A.H.V. 7. IN THE SUPREME COURT OF SOUTH AFRICA (TRANSVAAL PROVINCIAL DIVISION). BEFORE: The Honourable Mr. Justice de Wet. PRETORIA: 14 th December, 1963. (Judge President). In the matter of: THE STATE versus NELSON MANDELA AND OTHERS. CHARGE: PLEA: 2 Counts of Sabotage. All Not guilty. For the state : Dr. P. Yutar and others. For the Defence : Mr. Berrange and others. - EXTRACT OF EVIDENCE - VALELOO PERCIFALL JELLIMAN, declares under oath BY DR. YUTAR TO COURT: My Lord, this witness celebrated his 80 th birthday only the other day, could he be seated? It might be a strain for him. --- Permission granted. EXAMINATION BY DR. YUTAR: Mr. Jelliman you saw this witness in the box when you were brought into Court? --- I didn t catch what you said. Just now when you were brought in, did you see the person who was standing in this box? --- Well, I just saw him, that s all. I didn t look at his face. Well he gave his name as Thomas, do you remember him? --- Yes, I remember him. Thomas told His Lordship that he knew you by the name of Jeremiah, is that what he called you? --- Well, I don t know if he ever called me that. Now Mr. Jelliman, are you a member of the Communist Party? --- No! But you are a member of an organisation called the Friend of Soviet Russia? --- Yes, Used to be a member of that. You used to be a member? --- Yes.
And did you ever attend meetings of that organization? --- Yes. - 2 - V.P. JELLIMAN.. And in the course of those meetings who, in particular, did you get to know? --- Well, just the lecturer. That s about all. And who was the lecturer? --- Well, there were different lecturers. Who were they? --- Sometimes Mr. Harmel. Yes? --- Sometimes well they re different I can t remember all the names, but Mr. Berstein, and all members 10 you know. Alright I don t want to tax your memory too much. Now there might be more Harmels. Do you remember his first names? --- Yes, Mike. Michael Harmel? --- Yes. Did you ever know him by the name of Mr. Jacobson? --- Well, he asked me to refer to him as Mr. Jacobson. You also mentioned Mr. Berstein? --- Yes. Do you see him here? --- Well I saw him on one occasion here. 20 Do you see him here in Court now? --- No, I don t see him. Can you see well Mr. Jelliman? --- I don t see him. BY THE COURT: Would you ask the witness to walk down the Court and see if he can see him anywhere. (Witness complies with request). --- He s sitting there in that top row there. EXAMINATION BY DR. YUTAR (CONTINUED): What number from the left? --- From the end of that long bench? Yes? --- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. 30 ANYone else whom you can remember lectured at these meetings or spoke at these meetings? --- Well, there were different lecturers, many.
Yes, you can just remember some names? --- Mr. Slovo was one. Is that Advocate Slovo? --- Yes. - 3 - V.P. JELLIMAN.. Yes, who else? --- I can t remember all the name now, but there were different people that didn t belong to the party at all. For instance Father Huddleston and people like that. Well, I want to read ten names to you, and see whether they ring a bell with you. Nelson Mandela? --- I ve never met him. Have you seen him? --- I knew David, that s all I 10 knew. And who is David? --- Well, I ve heard since that it s Mr. Mandela. And do you see him in Court? I think you d better take another little walk, it s good exercise. MR. BIZOS TO COURT: I wouldn t mind My lord, if Accused No. 1 stood up. EXAMINATION BY DR. YUTAR (CONTINUED): WITNESS: Is it him sitting alongside the coloured man? BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Do you knw the man that s stan- 20 ding up? --- No. DR. YUTAR TO COURT: My lord, might I suggest, if he d go along the dock and point out those that he knows, then I won t trouble him to go a few times (Witness walks down the line of Accused). EXAMINATION BY DR. YUTAR (CONTINUED): Who do you identify of the ten people you looked at now? --- Not one, excepting Mr. Bernstein. Bernstein, and you don t recognize anyone else? --- No. 30 Alright, now look at Exhibit D, Page No. 3. (Handed to witness). Recognise any of those photos? --- No.
