Wednesday, 4 November 2015 Global Markets Forum An exclusive, interactive, live forum managed by experienced Reuters journalists. Mark Juergensmeyer, Professor of Sociology and Global Studies, University of California, Santa Barbara Mark, an American Scholar in religious studies and sociology, is a writer best known for his studies of religious violence and global religion. He also writes on conflict resolution and on South Asian religion and society, and is a pioneer in the field of global studies. On Wednesday, November 18, Global Markets Forum welcomed Mark Juergensmeyer, Professor of Sociology and Global Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara, to chat about the terror attacks in Paris, the strength of Islamic State, how it appeals to multiple and varied groups and how the world can counter this movement. Mark said, "Do not blame religion or Islam for what is happening." He also said that the only way that Islamic State will end is "if the moderate Sunni Arabs that support it will turn against it. And that will happen only if the governments in Baghdad and Damascus are more open to involving Sunni Arabs and don't treat them like second class citizens."
HERE S THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE CHAT April Yu GMF Member 2 GMF Member 3 GMF Member 3 GMF Member 5 Hi, this is Mark Juergensmeyer logging on from California Hello Mark HI Thank you for joining us Hello Mark - welcome to GMF My pleasure Folks time to welcome our Guest for the day Hi Mark. Thanks for joining us! A real Honour. I have one eye on the television-- unfolding events in Paris right now How does the world and Islam fight ISIS Ideologically Yes Mark, seems to be getting worse unfortunately Right- to 's question. Why did you immediately say "ideologically"? Because that's more in your area perhaps hi, good morning Professor... I guess my question is... what's the end game? how does each side view the end of the conflict? And that's what it will take well yes and no. My task is to try to get inside the mindset of individuals and groups that are involved in violent situations in which religion is a factor So part of this mindset is ideological but much of it is not Would the current rhetoric by the US politicians (mostly Republicans) further marginalize the Muslim community which is probably what ISIS wants to be West vs. Muslim world? This summer I was in Kurdistan in Northern Iraq interviewing refugees from ISIS in order to try to understand the movement. Given ISIS's birth is from marginalized Sunni as well. GMF Member 3 that's a good question but let's hold off for a moment while I finish responding to. But GMF Member 3 what you said in your second sentence is absolutely correct- ISIS feeds on the marginalization of Sunni Arabs in western Iraq and in Syria So much of the appeal of ISIS in the region is simply a matter of human dignity- giving Sunni Arabs in Iraq and Syria a sense of belonging, that they are not the second class citizens that the leaders in Baghdad and Damascus have dismissed them as being But there is also an ideological appeal- Makes a lot of sense. Does youthful desire for meaning and action drive ISIS in the West? Hi Mark especially to another groups of marginalized people-- young Muslim guys in immigrant communities in the ME, No Africa, Europe and even the US Hi Mark
Hi GMF Member 5 GMF Member 5 GMF Member 6 GMF Member 2 GMF Member 7 GMF Member 7 GMF Member 8 GMF Member 5 is the feud between Sunni and Shia so intense that they have formed their own groups with helpdesk n stuff Just explaining ISIS's multiple appeals when do you see this "lava" cool and settle down Entire blame cannot be put the Nato allies for the second gulf war for the ultimate formation of the ISIS. Radicalization it seems is a part of their society. But how do we counter them? I don't think that there is anything necessarily antithetical about Sunni and Shi'a perspectives-- it's a matter of political identity. In other words, the Sunni Arabs hate the Shi'a leaders in Baghdad not because they are Shi'a but because they exclude Sunnis from power. (though al Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS, has made this an ideological issue by waging a war against Shi'a on theological grounds). What I'm saying is that there are several levels of ISIS membership and involvement, and the appeal is different for different groups Isn t at the heart of most religious conflict emerging from the fact that religious groups are claiming political identities? when in fact most constitutions ask for a separation of religion and politics? So all of this is relevant to what has happened in Paris on Friday GMF Member 2 you're right Mark.. Are you saying that ISIS differentially appeals to different groups of people? That this is their planned strategy? that would make ISIS much harder to neutralize ideologically than mainstream political leaders make it appear in this respect, Obama s post G20 comments were quite interesting But in a vacuum of power, as in Iraq after Saddam Hussain, then religious identities become politicized GMF Member 7, yes. But there is good news here, since the moderate Sunni Arabs who support ISIS not for ideological reasons but for access to political power could turn against ISIS on a dime. They did that one before in 2008 during the awakening movement when they turned against Al Qaeda in Iraq Hi Mark, how is that these groups ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Qaeda manage to get weapons? Do they get help from specific countries? GMF Member 8, each group is different. In the case of ISIS a lot of the weapons come from weapons caches in captured territories in Iraq. Mosul for instance had tons of old US armament ISIS also buys weapons on the black market from money it gets from selling its oil through Turkey. And it gets the money in US cash. That's what they use to pay their soldiers. why is it difficult to stop their financial power why did the European countries allow such influx of refugees when there was always suspicion in the background what made the refugees flock to only Europe and not Arab countries I was told by refugees this summer that the going rate is $1000 / month for wages for an ISIS soldier Which is twice what the Iraq army pays. So a lot of ISIS soldiers are just in it for the money Hmm, interesting. Never looked at it from a financial perspective
