An Interview with KENT CURTIS OH Conduted by Jak Minker on November National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland Charles Babbage Institute Center for the History of Information Tehnology University of Minnesota, Minneapolis Copyright, Charles Babbage Institute
.0 das NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION An INTERVIEW WITH KENT CURTIS by JACK MINKER on NOVEMBER, (THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS PREPARED FROM A TAPE RECORDING.) --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
Prefae On September, a large group of omputer professionals and sientifi olleagues met in Washington, D.C. at a dinner to honor Kent Curtis, who had stepped down as Division Diretor, Computer and Computation Researh of the National Siene Foundation (NSF). Kent had been at the NSF sine and had relinquished his position as he was ritially ill with aner. My wife and I were honored to be seated at the same dinner table with Kent, his wife Herte, and their two hildren, Celia and Katie. While talking with Kent, I proposed that he write his memoirs desribing his experienes at NSF. I believed that it would be important to the sientifi ommunity to have his perspetive of how omputer siene beame a signifiant sientifi endeavor in the United States. I told Kent that I believed that he, Sam Alexander of the National Bureau of Standards and John Pasta at the National Siene Foundation were the key people in the United States government who played major roles in enhaning omputer siene and tehnology. In his usual modest style he responded that he was merely a government bureaurat and would not have muh to say. I assured him that the attendees at the dinner did not believe that and, as a past Chairman of the National Siene Foundation Advisory Committee on Computing, I knew of the important ontributions he made in making the United States the leading ountry in the world in omputer siene. Kent's wife, Herte, and their two hildren agreed with me and enouraged him to write his memoirs. Realizing that he ould not write easily in his weakened ondition, I offered to interview him and tape reord his memoirs. Kent agreed to this and said that he would let me know when his health permitted him to do so. Following the dinner I phoned Kent several times to see if he was able to be interviewed. His health did not permit it. Finally, on November,, I interviewed him in his sik bed at the National Institutes of Health. The text that follows this prefae is a faithful transript of a tape reording of that interview. The tape reording an be made available to interested individuals. Kent was very pleased that we had begun to do the reordings and was anxious to ontinue. We spoke about how to obtain funds to transribe the tapes. Dr. Judith Sunley, Division Diretor
for Mathematial Siene at the NSF suggested that the historian of the NSF, Dr. George Mazuzan would be able to have the tapes transribed. Dr. Mazuzan agreed as he believed it would be important for a history of omputer siene at the NSF. Kent was very pleased to learn that the tapes would be transribed. Following my first interview I tried, on several oasions, to ontinue interviewing Kent. Unfortunately, his health had deteriorated and we were unable to meet again. I was greatly saddened when Herte phoned me to tell me that Kent died on Deember,. The omputer siene ommunity lost an outstanding man who had raised the level of omputer siene in the United States to be the envy of the world. I was saddened to lose both a olleague and a friend. I regret that we ould not have ompleted the interviews we had planned. I hope that this transript will be the impetus for a history of Kent Curtis' ontributions to omputer siene in the United States, and for a history of support for omputer siene at the National Siene Foundation. I would like to thank George Mazuzan, for help in having the tape transribed. I would also like to thank Y.T. Chien and Andy Molnar of the NSF for their support, and Judy Sunley for introduing me to George Mazuzan. Jak Minker, Professor Department of Computer Siene and Institute for Advaned Computer Studies University of Maryland College Park, Maryland February,
0 0,MSF/lg ( PROCEEDINGS JACK MINKER: November, ', : a.m. This is Jak Minker speaking to Kent Curtis at the National Institute of Health. Were going to speak about Kent's role in the National Siene Foundation in building up the omputer siene ativity in the United States government. Kent is one of the early people in this field. He, together with several other people, were the key ones instrumental in the government in pushing omputer siene, and these are Sam Alexander of the National Bureau of Siene, John Pasta of the National Siene Foundation, and Kent Curtis. Others have also been important^ partiularly several people at the Defense Advane Researh Projet Ageny^ but more towards one aspet of omputer siene, than overall omputer siene ativity. What I'd like to explore today is when Kent started at the National Siene Foundation, where he was before he ame to the National Siene Foundation, and partiularly the early days of omputer siene at the NSF. So why don't we start by you telling me, Kent, where you were before you ame to the National Siene Foundation. MR. CURTIS: Before oming to the National Siene Foundation, I was at the University of California at Berkeley as division diretor for their Division of Computer Researh and Applied Mathematis. This inluded operations --00 Nationwide Coverage 00-.
