JAY SEKULOW LIVE! 12.20.04 This is Jay Sekulow. The Christmas trees go back up in Pasco County. Gene: This is JAY SEKULOW LIVE! From Washington, Chief Counsel of the American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ), Jay Sekulow. Welcome to the broadcast, everyone. Well, some good news to report on this Monday. After a lot of legal maneuvering, officials of Pasco County have finally got the message and up went the Christmas trees late Friday afternoon and over the weekend. You will recall that they were removed earlier by the city attorney s overreaction to the law, saying that even Christmas trees (we re not even talking about nativity scenes here; we re just talking about Christmas trees) had to be removed. Well, we thought that was absolutely outrageous and wrong. We went to work on it, and the good news is, those Christmas trees are up. They have a sign posted that talks about freedom and liberty as part of their disclaimer ; but all in all, this is a very good resolution to the situation, and a complete miscommunication and disinformation from the city attorney s office. But they got the message when our lawyers at the ACLJ got involved in the case on Thursday afternoon. We got a letter off to the city officials and started talking to citizens. The end result was very, very good. Gene: What s fascinating here, Jay, is this reversal of the ban on Christmas trees in Pasco County, Florida, which really encompasses the Tampa Bay area. All of this reversal took place less than 24 hours after your attorneys sent this letter demanding that Pasco County officials reverse themselves. This was a really good, quick and great result. The idea was not to go to federal court, duke it out and see what happens for next year. The idea was to get it resolved and get the displays up. The end result was we were successful. In all the cases we ve had so far, we ve been successful in getting them resolved. Good news in Pasco County, FL. Those of you living in that portion of the country, a great response from the community and a great response, ultimately, from the city attorney s office. They finally got it right. We are very glad with the end result. Gene: Listen to the language from this legal memo that was put out late Friday by the county attorney s office there, Jay. It says: Whether through misunderstanding or miscommunication, the actions and statements of this office have been taken to the extreme. And in an attempt to right these wrongs, well, the county official said they did a little more legal work, a little more legal research and came up with the right conclusion, Jay. They did. The right conclusion wasn t too hard to get to. All you had to do was read the opinions of the Supreme Court of the United States that even talked about Christmas Page 1 of 10
trees. It was that simple, that direct and that easy to do and it was unfortunate that the city officials didn t do it. Gene: There was tremendous media coverage, too. The Associated Press, newspapers and other sources were all writing about this. We do have many of those posted online at our website. Check it out in the News section at www.aclj.org. Right now, our phones are open for your questions for Jay at 1.800.684.3110. We want to hear from you today. Jay, the case involving Pasco County was an example of one of really relatively few cases where there have been serious problems, right? It s actually been a very good year. I know the media has highlighted a number of cases, but the reality is that most cities, most towns and most counties have been complying with the Constitution. They understand what the First Amendment says and they have allowed the displays to take place. By and large, there has been good success. There have been a couple examples we ve talked about on radio the HUD example was one that would have been national in scope where they were trying to deny nativity scenes. We got that quickly resolved. By and large, these cases are getting resolved quickly. Gene: Let s go to New Mexico where Cindy is on Line 2. Cindy, go ahead, please, with your question for Jay. Cindy: I want to open up a Christian company, like a Christian activity center; and I wanted to know if I would have problems with the secular world wanting to come in and change it because I only want Christian music, Christian atmosphere, and stuff like that. As a business owner, you can decide the decorum of your facilities, what you are going to offer, what you are going to do. That s protected under the First Amendment. If you are part of a church association, there is even broader protection under the First Amendment. But you should be in good shape. There are a lot of Christian owned and operated businesses that operate with Christian principles without any problem. You shouldn t have any difficulty there. If you do have problems, just give us a call. You should be in good shape, though. Gene: Thousands of people are calling up requesting a free copy of our new booklet called Foundations of Freedom. Jay, this is very important because it encompasses so many of our founding documents. It includes the Constitution of the United States, and we encourage you to get this book. We will be referring to it during the year. You need to have this great book that has all these documents in it. Call in for it today. Page 2 of 10
