Television Series Transcript Diverse Islam >> "GREAT DECISIONS 2004" IS PRODUCED BY THE FOREIGN POLICY ASSOCIATION AND THE STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK NEIL D. LEVIN GRADUATE INSTITUTE OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND COMMERCE. FUNDING FOR "GREAT DECISIONS 2004" IS PROVIDED BY THE STARR FOUNDATION AND THE WILLIAM & KAREN TELL FOUNDATION. >> WELCOME TO "GREAT DECISIONS 2004," I'M RALPH BEGLEITER. WOULD IT SURPRISE YOU TO READ IN THE MORNING PAPER ABOUT THE POLITICAL POWER OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD? OR OF A MEETING OF BUDDHIST NATIONS? YET PHRASES LIKE "THE WORLD OF ISLAM" AND "MUSLIM NATIONS" ARE COMMONPLACE. ARE ALL THE WORLD'S MUSLIMS A UNIFIED FORCE, OR ARE WE MAKING A MISTAKE CONSIDERING THEIR RELIGION FIRST AND RELEGATING OTHER FACTORS TO DISTANT SECOND? TODAY ON "GREAT DECISIONS 2004," "MUTUAL MISUNDERSTANDING: AMERICA & THE MUSLIM WORLD." [ Crowd chanting ] >> Begleiter: MORE THAN A BILLION PEOPLE -- ONE OUT OF EVERY FIVE MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN IN THE WORLD -- IS A MUSLIM. THEIR WORLD CUTS A HUGE SWATH AROUND THE GLOBE, FROM SOUTHERN EUROPE AND NORTH AFRICA, TO THE MIDDLE EAST, ASIA, AND THE SUBCONTINENT, THE FAR EAST, AND NOW, GROWING RAPIDLY IN NORTH AMERICA. BUT FOR ALL THEIR NUMBERS, MUSLIMS REMAIN A MYSTERY TO MANY, ESPECIALLY IN THE WEST.THE MOST BASIC MISCONCEPTION IS THAT ISLAM IS A SINGLE, MONOLITHIC RELIGION. IN FACT, JUST AS CHRISTIANITY IS DIVIDED AND SUBDIVIDED INTO A MULTITUDE OF CHURCHES, SO IS ISLAM. AND JUST AS PROTESTANTS AND CATHOLICS HAVE FOUGHT FOR CENTURIES, THE TWO LARGEST ISLAMIC SECTS, THE SUNIS AND SHIITES, HAVE DISAGREED, OFTEN VIOLENTLY, OVER SOME OF THE MOST BASIC TENETS OF THEIR RELIGION. THERE ARE SMALLER ISLAMIC GROUPS -- SOME, LIKE THE WAHHABI CLERICS IN SAUDI ARABIA AND THE DEOBANDI SUPPORTERS OF THE TALIBAN IN AFGHANISTAN, ARE DETERMINED TO ENFORCE THEIR VISION OF "TRUE ISLAM" ON OTHERS, WITH VIOLENCE IF NECESSARY. YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED TO LEARN THAT MOST MUSLIMS ARE NOT ARABS. INDEED, ARABS MAKE UP LESS THAN 1/5 OF GLOBAL ISLAM AND ARE OFTEN AT ODDS WITH NON-ARAB MUSLIMS. ANOTHER COMMON
MISCONCEPTION IS THAT ALL MUSLIMS WOULD PREFER A THEOCRATIC GOVERNMENT RULED BY ISLAMIC LAW. BUT MANY SEE THEMSELVES AS BETTER OFF IN A SECULAR STATE. IN INDONESIA, FOR EXAMPLE, WHERE RELIGIOUS TERRORISM IS A GROWING PROBLEM, A VAST MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION IS ISLAMIC, YET 85% OF THE MUSLIMS OF INDONESIA FAVOR A SECULAR STATE. THE UNFAMILIAR IS OFTEN FRIGHTENING. THIS VIOLENT SCENE COULD EASILY BE MISTAKEN FOR A PROTEST AGAINST THE WEST. BUT THESE SHIITES IN IRAQ ARE PARTICIPATING IN A SACRED RITUAL OF MOURNING, WHICH WAS OUTLAWED DURING SADDAM HUSSEIN'S SUNI- DOMINATED RULE. IN FACT, THE SHIITE COMMUNITY IS ONE OF THE STRONGEST SUPPORTERS OF THE WESTERN OCCUPATION OF IRAQ, AND THE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IT BROUGHT TO THEM. APPEARANCES CAN BE DECEIVING, BUT AMERICANS CANNOT AFFORD TO BE MISTAKEN ABOUT 1/5 OF THE WORLD AROUND THEM. DO WE UNDERSTAND ENOUGH ABOUT ISLAM TO MAKE THE RIGHT DECISIONS? JOINING ME TO EXPLORE THE COMPLEX WORLD OF ISLAM ARE ROBIN WRIGHT, DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT