty had done some work where if it s below the 3:12 or 2:12 that a different material has to be utilized which Ken had alluded to. Chairman Maier So what do think it s going to look like Scott? Mr. Harter I think it s going to have an appearance that is different than what it looks like today. I think the roof line will be, where the gutters would be, for example, would be lower as you push that slope out, whatever that slope turns out to be, 11 feet. Chairman Maier So we can t do anything like this. So we can t build this up and bring it out ten feet. Mr. Welty But we are Mr. Maier. Chairman Maier So I could take gutters along the whole side of the gable, the extension, and tie it into the existing gutters that are on the Mr. Welty On the right side of the structure you could and the reason I say only on the right side is because that s the only eave that will return back into the house. Again, the peeked part of the roof will come,.can I approach the desk, I have a good picture. Mr. Welty showed a picture of Mr. Larwood s house from his cell phone. He explained the proposal for the roof. Chairman Maier asked that Mr. Welty to send the picture to the Secretary so there would be a hardcopy for the file. Chairman Maier So you can t widen it and go back into the roof?
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 12 Mr. Welty That would certainly create even less pitch because.. Chairman Maier It would actually be more pitch. You would go with a steeper pitch. Mr. Welty It wouldn t Mr. Maier because you are trying to stretch 40 feet in a 4:12 pitch roof. Chairman Maier Alright, I understand, unless you went all the way to the peek. Mr. Welty went up to the dais and drew a sketch of the roof plan for the Board members. Mr. Welty Sadly sketched, but that s what we are trying to accomplish. We re trying to accomplish this being that peeked roof, this being the shed roof. It s more than a feasible way to build a structure and I think the roof in question is here. This, we will obtain the same pitch as the roof has because we are going to extend that peek, that s all. Chairman Maier What s this distance here roughly? Mr. Welty That s 24 feet. Chairman Maier And why do we need to do this here? Mr. Welty Because we re trying to accomplish the porch closest to the driveway. Mr. Harter They want to cover the porch on that section also. Ms. Morley They want to cover the entire 40 feet. Mr. Reinhardt I think I understand the gabled peek piece. You are going to send that straight out and you re not going to change the pitch of it. The rest of the existing roof that is going to extend over the porch, where the kitchen windows are? (yes) The end of that roof, what is the distance from the porch floor to where the gutters are going to be? Mr. Welty I m going to calculate 7 feet 6 inches. Mr. Reinhardt The next question I have is if this Board decides that they don t want to grant you the six foot variance, but instead five. The calculations then would be instead of having a ten foot wide porch it would be a nine foot wide porch, fair enough? Is that going to change, then, the pitch of the roof?
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 13 Mr. Welty No sir. Mr. Reinhardt So it s still going to be 7 feet, whatever you just said? Mr. Welty Yes. Mr. Reinhardt What I m trying to drive at is if it s a five foot variance, four foot, three foot, certainly the width of the porch then decreases. So if it s a seven foot wide porch, you only need a three foot variance. You are telling me then that the pitch of the roof won t change? Mr. Welty It will not, no. Mr. Harter The pitch doesn t change but the reveal as viewed from the street changes because as you make that less wide, as you go from 11 to 7, or whatever it turns out to be, the slope of the roof doesn t change but Mr. Reinhardt OK. Mr. Harter It s the reveal. Mr. Reinhardt How you are describing it, if the porch then comes back, doesn t then the distance from the porch floor to the roof line then get higher. Mr. Harter Yes. Mr. Reinhardt So how can it be the same then? Mr. Welty Because we have the slope and the length of the existing roof too. If this is the existing profile of the house, we are not pulling off of there. We are not pulling off the low portion of the roof. We re pulling off here, somewhere three or four feet up higher on the roof. Mr. Reinhardt Right, you are not creating a valley. The valley isn t going to be where the existing gutter is now. The valley will be further up. Understood. Mr. Harter So does that mean that you will retain the same exposure? Mr. Welty I don t understand. Mr. Harter The same reveal, the same view, the same appearance, the same gutter line? Will you have the same gutter line as a result of this project, the same elevation of the gutter?