0 0 ( MSF/lg of a super omputer enter omprising CDC 00 omputers for use in high energy physis, nulear physis, nulear biology, all aspets of researh, natural sienes researh involving nulei. It also inluded researh and development of a great deal of real time operating systems for use in experimental systems for natural sienes. Small omputers suh as the DEC PDP-, PDP-, had just ome on the horizon in the early 0s, and the Department of Energy, formerly the Atomi Energy Commission's laboratories at Brookhaven, at Berkeley, at Livermore, at Los Alamos, and others, were very instrumental in developing these small omputers into real time ontrol systems for doing physial experiments. So it was out of this kind of a bakground that I ame to the National Siene Foundation. JACK MINKER: When did you go to the National Siene Foundation? MR. CURTIS: It was in the summer of. JACK MINKER: And why did you leave Berkeley to go to the National Siene Foundation? MR. CURTIS: Well there was a mixture of reasons: the opportunity presented itself, and that was the most important. Prior to that time, the National Siene Foundation had really paid little attention to omputer siene, and support for omputer siene, suh as it was, --00 Nationwide Coverage (X)--A
0 0 ^SF/lg ame through the Mathematis Division or Mathematis Setion of the Siene Foundation, and onsisted of two forms: one was a support for a small number, possibly a total of about a million dollars a year of researh projets in largely theoretial omputer siene and numerial analysis. The seond was support for the expansion of omputing enters at universities for support of the use of omputing in researh in all of the sienes. Now this was important in omputer siene beause it provided the first experimental equipment whih the omputer sientists had to use in researh in their own field. JACK MINKER: Did that happen before you started? MR. CURTIS: Yes. That happened before I started. JACK MINKER: Who was instrumental in that ativity? MR. CURTIS: The person who deserves greatest redit, I think, for that partiular ativity is Arthur Grad, who was in Mathematis at National Siene Foundation for some years, and saw the need for developing that kind of ativity, but the inspiration for that, I thinky goes diretly bak to John Von Neumann, who was on the board of the National Siene Foundation in the 0s, and who pushed ;' \, the Foundation very hard to get involved, and to help the universities get involved in the use of omputers for --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 KISF/lg researh. JACK MINKER: I see. That's interesting. I had : not known about that personally. Where is Arthur Grad from, and where is he now? MR. CURTIS: I don't know, I'd have to review the history on that. JACK MINKER: Okay. And was Arthur Grad in harge of the Mathematis Division, or was he -- MR. CURTIS: He was at one point, yes. JACK MINKER: He was at one point I see. And he was your boss at the time? MR. CURTIS: No. I never did interset with him. He had left the Foundation before I ame. JACK MINKER: I see. And who did you ome to work for? MR. CURTIS: I ame to work for Milt Rose. JACK MINKER: Oh, Milt Rose was there at that time? MR. CURTIS: That's orret. JACK MINKER: I see. And, so Milt was the head of the Mathematis MR. CURTIS: That's well, let me make it a little more preise. The two programs I mentioned whih were supporting both omputer siene had started under Mathematis, under the diretion of Art Grad, and then Grad had left some two or three or four years earlier, and I --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0,"SF/lg ( ( ame. And had been replaed by a suession of people^ one of whom was Milt Rose. But also during this period of time, a report had been prepared under the diretion of John Piere of Bell Laboratories. JACK MINKER: Yes. MR. CURTIS: And this was alled the Piere Report. It was a report that John Kemeny of Dartmouth was very instrumental in shaping and in writing, I believe, and advoated that the federal government make omputer literay at the ollege level a very high priority item for its development of siene and engineering eduation researh. JACK MINKER: What year was this? MR. CURTIS: This was about the year. JACK MINKER: And you were there at the time? MR. CURTIS: I was not yet there at that time. JACK MINKER: You ame in '? MR. CURTIS: That's orret. JACK MINKER: I see. MR. CURTIS: Now, the politial ontext of that report^ you must remember then, it was published in the winter of ' welly the aademi year of '-'. That was Vietnam