FOR THE WASHINGTON POST. A PRIZE-WINNING JOURNALIST, MS. WRIGHT HAS REPORTED FROM OVER 130 COUNTRIES AND IS THE AUTHOR OF "THE LAST GREAT REVOLUTION -- TURMOIL AND TRANSFORMATION IN IRAN." AND SAMER SHEHATA, WITH THE CENTER FOR CONTEMPORARY ARAB STUDIES AT GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY. HIS EXPERTISE INCLUDES MIDDLE EAST POLITICS AND U.S. FOREIGN POLICY. DR. SHEHATA IS COMPLETING A BOOK ON POLITICS AND CULTURE IN EGYPT. WELCOME TO YOU BOTH. >> Shehata: THANK YOU. >> Begleiter: ROBIN, A LITTLE BIT OF A THUMBNAIL SKETCH OF THE MUSLIM WORLD -- YOU SAY THERE IS NO MUSLIM WORLD. IS THERE AN ISLAMIC WORLD? >> THERE IS NO ISLAMIC WORLD. IT'S A TERM WE HAVE LOOSELY THROWN OUT THERE, IN PART TO DESCRIBE A VAST NUMBER OF NATIONS, OVER 50, WITH MUSLIM POPULATIONS. BUT THEY SPAN RACIAL GROUPS, THEY SPAN CONTINENTS. FROM MOROCCO, ON THE ATLANTIC, TO INDONESIA, ON THE PACIFIC, A VAST NUMBER OF COUNTRIES, WHERE THE PRACTICES DIFFER PROFOUNDLY. ONE OF THE GREAT MYTHS, FOR EXAMPLE, IS ABOUT WOMEN, AND THE MAJORITY OF MUSLIM WOMEN ARE NOT VEILED. THEY ARE PRESIDENTS OF COUNTRIES IN INDONESIA, THE LARGEST MUSLIM COUNTRY. A VICE PRESIDENT IN IRAN, THEY ARE MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT, THEY ARE DOCTORS, LAWYERS, ENGINEERS.
THERE IS A VAST DIVERGENCE IN PRACTICES AS WELL, NOT JUST AMONG SEX, BUT THE WAY THAT PRACTICES, RELIGIOUS PRACTICES HAVE BEEN ADAPTED TO LOCAL CULTURES, LOCAL TRADITIONS. THERE IS SUCH A DIVERSITY THAT IT'S EVEN -- ONE OF THE MYTHS, AS YOU POINTED OUT, ABOUT "THE ARAB WORLD" -- THE FIVE LARGEST MUSLIM POPULATIONS ARE NOT EVEN IN THE MIDDLE EAST. THEY INCLUDE CHINA, INDIA, INDONESIA. DURING THE SOVIET ERA, IT HAD ONE OF THE FIVE LARGEST MUSLIM POPULATIONS. PAKISTAN. >> Begleiter: SAMER, THE I THINK THERE ARE MANY AMERICANS WHO SEE THE MUSLIM WORLD AS A POLITICAL MOVEMENT, OR MAYBE EVEN A RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT. IS IT A MOVEMENT? >> IT'S CERTAINLY NOT A MOVEMENT, PARTIALLY BECAUSE OF THE DIVERSITY THAT ROBIN MENTIONED. AND ALSO BECAUSE THE POLITICIZATION OF ISLAM, THAT IS, THE MIX OF ISLAM AND POLITICS, IS ARGUABLY A RELATIVELY RECENT PHENOMENON. MOST OF THE 20th CENTURY, IN THE ARAB WORLD, AND ALSO, IF WE WERE TO USE THE CATEGORY OF THE MUSLIM WORLD, IS NOT CHARACTERIZED BY THE POLITICIZATION OF ISLAM. THE PRIMARY POLITICAL IDEOLOGY WAS NATIONALISM. AND THAT'S THE CASE IN THE ARAB WORLD, AND AS WELL AS IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES IN ASIA. IT'S ONLY REALLY RECENTLY, SINCE THE END OF THE '60s OR THE 1970s, THAT THE PRIMARY FORM OF POLITICS IN COUNTRIES THAT ARE PREDOMINANTLY POPULATED BY MUSLIMS -- WE CAN CALL IT THAT -- HAS BEEN ISLAM. AND THERE'S NOTHING ESSENTIAL, REALLY, ABOUT ISLAM, THAT MAKES THE POLITICS OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THOSE PLACES ALWAYS AND NECESSARILY ISLAMIC. AND EVEN WITHIN THE MUSLIM WORLD, THE FORM THAT POLITICAL ISLAM HAS TAKEN HAS BEEN INCREDIBLY DIVERSE -- FROM PEACEFUL, DEMOCRATIC MOVEMENTS TO VIOLENT, MILITANT TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS. >> Begleiter: LET'S TALK FOR JUST A SECOND, SO WE SET THE STAGE HERE, ABOUT ISLAM IN THE WEST. IS IT GROWING IN WESTERN EUROPE, FOR EXAMPLE, IS IT GROWING IN THE UNITED