2. P.01 - BB 1 - DET. SGT. DU PREEZ: Gestasioneer to Pretoria ondersoeker van beteurste documents en handskrif getuienes vir affgelope 11 jaar. Gedurende Augustus 1963 tot datum was ek belas van ondersoek van dokumente oorhandig deur A/O Dirker. Die volgende bewysstukke:- R.1 - behalwe die eerste drie bladsye R.2 - notas in koevert. R.3 - boek (1-27) R.4 - los notas waarvan eerste gedeelte verbind is. R.5-10 strokies en ook notas. Nuwe bewysstukke: R.8 - report to housing committee laaste bladsy in koorsy in potlood. R.9 - strokie papier YUTAR: WITNESS: YUTAR: Eerste 9 was in kar van Goldreich. T.2 - gevind is by Trevallyn dit is twee bladsye van sketse Al dokumente noukerig ondersoek die skrywer is die selfde as die wat bewysstuk M geskryf het. - M is n brief deur Ralph Arthur (put in by Sepel as letter to him) R.1 - eerste drie bladsye is in handskrif van Wolpe. R.1, R.8, R.9 and T 2 are read out. T.2 1 headed hand grenade different writing. 2 sketches of land mines produced in Court. 5 lbs = black powder (another document we have) 3.) sketches with chemical formu- 4.) lae (documents will be interpreted by military experts) --------------------------------------------
THURSDAY 19 TH DECEMBER 1963 - BB 2 - DAVIS (XAC CONTND) I told Sauerman at outset that it was a health and spiritual camp. He was not satisfied with V.B. PUTS TO WITNESS: V.B. WITNESS: that. I did not describe the objects. I refused to answer. I did not go into thing myself. I did not think about that. I only told what I was told to say. I told him something that I did not understand. I did not ask to explain meaning to me. S. did not ask me about telephones, duplicating machine etc. It lasted about an hour. S. asked purpose.. I said health and spiritual. I refused to answer other questions. He asked me about camp. Not about duplicating machine. He asked about telephone equipment. I said to entertain the boys. NOT about engine block, Judo, political discussions etc. He just asked what I did. I told him about telephone that is all. You are holding something back. You must have told a convincing story he returned equipment. He did not believe me. I was relieved when equipment returned. Come back to discussion can t take an hour. I refused to answer any more questions. That terminated the conversation. It could not have taken more than 5/10 mnts. I don t suggest conversation only 10 mnts. I can t tell you what else happened. V.B.: Puts true objects and purpose. Q. Camp was organised by CPC and A.Y.L. A. I don t know who organised it. I did not ask questions. I did not know who organised it. I hesitated when asked to join. I asked questions. At Desai s home when I learnt camp for three weeks I was reluctant. I had never been away from home for such a long time. I wanted to be home for festivals. That was only reason for my going for three days. I did not readily agree to go along. Mere fact that I said only three days shows reluctance. I did not readily agree to train young guerillas I expressed reluctance by going for 3 days only. I went because I did not want to say no. I had already committed myself when I said yes. I have a great regard for the truth. Q. You had no political background no political affiliations yet roped in to train young guerillas why? A. I was sympathetic to CPC I did not know camp was organised by CPC. AT Desai s house I did not know camp was
Puts objects: WITNESS: Puts: - BB 3 - organised by CPC. I did not know camp was being organised by CPC. Organised by CPC and A.Y.L. I did not know anything about A.Y.L. did not know whether CPC was banned. Purpose: to teach young members of all races with some political ideas the fundamentals of technology etc and some founding in political theory. I deny I knew this to be objects That is sort of thing I told my interrogators under 90 day questioning. What you have been doing is to deal with subjects taught AND ADD that purpose was for training young guerillas. You said: Books ) P.T. ) Motor Mechanics telephones duplicator ) A. That is correct. ) all for purpose of training ) young guerillas Can t say why necessary if everybody knew that purpose was for young G s. Nobody ever asked questions about revolution no discussion or curiosity about revolution if discussed I can t remember it. If I was interested I would not forget. I was not interested to that extent. I was not interested in discussion. Not interested in G.W. Not interested in training young guerillas yet I went along. At camp we worked as a group lectures were all to group i.e. no splitting up for lectures. We were together at lectures. Reason I told interrogators what I did was to save my own skin and to a lesser extent my companions After 5/6 interrogations I decided I had enough I saw endless vista of imprisonment. I thought if I told them object of camp that would NOT save my skin might get me into serious trouble. Q. Why were you no longer interested in saving your own skin. A. I was fed up with 90 days detention. I realised I might get years in gaol instead of 90 days. I wanted to get whole thing over with. I preferred gaol to 90 days detention. Gaol as hard labour prisoner was easier life than 90 days detention. It was the inactivity of 90 days what I told you last time was partly true. Fact that I was not absolutely happy with 90 days was not true. I did not mind first 3 mnths threat of next 3 months I became a bit agitated. - BB 4 - COURT: I had not yet started next 3 months when I made statement inactivity was getting me down