war, not quite yet fully blown, but leading up to the period of the ' eletion period, and you know, inreasing diffiulty with that whole area. It was the period in whih the government was not --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 ' ^SF/lg sure it ould have guns and butterr and was beginning to wonder how it ould onstrain itself, where it ould onstrain itself; and so this report ame forth at a time when there was a great deal of onern about the eonomi stability on the one hand, and there was still some ivil onern about, and perhaps trepidation, I don't know, about omputing tehnology, and its impat on people and soiety, and for someorie to ome forth and advoate that our government invest several hundred million dollars a year pushing omputer literay was really quite a radial statement. JACK MINKER: What was the outome of the report? MR. CURTIS: The outome of the report largely was that the National Siene Foundation was given the task of responding. The government as suh did not respond, but the Offie of Management and Budgeting assigned that response to National Siene Foundation. NSF formed a new offie, alled the Offie of Computing Ativities, whih reported diretly to Lee Hayworth, who was the Diretor of the Foundation at the time. JACK MINKER: I seer it was not under Mathematis. MR. CURTIS: No longer under Mathematis. JACK MINKER: That's interesting, beause several years later it beame part of Mathematis again. MR. CURTIS: That's true. --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 ^TSF/lg ( JACK MINKER: Okay. So what happened then? Who beame who was put in harge of this ativity to run it and be head of it? MR. CURTIS: Milt Rose was named head of this offie JACK MINKER: But he was in Mathematis. MR. CURTIS: He was in Mathematis, but he had been very onerned, very interested in this whole development. JACK MINKER: I see. MR. CURTIS: And so when this offie was reated, Lee Hayworth appointed him as head of that offie. JACK MINKER: I see. This is in '. MR. CURTIS: This was in JACK MINKER: '. MR. CURTIS: '. JACK MINKER: ', and MR. CURTIS: And Milt then offered me the position to ome help get the offie formed/ and take the position of Setion Head for Institutional Computing Servies. JACK MINKER: I see. MR. CURTIS: Whih was the large program that undertook to expand ampus omputing enters. JACK MINKER: That was a tremendously important -.00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0,"SF/lg ( ativity, beause the universities were wasteland with respet to departments having any equipment. That's what really started the impetus, not only departments, but the universities as a whole generally didn't have equipment. MR. CURTIS: That's true. JACK MINKER: I know we at Maryland reeived a grant from NASA to get our equipment; it may have been partially supported by the National Siene Foundation. I ertainly know that it was NASA at the University of Maryland. MR. CURTIS: I think we made a grant in Maryland. JACK MINKER: (Inaudible) to us. Yes. MR. CURTIS: It ertainly was. It was a very important program throughout the ountry, I think. And it's had a substantial influene, not only in getting the universities at the undergraduate level deeply involved, but also in establishing the neessity of omputing, so that the universities aepted that as part of their own neessary budgeting onerns. JACK MINKER: Yes. MR. CURTIS: And JACK MINKER: That was part of your initiative? MR. CURTIS: That was part of it. JACK MINKER: You inaist that the universities also ontribute? --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 ^SF/lg MR. CURTIS: Right, right. JACK MINKER: That's good. MR. CURTIS: That was built into it from the very beginning, ( JACK MINKER: And that was your idea? MR. CURTIS: I'm not sure. That was, I think, part of the Foundation's idea. I'm sorry. JACK MINKER: That's the hole, that you're speaking in. MR. CURTIS: Oh, I'm sorry. JACK MINKER: Okay, go ahead. MR. CURTIS: No, I think that was built into these grants from the very beginning before I had anything to do with it. JACK MINKER: I see, and what grants were you instrumental in, and to what universities were given the grants of this kind? MR. CURTIS: Oh, I an remember several, but I don't remember all by any means. JACK MINKER: Just the ones that you remember will be useful. MR. CURTIS: Let's see. University of Prineton. JACK MINKER: Prineton University. MR. CURTIS: Prineton, Illinois who else? I'm not sure, really Jak. This slips my mind. --00 Naiionwide Coverage 00--