STATES? TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT. >> Shehata: SURE -- WELL, IN ADDITION TO THE COUNTRIES THAT ARE PREDOMINANTLY POPULATED BY MUSLIMS, OF COURSE, IN WESTERN EUROPE, IN THE UNITED STATES, IN LATIN AMERICA, THERE ARE LARGE MUSLIM POPULATIONS. IN FACT, IN THE UNITED STATES, ISLAM IS THE FASTEST-GROWING RELIGION. SO THERE ARE MUSLIMS IN, PROBABLY, MOST, IF NOT ALL, OF THE WORLD'S COUNTRIES. THEY'RE MINORITY POPULATIONS, ND IN MANY COUNTRIES, ISLAM ISN'T THE PRIMARY RELIGION, AND MUSLIMS AND NON-MUSLIMS ARE LIVING TOGETHER, SOMETIMES WITH SOME CONFLICT, OTHER TIMES NOT. INDIA. EVEN IN COUNTRIES
WHICH ARE PRIMARILY MUSLIM, THERE ARE SIZABLE NON-MUSLIM POPULATIONS. >> THE FOREIGN POLICY ASSOCIATION, WHICH PRODUCES THIS TELEVISION SHOW, ALSO SPONSORS THE GREAT DECISIONS DISCUSSION GROUP PROGRAM -- IN FACT, THIS YEAR MARKS THE 50th ANNIVERSARY OF COMMUNITY DISCUSSION GROUPS MEETING ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY. WE HAD A CHANCE TO VISIT ONE OF THOSE RECENTLY, AND A GROUP MEMBER ASKED A QUESTION WE'D LIKE TO POSE TO YOU. >> MY NAME IS RON DAVID, I'M FROM TULSA, OKLAHOMA, AND MY QUESTION IS ABOUT ISLAM AND POLITICS. IT SEEMS LIKE, SINCE THE IRANIAN REVOLUTION IN 1979 WHEN THE SHAH WAS OVERTHROWN, THAT THERE HAS BEEN A STRONG TENDENCY IN MUSLIM STATES TO HAVE ISLAMIC LAW RULE THE COUNTRY. LIKE THE IMAMS IN IRAN OR THE TALIBAN IN AFGHANISTAN, OR IN NIGERIA, WHERE THEY ALMOST STONED A WOMAN TO DEATH, ACCORDING TO ISLAMIC LAW, FOR ALLEGEDLY HAVING COMMITTED ADULTERY. I KNOW THAT HISTORICALLY, RELIGION HAS PLAYED A VERY LARGE ROLE IN RUNNING THE STATE. MOST EUROPEAN MONARCHS GAVE ALLEGIANCE TO THE POPE, AT LEAST UNTIL HENRY VIII CAME ALONG AND BROKE WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. THE JAPANESE EMPEROR WAS CONSIDERED TO BE DIVINE. ISRAEL WAS FOUNDED AS A JEWISH STATE. BUT IN EVERY ONE OF THOSE SITUATIONS, YOU HAVE SECULAR RULERS, AND THEY ACCEDE TO GOVERNANCE BY CIVIL LAW. WHY IS ISLAM SO POLITICAL? >> ROBIN, WE HEAR A LOT ABOUT "POLITICAL ISLAM." IS THERE SUCH A THING AS POLITICAL ISLAM, AND ARE THERE SUCH THINGS AS POLITICAL CHRISTIANITY OR POLITICAL JUDAISM OR WHATEVER? ARE THEY COMPARABLE, OR IS THERE SOMETHING SPECIAL OR DIFFERENT ABOUT THE SITUATION IN ISLAM? >> I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE USE OF ISLAM IN POLITICS IS THAT IT IS NOT DIFFERENT FROM THE USE OF ANY OTHER FAITH IN RELIGION. THAT YOU SEE IN THE 20 th CENTURY, THE ROLE THAT RELIGION PLAYED AMONG SO MANY GROUPS IN FIGHTING FOR EMPOWERMENT. WHETHER IT WAS CHRISTIANS WHO USED IT IN SOUTH AFRICA TO FIGHT APARTHEID -- DESMOND TUTU, THE ARCHBISHOP OF CAPE TOWN, WON THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE. THE DALAI LAMA IN TIBET IS STILL FIGHTING FOR AUTONOMY OR HUMAN RIGHTS IN TIBET. LIBERATION THEOLOGY IN LATIN AMERICA, JEWISH REFUSENIKS IN THE SOVIET UNION, THAT THROUGHOUT THE 20th CENTURY, RELIGION WAS OFTEN THE LAST REFUGE OF DISSENT OR OPPOSITION. THE CHURCH, THE SYNAGOGUE, THE MOSQUE, THE TEMPLE HAVE OFTEN BEEN OUTLETS, BECAUSE IT PROVIDES AN INFRASTRUCTURE, IT PROVIDES IDEALS BY WHICH TO FIGHT FOR OR SEARCH FOR EQUAL RIGHTS, JUSTICE, HUMANITY. AND SO WHAT WE SEE IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD TODAY IS REALLY NO DIFFERENT