Puts: I then decided I would rather go to gaol for a long time than be a 90 day detainee. In all interrogations police were nice at outset and angry at end. S. refused to see me. I did not particularly want to see him. I did not look forward to visit of interrogators. They expressed anger by refusing to see me. They expressed anger walked out of cell told detective to put me back into cell until I was prepared to talk. Expressed anger in exactly the same way on other occasions. They expressed anger by saying if you don t talk you will be locked up forever BUT if you do talk you will be given indemnity Never told me I would not be prosecuted. Told me I will be pleased when evidence given. I am still in custody of police. When I have given my evidence I will be let go. I don t know whether I will be prosecuted there is a charge against me in Cape Town I have been told that if I give evidence I will be released. Q. You made statement because of 90 days if you went back on statement you would again be detained do you realise that? I last went through statement on 17 Sept it was 4 days after black Friday that is when I read it for last time and signed it. I have not read through it since then. I have been interviewed on it on several occasions. NOT on hand at Sea Point. One man made notes about news I was not sure whether news about Cuba. I said it was at time of Duban cricis. Q. Who suggested Cuba to you? A. Nobody. Q. Why did you mention Cuba? A. It was the topic at that time. I did not say we picked out Cuba for discussion. I said there was a discussion on news- I don t remember that the discussion was about Cuba. Q. Has anybody pointed out that at that time topic that was newsworthy was NOT Cuba but U.M. intervention in Congo? I thought it was at time of Cuban cricis nobody has suggested that I should introduce Cuba. I still think it was Cuba. Book for Chez Guevera only book I can remember discussed. I don t remember titles of others. I never read it I don t know contents of it.
Q. Do you know title of book? A. Guerilla warfare. RE-EXAMINATION: Q. This CPC what is it? A. Coloured Peoples Congress. Q. How long in existence? A. I don t know. Q. Who are leaders or office bearers? A. I only know branch. Q. Do you know their political views? - BB 5 - I was sympathetic to CPC No. 3 was present at some function he saw me working actively. I made contribution of R1-00 towards transport no contribution towards food. --------------------------------------------
- BB 6 - MASHIOLANE (XAC BY BIZOS) Q. I want to start in 1957. You resigned from ANC and reason was that you wanted to be elected to N. Advisory Board. Q. Was it necessary to resign from ANC to carry out duties of N.A.B. better. Q. Was necessity, because ANC was demanding rights and you did not want to have anything to do with such an organisation? A. No it had nothing to do with that I wanted to get a sent as a member of N.A.B. I had no reason to leave ANC because of meetings etc. Q. You wanted to work on N.A.B. for benefit of people you were going to represent? A. Yes in George Goch. Q. In a completely legal and above board way? A. Yes under laws of country. Q. You were not then or now, a person who wanted to do illegal things? Q. You have always tried to do the correct thing? Q. You have done reasonably well flourishing profession double storey bldg no reason to complain about anything? Q. You have never wanted to do anything that would endanger that security? A. Yes I did not want to. Q. You had no illfeeling towards any other group more particularly the whites? A. No I was not against anybody. Q. You would not do anything to happen to whites individually or as a group? A. No nothing. Q. To summarise this it would be correct to call you a law abiding and loyal citizen of this country? Q. That has always been the case? Q. When No. 9 came to you in 1960 and asked you to allow premises to be used for unlawful meetings of ANC, what did you say? A. Because he came to me, and asked me, and as he was related to me I agreed. Q. Are you prepared to commit crime because cousin by marriage asks? A. Yes I was persuaded because he was related. Q. Are you prepared to commit crimes because relative by marriage persuades you to do so? A. He came then with a clever plan he will hide them nobody will know about it and I agreed.