0 0 MSF/lg JACK MINKER: Sure. Okay. MR. CURTIS: We gave twenty or so the first year I was there. JACK MINKER: I see. MR. CURTIS: The range of -- well, let me put it in different ontext when the offie was begun in summer of 'y this was the start of fisal year, whih at that time» the government's fisal year began in July st. JACK MINKER: It has slipped sine then. MR. CURTIS: Yes, it did. The government's the budget for this offie was about twenty-two million dollars. JACK MINKER: Yes. MR. CURTIS: For all of the ativities of this offie. Now the (break in tape) reated, and whih he put Milt in harge of, omprised several ativities. This institution of omputing servies ativity was one of them, and that had a budget of something like ten million or so. JACK MINKER: Yes. MR. CURTIS: Then there was an Offie of Eduational Appliations this is what it says, of omputers. JACK MINKER: Who was in harge of that? MR. CURTIS: Arthur Melmed was put in harge of that. And he subsequently left the Foundation to go the --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 ( MSF/lg ( National Institutes of Eduation and then on stayed there and retired about a year ago. JACK MINKER: I see. MR. CURTIS: Another setion was one on -- alled Eduation JACK MINKER: Does that help? MR. CURTIS: Yes. Was one alled JACK MINKER: Go ahead. MR. CURTIS: All right. Another one was alled Eduation, Researh and Training Setion, and that onerned itself with the questions of how to train more faulty, more undergraduates, more graduate students, in developing problems for their use of omputers^ in developing urriula for their use of teahing omputers^ in teahing, and a variety of ativities of this sort. JACK MINKER: Who was in harge of that? MR. CURTIS: Let's see. I think Tom Gallie was atually, from Duke University. JACK MINKER: I see. MR. CURTIS: I'm not absolutely sure. JACK MINKER: And did this support the ACM urriulum? MR. CURTIS: It may have. JACK MINKER: It may have. MR. CURTIS: But I don't know for sure. These --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 SF/lg are things we ould look up. It's easy to reover that paper (Inaudible). JACK MINKER: Sure, sure. Okay. MR. CURTIS: Then there was another flier, sort of an independent offies kind of thing. Fred Weingarten, and Fred was at that time then a person diretly responsible for supportive researh in omputer researh. JACK MINKER: Yes. MR. CURTIS: And his program ame to something less than a million dollars a year. JACK MINKER: Less than a million for researh, oh my. That's something -- MR. CURTIS: And then after being there for a year and a half, aboutr perhaps it's less, I hanged my role in the offie, but it omplete the role as you note that Glen Ingram, who is now at the National Bureau of Standards, was Deputy Diretor of this offie JACK MINKER: Yes. MR. CURTIS: And then, I guess a year after the offie was formed^ I hanged my role and beame Donald Aufenkamp ame to the Foundation, and he beame head of this Institution of Computing Servies setion, and I swithed over and took over the task of being head of what was alled the Researh, Eduation and Training, -- or something like that JACK MINKER: So you ombined --00 Nationwide Coverage (X)--
0 0 ( "SF/lg MR. CURTIS: We ombined some things. JACK MINKER: Weingarten was then reporting to you? MR. CURTIS: Yeah, right. JACK MINKER: And whoever was in Eduation MR. CURTIS: No, Arthur did not. So Eduation got out of it. I think that was it. That was an internal matter within NSF. The Eduation Diretor at NSF felt that it should be responsible for the eduational appliations. JACK MINKER: I see, then having it under Computer Sienes. MR. CURTIS: That's orret. JACK MINKER: So it was pulled out of that. MR. CURTIS: So it was pulled out. So Fred Weingarten did report to me in that instane, but Weingarten, I mean Helmed did not. He moved over to the Eduation party and then on over to the National Institutes of Eduation itself* Then» well there's some oalesing ativities. In some respets there was substantially lower budget, but a wider range of responsibilities, and my pereption in doing that was basially that the Computer Servies, the Institution of Computer Servies part of the Foundation's programs was not going to inrease in the future, and that's the subjet worth talking some about, I think. JACK MINKER: Yes, okay. --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0,MSF/lg. f MR. CURTIS: And that JACK MINKER: Why don't you expand on that? MR. CURTIS: All right. Why don't we mark that for the future? JACK MINKER: Later we'll ome