THAN WHAT'S HAPPENED ELSEWHERE. HAVING SAID THAT, THOUGH, YES, THERE ARE A DIVERSITY OF MOVEMENTS. IRAN'S REVOLUTION IN 1979 WAS A SEMINAL EVENT IN THAT IT, FOR THE FIRST TIME, INTRODUCED ISLAM AS A MODERN POLITICAL IDIOM, AS A VEHICLE TO ACHIEVE EMPOWERMENT, TO RID A COUNTRY OF 2,500 YEARS OF MONARCHY. AND THAT'S WHY IT WAS SO INSPIRING TO MUSLIMS WHO ARE NOT OF THE SAME BRANCH OF ISLAM, BECAUSE IT SHOWED THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE, THERE IS ANOTHER WAY, ANOTHER SYSTEM, TO REACH. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS WANT A THEOCRACY. BUT IT DOES EXPLAIN WHY SO MANY HAVE TURNED TO THEIR FAITH, IN PART BECAUSE THE WORLD'S LAST AUTOCRACIES AND LAST AUTHORITARIAN MONARCHIES ARE IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES TODAY, AND MANY OF THEM HAVE BANNED, EXILED, EXECUTED, PUT UNDER HOUSE ARREST, THE LEADING DEMOCRATIC FORCES, OR TRADITIONAL NATIONALISTS. AND SO PEOPLE ARE TURNING TO THE RELIGION BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY OUTLET LEFT TO THEM. >> Begleiter: SAMER, IS THERE SOMETHING SPECIAL ABOUT ISLAMTHAT MAKES IT THE LAST REFUGE OF AUTOCRATIC, DESPOTIC GOVERNMENTS IN THE WORLD? >> WELL, IT'S, I THINK THE POINT THAT ROBIN IS MAKING ISN'T THAT IT'S THE LAST REFUGE OF DESPOTIC, AUTOCRATIC GOVERNMENTS, IS THAT IT IS A LANGUAGE AND A RHETORIC AND A SET OF SYMBOLS THAT IS FAMILIAR TO PEOPLE LIVING IN AUTOCRATIC STATES. AND OFTENTIMES, THOSE AUTOCRATIC STATES ARE SECULAR NATIONALIST STATES, AND ISLAM BECOMES AN OPPOSITIONAL MOVEMENT FOR THINGS THAT WE WANT, WHICH ARE LESS CORRUPTION, BETTER GOVERNANCE, MORE TRANSPARENCY, A SENSE OF SOCIAL JUSTICE, SO THE OPPRESSED IN THE WORLD AND IN THOSE SOCIETIES CAN GET A LARGER SHARE OF THE PIE. SO I THINK IT WOULD BE WRONG TO LINK ISLAM AND AUTOCRACY WHAT WE FIND IN THE MUSLIM WORLD, IN THE ARAB WORLD ESPECIALLY, IS THAT ISLAMIST OPPOSITION MOVEMENTS ARE CONFRONTING AUTOCRATIC, DESPOTIC GOVERNMENTS, WHICH ARE SECULAR AND NATIONALIST. >> LET ME TAKE A PAUSE HERE FOR A SECOND TO INFUSE OUR DISCUSSION WITH SOME WORDS FROM AN ISLAMIC LEADER. ISLAMIC LEADERS THEMSELVES ACTUALLY BEMOAN THE STATUS OF MUSLIMS IN MANY PLACES IN THE WORLD TODAY. RECENTLY, THE SECRETARY GENERAL OF THE ISLAMIC ORGANIZATION CONFERENCE SAID, "MUSLIMS ARE FILLED WITH FEELINGS OF IMPOTENCE AND FRUSTRATION AS SOME OF THEIR COUNTRIES ARE OCCUPIED, OTHERS ARE UNDER SANCTIONS, A THIRD GROUP THREATENED AND A FOURTH GROUP ACCUSED OF SPONSORING TERRORISM." HE SAID, "MUSLIMS ARE CONSIDERED WITH SUSPICION, BESIEGED, DEPRIVED OF THEIR RIGHTS." AND HE ADDED, "MUSLIM ECONOMIES ARE FRAGILE AND WEAK COMPARED TO LARGE ECONOMIC BLOCS, AND WE CANNOT ACHIEVE MINIMUM ECONOMIC COORDINATION." THOSE ARE THE WORDS OF AN
ISLAMIC LEADER. AND THE SECRETARY GENERAL OF THE UNITED NATIONS SAYS, "THERE IS, IN TOO MANY PLACES, A FEELING OF RISING HOSTILITY BETWEEN ISLAM AND THE WEST. THIS IS UGLY," HE SAID, "DANGEROUS, AND WRONG." BUT KOFI ANNAN ALSO ADMONISHED ISLAMIC LEADERS TO IMPROVE THEIR GOVERNANCE AND HUMAN RIGHTS RECORDS, SAYING, "THE MUSLIM PEOPLES ARE CAPABLE OF MUCH GREATER THINGS AND THEY KNOW IT." ARE THEY CAPABLE OF MUCH GREATER THINGS, DO THEY KNOW IT, AND HOW CAN THEY ACHIEVE IT? >> Wright: ABSOLUTELY. I THINK WE FOCUS SO OFTEN ON OSAMA BIN LADEN AND SADDAM