INQUIRY INTO THE BOIPATONG MASSACRE VEREENIGING DATE; /06 HIS LORDSHIP MR JUSTICE R J GOLDSTONE. ADV D' J ROSSOUW (SC) (Vice Chairman)

$1.3, INQUIRY INTO THE BOIPATONG MASSACRE VEREENIGING DATE; 1992-08-05/06 MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION: HIS LORDSHIP MR JUSTICE R J GOLDSTONE ADV D' J ROSSOUW (SC) (Vice Chairman) ADV M N S SITHOLE ASSESSOR: HIS LORDSHIP MR JUSTICE BHAGWATI FORMER CHIEF JUSTICE OF INDIA ON BEHALF OF: ISCOR LTD: KWAZULU GOVERNMENT: AND INKATHA FREE- DOM PARTY HOSTEL DWELLERS: ADV H J FABRICIUS (SC) ADV H HAYCOCK ADV L J L VISSER (SC) ADV V BOTHA MS F J VAN DER WESTHUIZEN SOUTH AFRICAN DEFENCE FORCE: ADV ADV A W MOSTERT (SC) D PRETORIUS MINISTER FOR LAW AND ORDER; THE SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE: PWV REGION OF THE AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS: ANC (VAAL) AND THE VAAL COUNCIL OF CHURCHES: ADV P A HATTINGH (SC) ADV W L WEPENER ADV J L C J VAN VUUREN ADV A CHASKALSON (SC) ADV D KUNY (SC) ADV K S TIP THE COMMISSION: ADV J J DU TOIT INTERPRETER: MR J A BOOI VOLUME 3 (Pages 78-155) DATAVYF (PTY) LTD

3.58-78 - THEOANE And at that stage was there any shooting going on anywhere that you could hear? Yes, we heard the sound of shooting. And at what stage did the shooting commence? It commenced whilst we were talking to these people, the police who came in the motor vehicle. That is the second police vehicle? The second police vehicle yes, we could hear shooting from the township. While you were talking to them? That is when it stopped? We heard the'sounds when this vehicle came and (10) stopped there. hear the sounds. As it was coming and stopping we could While there was talking between the security guards and the police we could hear these sounds. When you - let me get this from you: the vehicle that you got into, was that a motorcar or was it a. bakkie or what was it? It was a van similar to the van I pointed out on photo D. like that one. It is not a police van but it is a van It has an opening from behind. And did you get into the back? We got into the back. When you got to Baldwin's did you immediately get out(20) of the vehicle? This vehicle stopped at Baldwin's and after it had been stopped inside we then got out. You see, because there are some security men who work or who are colleagues of this guy that works with me at that very place. Did anybody tell you to get out? Well, immediately after this vehicle stopped we got out. This other security man took his dog and we got out, you see because they had told us that they are taking us to Baldwin's. We got out of the vehicle and then we went t<? them in the cabin where (30) they/..

3.62-79 - THEOANE, they were sitting and there they said to us we must get into Baldwin1s. And did you then get into the room in which the security people at Baldwin's were? Yes, we did. Could you still hear shots being fired from there? No, it is quite a distance from there. We at this stage could no longer hear shooting. And were you then left there? Did the people who gave you a lift to Baldwin's did they leave, leave you and the security guard there and did they continue on their way? (10) They left us at (Baldwin's. And did you hear them give any instructions to the security guard that had the dog who got off with you there? No they did not, except for saying to us that we should not go back to the garage. They told you not to go back? To the garage, yes. Not at any stage were you to go back there? No, they did not say not at any stage, they simply said that we should not go back to the garage. And yet you went back? Yes, we did go back because(20) of my fears when I was thinking about what could have taken place in the townships. Fears of what might happen to your family? Yes, also what might have happened to my family, my wife and my child. Yes. Because I had left them alone. But then you went back to the garage and you worked for the rest of the night until 06:00 the next morning? Yes, we went back there and we just watched the ambulances that were going in and coming out. At that stage apart from the ambulances that were (30) there /..