Page 2? --- The witness now produces his glasses. Witness: No. Page 1? --- That looks like the man I knew as David. The bottom one? --- The top one. - 4 - V.P. JELLIMAN.. Let us go back to these meetings or these lectures. Did you ever attend meetings of the Communist Party? --- Well, yes on the City Hall steps. Anywhere else? --- In the Trade Hall. And that s where you got to learn the doctrines and dogma of Communism? --- Pardon. 10 Is that where you first came in contact with the doctrine and dogma of Communism? --- Well, I suppose that really is, yes. At the Town Hall Steps. And do you know anything about the various newspapers published by left organizations, if I may use that phrase? --- Yes, I used to read them regularly. Which are those? --- Well, first of all there was I forget the name of the first one now. There was Advance, that s the second. Yes? --- And New Age, and Spark 20 Now in October 1961, did you receive any communication from anybody? --- Well, I received a letter. A letter from whom? --- It was from the Office of the body called the paper, the New Age. New Age? --- But Would you like some water Mr. Jelliman? --- Yes. And who signed that letter? --- That is what I can t remember. I can t remember that at all. And as a result of that letter, did you see anybody? --- Pardon. 30 As a result of that letter, did you see anybody? --- Yes, I came up to Johannesburg. Where were you then staying when you received the
letter? --- I was down at my plot near Meyerton. - 5 - V.P. JELLIMAN.. You came to Johannesburg, and who did you see? --- Well, I went to the office and I saw the clerk there, and they told me to go to the Tea Room in von Wielligh Street. And who did you meet there? --- Mr. Harmel. And what did he want? Did you speak to him or he to you? --- Well, he engaged me as Manager or Caretaker of Lilyleaf Farm. He engaged you as Caretaker/Manager of his farm, and which was his farm? --- He didn t say it was his farm, he 10 engaged me as Caretaker of the house. Which house? --- The big house. Where? --- There was no one. You see it was vacant. Where was this house? --- Rivonia. Did you tell you why he selected you? --- Well, not in so many words I suppose, but I took it that they trusted me because I had been paying regularly towards the upkeep of those papers. Seeing that there were no advertisements, they had to get contributions. You re not married? --- No. 20 Did Mr. Harmel know you had no wife? --- Yes. Did he make any mention of the fact that you had no wife? --- Well, what he did mention was that there would be no wife to come to the farm to visit me, or children. Was there any talk about children? --- Pardon. Any talk about children? --- Well, that s what he mentioned. He said if I have no wife then there would be no children also to So you would be all on your own? --- Yes. And did he take you to this house? --- Yes. 30 How did he take you there? --- By car. Anybody accompanying the two of you? --- Pardon? Anybody go with you? --- No.
Just Mr. Harmel and yourself? --- Yes. - 6 - V.P. JELLIMAN.. And did he tell you who the owner of the house was? --- No, I never heard who the owner was, until I got there, and that I heard from the people next door. They had a big dairy farm. They told me Yes, alright but we don t want what they told you. And when did he take you to this house at Rivonia? --- When did he take me? Yes? What year? --- Well, I can t remember properly, it must have been 1961, or 1960 or 1962 I can t remember. 10 Do you remember the month? --- It was October, the end of October. Well, I don t think there s any dispute. It was 1961, but we can establish in many other ways. When you came to the farm, was there anybody living in the big house? --- Mr. what was his name again? The late owner was there, but he was just busy packing up. The late owner Mr. Fyffe? --- He was packing up his things. Also an elderly gentleman like yourself? --- Yes, he 20 was very sickly. A very sick man, yes. You didn t see Mr. Ezra there by any chance? Another sick man? --- No, never saw him. BY MR. BIZOS TO THE COURT: This is about the third time my lord, in which my learned friend, in the last half an hour, has made comment which was calculated to either? --- There s no jury here Mr. Bizos. All the more reason my lord. This case my lord is being very widely reported in the newspapers, and it is unnecessary in my respectful submission for my learned friend to 30? --- You can accept that I ll be able to sort out what s relevant and what isn t. Yes, but it is not only your lordship, with respect
my lord, that is hearing the evidence. --- Yes. EXAMINATION BY DR. YUTAR (CONTINUED): - 7 - V.P. JELLIMAN.. Look at photograph Exhibit D, No. 13 please? (Witness looks at photograph). Put your glasses on? --- I don t know that person. You ve never seen that man at the farm? --- No. Now you saw Mr. Fyffe there. Did you see anybody else in the main house? --- No, I only saw Mr. Fyffe. And are there outbuildings there, outside? --- Pardon? Outbuildings? --- Yes. Did you see anybody there? --- Well, I don t know, 10 native boy perhaps, that s all. And anyone else? --- No. Do you know their names? --- Who. Of the native boy? --- It was a native boy belonging to Mr. Fyffe. I don t know what his name was. At least I ve forgotten it. I may have known his name. And then anybody else? --- Nobody else that I can remember. And were you engaged by Mr. Harmel? --- Yes. In what capacity? --- As caretaker. 20 At what salary? --- AT 25-0-0 per month, all found. And who was to pay you? --- Well, there was no talk about that at all. And where were you to stay? --- Where was I to stay? Yes. --- Well, before Mr. Harmel came, I used to stay in the big house to take care of it, but when he came I lived in a little flat I mean before Mr. Goldreich came there. Before Mr. Goldreich came you stayed in the main house, but when Mr. Goldreich came, you stayed in what you call a little flat. Where is that little flat? Look at the plan 30 please, Mr. Jelliman? (Witness looks at plan). --- Right on the corner like this one. Witness points out No. 1.