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 14 Mr. Welty It will be very, very close Mr. Harter, very close. Mr. Reinhardt What I d like to know then, along that line, if you couldn t get the ten foot width, what I d like to know is pushing it back, could you live with a nine feet, eight feet, where is that breaking point? Maybe it s ten feet. If it was nine feet, six inches, I couldn t live with it, I m not going to build a porch if I m only going to get nine and half feet. Mr. Welty I can speak for Mr. Larwood in the sense that we are almost only talking about the overhang if it is only one foot in question. We can shorten that overhang. Most of the homes in there don t have any gable overhang which is one, not good for the house and two, esthetically displeasing. We re proposing to do a one foot overhang. We could match the detail of all the other homes in there and do no overhang at all and then we would only need a five foot variance. Mr. Reinhardt OK; I d like to hear from him because he has to live there, what he can live with. Part of our charge here is to grant the minimum variance. What I d like to know is where that breaking point is when you are going to tell the Board, it s ten feet or nothing. Where is that breaking point? Mr. Larwood I m requesting the full ten feet. Mr. Reinhardt It s ten feet or nothing. Mr. Larwood The variance is six feet right now. Ten feet is the porch. Mr. Reinhardt Let s stay on the same page. What I want to know is the width of the porch that you are asking for? It s a ten foot width porch or nothing. Is that what you are telling us? Mr. Larwood Yes. Mr. Harter So you are going to cut new 2 x 10 rafters to go over this porch and you are going to extend those up onto the existing roof a certain distance so as to make the outer edge of the new roof at the porch approximately at the same elevation as the existing? Mr. Welty It will be close. In any shed roof extension you are going to be a little bit lower, but you are not going to be in the site view of the windows; certainly not from the road because you are at a much lower elevation. You are not going to be in the site view of the windows standing in the home either.
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 15 Mr. Harter Let me ask one more question. Does this portion of the porch need to be covered? Could it be open? Could the coverage be achieved by the gable end extension at the entrance? Does this need to be enclosed? Mr. Larwood No, it does not, but it s what we are requesting to do. I just want to make known that I ve done what I can for the Board, what was asked of me and I m trying to get it all clarified. Chairman Maier We understand, again the problem that we are having is the visual aspect of it. If it were just this extension here (extension of gable), this piece, visually I think it fits with no problem. Where I think the hang-up is, is this little piece here. Mr. Larwood Again, I know Mr. Reinhardt said I can t show you these pictures, but if I show it to you and send it over to Debby, show you the picture of the other house in the Park that has that. It doesn t have the gable but it has the shed roof already over it. Mr. Welty It ll give you a perfect sight line of the gutter. The Board agreed that this was fine and reiterated that the two pictures were to be sent to the secretary. Mr. Larwood passed his cell phone with the photo around to the Board members. Chairman Maier How far out does that one come? Mr. Larwood I m not sure. I couldn t tell you. I was going to take some measurements but it means walking on someone else s property. Mr. Harter That s OK, you ve given us a lot of information, and we appreciate it. Mr. Reinhardt You might be able to tell, I don t think that s ten feet. (the photo) Mr. Larwood Whether it s ten feet, six feet, whatever, it still gives you the visual. Mr. Reinhardt My point goes back to they may not have needed a variance. How that looks, to a degree, because they don t need a variance It s an apples and oranges argument is what you re trying to make. You re trying to say that that look that that individual has, he is certainly permitted to build it if he is within the Code, within the rules if you will; but you are asking for a variance. That size of structure, one of the elements we need to look at, is does that change the character of the neighborhood.
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 16 Mr. Welty So am I to understand that somebody in the Park could build something that we are asking to build only if they don t need a variance? My understanding is that the variance is only based on the setback issue. All the talk about the build structure is only that we don t understand Chairman Maier If you look at the five criteria, the esthetic or visual impact is an important characteristic that we take a look at. It s one of the criteria we take a look at in granting a variance. That s why we are spending so much time on this. I believe we made it clear at the last meeting that the architectural aspect was one of the two critical pieces. Mr. Reinhardt Just maybe for an example if there were a number of sheds in a neighborhood, make it simple, a 4 x 6 shed, and they were all plunked in, in the middle of the yards. Somebody wanted to say I want it in the back corner and I need a side and rear setback. That kind of situation doesn t exist throughout the neighborhood and potentially, even though there are sheds all over the neighborhood that potentially could change the character of the neighborhood. If the neighborhood had a whole bunch of sheds in the side and rear setbacks, in the corner, and they all looked similar, then it probably doesn t change the character of the neighborhood. Mr. Welty I respectfully disagree Mr. Reinhardt, only in the sense that there are so many different porches in there. We ve shown you different pictures. The last picture that was just shown to the Board is a perfect example. The biggest part of the structure in question is that shed roof. Chairman Maier For the record, we ve only seen one picture. Mr. Reinhardt What I don t see there, and I drove through the neighborhood, is a structure, a 10 x 40 porch on the front of the house. If you can show me something like that, I d love to see it. Mr. Welty I thought we were only talking about roof pitch. Mr. Reinhardt This is just my opinion, and I m not speaking for the Board, how I m evaluating the criteria and evaluating your variance request, is how does that size structure, does it fit in the rest of the neighborhood? Mr. Welty Can I ask, is it possible to build, it s probably impossible considering this is a variance hearing, but I think I hear from Mr. Harter and Mr. Maier that it would be OK if we were only asking for the gable roof?