- BB 7 - Q. Do you mean you are prepared to commit a crime providing you are not found out, or would you refuse to commit crime? A. In a clever sort of way he got round me promises that he did not know etc. Q. When he told you to hide soldiers that were coming back to kill white men what about that? A. I did not know they were soldiers. Q. But when second group was taken you found out by accident? A. He said they just say so but in fact they were children who were going to school. Q. Young man who was sick told you he was going to train as a soldier and you told No. 9? A. He agreed and said it was true. Q. Did you tell No. 9 to get out? Q. Why not? A. I allowed him to stay because he was working for me. Q. But that had nothing to do with training soldiers? A. I was in disagreement there was talk and talk and talk and I allowed him to stay on. Q. You are not a ------------ have a flourishing practice motor cars bldg travel throughout the country? Q. You are not going to say No. 9 forced you to do these things? A. I will say yes, through fact he was related to me and was staying with me. Q. If No. 9 asked you to steal cigarettes would you do it? A. I will say that because he was related and working for me and doing good work I may do it. The way he schemed to get me to agree, it could in that same way cause me to do that as well i.e. steal cigarettes. Q. Did you consider training a serious matter? A. Yes especially soldiers but he always came with excuse. Q. Did you go to the police when you found that out? Q. But you are a law abiding and loyal citizen. A. Yes he got round me because he promised nobody would know about it etc. Q. As a law abiding citizen do you go to police after crime is discovered? A. Yes when I spoke to him he agreed and then did the opposite? Q. Yesterday you were able to make speeches from box, showing good memory and confidence etc. you are not so easily rushed are you? A. Yes my relative like No. 9 did get round me. Q. Could you be persuaded to commit murder? A. A man like him could persuade me even now it is as if I had committed murder.
- BB 8 - COURT: Is not truth that you were sympathetic to them? A. He has a very smooth tongue. (ADJOURNMENT) 11.30 A.M. (XAC CONTINUED) Q. When you were first approached by No. 9 you asked whether it was an offence to use premises for meetings? A. Yes he said there would be no danger. Q. You said it was as a result of that assurance that you allowed premises to be used? I would only allow my premises to be used for lawful purposes if I am satisfied no offence, thee is nothing wrong BUT when he comes round me with plans I agree. Q. To kill whites? A. We have killed where am I now he said no danger where am I standing now? I am still in custody. Q. When do you hope to go home? A. I don t know I am still locked up. Q. Don t you hope to go home after evidence. A. I have not been told that. Q. Have you not asked? Q. Have you not consulted lawyer? A. Where will I be able to do that I am locked up 6 mnths I have been locked up. My wife visits me I did not ask wife to get lawyer. Q. Is it not the position that you do not require lawyer because you are giving evidence? A. Don t take me off the track don t ask me questions which have nothing to do with statement I have not come here to give evidence about other things only about statement. I only know I am a prisoner I have been brought to give evidence I don t think I am an accused I am one. I am on trial that is why I am in the witness box. No. 9 is being tried. I am also being tried. I don t know whether I will go to gaol Court will decide. Q. Have you asked for how long you are going to continue to be a prisoner? A. We are not allowed to talk to anybody. Q. Not to police men? A. They come there but not to speak to me. They speak about police work. I was brought to Court by 2 policemen in a motor car police don t speak my language both whites they spoke Afrikaans.
COURT: - BB 9 - I have never been told for how long I am going to be a prisoner. The Govt. will know when to release me. The only thing I think about is that I am a prisoner NOT when I will be released. I am uneducated I was arrested in 6th month I mean 6 mnths since I have been arrested. Should witness not have been warned. (Discussion between Judge and Yutar as to whether witness is an accomplice witness is warned as an accomplice). I was arrested about 6 months ago. Q. I want you to remember day about 4 weeks after arrest, when you No. 9 and other were put on parade do you remember? A. I remember the occasion. Q. I want you to accept that it was 29-7-63 prior to then on how many occasions had you been questioned by the police? A. Which policemen. I don t remember how many occasions they took us all put us in gaol and locked us up Q. How many times taken out of gaol for questioning? A. Many times that was to take our statement. I don t know how many time before the 29 th July it was many time. My statement was started before the period and continued afterwards can t say how many. Q. First occasion what did police ask? A. They told me I was arrested and at my house soldiers were riding away Q. Did you deny this? A. In beginning I denied eventually I agreed. Q. How long after arrest did you agree? A. I don t know I was questioned several times. Q. After how many visits did you agree about it? A. I don t know. I go up there daily how can I remember. Q. Was it before or after parade? A. I don t remember. Q. You were put on parade as a suspect on 29 th? A. Yes they said I am a prisoner. Q. Do you remember anyone objecting to parade without legal adviser. A. No I don t know about that but I do know that the accused were all talking together called a policeman and asked for legal representative BUT nothing about parade. Q. Did you ask for lawyer? A. No after these people had made request and sent out written request No. 9 asked me if I had made a written request I said no I had not then No. 9 called policeman and wrote note to policeman to convey that I also wanted a legal - BB 10 - adviser. At that stage I did not want a legal adviser. Q. Have you been to an attorney before in your life? Q. Do you know function of lawyer? A. Not clear about that. Know function of lawyer is to protect person in difficulty. I had no thought of getting an attorney and have no money for attorney. Q. At that stage you felt you required an attorney but did not get one because no money? A. I did not get an attorney because I did not want attorney. Q. Was it because you were told you could be a witness and not an accused if you tell everything you know about No. 9?