- 8 - V.P. JELLIMAN.. Now was there any talk between you and Mr. Harmel, as to how you should communicate with him if you wanted to? Do you understand me Mr. Jellman? --- There was no he used to come there. I didn t have to communicate with him at all. Did he leave you any address? --- No. When then did he tell you that you had to refer to him as Jacobson? When did he mention that you? --- As we were driving back from the farm. What did he say? --- With regard to that? Yes. --- He only asked me to refer to him as Mr. 10 Jacobson. If I wanted to know anything, I had to ask for Mr. Jacobson. And where did you have to ask? Who did you have to ask for Mr. Jacobson? --- Well, anybody on the place, that was there. Now did anybody else move in when you took on this position as caretaker? Did anybody what? Move in? --- Well, after two months, I think it was about two months, Mr. Goldreich moved in. That s right, we ll be told that he moved in in 20 December 1961. But now before he moved in, did anybody move into the outer buildings? --- No. Now when did you see David for the first time, and where? --- Well, at the after I d been there for a few days I don t know I ve forgotten how long, it may have been a week, Mr. Harmel introduced him as a cook, and he did cook for me. After you d been there a few days, Mr. Harmel introduced you to David as the cook, and he did cook for you for a few days. Is that what you said? --- For a few days? 30 How long did he cook for you? --- Well, all the time he was there. All the time you were there. This David you now
know is? You ve identified him? --- Yes. On this photograph as Nelson Mandela? --- Yes. - 9 - V.P. JELLIMAN.. Where did he stay? --- He stayed in one of the back rooms, in one of the outside rooms. Right, could you look at the plan Mr. Jelliman and just tell us which room? (Witness looks at plan). --- Either 13 or 12 one of those two rooms. Alright. Now after that, did Harmel bring anybody else to the place? --- No, not that I Now this Thomas Mashifane that I told you gave 10 evidence just before you, when did you see him for the first time? --- He came there after I was there some time. I forget now how long. Mr. Harmel at least the other boy was leaving you see, Mr. Fyffe s boy. Mr. Fyffe s boy was leaving and this Thomas Mashinfane was brought there. By whom? --- I don t know who brought him there. You don t know who brought him there? --- I met him there. And who gave your first month s salary? --- As far 20 as I remember, it was Mr. Harmel. Your second month s salary? --- Same. Third month s salary? --- Well, Mr. Bernstein paid me once, he came out there and he paid me. You ve identified Mr. Bernstein as Accused No. 6. Where did Mr. Harmel pay you? --- Just there at the farm. And where did Mr. Bernstein pay you? --- Well, also just on the farm. How did they pay you by cheque or cash? --- Cash. Then we know that the Goldreich s came. Mr. & 30 Mrs. Goldreich and their two children. Is that right? --- Yes. Before the Goldreich s came were there any visitors at the house? --- Occasionally, yes but they came at night, and
I can t tell you whom. - 10 - V.P. JELLIMAN.. Do you know any of the people who came there? Can you just try and think? Take your time, don t rush? --- Well, only Mr. Bernstein. Who else? --- And advocate Slovo. That s about the only two I And who did they come and see there? --- That I don t know. Who was there at the farm? --- Pardon. Who was there at the farm when they came? That s 10 before the Goldreichs came? --- Well only myself and David and Thomas. Did they come to see you? --- No, on occasions they did, when they came to pay my Did they come to see you for any other purpose? --- Pardon. Did they come to see you for any other purpose? --- No. Did they come to have interviews with Thomas? --- No, I don t know. I can t say for sure. I don t know. 20 Did you see where Advocate Slovo and Mr. Bernstein went to? Did they go into the main building or where? --- They went into the house, yes. Was anybody staying in the house? --- No. Did they go anywhere else? --- Not that I know of. And how often did they come? --- Well, that I can t remember. I don t know. I didn t Now did anybody else apart from these two Slovo and Bernstein, come referring to non-europeans? --- Well, people came there that I didn t know. 30 People came there that you didn t know? --- But they came at night. I don t know. I didn t see them. I was Now the Goldreichs moved in in December 1961. That