Gene: Your free copy of Foundations of Freedom. Just call this toll-free number at 1.877.989.2255. The U.S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Gettysburg Address and the Declaration of Independence all put together especially for you, free of charge. Foundations of Freedom. Call right now. 1.877.989.2255. Back with more in just a moment. [ Foundations of Freedom Spot] Welcome back to the broadcast, everybody. Again, if you re just joining us. Good news in Pasco County, FL. The nativity scenes in some of the squares are up. The Christmas trees have been returned. There is no problem there. There was even an attempt in one town where they were trying to regulate a privately held display in Connecticut, I think, and that got resolved quickly. The good news is most of these Christmas cases are ending very good and very quickly. We are getting great results. We did a TV special on the Trinity Broadcasting Network that aired last week and we got a great response to that. A lot of people have emailed us asking for information, which we have sent out. I also want to encourage you to ask for our new book, Foundations of Freedom. This is a great resource that we will be referring to a lot in the coming year. It has all the key historical documents in it: the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Gettysburg Address all put together in a booklet format that s easy to read, very usable and absolutely free. We encourage you to get your copy of Foundations of Freedom for the beginning of the year. Gene: Thousands have already given us a call to request their free copy, and you can too. Just call this toll-free number at 1.877.989.2255. The U.S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Gettysburg Address and the Declaration of Independence all put together especially for you, free of charge. Foundations of Freedom. Call right now. 1.877.989.2255. Let s go to the phones and to Harrison in Virginia on Line 1. Welcome, Harrison, your question, please, for Jay. Harrison: Our church rents a county building in Woodbridge, VA; and they have a large billboard sign there that they rent out for public use to various groups softball registration and the like and we recently decided to rent that sign. We put a message up there that said, Celebrating Jesus as Savior and Lord here every Sunday. Halfway through the rental period, we were told that someone higher up decided they didn t want to put religious sayings up there, and that they would have to remove ours. I was wondering if that was legal. No, it s censorship. If you open it up to community groups to utilize, you cannot then say to your particular community group because the message is Christian in tone and talking about Jesus, especially at Christmas, that it is somehow violating the law. It s called a limited forum or an open forum; and the courts have said unanimously at the Supreme Court of the United States, that viewpoint discrimination in these limited open forums is Page 3 of 10
unconstitutional. You are not allowed to have that. Let me get you in touch immediately with our lawyers here at the American Center for Law and Justice. We just have a few days before Christmas, so let s see if we can get this situation resolved for you. Gene: Let s go to Terri on Line 3 joining us from Ohio. Welcome to the broadcast, Terri, your question for Jay. Terri: Thanks, Jay, for taking my call. I m an employee for the State of Ohio and have been there for 21 years, and I have been asked to sign a statement that says I will totally and completely avoid any and all conversations of a religious nature with co-workers. This stems from a conversation I had with another Christian during our lunch hour, away from the work premises. Somehow it got repeated, repeated and repeated; so now they are asking me to sign this statement. I tried to file a complaint with EEOC, and they told me that my First Amendment rights were not covered under Title 7. Well, that s absolutely incorrect. In a sense they are correct in that it s a statutory right, but you can t be discriminated against because of your religious beliefs. But First Amendment rights apply in the context of government workplaces, and you do have free speech rights. You can t be disruptive to the work environment, but you are not in a situation where you can be censored. That would be censorship and that would be violating both Title 7 and the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. Now, have there been complaints filed at work, or is this just something where you ve had a problem in the past? Terri: Yes, there was a complaint filed. The person I talked to (which happened off the workplace during our lunch hour) repeated parts of the conversation, and it got blown out of context, apparently. There was a person I supervise who didn t like her evaluation, so she s the one who filed the complaint. Well, let me get you in touch with our lawyers here at the ACLJ. You cannot be discriminated against because of your religious beliefs. The fact that someone may have disagreed with your Christian position on something doesn t give them the right to have you censored, demoted or given a memorandum like this. Our legal staff at the ACLJ will get you some help. Gene: We do get a lot of questions about workplace rights on this broadcast. What has the Supreme Court said specifically about that kind of discrimination? It s been very clear. There are a number of cases that go back into the 1980 s which seems like and is literally decades ago. They ve been very clear that when it comes to religious autonomy or the ability of an employee to maintain their free speech rights in a governmental workplace we re talking about here, they are pretty broad. You cannot be disruptive to the work environment, but they certainly can t regulate what you are going to say during break time or during your lunch hour. The only thing they can be concerned with, especially in the government context, is making sure it is disruptive to Page 4 of 10