A. No nobody told us. Q. Originally you denied that you place was being used to send soldiers away. A. I denied everything about soldiers, dynamite etc. Q. What made you change your mind? A. Gaol. Q. If a man denies he has hope of getting out of gail they may not have proof how did you think you wee making it better by admitting that your place was used for soldiers and dynamite? A. I felt I had nothing to do with all that I was drawn into it by them. Q. Police told you that you had used place for soldiers? A. I don t know of such policeman. COURT: When you were arrested you were told that? Q. Why do you say you were never told that? A. All other things not mentioned. Q. You said you denied allegation a number of times how did you think you were making things better by admitting allegations made by police? A. I did not think of any benefit I just decided to tell. Q. Because you did not like gaol? A. I only told the truth of what I had learnt myself and saw myself. Q. How did you think you were getting yourself out of prison. A. I was in prison now I will tell the truth. I did not expect to get any benefit. Q. Has anyone ever suggested that you tell Court that you did not know you were going to be witness. Q. When you denied, did you tell police that scholars were leaving your place not soldiers?
- BB 11 - Q. Was what you told the truth? A. I believed in the beginning they were soldiers I found out afterwards that they were soldiers. Q. On first occasion did you tell police that people who left were scholars not soldiers? A. No first I denied it. It was afterwards that I said it was scholars when I spoke I said at first people were going to be scholars and afterwards I found they were soldiers. At first I denied everything. A. Afterwards did you say scholars? A. Yes I said scholars who turned out to be soldiers. I don t know whether I said scholars and soldiers on a single occasion or on different occasions I was questioned on several occasions. Q. Deal with questioning when you denied? A. I can t several occasions. Q. Did police believe your denial? A. They did not indicate to me whether they believed me or not. They said they would put me away for 90 days and I will tell the truth. They did not tell me what they thought the truth was. If I did not talk I would be locked up for another 90 days. Q. You did not like being kept in prison? A. There was nothing I wanted or did not want was a prisoner. Q. Police said they did not believe you when you said you knew nothing about it? A. No they just took me locked me up did not tell me did not believe me. Locked for 90 days and another 90 days until I told the truth. They said they knew I would tell them the truth. Q. You knew that the police thought that your place was being used for soldiers. A. They did tell me what they wanted me to say just that I must tell the truth. They told me about soldiers when I was arrested not again. They questioned me about soldiers not about dynamite. Q. You know what police wanted to know? A. What? Q. That you place used for sending soldiers away by No.9? A. They only asked me if soldiers went away from my place. I said over and over again no, until eventually I made a statement. They did not mention No. 9 s name, or if I knew him. I did not ask them. On one occasion I was asked who loaded the soldiers. At that time I had admitted certain things but they were still continuing with my statement. Statement was taken down in that manner until eventually complete.