bak to the oordinated experimental researh initiative whih relates to this very muh. MR. CURTIS: But that, it was my pereption indeed that Computer Siene as a siene was going to beome important, an intelletual feature of our whole landsape, and that it was important and that I would like very muh to beome assoiated with that development. JACK MINKER: As indeed, you have been the key person in the United States, in my opinion, in that area. MR. CURTIS: That's why I hose to make that kind of a move at that point. JACK MINKER: That was very astute judgment at the time, yes. MR. CURTIS: Why don't we stop for a seond? JACK MINKER: Okay, sure. (End of Side A.) JACK MINKER: (Inaudible), :0 a.m., and this is Jak Minker speaking with Kent Curtis, and we're going to pik up on some of the items that we spoke about a half hour ago. --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 /tsf/lg MR. CURTIS: Let's pik up on some of the questions involving the Institution of Computing Serviesy for whih NSF gave support to universities throughout the ountry, expanding omputing enters, so that they ould be more effetive in supportive researh in all areas of siene and engineering, natural sienes, soial sienes, and all. And indeed^ the support for humanities and arts and letters that was provided at universities also ame -- (^r<*k >'i ^») "'program/ through the provision of equipment^ but made the equipment available for researh in those areas. One of the roots of that program lay indeed in the pereption by John ( ( Von Neumann, that omputing was going to be a fundamental tool of researh in all areas of siene and engineering and that the universities should beome involved in training, not only in the way they ondut their researh, but in the way they ondut their eduational ativities, and the way they train their students, and that students should grow up with the bakground of having omputing as a natural tool, that they have among their repertoire tools for solving problems, as they ome to them. And it was for this purpose that the Foundation was enouraged by Van Neumann and by those who followed him, to establish this kind of a program, and the program was established first in the mid 0s, or latter part of the --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 /\SF/lg 0 0s. I think the first awards were made perhaps in ' or '. And it gradually grew through the period of the next ten years, until at the time I took it, in the summer of, it was an ativity of about ten or eleven million dollars a year, and it was an ativity that truly spanned the whole spetrum of sienes. The institutional proposals ame from the institutions, not from a department^ not from an individual, but really from the institution requesting support for omputing for the use of the whole institution, and for the use of the institution primarily in researh, but also in eduation and others. It was expeted that the institution would arry a substantial portion of the budget right from the beginning. It was also of ourse expeted that ompany disounts on equipment pries would be important. But these were never onsidered as part of the institutional ontribution. These were onsidered as disounts. JACK MINKER: How did the universities reat to having to put up their own money? MR. CURTIS: Some of them objeted very strenuously. JACK MINKER: Why did they objet? MR. CURTIS: Well» let's see. I guess in part some of them objeted beause they objeted to paying their own way. One very prestigious university in our ountry --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--AA
0 0 ^SF/lg JACK MINKER: Could you mention whih one it was? MR. CURTIS: No, I won't mention whih one it was. ( JACK MINKER: (Inaudible). MR. CURTIS: But it was one said that we did not beome great by paying our own money for omputing, and they felt that way about other things, not just omputers. They '-'.id not beome great by paying their own money for anything. JACK MINKER: That's interesting-a self- serving attitude. MR. CURTIS: Well it establishes, you know, a ertain relationship, or onfirms a ertain relationship between the university and the federal government. JACK MINKER: Yes, indeed. MR. CURTIS: And it's not a viable relationship. JACK MINKER: Did anyone objet beause they weren't sure they saw the importane of omputing MR. CURTIS: Oh, I'm sure, yes. There are a variety of reasons for onern, unertainty in about all of these areas. The area was new. There was many reasons why the institutional people needed or would like to have had better stability