the environment. Being disruptive to the work environment is not simply someone disagreeing with you; that doesn t count. It s actually been very supportive. Gene: We also have some great resource material on topic on the web online at www.aclj.org, the Internet address for the American Center for Law and Justice. Let s go to Brian in Florida. Go ahead, Brian, you re on the air. Brian: Thanks for taking my call, Jay. My son goes to a high school here in Deltona, Florida, and what I understand from the students is that they are no longer allowed any more Christmas functions or music. I think they even played some Christmas music over the loudspeakers, but they are no longer allowed because-- There s only a handful of Jewish students in the school, and I think only one parent complained to the music director-- Let me jump in right here. There are have been a number of these and it s kind of misinformation. There was a great thing on FOX News last night with Rabbi Marc Gellman, who said that most of the Jewish community is very supportive and understand that this is a big holiday within the Christian community, and they understand that we give people space to celebrate their holidays. You see menorahs up. You see nativity scenes. So you don t want this oversensitivity issue. In a choral presentation during wintertime (and I know schools are getting out almost everywhere this week), you are allowed to have music that reflects the religious significance of the holiday as well as the secular significance. Again, this is one of these misunderstandings or overreactions. Let me get you in touch with our legal staff here at the ACLJ right away for some help. Gene: Let s go to California where we have Raquel on the line with us. Raquel, welcome to the broadcast. Your question, please, for Jay. Raquel: I m wondering if since parents are informed and given a consent form whether their children can be taught sex education in class, if they can also be informed of certain religious that are being taught, or certain speakers. The book of Koran was taught at my children s school with no knowledge to me. A speaker had come. If the parents have the right to opt out, to say no, we don t want our child to be taught this or exposed to this if we should be able to have the right to get a permission slip or at least be informed of something like this. Absolutely, you should have gotten a notification and they should have had a parental permission slip. You have the right to opt out if you disagree with some of the content of the sex ed program. So the answer to all three questions is yes. You should be protected there. We had a case about a year and half ago where we had to go to federal court in a similar situation, although in that case it was a general assembly and they wouldn t let a mother of one of the students even attend the assembly. We got that resolved in federal court and actually got a change of policy. So, this can be resolved. Again, you have the right to participate and know what s going on in that classroom. These are your kids, not the government s property when they go to school. You have the right to know what s Page 5 of 10
being taught and the right to opt your child out. Let me get you in touch with our legal staff here at the ACLJ as well. We ll get you some help right away. Gene: As you have said many times on this broadcast, parents don t relinquish their rights to their kids when they drop them off at school in the morning. That s exactly correct. The Supreme Court has recognized that since the early 1900 s. This kind of overriding parental rights with the nurture, education and religious upbringing of children primarily vested in the parents and protected by that sense. Interestingly, Gene, we re getting a number of these calls late in the year. This is typical as the year comes to an end and the students are getting ready to come back after the Christmas break. That s generally when these cases develop. It looks like it s going to be a busy time for the American Center for Law and Justice between now and the first of the year. Gene: We have another one on Line 6 as well. Kathy, from Virginia, go ahead with your question for Jay. Kathy: I was just wondering if parents can opt out of sex ed classes for their children, why can t they opt out of classes that are being taught intelligent design that they disagree with. Well, most Christians agree with the concept of intelligent design, but let s say it was evolution. I ll tell you the fundamental difference. I think that while you do have the right to opt out of them and maybe from a curriculum dealing with evolution, I think it is important to know what evolutionists think because their science behind that is so discredited at this point with the DNA discovery and the evidence that s out there, that I think, realistically, we have to understand that the evidence goes our way.. So let s learn the other side s argument so that we can refute it. A great book to read over the holidays is Lee