- BB 12 - Q. Months? A. I don t know how long. Q. Days or weeks? A. I cannot say how long. Q. Did you admit dynamite and soldiers at some time? A. I don t remember clearly now these things came one after another. Statement was made and written down over a period of time it was continued from time to time until finished. Q. When you denied allegations, what was police attitude to you i.e. manner they spoke, manner they treated you? A. Nothing particularly just take him away and lock him up. That was not very nice I was alone. No one to talk to you. Wife only started to visit me a few months ago NOT before statement. Q. Were you ever told why along why no visitors? A. No they only said we are giving you 90 days. Only allowed meals to be brought to me very recently. Puts: You told police about soldiers because you were in cell alone? A. No it was before. I decided I was under arrest and would tell the truth. What made me make statement was because I realised that I was locked up and I must tell the truth. They said when you finished these 90 days you will get another 90 days. All I thought here I am I am arrested I will tell the truth I only know I was locked up. I was told about another 90 days but I took no heed of that fact that I was going to get another 90 days did not worry me. I believed boys were going school afterwards I heard about Ghana during the existence of the second division. Q. By time of 3 rd division you knew they were soldiers? A. In a way yes I knew also that No. 9 s tongue was full of sugar. Q. But you knew they were soldiers? A. I was doubtful I was between the two. Q. Did you doubt No. 9 when he said they were soldiers? A. I was doubtful, because I took them to be scholars etc. I did not know what to believe. I did not know what to believe way to find out the truth. Q. Was that because No. 9 said they were students? A. It was his work not mine I had my own business. When 3 rd group was there I asked upon them either as students or soldiers. Q. Is it not the truth that No.9 told you they were soldiers?
- BB 13 - A. I was in two minds because smooth tongue. Q. Was he joking when he told you they were soldiers? A. All I worried about what is it what he says or what others say. I was still in doubt after 3 rd group had left but from then on I believe more they were soldiers at night of 3 rd group I heard both stories I was still doubtful. (at this stage witness interups and says why are you asking me these questions when soldiers left my house you were not there? That is something between No. 9 and myself ) Q. How could you be in doubt if you and No. 9 had had a long discussion after 2 nd group had left you asked how are those people to fight etc as to whether soldiers or not? A. He would say all that then next day he said NO they are just scholars. 2. Pxx I could not go to police he is closely related to me he is in my home every time he beats me through relationship. (ADJOURNMENT) (illegible) You were telling us about doubt whether soldiers or scholars - are you still in doubt? Q. You told Court you thought you were on trial because work was done at my house? A. Yes work was done at my house. I of my own knowledge know I am in case. Q. Is it because of this that you blame No. 9? A. I am just telling Court what he did I am not getting him into trouble. I have given evidence before about 2 months ago No. 9 was not there. I knew I was a prisoner then just as I know now. I was also concerned in the case. Q. Did you express any doubt whether young men were soldiers or scholars? A. I heard they were soldiers. I did not speak of them. All I was asked was whether they were person transported. Q. Do you know difference between witness and an accused person. A. I know in a case there are those who are accused and those who are witness. Letters that came to SK bldgs I can write a little of my own language. I got letters from customers. WITNESS: This has nothing to do with statement. COURT: He must answer questions without argument. Q. When you received letter addressed to SK Bldg did you not think it might be for customer? A. Not in case of ordinary correspondence did I have doubts but these were suspicious airmail - BB 14 - Came from Cape Province I had no customers there. I was suspicious because of airmail stamp and stamp of Cape Province. I had never written to anybody in Cape Province. I have never travelled to Cape Province. I give out cards. Q. Who opens correspondence that comes in? A. Either my nurse or my child. Q. No purpose in you opening letters?
A. I sometimes open them if I can t read I get somebody to help. I never went to school and never learnt to read and write. I called for glasses I need them to look at photos. Driving cars affected my eyesight I can see except for small print. Q. I have been given to understand that you distributed leaflets throughout South Africa? A. Only JHB. Q. What was written on the postmark? A. I called my nurse and my child to see they said it was from the Cape I could also make out it was from the Cape. Q. Did your children say from the Cape or Cape Town? A. Only word as far as I can remember is Cape. When I looked I saw Cape, and I knew it was in the Colony. COURT: That is not correct Cape does not appear in Cape Town. Q. When you saw letters did you expect to have to give evidence? A. No on account of address I felt they were not for me and I decided NOT to accept them. Q. Was this first time you have ever done this? A. I know of no other letter that came before this had no name thought not for me sent back. Q. Did you ever see envelopes again after you sent them back to Post Office? A. There is one the police found in my house. Q. Is that the one that had code? 9 took it out of packet but envelope indicated Cape Town. Police took letter from my house I saw it when they went to fetch it about three months ago long after my arrest. I am not certain whether this was before or after my statement police just took it did not say anything shown to me because found in my house. Q. Did they not ask what you knew about letter? A. They took letter said where from they themselves said it came from Cape Colony I agreed it looked like this. Police did not ask me about this letter. Not then that I decided to put coded - BB 15 - letters on No. 9. They did NOT show me letter. I only saw the envelope. It was closed. Police took it. Q. Two letters you sent back did you see them again? A. I have not seen these two letters again. COURT: Since arrest have you seen letters? A. None other than the one found at my house. I still remember the colour of the envelope one was pinkish of colour other greenish green came first about one week apart. Q. Why is memory so good on this and so bad on what happened between you and police after arrest? A. It is because on those occasions on which police never spoke to me. Q. Letter shown by No. 9 did it speak of soldiers or scholars? A. One group of numbers indicated meet group at Canada Station. First group was Mr. Motsoaledi. Third was about money he was to receive. He did not tell me any more 300 When I asked how it was going to come, he said in batches of 50. Q. Was it for soldiers or scholars? A. Money was to assist children who were going to school. Q. Did you laugh and say we know it is for soldiers? A. I had no reason to disbelieve them, as far as letters are concerned. Q. Did you have any interest in money that was coming? A. I had nothing to do with it. We just spoke there about it and that was the end of it.