and better assurane about the osts and ost ontrols. What they -- often in these instanes they were sold a program for institutional omputing servies, getting a omputer enter, getting it established, expanded, --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 ( NSF/lg maybe smaller omputers hooked in, in some sort of a loal network way. We had set up a program level of this based on the assumption that they would be paid forr many of these osts by researh reharges, to grants and ontrats. But in fat the federal government did not ome through. In many ases, with those researh monies. And so the university was left holding the bill. They had very good reason for onern. They were as a onsequene often a defiit item. Sometimes, only on rare oasions am I aware of the defiit having run so high that it beame embarassing and unsupportable, and somebody would be fired as a onsequene. But that also happens. that. JACK MINKER: Is that right? I'm not aware of MR. CURTIS: So money is a very diffiult area. Well, another aspet of this whole business was the Piere Report on omputer literay and making the omputer literay a high priority objetive of the federal government. It inreased the emphasis on teahing, on the relationship with the teahing omputing and far beyond what it had been before. JACK MINKER: Do you think that many people objet to the government supporting eduation, it should be done at the loal levels? Would any of this happened in the -- or not an impetus from National Siene Foundation, that is the tremendous burgeoning of omputer siene in the --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 <"SF/lg shools? ( MR. CURTIS: That's a good question. I really don't know. I really don't know. I think at the same time while many people objet to federal ontrol of what's taught in the shools, many people do not objet to federal support of shool ost, and if they ould find a way to let these two slip by -- one by the other -- and the same thing is true in universities in Germany in fat, sine World War II, in the German onstitution, the federal government annot ontrol eduation in Germany. That has to be a state ontrolled ativity. And as a onsequene of that, it may establish a university and designate it as a major university in field X, say, of whih omputer siene has been one in some instanes. The assumption is and expliitly must be (Inaudible) that that university will take over full budgetary responsibility for that ativity within five years or so. And, well, the same kind of thing an happen, and these kind of onstraints an be built in to relationships here. And as long as this an be done, people an get by with that as well. So it's never beome a onflit at that level, I think yet. JACK MINKER: Well, from my perspetive I think that the support from NSF was ruial in two regards: one, I annot both NSF and NASA, NASA should be given redit for --00 Nationwide Coverage 00-- ^
0 0 MSF/lg giving out omputers to universities also. MR. CURTIS: Yes. JACK MINKER: And I don't think that the university would have bought large omputers for many years without that kind of support and that kind of leadership, and I think that someone at the national level looking at the broader piture than the parohial loal level is extremely important for this nation, and I don't think that's deleted in the hands of the universities to do things. They're very slow moving; there's a lot of infrastruture built in and people don't want to give up their domain, and what do you do when a new area like omputer siene omes out? Where do you get the lines from? And it's a problem, and I think that the role of the government was ruial here to give omputers, and to also foster and push eduation and to give the impetus for doing these kinds of things that might not have been done for many years. MR. CURTIS: I think that's a very sound Ci'nAAAikle,^ pereption Jak. I really Shseh, I think our/periene whih, in the CER program, bears that out very strongly. JACK MIbiKER: Oh, absolutely. MR. CURTIS: And indeed it designed that program, had that in its mind from the very beginning, as you well know. JACK MINKER: Yes, we'll ome to that too. Yes, --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 MSF/lg although the CER was ritial, it brought the omputer siene departments whih were wasteland with respet to omputing, and not with respet to researh, but wastelands with respet to getting hands on worka-n^with omputers, the CER was very ritial and would never have been done at the university level. That I an guarantee