Strobel s book The Case for a Creator. I think it is one of the best examples where he talks to former evolutionists, leading biologist, botanists, paleontologists, and really does a great job of going through the evidence that supports intelligent design that is, that this universe with its individual creation was put in place by a creator, a god. We know who that God is, of course. This is great new evidence that s starting to come out and starting to impact the schools significant. Gene: Jay, thousands are requesting their free copy of this Foundations of Freedom booklet that we re putting out at the ACLJ. It s important that everyone get one, too, correct? Well, we re going to be referring to it all year. We ve already started doing that on these broadcasts. So, yes, this is it. It has the Constitution in a readable format; the same with the Bill of Rights, the Gettysburg Address and the Declaration of Independence. All of this is very important information for you to have. Page 6 of 10
Gene: Get your free copy of Foundations of Freedom, free of charge. Just call this toll-free number at 1.877.989.2255. Back with more in a moment. [ Foundations of Freedom Spot; Merry Christmas Spot] Welcome back to the broadcast, everyone. I hope everybody is enjoying the Christmas music. I thought for a moment we were going to hear The Little Drummer Boy, and I ll tell you a Christmas story. When I was in elementary school, I was the drummer, percussionist in our school band, and you had to learn The Little Drummer Boy. I was the lead drummer that particular year, and I will tell you something, Gene, if you make a mistake in that song, the whole auditorium would notice, and I remember hearing it played the other day. Pam, my wife, and I were in a store shopping and that song came on and I stopped and I took out two pens from my pockets and did The Little Drummer Boy on the table as I was checking out. It brings back memories. It was a long, long time ago; but still. By the way, I grew up in a predominately Jewish neighborhood in New York and nobody complained about The Little Drummer Boy or any of the other songs at Christmastime. You didn t hear a lot of that. That s more of a recent phenomenon, what I call this overreaction to the Christmas issue. Good news, there on the most part; we re getting great results. Gene: If you messed up on that one, Jay, you must break out in cold sweats every time they play it. I still break out in cold sweats. Gene: Let s go to Line 1 now where Bill is joining us from Maine. Welcome, Bill, your question for Jay, please. Bill: We re opening up a drug and alcohol rehab center in Maine and we received a HUD grant of bricks and mortar and want to know what my hiring practice should be considering we are faith-based. You really shouldn t have any problems or any difficulties. The idea with faith-based programs was not to strip religious organizations of their religious meaning and significance, and not go in and start telling Christian ministries that they have to hire people of another faith. The same thing goes for if it was a synagogue. The government wanted to stay out of that by providing these benefits on a broad-based program. The courts have upheld it. I don t think there will be any problem whatsoever. In fact, the case we had involving a student and a scholarship the Free Exercise case while we did not carry the day for him and his choice of a scholarship, the Court was unanimous in one aspect saying if the government makes the determination that they want to provide faith-based alternatives to a broad-based program, they have the right to do that. That was the one highlight of that case that was positive. Of course, you can t make the government do it; and that s one of the things that was very clear in that opinion as well. Page 7 of 10
Gene: The whole issue of faith-based initiatives, one of President Bush s priorities, Jay, he spent a lot of time talking about it and moving in that direction. How do you sum up how things have gone in the first administration with that effort the faith-based initiative? I think it has done really well. It got a lot of press early on in the administration and then 9/11 hit and, obviously, there was some focus change. But the President has been consistent in moving that legislation and those policies forward. I think it has been great and one of the highlights of the domestic agenda is to get religious and faith-based groups involved in delivering services to those most in need. Gene: Do you think that s going to be part of the agenda for the second term as well, Jay? I don t expect any change there. I think the President will move forward removing the barriers that exist between faith-based organizations getting help to those who really need it. Gene: We have Sue joining us now from Massachusetts. Sue, go ahead, you re on the air. Sue: Thank you. My son is a sophomore in high school. Prior to the recent election, his Global Studies teacher chose to show the movie Fahrenheit 9/11 as part of the curriculum. Although I may differ with the political views, my question is, is it appropriate for them to be showing R-rated movies to 15-year-olds in high school and was that simply something immoral or is it illegal or are those ratings simply a guideline. It s not a question of immoral it s a question of not appropriate. I wouldn t want a 15- year-old seeing an R-rated movie. I wouldn t think that would be a good moral