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 17 Chairman Maier It s my opinion in looking at the structures that are there, that that is more fitting to what already exists there. Quite honestly, I think I saw dozens of them and there are various depths in terms of the extension, but I think I can honestly say there are dozens of them out there. I don t know if that was part of the original design or people did it afterwards, but it seems as though there are a lot of them out there. In looking at it that seems to me to be an awful lot more appropriate than.. I can t visualize, even with this picture, it s hard for me to visualize this extension piece here. I d feel a lot more comfortable with this piece, if that is the question you are asking. I d feel a lot more comfortable with this than I would with this whole piece here. Mr. Welty Would there be any way to build it in stages to where the peek section is approved and we proceeded with that and then if we could bring to the building department s determination esthetic value, roof pitch, that everything was going to meet and match and so on, there is no way.? Chairman Maier Not at this meeting. What we are going to approve is what is submitted. If you want to make a modification at this meeting we can make a modification, but it s basically what you submitted. We re granting something that is permanent and that is the other reason we are asking so many questions and the type of questions we ask. This is permanent, basically forever. If we didn t put conditions on it somebody could do whatever they wanted within that setback area that we have granted and we want to be careful that we don t do that. We want to really try to define what we are allowing you to do. Does that help? Mr. Reinhardt To me as far as front, side, rear setbacks, the shed is really the first one that popped into my head. In my mind it s a little more sensitive to me on the front setbacks as opposed to the sides and the rears. You are right out there, you are right by the street, it s right open to the public. We talk about buffers and landscaping and things that we can kind of soften the blow to the variance by asking the applicant are you willing to put buffers around it, landscaping. Here it s kind of hard to soften it, you re right out there in the front. I m having a hard time getting my arms around a 10 x 40 structure in the front of a house. Mr. Harter I would say that the photograph that you showed is a good photograph. I appreciated you showing me that. That helps me understand a bit better how you re trying to blend the two roofs together. The questions I have relative to that is how subject is the shed roof, your terminology, how subject is that to ice damming and that sort of thing? Mr. Welty Essentially none because it s not an insulated non-heated space. Ice damming only occurs from heat loss through the ceiling. Ice damming would be a non-issue. Mr. Harter And you would be able to achieve the minimum slope with that.
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 18 Mr. Welty Yes sir. Mr. Harter And do you consider, for example, a metal roof, or is it architectural shingles? Mr. Welty I think we peddle backwards and what we are all concerned with is the esthetic value of the Park and the rest of the homes, I m not sure how many metal roofs are even in the area. Mr. Harter My feeling after seeing that photograph is if I could see a few more photographs within the neighborhood of something like that, I would be more supportive of the extension over the 11 feet here. Minus that, I m in support of it. I think he has proven that he warrants a variance. I think he s shown that he doesn t have much room in the back. I think that there are extenuating conditions. I think it all comes down to this particular component of the variance application and I think that maybe we are in a position where we could, at least in my mind, approve what they are asking for, in my mind minus that or perhaps they would be willing to wait one more meeting and send in some more supporting information showing that photograph and other structures in the neighborhood like it. That s my opinion. Mr. Larwood Mr. Harter, I think that s the only one I found in the whole Park that is like that. Chairman Maier Or a better rendering, a very precise rendering of what you are proposing would look like. Ms. Morley I know they were speaking to cost effectiveness, but I definitely would like to see a rendering rather than this. This doesn t do it for me. The picture you showed me helped immensely, of the one roof. Chairman Maier Your thoughts on the variance, do you think the variance is warranted? Ms. Morley I look at this lot and it s not like any other one. You look at this lot, you can t put anything on three sides and I understand what he is trying to do. I don t have a problem with it. That s my vision. Mr. Reinhardt I can t get my arms around it. Ten foot by forty foot. That s a massive structure for that neighborhood. Chairman Maier How big is just the gable portion, how wide is that? Mr. Welty Twenty-four feet wide.