HUSSEIN AND SOME OF THE EVIL CHARACTERS IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, WHEN IN FACT, ONE OF THE MOST EXCITING THINGS HAPPENING IN THE WORLD TODAY IS THE EMERGENCE OF THE IDEAS TO TRY TO CHANGE SOCIETIES. THERE'S AN IRANIAN PHILOSOPHER, FOR EXAMPLE, WHO SAYS, "THERE IS A WAY TO BLEND ISLAM AND DEMOCRACY." AND HE DOES IT BY EXPLAINING SIMPLY THAT TO BE A TRUE BELIEVER OF YOUR FAITH -- WHATEVER YOUR RELIGION -- EVEN IF IT'S SOMETHING YOU INHERITED OR ITS PART OF YOUR CULTURE -- BUT FOR YOU TO BE A TRUE BELIEVER, YOU HAVE TO HAVE EMBRACED THAT RELIGION FREELY. AND THEREFORE, FREEDOM PRECEDES RELIGION. THAT'S A PROFOUND IDEA. AND WHAT'S SO CRITICAL IN UNDERSTANDING THE ISLAMIC WORLD TODAY IS TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE IN THE WEST WENT THROUGH A REFORMATION 400 YEARS AGO THAT GAVE BIRTH TO THE AGE OF ENLIGHTENMENT AND THEN MODERN DEMOCRACY. WHAT THE ISLAMIC WORLD IS GOING THROUGH IS THE SAME KIND OF PROCESS -- REFORMING ITS OWN FAITH TO COME TO GRIPS AND EMBRACE MODERN IDEAS, BUT IN A WAY THAT IS ACCEPTABLE. IT IS ONE OF THE MOST EXCITING TIMES IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD. UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S ONLY AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS. BUT YOU CAN SEE IT WITH THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES ARE -- 65% ARE UNDER 25 YEARS OLD, THERE IS A NEW GENERATION, A NEW ENERGY, A NEW DYNAMISM. IT'S A LONG PROCESS THAT LIES AHEAD, BUT IT HAS BEGUN. >> Begleiter: YOU MENTIONED OSAMA BIN LADEN'S NAME IN YOUR ANSWER JUST NOW. WE HADN'T TOUCHED ON HIM YET, AND THE FACT IS THAT MANY AMERICANS, MANY EUROPEANS, AND FOR THAT MATTER, MANY MUSLIMS AROUND THE WORLD HAVE COME TO SEE OSAMA BIN LADEN AS KIND OF REPRESENTING ISLAM IN SOME WAY OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS. IS HE THE FACE OF MODERN ISLAM? >> NO, HE'S DEFINITELY NOT, AND IT IS INCREDIBLY UNFORTUNATE THAT MANY PEOPLE ARE EQUATING OSAMA BIN LADEN, ESPECIALLY IN THE NON-MUSLIM WORLD, WITH ISLAM, AND THIS IS ANOTHER ONE OF THE MYTHS THAT YOU
REFERRED TO EARLIER, THAT SOMEHOW, ISLAM IS INHERENTLY VIOLENT, THAT IT SOMEHOW PROMOTES TERRORISM, AS IT WERE. IN FACT, THERE IS A KIND OF INCREASING ISLAMOPHOBIA IN THE UNITED STATES. THERE IS A DISCOURSE THAT'S QUITE TROUBLING, THAT ISLAM IS SEEN AS A PROBLEM, AS IT WERE.IT'S SEEN AS AN INHIBITOR OF DEMOCRACY, IT'S SEEN AS BEING THE REASON WHY THERE IS PATRIARCHY IN THESE SOCIETIES. THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THE MUSLIM WORLD HAS A NUMBER OF PROBLEMS THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED, BUT IT'S ALSO THE CASE THAT THERE'S NOTHING INCOMPATIBLE, THAT ISLAM AND DEMOCRACY ARE NOT INCOMPATIBLE. THAT ISLAM ISN'T THE PRIMARY REASON FOR PATRIARCHY EXISTING IN THESE SOCIETIES, AND SO ON. >> THERE'S A LOT OF POLITICAL LANGUAGE THAT SURROUNDS OUR DISCUSSION OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD, AND EVEN WITHIN THE MUSLIM WORLD, THERE'S SOME POLITICAL LANGUAGE. WE TALK ABOUT ISLAMISTS --WHAT'S AN ISLAMIST? >> WELL, THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF DIVERSITY EVEN AMONG ISLAMISTS. BUT I WOULD SAY AN ISLAMIST IS SOMEBODY WHO BELIEVES THAT POLITICS SHOULD HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF RELIGION, AND SPECIFICALLY, ISLAM, IN IT, AND ALSO, SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES THAT THE SHARIA, ISLAMIC LAW, SHOULD BE THE LAW OF THE LAND. I WOULD HAVE A MINIMALIST DEFINITION, AND THAT'S WHAT I WOULD PUT FORWARD AS THE DEFINITION OF AN ISLAMIST. >> Begleiter: ARE THERE A LOT OF THOSE IN THE MUSLIM WORLD THESE DAYS? >> THERE ARE, IN FACT, I THINK THE MAJORITY OF POLITICOS, AS IT WERE, IN THE MUSLIM WORLD, ARE ISLAMISTS. NOW, WHAT THAT MEANS EXACTLY, WHETHER THEY WANT A THEOCRACY OR WHETHER THEY WANT SOME KIND OF ISLAMIC DEMOCRACY, NOW, THAT'S AN OPEN QUESTION. >> ROBIN, WHAT ABOUT FUNDAMENTALISM -- WE TALK A LOT ABOUT FUNDAMENTALISM AND POLITICAL ISLAM. >> FUNDAMENTALISM IS A TERM THAT EMERGED IN 1979 AT THE TIME OF THE IRANIAN REVOLUTION, IN PART BECAUSE NO ONE KNEW WHAT TO CALL THESE PEOPLE. THEY WERE USING THEIR RELIGION AS A POLITICAL SYSTEM, CREATING THE FIRST MODERN THEOCRACY, AND SO THE TERM WAS USED, WHEN IN FACT, FUNDAMENTALISM REALLY MEANS, "DON'T USE YOUR RELIGION AS A POLITICAL IDIOM, ACCEPT YOUR LOT IN LIFE, YOUR REWARD WILL COME LATER." IT'S A TERM THAT EMERGED FROM CHRISTIAN EVANGELICALS AT THE TURN OF THE 19th AND 20 th CENTURY. SO IT WAS A TOTAL MISNOMER IN DESCRIBING WHAT HAPPENED IN IRAN, WHERE THEY WERE TRYING TO USE THEIR RELIGION ACTUALLY TO CHANGE THEIR LOT IN LIFE. THAT'S WHY IT WAS THE WORLD'S MOST MODERN REVOLUTION.
A FUNDAMENTALIST REALLY IS MUCH MORE APPROPRIATE IN DESCRIBING WHAT'S HAPPENING, OR THE KIND OF THOUGHT IN SAUDI ARABIA, WHERE IT IS VERY PURIST IN THOUGHT -- OR WHAT OSAMA BIN LADEN WANTS TO DO, AND THAT IS, RETURN TO THE PURITY OF THE TIME OF THE PROPHET MOHAMMED IN THE 7 th CENTURY. >> FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE, A LOT OF AMERICANS EQUATE ISLAMISM WITH TERRORISM. AND THAT'S BEEN THE CASE SINCE THE IRAN REVOLUTION IN 1979. DO ISLAMICS THEMSELVES HAVE A DEFINITION OF TERRORISM? IS THERE SUCH A CONCEPT? >> Shehata: WELL, THERE'S CERTAINLY A WORD IN ARABIC, WHICH IS IRHAB, WHICH MEANS "TERRORISM." AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION WHATSOEVER, OF COURSE. AND THERE HAVE BEEN MANY MUSLIM SCHOLARS WHO HAVE TALKED ABOUT THE UNACCEPTABILITY OF KILLING INNOCENTS IN THE NAME OF ISLAM. IN FACT, SHEIK AL-AZHAR, WHO IS ONE OF THE LEADING RELIGIOUS FIGURES IN ISLAM, DENOUNCED 9/11 IMMEDIATELY AND HAS DENOUNCED THE USE OF ISLAM AS SOMETHING TO JUSTIFY POLITICAL VIOLENCE. >> THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS TOTALLY CONDEMNED 9/11, AND IN FACT, EVEN IN IRAN, THERE WERE CANDLELIGHT VIGILS IN SYMPATHY WITH THE VICTIMS. >> Begleiter: SO MUCH OF WHAT OSAMA BIN LADEN TALKS ABOUT AND WHAT WAHHABIS TALK ABOUT AND WHAT MANY ARABS TALK ABOUT REVOLVES AROUND THE ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICT. I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU, ASSUMING FOR A MOMENT THAT THE ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICT WERE ABLE TO BE RESOLVED OVERNIGHT WITH KIND OF A MAGIC WAND OF SOME SORT, WHAT WOULD THAT DO TO THE ISLAMIC WORLD GENERALLY SPEAKING, WHAT WOULD IT DO TO MUSLIMS, WOULD IT TAKE A PROP OUT FROM UNDER THIS ASPECT OF ISLAM? WOULD THEY LOOK FOR SOME OTHER KIND OF REASON TO BE ANTI-WESTERN OR ANTI-AMERICAN? WHAT EFFECT WOULD THAT