choice. But forgetting the moral side of it for a second, on the legal side, R means 17 and under. It s supposed to have parental consent or usually a parent in attendance. In fact, a 15 or 16-year-old can t get into an R-rated movie in the way the MPA enforces its guidelines. So the idea that they would show it in a school is absolutely ridiculous, especially without parental consent or supervision. I think it was a wrong decision forget what the movie said I think it s the wrong approach and parents rights need to be respected there. You need to get in touch with the school administration and find out exactly what happened and then call us back. We have a legal toll-free hotline you can call and we can get information to you. Get the specifics on this and then get back in touch with us. Gene: That special legal help line if you have a specific legal question or issue that needs to be addressed is 1.800.296.4529. Let s go to Paul on Line 4 from Florida. Your question, please, for Jay. Paul: How are you doing? Great! Page 8 of 10
Paul: Regarding Christmas and the majority rules, if you have one million people who are Christians and you have two or three people who are Muslim, Buddhist or whatever, why do the one million people have to put up with them? What is it that-- Hold on a second. We don t live in a democracy in that context. It s not just majority rule. I agree that it s ridiculous that we re censoring nativity scenes; but we do have a Bill of Rights and we don t want to violate minority rights as well; but I don t think rights are violated when a nativity scene or a menorah is displayed in a public area. Look, we don t have majority rule. This form of democracy is a constitutional republic. As Franklin said, it s a republic if you can keep it as such; and that was deemed to be the best form of government, and I think it is. You want to protect minority rights; I think it is very important that we do that. But this overreaction on the Christmas issue, has been just that an overreaction. Gene: Let s go to Massachusetts where Chris is joining us now. Go ahead, Chris, with your question for Jay. Chris: Jay, I m calling from Boston. Has there been any push towards making public service announcements so there isn t so much litigation with regard to Christmas or carols or sex ed, things of that nature. It seems it would be a little bit more prudent to get off public service announcements to city administrators would know that this isn t against the law. Maybe they could include that there is no term within the Constitution that there be a separation of church and state. As a matter of fact, I m a cab driver and was just talking to a customer about that. Overwhelmingly, most Americans think that it is in the Constitution. There is this general disinformation out there. There have been some public service announcements (PSAs) made. Of course, we ve talked about it a lot on this radio broadcast. I think at this point, we have to realize this: most towns, counties and cities have been in compliance. It s been the exception rather than the rule that they haven t been. By and large, I think the message has been well received. Gene: Jay, we also communicate directly with school administrators and officials in various parts of the country when a problem crops up, whether it s vis-à-vis, a telephone call, or a legal letter like we did in Pasco County, right? That s exactly right, and you try to get these things resolved quickly. The idea here is to let them know what the First Amendment says and get it resolved quickly. Gene: Let s go to Valerie in Idaho. Quickly please, Valerie, your question for Jay. Valerie: We have all these evolution science classes in high schools, and it s taught as fact when actually they re all just really theory. So, I m wondering why the schools are not allowing us to teach a Bible class. I know in colleges they teach Bible classes. Page 9 of 10
You actually can teach Bible classes in high school. You can have courses in the Old and New Testament. A lot of schools do. The Supreme Court in the 1960 s in the prayer school cases talked about the Bible being worthy of study in the public curriculum for art, history, education and literature. So it can be utilized and there are schools who have adopted that kind of curriculum. Again, the First Amendment allows it. Gene: At the American Center for Law and Justice, we are dedicated to protecting your religious, your constitutional freedoms. Jay, that s why we want people to plug in and get their free copy of Foundations of Freedom, right? I want to encourage our friends from around the country, if you have not yet requested your copy of Foundations of Freedom, go to your phone and call right now. This is a series of documents that we are going to be referring to during the upcoming year on this broadcast. It s something you need to have, and we encourage you to have it. It s absolutely free and a great presentation of these key documents. The toll-free number is 1.877.989.2255. Gene: Foundations of Freedom. Here s the toll-free number to call 1.877.989.2255. The U.S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Gettysburg Address and the Declaration of Independence all put together especially for you, free of charge. Foundations of Freedom. Call right now. 1.877.989.2255. That will do it for our broadcast today. Thank you so much for being with us. We will talk to you next time on JAY SEKULOW LIVE! Page 10 of 10