3.66-80 - THEOANE there things seemed to be under control. There was no more shooting? Well yes, it appeared as though what those people had gone to do had been done. Yes, and it was now safe for you to go home and to go and see whether your wife and child were okay? No, I was afraid to go into the township. Leave my place of employment and go to the township. But I thought that was one of the reason you left Baldwin's, your concern about your wife and child? I was just afraid to go to the township because I also said (10) to myself I will just have to go to the township after work. Did you when you got out of the vehicle at Baldwin's, did you see any police or defence force vehicles in the vicinity of Baldwin's? Came back from..? No, no when he got off the vehicle there at Baldwin's where he was taken. I did not see the police there. The security guard who was with you are the service station did he also return to the service station with you when you went back? He went back with me, yes. Did anybody instruct him to go back? Nobody had (20) instructed him. What happened is that I said to him: Man, I am going back to the garage. I would also like to see, I am worried about these ambulances that keep going there; I would just like to know what is happening. Yes. Now I am going back to the garage and he then said: I am going with you. Did he have a radio with him? Yes, he had it in his hand. Yes. This walkie-talkie. For how long did you remain at Baldwin's before you (30) returned/..

3.71-81 - THEOANE returned to the service station? Well, I have already said I cannot precisely say how long or at what time it happened but we were there for some time and that was the position until I started feeling that I am getting worried about these ambulances that kept moving in the direction of the township. You were just asked if you can give an estimate on how long you stayed at Baldwin's. I would not like to commit myself to any.time because I was also at the time so confused. (10) MR HATTINGH: You have already done that in your statement, you said it was about 20 minutes. Even then I am not saying that that was the precise time that I spent there. I am simply estimating. It could perhaps have been that period of time. If that was a fairly accurate estimate when you must have got back to the garage round about 23:00 or even before? Perhaps yes. Now, I just want to make sure about one thing. All the policemen who came to the service station where you (20) were, were dressed in uniform. Is that what you are saying? Yes, they were all dressed in uniform. We have, when I say "we" I mean the police, have obtained statements from the two security people who came there and I am going to put to you their version of the events. MR DU TOIT: Mr Chairman, may I ask Mr Hattingh whether we may be provided with copies of those statements afterwards? I take it there is no objection? (30) MR HATTINGH: /..

3.75-82 - THEOANE MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, we will consider it and come back to you on that aspect. Now the one of the gentleman is Mr Kruger of Kruger (changes pronunciation). He will say that at about 22:45 he received a radio report that there was a crowd of people of approximately 200 in number in the vicinity of the service station at which you were employed. Yes? He will say that he contacted his commanding officer as a result of that report that he received and he was given instructions to proceed to the service station and (ID), to pick up the security guard there as well as some other security guards in the vicinity of your service station. When he arrived there he heard some shots being fired. He will say that he instructed his security guards to get into the vehicle. Whilst they were getting into the vehicle you came running along and you also got into the vehicle voluntarily. You were never instructed or told to get into the vehicle. Do you have any comment on it? Yes, I do. This is not true. (20) MR HATTINGH: At that stage, he will say, you were stand- ing some distance away from the service station at a place * called Blue Amor. He was standing away? Yes, and you were already some short distance away from the service station near Blue Amor. Sorry, Mr Chairman, my attention is drawn to the fact that I have got it the wrong way around. The security people came and stopped near Blue Amor and then you came running from the service station to the bakkie and got into it. I am listening. Do you agree with that version? No, I do not agree(30) with /..

4.02-83 - THEOANE with that. They will say that they then proceeded along Frikkie Meyer Boulevard in a northerly direction, in the direction of Baldwin's. He will say that when they got to Baldwin's - would you bear with me for a moment, Mr Chairman? They observed a South African Defence Force vehicle which was stationary in that vicinity as well as two South African police vehicles. Did you not see those vehicles? They were further ahead of you but they were clearly visible. I did not see anything at the time because I had been (10) taken away to Baldwin's. He will say he stopped at Baldwin's where he spoke on the radio to his head office. I do not know about all that. I have told this commission about what I observed. MR ROSSOUW: Mr Hatting, are you putting to the witness, just for clarity are you putting to the witness that.these vehicles that Kruger talks about were ahead of the vehicle that they were travelling in while they were sitting in the back of that vehicle? MR HATTINGH: Yes, indeed, Mr Chairman..And it is not (20) quite clear from the statements, I will have to clarify that, it is not clear whether they were stationary or whether they were busy approaching. I have not consulted with these gentlemen, I will have to clear that up with them. And then the person will say that whilst he was stationary in front of Baldwin's he received a report about an alarm that had gone off somewhere and he received instructions to investigate that and he told you: get out and wait at Baldwin's, because he had to attend to this alarm. I do not know anything about that. (30) He /..