you, and we'll talk about that and some of my experienes here and why I say it would never be done at the university level. That CER, I think, was an extremely important, major initiative, and I think that you were the man in harge of it and pushing it all the way in the government. At any rate that's for later on. Let's ome bak to the early days. MR. CURTIS: Well, okay, let me get bak here. I was pointing out that the Piere Report put more fous on the use of omputers in eduation. And on the role of government in supporting eduation, as opposed to researh itself. This was a matter of during the period of time now, of '. and ', a matter of very onsiderable importane to the government beause of the inreasing and steadily esalating osts involved in Vietnam and elsewhere. And the government simply thought it ould not support that. And this is why that whole offie, I think, was given to NSF, to the response to the Piere Report, whih had reated quite a stir. The response was to tell --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0,NSF/lg (' " NSF to do something appropriate within the budget that it had. JACK MINKER: Was the budget inreased at all? MR. CURTIS: No. JACK MINKER: It was in the budget. JACK MINKER: So where did the funding ome from? MR. CURTIS: Well, it ame out of a realignment of funds. You know -- that's one of the ways that priorities get assigned. JACK MINKER: Yes, but whih ativities lost the funds (Inaudible)? MR. CURT IS: I don't know the detail. JACK MINKER: And what was their reation? MR. CURTIS: Oh, I'm sure of their reation, if they were aware that they were the ones that lost. Now you an't always be aware. JACK MINKER: Yes, beause even starting a new ativity at the National Siene Foundation without more funds requires that someone loses, budget, as an infrastruture there as well as at the universitites that we just spoke about, and they don't want to lose their money any more than university people. MR. CURTIS: No, that's quite right, and so as a onsequeney it was simply, in terms of a net overall supportive siene, I would guess there was a net zero gain --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 ^"SF/lg 0 at that point. I don't know that for sure, but I would guess it's -- that net zero is probably not far off, but there was, by virtue of establishing something, there was some slight shift in priority, beause it gave omputing a priority it had not had to some degree. JACK MINKER: Now this was probably around,? MR. CURTIS: That's orret. The offie that I ame to join was established in the summer of ', and that's when I ame. That offie persisted untilr well, I don't know, three years or so, and Milt Rose was head of the offie for the first two years, and then Milt left the Foundation to go to Colorado State University, and John ame from the University of Illinois, and he beame head of the NSF Offie of Computing Researh, or Division of Computing Researh. JACK MINKER: It was a division. MR. CURTIS: It was a division of omputing researh, that's orret. JACK MINKER: He was not in Mathematis, he was just -- MR. CURTIS: At that time not. JACK MINKER: I see. MR. CURTIS: There were a lot of internal organizational details, I don't know how muh interest those are, but the first offie that John ame to, oh, what was --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 MSF/lg ( it? It was still the Offie of Computing Ativities; he was still reporting diretly to Hayworth. Hayworth was not entirely satisfied with that. But Hayworth of ourse was then dismissed, not dismissed, but his term as diretor of the Foundation expired. JACK MINKER: I see. MR. CURTIS: And it was at that point that there was some onfusion reated by Nixon's inability to find an appropriate replaement for Lee Hayworth. You may reall there was some negotiations with Long at Cornell. But that got mixed up in this supersoni airplane, and the endorsement or lak of endorsement of the supersoni plane by the president's siene advisor ommittee. JACK MINKER: The Commere Department was heading up a study on that. MR. CURTIS: Yes, something like that. I don't remember now the full details -- who was doing what, what have you. (Break in tape.) MR. CURTIS: It was finally felt by Nixon, I think, that this was advie that he didn't want, and he disregarded it. But it reated then a very hard feeling between him and members of the sientifi ommunity. JACK MINKER: I thought the judgment of the sientifi ommunity was not to go ahead with the supersoni airplane? --00 Nationwide Coverage 00-.