Q. You did not think there was anything wrong in receiving letters? A. But the letters came before that. Q. No, about the letters that are to come. A. I only saw the two letters that came first and this one. He said if letters came you are to receive them. He said these letters are written to me from Cape they are mine must be kept will you allow me to do some writing in house now. I agreed to receive letters in the future he said nothing wrong how does NOT allow people to open letters I thought they might cause trouble. No. 9 got me into soup he did what he liked I could do nothing about it. Q. Dynamite was that for medicine purposes? A. No I did not think it was for medicine. Q. Did you ask for assurance that it was alright to keep dynamite? A. He said alright only be there for a short time. I said he must take it away. Q. What did you think dynamite was for? A. He told me next day.
- BB 16 - I did not tell him to get out. He was staying with me it was working for me if nurse had as sweet tongue as No. 9 I would have let her keep dynamite. I was arrested in Natal I did not know whether dynamite in pharmacy or garage I had dust of powder in chemist for a long time. Q. Did you know it was a serious offence? A. Yes but mine was mixed with medicine. Q. When you were arrested you did not know whether dynamite in garage? Q. It was probably that No. 9 could have left sticks in garage? A. I did not know if dynamite had been found there. Q. Were you afraid? A. Anybody who gets arrested is afraid. I would be in trouble if dynamite had been found police did not tell me that dynamite had been found nobody hinted at dynamite in garage. I have known Scotch Papi for a long time I had received dynamite in 1947/8 from him Scotch Papi works in the mines an ordinary miner he is an old customer of mine I saw him often. Q. When did you first tell police about No. 9 s dynamite activities? A. During the period in which I was continually making my statement It was in different ways that it came out. Yesterday I was shown a black tin I have many times in my chemist shop they are sort of tins I was shown yesterday that is where No. 9 got idea I don t paint my tins builders when they went away, left paint in bldg little in some of tins. Q. When you left were there a number of tins of paint at your place? A. There were. Put to witness: Treatment of the police is still the same as it was before I made statement. After I finished 90 days recently, my wife came to see me. I was allowed out into one space with prisoners instructed NOT to talk to each other even now NOT allowed to talk. I have been given permission to speak to wife and child and nurse. Scotch Papi is in same group I am now in 6 mnths in gaol. I am finishing my second term. Scotch Papi is now in cell with me about 2 months. Two of us are allowed to talk to each other. Will be evidence that police have brought witnesses to you so that you can tell them of advantages of making statements.
- BB 17 - A. I don t know of such a thing. Q. Has no-one come to call other than Scotch Papi police and warders? A. One young man, arrested in Rhodesia was on one occasion put in my cell he was kept with me for a week. This was last month or months before, I don t remember his name. I never spoke to him about statements. Scotch Papi and I talk about ourselves and being arrested and circle we were in. COURT: Did you speak about No. 9 at all? I saw person who took my statement yesterday not investigating officers. I don t know who put Scotch Papi with me. Not man who took my statement. XAC CHASKELSON I was told No. 10 s name by accused No. 9. I did not know his name when I was arrested. The first time I heard his name when I was shown photography by police I have remembered it since then. I remember identification parade at New Clare it was put off because of lawyer. Nobody came to point anybody out. The photos I saw afterwards he was some distance away I recognised the photograph as the one who had been on parade the police asked me who was with No. 9. They asked me if I knew No. 9 s bosses name I don t know his name but he was on parade. Why did you not say that? I told them I don t know the name but have seen him in gaol no explanation why he went there. Never identification parade to point him out. I went to talk to him after Kombis left. I was standing in my house they were outside the house I was not standing a little distance away. I saw No. 10 I did not recognize him first time. I saw No. 10 for the first time when loading the first occasion When the 2 nd load was going I saw No. 10 for the first time. I thought for myself he must be the one. I saw No. 10 on 2 nd occasion after the boys were in standing with 9. Walking away from me I was close to vehicles. They walked. They were on the other side of vehicles all mix up. When they walked away towards or away from you? They walked away from him.