4.07-84 - THEOANE He will say that he instructed his security men and there were three of them, together with you they were four, told them to wait there until it was safe and then to report to him on the radio what the position was. That is not true. He will say one of the security guards who waited with you at Baldwin's will say that he contacted the gentleman who dropped you off there at 00:15 and reported that everything appeared to be quiet there. Would this person have spoken to "him from Baldwin's? (10) Yes, per radio. He contacted his commanding officer and informed him that everything appeared to be quiet. That I do not know, I was not there at that time at Baldwin' s. How many people got off the vehicle with you at Baldwin's? Just two of us. You and the security guard with the dog? Yes. These gentlemen will say that there were three, you - sorry, there was the man with the dog, another one and then a white security guard. This is Kruger? (20) Yes. No, I did not see all of that. Just the two * of us got off this vehicle, the man who was with me at the garage. The man who was with you at the garage, was he a white man or a black man? A black man. Yes, the white man who was there with you will say that he then received instructions to return to the premises where he was doing guard duty before he was taken away from there and he was told to tell the others to do the same. The white man? (30) The /..

4.10-85 - THEOANE The white security guard who got off the vehicle with him at Baldwin's then received this instruction from his commanding officers. Back to where he was on duty at the garage? No, no, to where he was on duty before he was taken away from there and he was told to tell the other two security guards including the one who was with you at the garage to also go back to the premises where they had to do duty. There is just nothing like that, but may I just say something? Could I just pose a question? (10) Yes, I do not suppose there is any harm in that. You see it is very unfortunate for these other security man who is not here to come and give evidence. I am talking about the black security man who is not here now. It is very unfortunate that he cannot come and say what he saw on-that day. Do you know whether he is going to come and give evidence here or don't you? I do not know. Now this gentleman, the white gentleman will say that the three security guards and you yourself then started (20) walking back in the direction of the filling station where you were employed. No, that is not so. The version of the police will be that only the one police vehicle arrived at the filling station and that was the white Fox sedan. A white police vehicle did come to the garage though I could not say a vehicle of what make but it was white. And these policemen were dressed in private clothes, not in uniform. They were dressed in uniform. They are detectives and they do not work in uniform. (30) What /..

^Tl3-86 - THEOANE What I told this commission is what I saw with my own eyes. Would you bear with me for one moment, Mr Chairman? One of them will say that he spoke to you and you told him that a group of people had crossed Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and that they were hiding somewhere in the veld near Boipatong. I did not speak to those policemen, not in words. He said he looked in the direction in which you pointed but he could not see anything because (a), it was dark and (b), there was a lot of smoke. I do not know any- (10) thing about that. What I told this commission is what I actually saw with my eyes. And he will say that whilst he was still there talking to you he heard gunshots. I do not know anything about what they say now. I did not speak to those policemen. And the shots sounded like they were coming from Boi- patong. I do not know anything about that. I have told you what I saw. He said he advised you to leave your post, to get (20) away from- there because there was danger. There is nothing like that. They themselves then immediately departed from there. Can you give us some names, Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH: Yes, Mr Chairman, it was Constable, I am not sure of the rank, Marx and Du Plessis. I think it is spelled M-a-r-k-s - Marks. I do not know anything about this story of theirs. They will say that they left the filling station and proceeded along Frikkie Meyer Boulevard in the direction (30)

4.17-87 - THEOANE of Vanderbijlpark. I don't know anything about their story. And whilst travelling along that road they saw people running away from Boipatong in the direction of the Kwa- Madala hostels. I don't know anything about what they may have seen. They stopped at the intersection of Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and Delfos (intervenes) CHAIRMAN; Mr Hattingh, is there any point in putting to the witness what they say happened when he was not (10) present? MR HATTINGH: I just thought that I would inform the commission of our version, Mr Chairman. Well, I think it would be more useful if you inform us by giving us statements, Mr Hattingh. A much quicker way and more efficient way of doing it, and I request, I request again that that be done. MR HATTINGH: In due course we will give the statements. Did you after the incident speak to any newspaper reporters about it? About? (20) anybody. About the incident. No, I did not speak to I signed no statements except for this statement that I have signed which was produced here. MR HATTINGH: I am not talking about written statements I am asking you whether you were interviewed by newspaper reporters about what you had observed about this night in question. I did not speak to any newspaper people. In the Star of 27 June 1992 a report appears and I want to suggest to you that this could only apply to you. The person referred to here, although he is not named, \ (30) could /..