HAVE? ROBIN? >> CLEARLY, THE ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICT IS A THORN THAT CONTINUES TO FESTER -- I MEAN, CREATES A SORE THAT FESTERS. I DON'T THINK, THOUGH, THAT THERE ARE -- THERE ARE MANY MUSLIM SOCIETIES WHO ARE NOT TOTALLY FOCUSED ON THE ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICT. IN INDONESIA, THEY'RE MUCH MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR OWN PROBLEMS, THEIR OWN REGIONAL SSUES -- THE QUEST FOR ECONOMIC SECURITY, WHICH IS OF FAR GREATER CONCERN. THEY SEE IT, FAR AWAY, AS AN ISSUE, BUT NOT ONE THAT'S ON THEIR TOP FIVE, EVEN, OF CONCERNS. I THINK ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING THINGS IS THAT EVEN IF WE HAVE PEACE ON THE ARAB-ISRAELI FRONT, THAT WE'RE STILL LIKELY TO SEE TURMOIL IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD, BECAUSE IT, FOR THE FIRST TIME, WILL OPEN THE PANDORA'S BOX, THAT A LOT OF ARAB GOVERNMENTS THAT HAVE USED THE CONFLICT AS A
MEANS OF CREATING HUGE DEFENSE BUDGETS RATHER THAN DEALING WITH THEIR ECONOMIC PROBLEMS, RATHER THAN OPENING UP POLITICALLY, WILL SUDDENLY FIND THEMSELVES FACING REAL CHALLENGES. IT'LL BE A LITTLE BIT LIKE THE END OF THE COLD WAR, AND THE KIND OF PERIOD OF INSTABILITY WE SAW IN MANY COUNTRIES IN THE AFTERMATH OF THAT. IT TAKES A WHILE TO SORT OUT THE SITUATION. >> Begleiter: FROM THAT SAME PERSPECTIVE, IF YOU WERE ABLE TO WAVE THAT MAGIC WAND, WOULD RAPPROCHEMENT, IF YOU WILL,BETWEEN THE MUSLIM WORLD AND THE UNITED STATES, OR THE MUSLIM WORLD AND THE WEST, AUTOMATICALLY BE BAD NEWS FOR ISRAEL? >> NO, I DON'T THINK IT WOULD, NECESSARILY, BE BAD NEWS FOR ISRAEL. IN FACT, I THINK IT WOULD CREATE A SAFER MIDDLE EAST, AS IT WERE, AND IT WOULD REDUCE THREATS TO ISRAELI SECURITY, AS WELL AS THE SECURITY OF ISRAEL'S NEIGHBORS, HOPEFULLY, A PALESTINIAN STATE IN THE FUTURE. I THINK THAT THE QUESTION OF THE PALESTINIAN-ISRAELI CONFLICT IS VERY IMPORTANT, IS A THORN, AND THE RESOLUTION OF THAT CONFLICT WOULD BE TREMENDOUSLY BENEFICIAL FOR IMPROVING RELATIONS BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND THE MUSLIM WORLD, BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT THE PRIMARY ISSUE ON THE MINDS OF INDONESIANS POLITICS IS USUALLY LOCAL THE PALESTINIANS, THAT CONFLICT IS SEEN AS, UNFORTUNATELY, A RELIGIOUS CONFLICT IN MUCH OF THE WORLD -- AS THE OPPRESSION OF MUSLIMS. AND THE SITUATION IN IRAQ NOW IS ALSO SEEN BY MANY AS A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY, AS IT WERE, OCCUPYING A MUSLIM STATE. SO CERTAINLY, THE RESOLUTION OF THE PALESTINIAN-ISRAELI CONFLICT WOULD GO A LONG WAY TO BETTERING U.S.-MUSLIM RELATIONS, AND MORE SPECIFICALLY, IT WOULD GO VERY FAR IN HELPING RELATIONS BETWEEN THE ARAB WORLD, MORE SPECIFICALLY, AND THE UNITED STATES. >> Begleiter: THIS PROGRAM IS CALLED "GREAT DECISIONS," AND I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU BOTH TO PUT YOURSELVES IN THE POSITION OF BEING U.S. OFFICIALS HAVING TO MAKE FOREIGN POLICY. YOU HAVE A CHOICE OF HOW TO FACE THE MUSLIM WORLD OR THE ISLAMIC WORLD -- FROM AN ISLAMOPHOBIC POINT OF VIEW -- AND IT'S EASY TO JUSTIFY THAT IN LIGHT OF 9/11 AND THE ACTIVITIES THAT HAVE FOLLOWED SINCE THEN, AND EVEN SOME THAT PRECEDED IT -- OR YOU HAVE THE OPTION OF APPROACHING ISLAM FROM A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW. YOU'VE GOT TO DECIDE, AND YOU'VE GOT TO PERSUADE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO FOLLOW YOU AS A LEADER IN THE UNITED STATES. WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT HOW TO APPROACH ISLAM IN THE FUTURE? >> CERTAINLY -- I WOULD SAY THAT WE CANNOT HAVE A HOSTILE ATTITUDE TOWARDS ISLAM AS A POLITICAL FORCE -- THAT ISLAM IS INCREDIBLY DIVERSE, AS