So not everyone is brain-washed is it? GMF Member 6 GMF Member 6 GMF Member 5 GMF Member 9 GMF Member 3 yeah- so ISIS is vulnerable on several levels Seems as if they're are many ISIS'es then Entire blame cannot be put the Nato allies for the second gulf war for the ultimate formation of the ISIS. Radicalization it seems is a part of their society. But how do we counter them? No, not everyone is brainwashed by a long shot. But a lot of the beheadings are done in ISIS held territories to intimidate their own people and keep them from even thinking about turning against it where does ISIS get all the money from? any specific regions? I have read some reports that the beheadings are done slowly while the victim is still alive.just like during medieval times(and not in one go).this simply to terrorize everyone what happens to ISIS if the "Caliph" is eliminated - do they have 2nd line of leaders - To GMF Member 5's question Sure- al Baghdadi is expendable I think the only way that ISIS will end is if the moderate Sunni Arabs that support it will turn against it And that will happen only if the govts in Baghdad and Damascus are more open to involving Sunni Arabs in their govts and don't treat them like 2nd class citizens hen ISIS would fall like a house of cards Sir what s your view on Putin s statement about ISIS most of the countries funding ISIS for their security GMF Member 3 s Question "Would the current rhetoric by the US politicians (mostly Republicans) further marginalize the Muslim community which is probably what ISIS wants to be West vs. Muslim world?" To GMF Member 3: Yes The Islamophobic reactions to the Paris attacks play into the hands of ISIS. It's exactly what they hoped. should the West + Russia be going down the political road (to Damascus and Baghdad) then? instead of mindlesslely bombing the region?? After all, ISIS is really doing badly these days-- it is losing ground, Sinjar has fallen to the Kurds, their main supply route between Rakka and Mosul has been shut off, their volunteer suicide attackers are leaving the movement in droves. So they needed something to make them look powerful, attract the volunteers back, and goad Western politicians in Europe and the US into anti-muslim rhetoric that will make ISIS look like it is defending the Muslim world The Shia Sunni rift seems lie the Israel/Pal rift Can Sunni's do it without political change in the region The stupidest thing is prohibiting Syrian refugees i.e. defeat ISIS in a meaningful way These are victims of ISIS and by denying them a place the ISIS position is enhanced. but then it increases security risk I agree 1 in 100 might be influenced by ISIS Totally agree Mark. thank you. but still that one carries a risk To GMF Member 9: Well, there is something to it, Putin's statement, but just something. It is true that Turkey, for eg, has
benefitted economically by oil from ISIS But I don't think it's a major issue To Why are refugees a security risk? Because one guy among the 7 killed on Friday was apparently among the refugees? If ISIS fighters want to come to Europe or the US there are a lot of ways they can do it, they don't need to ban refugees. And in the US, potential refugees are vetted for 2 years before then can enter. So there is no reason to deny refugees in the US. There is a bigger threat that denying refugees will anger young Muslim refugees and members of immigrant communities in Europe and the US and encourage them to join ISIS. ok thanks mark To : I agree, there needs to be political change In fact that's the only thing that will end ISIS. Bombing will contain the movement and weaken it, but not crush it. 0 1 2 ISIS will fall only from within-- if its supporters don't support it anymore And they will do that only if they feel they have other political options And they will do that only if they feel they have other political options (That's true of Palestine as well, by the way) Historically the violence of the Church was curbed by detaching government from religion. Can this be done in West Asia & Middle East? To Divya: yes. I think Iran and Russia are key to the solution with ISIS Because they have influence over Syria, and in the case of Iran, influence over Iraq. Bombing can contain ISIS, as I said, and probably weaken it. Rakka might be destroyed. But the ISIS movement will not end until its supporters find a better political option in Syria and Iraq. And that's why Russia and Iran are so important Russia should spend less time bombing things and more time persuading the Syrian govt to change, cut a deal with the Sunni Arabs, form a unity govt (and probably get rid of Assad) Sir does all the current mess in Middle East tied to US muscle memory of Cold war in which it basically supported GCC countries and opposed secular despots like Assad, Saddam and to a certain extent Gadaffi... I mean does Washington deep state has unfinished Cold war agenda. 0, it's a good question. I think religion is only partly involved in the current conflict. It's true that the ISIS leadership adopts an extreme medieval Islamic ideology But the masses of implicit supporters are doing so only for social and political reasons So I think there could be a political solution in which the religious aspects of ISIS are ignored How will the European countries adjust with so many refugees, culturally and ideologically wide apart, in an open society. Do you see conditions developing in the European societies which may lead to civil war type of conditions good question 2 3 many of Syrians migrating are educated I believe skilled too apparently isn't it scary that people even in today's scenario are still getting attracted towards medieval ideologies But I think it's also true that there will have to be a resurgence of traditional Muslim leadership in the Sunni Arab regions to replace ISIS' religious influence