4.19-88 - THEOANE could only be you. It reads as follows: "A puzzling feature of the attack is that it surged through the township towards the hostel, meaning that if the hostel dwellers were to blame they first had to get to the far side of the township undetected. The only explanation of how this could have been done has offered by a petrol attendant at a service station opposite the hostel." >» Now you will recall that my very first question to you under cross-examination was whether there were any other (10) filling stations in this area and you said no; and whether you were the only petrol attendant on duty on the night in question and you confirmed that. Do you still deny that you spoke to the reporter of the Star? I do not know the reporter of the Star. If he said that I made any statements to him then he would have to prove it and also show where I may have signed. The report reads as follows, proceeds as follows: "The man, who is known to The Saturday Star said approximately three hundred armed men surged out (20) of the hostel at around 09,30 pm, shortly before most people said the attack began, and marched along the main street adjacent to the township from which they could have entered the shanty town known as Slovo Camp, reportedly where the attack originated. " Then this is the important part I want to read to you: "He denies having seen any police vehicles." Listen to this: "He says he summoned the police by pressing an alarm (30) button/..

4.22-89 - THEOANE "button." Where would he have got that information if not from you? He might have got the information from the meetings of the meetings in the townships; meetings that we were holding. Were you present (intervenes) If he says that I made any statements to him, let him prove it, let him show where I have signed. What meetings are you referring to? Just our meetings, the' residents in the township. (10) i Did you report what you had seen at such meetings? I do not remember where. Well, why not? Why don't you remember whether you told anybody at these meetings what you had seen? I was just thinking that this was a possibility where this person could have got this. I might just have been talking to a friend about what had happened. I did not speak in meetings. So you remember that you did not speak in meetings? I do not remember. ( 20) Well what is it now? Don't you remember or did you not speak as you just said? I did not speak in a meeting. Did you tell a friend what happened to you? I have spoken to friends, I have told them what happened on that day. They did come and ask me if I had gone to work on that day. Who came and asked you? Friends of mine. Why did they come and ask you that? It is because they know that I am working at the garage and what they (30) thought/..

4.27-90 - THEOANE thought was if I had gone to work on that day then I might have seen much which I could be of help with. And did you tell them then? I told them what happened, yes. Who was this friend? They are my friends. Yes, but give us his name, please? I would not want to divulge their names. Why not? But I even know where they stay. Why not? Why don't you want to tell us their names? I cannot just make mention of a person's name at this (10) stage without that person having indicated to me that he would not mind. If I may just finish off with this one report, Mr Chairman, it is not very long. May I just finish off with this one report? I want to suggest to you that this reporter could only have gotten the information from you because listen how the report reads further - I will repeat what I have read: "He says he summoned the police by pressing an alarm button, but when they arrived 15 minutes (20) later they ignored his pleas to investigate and later tried to remove him and a nightwatchman from the scene. The next day he and six other men working at the station were fired." And then the reporter poses a question: "Why would the police not investigate his claims and then try to remove him from the scene?" I think that was a question that was put to you because the reply is as follows: "The man assumes it was because they feared he saw (30) too /..

4.29-91 - THEOANE too much." Exactly your explanation to this committee - "He has now gone into hiding for fear of his life." I do not know where he got all this information from even the information about me having fled. I do not. know where they got it from. MR DU TOIT: Mr Chairman, could we perhaps mark that article EXHIBIT 11? We can make copies. Does the name of the reporter appear from the article? (10) MR HATTINGH; I have not got it on this page. It is not a very good copy, perhaps I should go and look at the newspaper itself and see whether it does not perhaps appear on another part of the page on which the report appears. Have you and your clients consulted with the reporter? MR HATTINGH; No, Mr Chairman. I noticed it is after 17:00. Mr Hattingh, without wishing to bind you in any way, it would help us with our housekeeping if you (20) would give some indication of how much longer..? MR HATTINGH: It won't be much lonqer, Mr Chairman. I think I have one or two further newspaper reports to deal with and then maybe one or two odd matters. It should not be too long. Can I get an indication: do other counsel intend cross-examining Mr Theoane? MR MOSTERT: I am going to cross-examine but I shall be brief. Mr Botha? (30) MR BOTHA: /..