My house on the corner. - BB 18 - Were you closeer to vehicle than they to them? Some is true that I said I was too far away to tell face of driver. They were 15 yds away. I wear glasses. ---------------- recognize people without glasses. No. 10 not in JHB during 1962? The youngster will tell he was there. I don t know his name never asked. I never thought of calling him by his name young boy never troubled to find out his name. I had nothing else to do at the time Newspapers: Have you seen photographs 3 shown to them? I was not shown any newspaper photographs by police. The only photos shown of Mlangeni they showed me no photographs the full description only from what I saw all the news he told me. Puts: What you have said about accused No. 10 is untrue. XAC BERRANGE: Remind you your evidence of: 1. questioned by police on many occasions 2. Soldiers kept at your house. 3. You don t know how many times you denied it before admitting it. 4. Questioned day after day. 5. Denied solders and dynamite but don t change my mind also said drawn into this? Q. Why did you persistently deny and tell lies? A. Because I felt my heart was not in it. The things done in my house drawn into it by No.9. Q. Why not right away? A. I was nervous frightened I felt innocent and kept on lying. Q. Originally telling the truth and later lies? A. The thief with corpus delicti must deny. I am troubled to-day. I was then good boy when they wanted to use a house they came to me. Soldiers or students got to Ghana to be trained coming back to kill the whites No. 9 told me that what is what students or soldiers - Q. Did you go to No. 9 Why lying to me? A. I did just immediately before I was to go to Natal, he stuck to the story 3 rd group told me they were students. Q. No. 9 could not have been in his right senses? A. He is more than clever. Q. Why the lies day and night ------ - BB 19 - Schools were big schools. He admitted once and them not.- He dodges everything. Q. If you knew soldiers gong to Ghana would you have helped at all? A. Doubtful what to do I kept him on. (question repeated 4 or 5 times) No answer. (ADJOURNMENT)
FRIDAY 20 TH DECEMBER 1963 RE-AN: YUTAR: I was going to show you photographs to identify, but in light of cross examination I am not going to do it. Q. What colours of paint left by builders were available? A. Two tins contained silver paint little left in the tins. In another store was a full tin of paint which was red. Q. Any more paint? A. No more. Q. Tin of black paint half used who obtained it? 9. Q. Where was it kept? A. It was left with my permission with other tins. Q. You decided to tell truth before and of first 90 dys Q. Did the police practice any torture on you to make you tell the truth? A. No my own decision forced me to. Q. Not subjected to any torture not contemplated suicide? Q. Suggested you live with Scotch Papi for some time? A. S. Papi was brought to me cell towards the beginning of last month. Q. Court asked if you discussed details of case. A. Just arrest nothing else. Q. Did 2 of you conspire falsely to implicate No. 9? Q. You told Court yesterday that the police placed photos before you, from which you picked out No. 10? A. Yes I said I know him not his name they brought photos. Q. What made you pick out photo? A. Because I know his face and not his name. Q. Fact that you had been on first parade with No. 10 did that influence you at all? A. No what helped me was that I had seen him at my house on 4 occasions. Q. Counsel said No. 10 was not in JHB in 1962. A. I remember that. - BB 20 - Q. Where exactly did you see No. 10 and on how many occasions? A. Inside my house and outside when they were loading boys. Q. Do you know Marabi Hotel? A. By sight. Q. Where is it? A. It is on western of my place I don t know names of all places I have not been there long. Q. How far? A. Approximately half a mile. -------------------------------------------- COLLECTION NAME: Rivonia Trial Collection COLLECTION NUMBER: AD1844 ITEM NUMBER: A6.3 DOCUMENT: State Witnesses evidence
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