GMF Member 4 GMF Member 2 2 1 ISIS has been killing the traditional Muslim leaders in its territory, alas. Professor, could sanctioning countries supporting ISIS financially/arms be a solution? Your question is-- should we try to keep countries from providing ISIS with weapons? hi Mark, would you say a lot of problem in these countries is lack of formal education and opportunities? Sure, though it can buy them on the black market as long as it has money And ISIS has money as long as it has control of the oil fields and refineries So its oil infrastructure has been a target for bombing, and this has been pretty effective ISIS is running out of money, along with its other problems I know it doesn't look like it in Paris, but ISIS is not doing so well. That's why the Paris attacks were a big morale booster for them. And to think, it took only 8 guys 1, this was certainly true during the Geo W Bush administration of neo-cons I think Obama is more sophisticated. Though the US still has not gotten use to the fact that in a global world of decentralized power the old superpowers can t change things solely with military might. And perhaps they never could. But especially not now Aside from the middle east where do you see religion growing as an major influence on society? Does religion still cause societal changes like that 'old time religion did? but giving political representation now... to these people who are supporters of ISIS... wont that create a roadmap for other groups to take up mass violence as a route to political capital? 2, good question. European countries are not used to national communities been made up of multicultural groups. The US is better at that, but even in the US there is a lot of immigrant-bashing, and the US is a country created by immigrants! But in Europe, it's even more of a problem. One of the reasons why the attacks this week come from France and Belgium is because those two countries treat immigrants so badly, especially from the Muslim countries of the ME, No Africa and So Asia Spain is better. After the Madrid train attacks several years ago, one of the responses of the Spanish government was to try to integrate the No African immigrant Muslim community more closely to Spanish society. And I think it has worked to some extent. There hasn't been a terrorist attack in Spain since. This is what France needs to do. Stop bombing and working on a political solution in Syria/'Iraq, and start treating its Muslim immigrants with more respect Thanks but France has highest Muslim population in Europe that means they are comfortable and treated nicely there Mark is it not ironical that ISIS receive most of the moral, financial and weapons from US allies in the region like Saudi Arabia Qatar UAE (GCC) and their declared enemy are relatively agnostic regimes of Lebanon Syria and Iraq all anathema to US foreign policy... Why does USA not act more forcefully with GCC countries and cut the problem at its source? 4, on education and opportunities: certain a lack of opportunities is a problem. IN Belgium the unemployment rate among immigrant Muslim young people is around 50%. If you have no hope of a job, and in a country that treats you and your culture badly, the appeal of ISIS doesn't look so bad Well- it has the highest percentage of Muslims because of its colonial relationship with Algeria. But I've been in those Algerian immigrant neighbourhoods in Paris. They're slums
And don't forget the uprising a couple of years ago in Paris when young Muslim immigrant kids went on a rampage, lighting police cars on fire, breaking into govt buildings, etc. And the laws against wearing a headscarf are regarded as an insult to Islam. if the situation is so bad there in terms of employment..how do they manage to hang in there Charlie Hebdo cartoons were an insult to Islam, and the immigrant Algerian Muslim community took it personally: it was an insult to them Mark might not be able to answer any more questions folks.. sorry if yours is missed out To : Well, I don't think people are getting more religious In fact in many ways people are getting less religious in terms of personal piety, even in Muslim and other traditional societies 2 5 3 But religion is becoming more politicized, and politics religion-ized, in a global world where the European Enlightenment's idea of the secular nation-state, and secular nationalism, is under siege. Look at India- the BJP is arguably the largest religious nationalist party in the world, and under Nehru India was supposed to be a pillar of secularism Final Thoughts I guess my main take away is to not blame religion for what is happeningand not Islam- but rather the weakening of secular nationalism in the global era Which makes possible the rise of new political movements for which religion is a mark of identity. So the solution to the problems of this kind of religious extremism is not to oppose their religion but to look for political solutions This is a wrong popular perception about BJP. Moreover our Constitution is very liberal and inclusive, and can take care of diverse cultural groups thanks a lot for joining in and sharing all these insights with us Mark.. it was really great chatting with you Thanks Thank you so much Mark, This was awesome Thanks everyone for all your questions Apologies if some got left out Very informative chat. Thanks Mark for the perspective and the GMF admins for arranging it Thanks Mark ABOUT THE GLOBAL MARKETS FORUM IF YOU RE IN THE MARKETS, YOU SHOULD BE IN HERE The Global Markets Forum is Thomson Reuters flagship editorial forum, an innovative, private community for financial markets professionals hosted on Thomson Reuters Eikon Messenger. The world s first macro, cross-asset class, cross-regional community, the forum surfaces the most critical market topics, the widest range of views, and hosts the most influential guest voices, in real-time. Hear peer opinion, take market temperature, and discover new connections: the Global Markets Forum offers content, conversation, and networking all in one place. Check out the up to date topics, events & LiveChat with our weekly featured guests: GMF Week Ahead (pdf)
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