4.32-92 - THEOANE MR BOTHA; Yes, Mr Chairman, I do intend cross-examining him. Even though the commission at this stage is dealing, if I understand it correctly, only with the last term of reference, this witness indeed goes as far inasmuch as he suggests that the attackers came from KwaMadala hostel, to implicate the hostel dwellers and to that extent I will cross-examine this witness. Mr Mosselson? MR MOSSELSON: Mr Chairman, the witness has said very little regarding my clients. If anything comes from (10) cross-examination I reserve my right at this stage (not, clearly audible).. MR FABRICIUS: (?) I am in that same position. Very well, we will then adjourn until 09:00 tomorrow morning. THE COMMISSION ADJOURNS UNTIL 1992-08-06 THE COMMISSION RESUMES MESHACK THEOANE, s.u.o. (through interpreter) MR DU TOIT: Mr Chairman, the interpreter has not arrived yet but we have got a second interpreter that will just (20) take over for the moment. MR CHASKALSON: Mr Chairman, before we start, can I address you on an issue which may facilitate the proceedings? Sorry, just one minute. Mr Chaskalson? MR CHASKALSON: First, Mr Chairman, my learned friend Mr Mostert informed us that morning that the missing documents from the bundle which he was preparing had been found and that that will be delivered to us during the course of the morning, so I do not need to address you on that. But what I do want to raise is the response of the (30) other/..

5.02-93 - ADDRESS other parties to this inquiry to our document that we put up to the commission. I have now had an opportunity of looking at EXHIBIT 9 which was handed to us yesterday morning and could I ask you to turn to pages 116 to 117 of our bundle and then I want tq. take you (intervenes) Unfortunately nobody has paginated ours. MR CHASKALSON: that this was so. Oh, I am so sorry, I'had not realised It is page 11 of the small document dealing - and we will try to arrange for some pagination to be dealt with. If perhaps we could have the documents (10) during the luncheon (intervenes) Is it page 11 of memorandum of events? MR CHASKALSON: Of the small - of the memorandum. Yes, paragraph 3? MR CHASKALSON: Yes. If one looks at paragraphs 3.3 to 3.5 you will see that we stated there that at 21:00 on the night of 17 June Meshack Theoane started his shift at the Trek filling station at the corner of Noble and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard. With him at the filling station was a security guard; ' approximately 30 minutes later he saw (20) people cros sing the road, etcetera. Theoane rang the alarm at the filling station which is connected with the SAP, Vanderbijlpark. Shortly thereafter two policemen arrived in a van and asked Theoane why he had rung the alarm. He explained there was a group of armed men entering the township from KwaMadala; they seemed uninterested in this information and left the area. The security guard then rang his employers to report the movement of the armed men. Two white security men arrived at the filling station a few minutes later and apparently called the police on (30) their/..

5.03 ' - 94 - ADDRESS their radio's. Different two white policemen then arrived at-the filling station and spoke to the white security men. The security men then said that the police have instructed them to take Theoane and the security guard away from the filling station because it was not safe. Now very considerable detail is there. The response from the police, they ignored it. It now emerges after a very long cross-examination yesterday that there are particular issues in that which are in dispute and particular issues that are admitted. A short reply to that would have cut down the cross- (10) examination I suggest from what has already gone on Jjor. over three hours to comparatively brief cross-examination because we would have known and we did not have to wait until the end of the day to know what was admitted and what was denied and we would all have had a much better understanding and the commission itself would have been able to address the cross-examination and see that what was in issue was being directed. Now if we take it further, if I can ask you to look at our memorandum which has been treated, if I may say so (20) somewhat hysterically, simply because we make the averments that our client asks us to make and for which it has support, that there was police presence at the time. But 90% of that memorandum is factual, it does not deal with whether the police were there at the time or not. If these allegations were addressed by the parties who are here who either say yes, we agree with it; no, we do not agree with it, or we don't know; we would be in a position today to have a much better idea of where this commission is going, to. But can I ask by just taking you through it for (30) a /..