0 0,MSF/lg (, go ahead. MR. CURTIS: That's orret. And Nixon let them JACK MINKER: I see, I didn't realize that. That's new to me, too. MR. CURTIS: And so as a onsequene, I think this reated some hard feelings, and there was some question^ I think Long was involved in that in some respets. It ame out in a somewhat slightly embarrassing way to all involved. But again, I an't quote the details to the site of the embarassment. But then, having almost deided to make that nomination, he pulled it bak and there was no nomination for quite some period of time. There was an ating diretor for (Inaudible) months. Then there was a diretor appointed who stayed not very long. How long, I'm not sure, a year perhaps. JACK MINKER: Do you remember who that was? MR. CURTIS: He ame to NSF from Johns Hopkins and went to San Diego, and he studied butterflies, if I remember or fireflies, but I an't bring his name to mind. JACK MINKER: We an always find that out. Okay. What happened (Inaudible), impat on your offier or? MR. CURTIS: Oh yeah, you know, all of these things have an impat on this sort of (Inaudible) strutural organization. What an a diretor of an organization do? Not muh. He an reorganize; that's one thing that he an --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 ^SF/lq ' ( do, and so that's the sort of thing that they would tend to do. Now through all this, having this one little offier Offie of Computing Ativities, reporting to the diretor was something of a nuisane, and was very soon beame something of an afterthought and everyone's bottom of the plans. When the foundation was requested to develop budget plans or develop long range plans or develop whatever, then, you know, exept for those few of us who were diretly involved and diretly onerned with those partiular ativities, the rest of the foundation wasn't, and they didn't are that muh, unless it was brought up before them onstantly^ whih it ould not be, it would tend to be overlooked. And so it soon beame the situation that it was -- oh God, we forgot about them, let's put them in here. And so it was, there was established a new diretor in the foundation alled a diretor for sientifi and international and tehnial affairs. No, that's not what -- sientifi and international programs I'm not quite sure, but it had some of these kinds of flavors. And our offie of omputing ativities was stuk in there as one of the national, or international; I ouldn't quite tell you what. JACK MINKER: Whih other ativities were there? MR. CURTIS: Oh, other ativities that were there inluded (Inaudible), National Atmospheri-Researh Program. --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 / 'SF/lg It inluded the, at that time, the international, not international, but the information sienes program, whatever that was. I've forgotten what the name of that was at the time. It inluded the international ativities of the foundation that were managed. JACK MINKER: (Inaudible). Sort of an afterthought group. (Inaudible) they didn't know what to do with, they put under one umbrella. MR. CURTIS: That's right. And JACK MINKER: Who was in harge of that then? MR. CURTIS: The person put in harge of that was a hap from O&R, the hief person for the Navy at O&R, Tom Owen. JACK MINKER: What was Pasta's reation? MR. CURTIS: It was in this period of state when Pasta was appointed. So he was appointed head of this Offie of Computing Ativities in this kind of a diretor you see. JACK MINKER: I see. MR. CURTIS: Now Pasta's reation, is let's see what he did, and what he did was to agitate, to have a division of omputer researh established (Inaudible) for researh* Now to make that an understandable statement^ that when we look at other aspets of the internal organizat.'?on» the foundation at that time had this --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0 MSF/lg ' international or mish-mash diretor that we just talked about. You had a diretor for researh whih inluded physial sienes, engineering sienes, biologial sienes, soial sienes and, well essentially all the researh you an lay your hands on with the exeption of the oean, or atmospheri sienes, I believe. And then it had but that was a hugh diretorate. Now that was most of what the foundation did/ and they also had a diretor of siene eduation. You had had, it had had a diretorate on what they all institutional programs^ and that is helping departments expand by getting failities and buildings, and r so on. It had disontinued that at the end of the 0s, and the replaed it with an applied siene diretor alled RAN^tj Researh Applied to National Heeds. And so that was sort of the struture at the time when John Pasta ame, but he was suessful in getting the foundation to agree to establish a program or a division of omputer researh in that ontext, and in the division of researh, or the diretor for researh. JACK MINKER: Oh, that's good. So he was pulling out of that onglomerate group of international (Inaudible), and he was suessful in that. When was he suessful? MR. CURTIS: He was suessful in getting that done, I think about, oh, '. JACK MINKER:? --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--
0 0,MSF/lg \ 0 MR. CURTIS: There about. JACK MINKER: I think we have about two more minutes on the tape, and this seems to be a good point to ut off. MR. CURTIS: All right. JACK MINKER: And why don't we stop and we'll pik it up from this point again, okay? JACK MINKER: Very good. (END OF TAPE.) K. 0 --00 Nationwide Coverage 00--