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 19 Chairman Maier So what if it was 10 x 24, Mike? Mr. Welty Essentially, that s unusable though. Chairman Maier That porch coming out of the entrance door is unusable? Mr. Welty It s not unusable but it s 16 plus feet from the driveway so if we are considering future handicap reasons. Chairman Maier You can still put a ramp in, can t you? Mr. Larwood It would still have to be a forty foot ramp because of the elevation of the door. Chairman Maier Right, but you wouldn t need a variance to put that ramp in. Mr. Welty Yes, we would sir because we would have to come out. The only way we could meet building Code is to go a full forty feet with that ramp. Mr. Reinhardt Let s say you get the 40 foot push, where are you going to put the ramp in? You are going to extend it in your neighbor s driveway? Where does the ramp go? If you need 40 feet for a ramp and you get 40 feet for your porch, where is the ramp going to go? Mr. Welty The meeting opened up with the information that the initial proposal for a permit was built with a ramp on it. The initial proposal, before the need for a setback variance came up, was actually 14 feet out. If I were the house and this was the 40 feet, you d have a ramp going down the front side of it but we omitted that in efforts to ease the variance, knowing that we were asking for too much. Chairman Maier The ramp? Mr. Welty I believe we already covered this in the beginning. Al said we would have to go to the Town Board for a temporary ramp. Chairman Maier What I m talking about right here, you said it wasn t useable. What I m talking about, this portion right here that you see, would be useable as a deck or a porch. Is that correct? Mr. Welty Yes.
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 20 Chairman Maier So from here down, can you put a ramp or steps without having it covered? Mr. Welty Not per Code. Chairman Maier Because? Mr. Larwood You have to come out 40 feet. Mr. Welty Al, do you know the rise and the run of a handicap ramp? Mr. Benedict I think one in twelve. Chairman Maier So you can t run the ramp along the side of the house? Mr. Larwood- No. Chairman Maier Because? Mr. Welty It s only 16 feet and we would never meet the handicap Code, ADA, we would be far too steep. Chairman Maier What I m talking about here is potentially granting a variance to build this. You should be able to access this without it being covered, without a variance. Mr. Welty Yes. We would still need a variance, because the only thing you are omitting, if I understand you correctly Chairman Maier No, no, I m trying to get you out of here tonight, possibly, or give you something to work with. You re thinking the ramp. I m not thinking about a variance over here. What I m talking about is, it s going to be as submitted and it would need to be described. What I m saying is there is a possibility to remove this shed roof. You can still put steps, you can still put, potentially, a ramp Mr. Welty But are you saying that the porch would still be there just not covered? Chairman Maier This would still be there. Mr. Welty But if you allowed us the deck without the shed roof over it, we still need the same variance. I might not be understanding you.
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 21 Chairman Maier You re not. You re talking about the sewer variance or whatever that is. What I m talking about is doing the same thing that you ve done here and tying the steps into this. Mr. Larwood You re saying eliminate the 16 feet. Chairman Maier There you go. Mr. Larwood But you couldn t put a ramp there still. Chairman Maier But we are not talking about that. You can t do that no matter what. We ve determined that so I don t even want to bring that into the discussion. What I m saying is, is this usable enough for you? Mr. Larwood It is useable space but that is not what we are trying to achieve here. Chairman Maier Then I think you re going to have to show that it fits within the character of the neighborhood. Mr. Larwood Mr. Maier, half the houses down there at the other end, don t look like the other homes in the Park either. The house two doors down from me has a whole different pitch line than mine does. It doesn t match my home. Chairman Maier It s not my responsibility or the Board s responsibility to go around and take pictures. It s your responsibility to bring in proof that what you are proposing is somewhat consistent or consistent with what exists. When I drove around there I was under the impression, and I think we ve got some picture, that most of what has been built there are extensions that look like this. (Gable extensions). That s what I saw when I drove around there. I saw some carports, but then again the carports are off to the side, they don t affect the front façade of the unit. This may be fine, I just want to make sure before granting approval. You may have a hard time with the Board getting approval tonight. Ms. Morley Driving down, we re seeing the whole 60 feet of Mr. Larwood s home, but most of the homes are turned on their side, so you re seeing the 24 foot side when you re seeing the peek and the porches added. Yes, that is the front of their house per se, that s how it comes to the road, but it s not the same thing. It s totally different. Mr. Welty With all due respect, I feel it s a very bad comparison because you re not comparing the same thing. We re comparing the side of the house to the front of the house. Chairman Maier No, I m talking about every single front of the unit that s in that development.