5.03 ' - 95 - ADDRESS a moment? We start of by saying the following - 4.1 the following paragraphs record details which are confirmed by numerous witnesses; 4.2 the attackers consisted primarily of black men speaking Zulu and chanting Zulu slogans. Many of them wore overcoats and white headbands. They carried a range of weapons including spears, shields, kieries, axes and guns. Does anybody have a different version to that or is this going to be common cause? * * (10) 4.3 the attackers smashed windows at almost every house they passed. Do the police admit that or are they going to put up a different case? 4.4 the attack was indisciminate and extraordinarily violent and then there are details of people who were killed, the houses at which they were killed. I know we now have a map but we do not know whether the details we are given here are correct or not. We say at 4.5 there was large- (20) scale looting of the township, mindless destruction of the property, television sets, music systems etcetera were set alight. Does anybody have evidence to the contrary? Then 5.1: a large group of attackers appear to have entered Boipatong in Lekoa Street at the southern entrance of the township at the intersection with Moshoeshoe. Does the police agree with this? We have a very general statement as to the fact that they entered at the south-eastern side of the township. Do they say that the entrance was at a different place or do they say it was here? They (30)

5.04-96 - ADDRESS say it split up into two groups, appears to. Do they agree that one moved along Lekoa Street and one went east along Moshoeshoe Street. Do they accept that the attackers killed Samuel and Benjamin and Motsosetse at Moshoeshoe Street or 70 year old Paulina Dhlamini and her 21 year old daughter at Lekoa Street, stabbed to death. I know they dealt with the question of the white people and we know what the issue is. If we go through this page by page, details are given which we were asked for, to say what is your version. We set it out. We were all asked to do it). (10) every party here was asked to do it. There is only one party which has attempted to comply with the request made to them by the commission. We have given such statements as we were asked for to support some of these averments. I do not know whether any other party has given statements to the -commission. There are numerous other details about books which are referred to where records have been made, about what somebody at Cape Gate did. It was all set out here. Nobody has put up anything. Does the IFP say we have any (20) evidence to the contrary? If they have, tell us what it is. If they have not then we know they do not suggest that there is anything to the contrary. Does the KwaZulu Government have any evidence to the contrary? If so, tell us. If they say no, we do not know anything then we know that is where we are proceeding. I will not ask counsel representing the accused at the criminal trial to state his position because I do not think it would be right to do that and I do not ask for any information from him for the purposes of our preparation. But the SADF, my learned(30) friend /..

5.06-97 - A D D R E S S friend Mr Mostert put things in cross-examination yesterday. Why didn't we..(intervenes) Mr Mostert? MR CHASKALSON: Mr Mostert. Oh, sorry, in opening. Sorry. (Remark in background not audible) Well yes, he attracts» accusations and I am sorry. (Laughter). Really, Mr Chairman, we were asked to do something. We set about in good faith doing it. We explained at the time we had difficulty getting names of people for reasons which we have explained to the commission, you have our assurance that w'e have (10) statements to support this and my learned friend Mr Hattingh is correct, they are statements and they have not been tested and we never suggested anything to the contrary. But why is it that only one party has attempted to do what the commission has asked and why is it now some 7 or 8 days later we do not have a reply from any other party to this on substance. Why don't we know today whether 90% of this, of our memorandum is admitted or disputed and if so, what those disputes are? And I would suggest Mr Chairman, if we are going to have to sit here (20) undergoing the sort of cross-examination which this witness has been subjected to, this commission is going to - and again I do not suggest for a moment that my learned friend should not test the witnesses but if we would know what the admitted facts were, we would not have to have three, four, five hours cross-examination and we could deal with it quite quickly. So I ask your, I bring this to your lordship's - Mr Chairman, to your attention. We feel we are the only party who has done anything at all to comply with the (30) commission's /..