WE'VE SAID BEFORE. AND THAT THERE ARE MUSLIM DEMOCRATS OUT THERE, AS WELL AS PEOPLE, UNFORTUNATELY, WHO WANT TO DO GREAT HARM TO THE UNITED STATES, AND SO ON. SO WE CANNOT HAVE AN APPROACH THAT VIEWS ISLAM IN POLITICS WITH SUSPICION. I'D ALSO LIKE TO GO BACK IN HISTORY A LITTLE BIT AND EXPLAIN TO AMERICANS THAT WE HAVE HAD AN IMPLICIT POLICY TOWARDS ISLAM IN THE PAST, AND IT REALLY HASN'T DONE US THAT MUCH GOOD. FROM THE 1940s UP UNTIL THE 1990s, MANY AMERICAN OFFICIALS THOUGHT OF ISLAM AS SOMETHING BENEFICIAL FOR AMERICAN POLICY, BECAUSE IT WAS GOING TO STOP THE INCREASE OF COMMUNIST MOVEMENTS, AS IT WERE, AND PEOPLE TALKED ABOUT ISLAM AS BEING ANTI-COMMUNIST. AND WE SUPPORTED COUNTRIES LIKE SAUDI ARABIA AND JORDAN AGAINST COUNTRIES THAT WE PERCEIVED AS THREATS, LIKE THE REVOLUTIONARY ARAB NATIONALISM OF GAMAL ABDEL-NASSER. AND OF COURSE THIS MANIFESTED ITSELF IN OUR SUPPORT OF THE MUJAHEDIN IN AFGHANISTAN. SO I THINK THAT I WOULD TELL AMERICANS THAT WE CANNOT HAVE A NEGATIVE ATTITUDE TOWARDS ISLAM AND POLITICS, AND WE ALSO HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL WHAT OUR POLITICS AND OUR POSITION SHOULD BE, BECAUSE IT MIGHT COME BACK AND HAUNT US IN THE FUTURE. >> ROBIN, YOUR PRESCRIPTION? >> IN AN ERA OF GLOBALIZATION, THE MANDATE FOR ANY ADMINISTRATION IS TO EMBRACE, NOT TO SEPARATE. AND BUSH ACTUALLY MADE AN INTERESTING BEGINNING IN THE AFTERMATH OF 9/11, IN SUGGESTING THAT ISLAM IS NOT THE ENEMY. THAT WAS AN IMPORTANT THING TO DO. HE ALSO WENT TO THE ISLAMIC CENTER IN WASHINGTON TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THE UNITED STATES DOES NOT LOOK AT EVERY MUSLIM AS THE ENEMY. WE NEED TO DO MORE. WE NEED TO ENGAGE WITH THOSE COUNTRIES, WE NEED TO ENCOURAGE THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE IDEAS, THAT ARE TRYING TO BRIDGE THIS GAP. WE NEED TO INCREASE THE DIALOGUE, WHETHER IT'S ALLOWING MORE MUSLIMS TO BE EDUCATED IN THE UNITED STATES, OR TO SEND AMERICANS TO HAVE DIALOGUES WITH THEM, AT EVERY LEVEL AMONG ARTISTS, AMONG WOMEN, NOT JUST AMONG GOVERNMENTS -- TO CREATE SOME KIND OF COMMON GROUND. THAT'S PROBABLY THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT THE UNITED STATES CAN DO. >> Begleiter: THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, ROBIN WRIGHT, SAMER SHEHATA, AND YOU, OUR AUDIENCE. UNTIL NEXT TIME, FOR "GREAT DECISIONS 2004," I'M RALPH BEGLEITER. >> TO LEARN MORE ABOUT "GREAT DECISIONS 2004," VISIT OUR WEB SITE AT www.greatdecisions.org. TO ORDER THE FOREIGN POLICY ASSOCIATION BRIEFING BOOK, TRANSCRIPT, OR VIDEOCASSETTE, OR TO JOIN A "GREAT DECISIONS" DISCUSSION GROUP, CONTACT THE FOREIGN POLICY ASSOCIATION. "GREAT DECISIONS 2004" IS PRODUCED BY THE FOREIGN POLICY ASSOCIATION AND THE STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK NEIL D. LEVIN GRADUATE INSTITUTE OF
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