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 22 Mr. Welty The front being the long way? Chairman Maier Yes, the long way. Some have the smaller gable, decorative gable pieces, others have full extensions that come out. Virtually every one I saw was similar to this. I can go back there and take a look at it again, but that s what I saw. Ms. Morley I saw the exact opposite. I saw the short ends because they are mostly put in the long way except if they are on corners, but maybe I was on a different street than you. I m not sure. What I was seeing was the end. Mr. Harter Could I ask a question just for clarification. I think maybe I didn t understand this right. Is the ramp a whole separate application to what we are talking about which is a porch? Is the porch a ramp? Are the two the same? Mr. Welty No, they are two different entities at this point. Chairman Maier They are looking at putting in a 40 foot deck. Mr. Harter And then the ramp is going to Mr. Welty The ramp is obsolete at this particular point. Chairman Maier Right, they are putting steps in. Mr. Welty The initial marriage, if you will, is that the initial permit went in to have a ramp in it, but we came nowhere close to our setbacks and variance requirements, so we omitted that. Mr. Harter But didn t we get correspondence indicating that a ramp might be necessary? Mr. Reinhardt That s way too out, it s the ifs and buts. We are all going to be in wheelchairs, we are all going to be in walkers someday. Do we all get ramps in our house? What we have here is a request, an all or nothing in for a 10 x 40 because you want to stay out on the front porch. You want to entertain, you want tables and chairs, that s your reason currently. No one knows what s going to happen tomorrow, in two weeks, or two years. I believe you as far as what you are telling me, but there is really no way that we can put a great deal of value on when it is you are going to be needing that wheelchair ramp. If at all, maybe you won t. Mr. Larwood I m trying to look ahead because I know what is coming down the road. I know what my health is like and I know what I ve been told by my doctors. As I said, I don t want to
TOWN OF VICTOR ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS April 17, 2017 23 wait until the last minute when I m stuck in a wheelchair, which can happen at any time, and find out that I know I have to go through all this process of getting this information and getting it done the way I want it. Chairman Maier I m going to bring this to a head here. I have this picture, I believe you submitted this picture. Mr. Larwood No, I believe Debby did. Chairman Maier If you pull up a Pictometry picture and look at all the units that face the road lengthwise, you are going to find a gable extension. There may be one or two exceptions. I went around very quickly and circled them all. This is my feeling. I m fine with this (gable extension). You can put the steps down or whatever you want to do. If you can show visually that this is acceptable. I m concerned about the accuracy of the picture and I m not doubting it isn t. If you can show that this somehow fits with what s there and is not going to detract from the neighborhood, because I saw none of these. I have this picture right here and just looked at them. I think we will consider it. For tonight I d be OK with this. Mr. Larwood Mr. Maier, can I say one more thing. This was brought up at the last meeting also and Mr. Reinhardt didn t like the idea, but again, eventually, this being our forever home, I m going to put a garage on there and we re going to need that third exit out of that house. Chairman Maier Let me explain to you how this works. This Zoning Board, whether you appreciate it or not, has tried to help you. There are a lot of Zoning Boards, that I understand, you submit the information and the Board votes based on what they have in front of them. I think the Board is trying to accommodate you. We appreciate your situation very well. I tried to make it very clear. I think the Board tried to make it very clear, that we had two concerns. One was the architectural impact of that because of what was submitted, and the other was the fact that there was a concern about the ice build-up and the structural compatibility of it. I think we are moving past that and I think we can resolve that. In my opinion the question that came up at the last meeting, the architectural aspect, has not been resolved. What we can do is I can bring it to a vote and if that is what you d like we will see what happens. Mr. Larwood Well, as I just said, I don t know what we are going to do about putting a third exit in our house if we do put a garage on. Chairman Maier The garage really has nothing to do with this piece right here.