- 11 - V.P. JELLIMAN.. I can tell you. Did these visitors continue to come after the Goldreichs moved in? --- I don t know whether it was the same ones or not, because the cars used to come at night and stop outside. And how often did these visitors come at night by car? --- Well, three/four times in the week. I don t know. I can t tell you exactly, when they used to come there. And where did the visitors go to the main building or the outbuilding? --- The main building. And who joined them in the main building apart 10 from the visitors? --- I don t know who joined them. As I say they came at night and I don t know You already told His lordship that David stayed in room 13 or 12? --- Yes. Did you ever see him in the main building? --- Well, he used to go in there. He was the cook, and the kitchen was in the main building. He used to go in there? --- Yes. Did you see any native females there? --- I only saw Mrs. David once. 20 You saw Mrs. David once? --- And her two children. How did you know that it was Mrs. David who had two children? --- Well, they told me so. Who told you? --- I don t know. I forget now whether he told me or whether she told me. Now did you ever go with Thomas in the Austin motor vehicle? --- Yes. Who did that vehicle belong to? --- Well, all I know, it belonged to the farm. And where did you go? --- We went to the Nebo Re- 30 serve. To the? --- The Nebo Reserve. And who went with you? --- Thomas.
- 12 - V.P. JELLIMAN.. And for what purpose did you go? --- Well, Thomas told them, that he thought he was from Nebo himself, and he told them he thought he could engage other because we were short-handed, and he could engage other men there. And did you in fact, engage other men? --- Three. And did they come to work on the farm? --- Yes. Do you remember when that was? --- Thomas suggested? --- I can t remember whether it was before Mr. Goldreich came there, or after Mr. Goldreich came there. I can t remember. Now Thomas told His lordship that it was December 10 1961, just after the Goldreichs came. Now do yu during that time, December 1961., did David continue to stay in this outbuilding? --- Well, up to the time he left. I don t know. When did he leave? --- That I can t tell you exactly how, because I didn t know when he left. Yes, but he did leave? --- He left. Did he leave before you went on this trip with Thomas or after? --- After, I think. And had the Goldreichs already moved in? --- They moved in, from what I can remember, the beginning of January, 20 no I don t know. Yes, well the evidence will be they moved in in December, but be that as it may. When you came back from this trip with Thomas, was David still there? --- Yes. Andhten he left, you say? --- Some time afterwards, I don t know when. Did you know he was going? --- Pardon? Did you know he was going? --- Well, I knew him years as a cook, naturally Did you know that he was going? --- No. 30 Did he tell you? --- No. Did anybody tell you? --- No. Who cooked for you then, after he left? --- Well,
- 13 - V.P. JELLIMAN.. Thomas did. After Mr. Goldreich came there, Thomas used to cook for me outside. And finally, until when did you stay in the employ of Mr. Harmel or Mr. Jacobson? --- I think it was towards the end of February. 1962? --- Yes, must have been 1962. Why did you leave Mr. Jelliman? --- Because it was only a temporary job, because I was engaged to look after the house. You were only engaged to look after the house? --- 10 When Mr. Goldreich came I was repurposed. Did you ever see this Mr. Fyffe in the presence of Harmel? --- Well, only the time he came there when I first came there. I saw him there. Do you remember how did Mr. Harmel introduce you to Mr. Fyffe? --- No, he told Mr. Fyffe that I was the man that was going to manage the farm, that is all. And did you have any experience at all in farming Mr. Jelliman? --- Yes. What experience? --- Well, I grew up on a farm. 20 And did you in fact do any farming there, whilst you were there? --- Yes, we were doing gardening. And why did you leave then in February 1962? --- Why did I leave? Yes, --- I told you before it was a temporary job. So you weren t asked to carry on with your farming operations? --- Well, Thomas was really the man, he was really the gardener and when Mr. Goldreich came, he naturally looked after the farming business. And you left? --- Yes. 30 DR. YUTAR: No further questions. CROSS EXAMINATION STANDS DOWN UNTIL TOMORROW. AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS UNTIL 2 P.M.
5 th December, 1963: VALELOO PERCIFALL JELLIMAN, declare under oath (recalled). CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. CHASKELSON: How old are you Mr. Jelliman? --- 80. - 14 - V.P. JELLIMAN.. You re a bit hard of hearing. I m sorry I ll speak up a bit Mr. Jelliman. Can you hear me? --- No. Mr. Jelliman, I take it your memory isn t as good as it used to be? --- Yes. You re starting to forget a few things these days? --- Yes. 10 And the things that you ve told us, happened two or three years ago? --- Yes. And at the time I suppose, there was no reason for you to expect that you would have to remember particularly, the events which took place? --- No. So you didn t make any notes or anything like that of what happened? --- No. Now I want to read you anote that I have of your evidence yesterday. My note is that you said think Mr. Bernstein paid me once. --- Yes. 20 Now do you say you think he paid you once, does that mean that you re not sure whether he paid you or not? --- Well, I m almost sure, but I don t know, because I could make a mistake like anybody else. I take it that if the evidence were that Mr. Bernstein did not pay you, you would not deny it? --- No, I don t just understand the question. If there were evidence that Mr. Bernstein did not pay you, you would not deny that? --- No, of course not. One other thing, you mentioned something about 30 the friends of the Soviet Union which you attended? --- Yes. That was an organisation which was formed during the war, was it not? --- Yes, just after the war.
It was quite a respectable organisation? --- Yes. - 15 - V.P. JELLIMAN.. I think the cabinet ministers were associated with it? --- Well, I don t know. I don t remember that. Anyway it was there that you heard Mr. Bernstein speak? --- Yes. BY MR. CHASKELSON TO COURT: My lord there is one thing. It s been impossible to obtain instructions on that part of the witness evidence which refers to Mr. Harmel. It may possibly be necessary to ask him to come back at a later stage, if that turns out to be material to be disputed. My lord, I don t 10 know whether it will or not, but I thought I should mention it at this stage. MR. BERRANGE: No questions. RE-EXAMINATION BY DR. YUTAR: Mr. Jelliman, I don t know whether you mentioned yesterday whether Mr. Bernstein was one of the speakers on the City Hall steps or the Trade Halls Union. Do you know if Mr. Bernstein was one of the speakers? --- Yes, several occasions. 20 Mr. Bernstein was one of the speakers? --- He was one of the speakers. You knew him well? --- No, not particularly. How often had you heard him there? --- I can t remember now. It was several times, that s all I can say. Now did you ever see him at Rivonia? Once I think. And what did he do there on that occasion? --- Well, I don t know anything about what anybody did there. Now you said yesterday, and you repeated it here today, you think he paid you and your salary on one occasion? --- Yes. 30 Can you give us a bit more detail where the payment took place? --- That I don t remember at all. Was it at Rivonia or away from Rivonia? --- Rivonia,
- 16 - V.P. JELLIMAN.. yes. At Rivonia? --- Yes. As far as you can remember, have you any doubt about it? --- Well, I can t as far as I remember, I m not sure that he did, but I don t know. DR. YUTAR: No further questions. ---------------------------------
C E R T I F I C A T E I, the undersigned, hereby certify that the aforegoing is a true and correct transcript to the best of my ability, of the evidence of V.P. JELLIMAN, recorded by mechanical means, in the matter of: THE STATE versus NELSON MANDELA AND OTHERS. A.H. VERMEULEN, TRANSCRIBING OFFICER. COLLECTION NAME: COLLECTION NUMBER: ITEM NUMBER: DOCUMENT: Rivonia Trial Collection AD1844 A30b12 Mbeki (Personal position) LEGAL NOTICES This document is part of a private collection, the Rivonia Trial Collection, donated to Historical Papers at The University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg. Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner. Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational noncommercial use only. Because of the possibility of human and mechanical error as well as other factors, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website.