5.07-98 - ADDRESS commission's requirements and we feel if the other parties would do that, that this hearing might then reach a form which would be manageable. Otherwise if they are going to turn it into a trial where we have become the plaintiff and have to try to prove a case, we are going to be here for three to six months. So I bring these to your lord.. I ask this commission, Mr Chairman, to address this issue and to request the other parties to tell you here and now; let us hear from IFP and KwaZulu, do they have anything which they say is inconsistent with it. I am not asking (10) them to admit anything, but is there anything inconsistent and if they say they do not know anything, then we know as far as that is concerned that is their role here, they have nothing to contribute to the commission, they are listening. And I would ask for the other parties to address these issues that I have raised. CHAIRMAN; Mr Chaskalson, as I understand the position certainly from the SAP point of view, they stand or fall by the statement of Major Davidson, but I share your difficulty with regard to some of the issues that were raised(20) inc ross-examihation yesterday, because we heard for the very first time about the presence of a police vehicle in Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and activity in regard to the service station. Now Mr Hattingh, why was that sort of detail and if there is more detail, why were we not told of them? MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, you will recall at our meeting on Sunday, we objected to this document becoming a public document and we did not want it to be handed in at all. We were opposed and we left that meeting under the clear (30) impression/..

5.08-99 - ADDRESS impression that the document was not going to be used as a public document. Then I received a telephone call from you, Mr Chairman, telling me that the last part of it which has now become a document is indeed going to be accepted. May I was under a misimgression but that was news to me. CHAIRMAN; I do not see how that topic relates to the question as to why the police have not informed the committee of the facts relating to its case. MR HATTINGH: I do not recall that we were requested to (10) put up a memorandum such as the one that my learned friend Mr Chaskalson has put up. But I thought that is what we discussed at the very initial meeting in Pretoria when we agreed on the terms of reference. And it was in response to that that Mr Chaskalson's clients prepared this memorandum. MR CHASKALSON: If I may intervene, Mr Chairman, I indicated at the time I think that I would put up a memorandum because I did not want to - I could not put up detailed statements for the reasons which I made clear at the time.(20) MR DU TOIT: Mr Du Toit, can you assist us? What was discussed at that first meeting that we had is that the parties would present us with some documents on that specific Thursday that we met. That was the reason for the meeting between all the lawyers on that Thursday a week ago, and as Mr Chaskalson said the only representations that I received was in fact this memorandum that is now part of EXHIBIT 1. But surely the police already to a certain extent complied in the sense that at the preliminary hearing they compiled a document. The ANC at (30) that /..

5.09-100 - ADDRESS that stage did not do the same. We only received their document much later, what is now EXHIBIT 1 before this commission. So that is the position as I see it, Mr Chairman. Well, will it be possible even by Monday Mr Hattingh, to know what is common cause? MR HATTINGH; Indeed, Mr Chairman, we are in the process (intervenes) CHAIRMAN; I certainly think it would assist Mr Du Toit and therefore the commission very much, in knowing what (10) issues need to be canvassed and do not. MR HATTINGH: You will have noticed that my one junior is not attending this session, he is indeed attending to that and as soon as we have proper statements - we have handwritten statements that are very difficult to read. We have now acquired typing facilities and everything like that and we are in the process of preparing proper statements. Mr Chairman, I must confirm what my learned friend Mr Du Toit says. You will recall that at the preliminary (20) meeting Mr Toke Sethgale(?) spoke and gave everything but facts. We at that meeting put up Major Davidson's very complete statement. We understood this memorandum to be the document that should have been put up and I mentioned that fact at the meeting on Sunday. I said that this document should have been presented to the committee on that first preliminary hearing which it was not. So we assumed that this was a document which they have now presented because of the fact that they did not present these facts to \ you on the first occasion. When you spoke to me, Mr (30) Chairman/..

5.11-101 - THEOANE Chairman and asked me for a response it was not for the purpose of answering to the allegations in that..(intervenes) CHAIRMAN; No, no, I am not suggesting that, but whatever the position I think let us just try I think and be as efficient as possible and if we could get a response, it is really a plea, an informal plea as one would have in a trial. MR HATTINGH: Yes, you will recall Mr Chairman that at the very first informal meeting'that we had it was made (10) ^ quite clear to us that y/e would not be required to prove a negative - I know we are not in a trial but that was made clear to us. Yes. MR HATTINGH: And the first allegations, factual allega- * tions that we received was contained in this document. Mr Chairman, we will deal with it. Mr Chaskalson, I think that is the best that we can do. ^ MR CHASKALSON: Yes. It is simply I believe that if it (20) had been dealt with yesterday's cross-examination would have been considerably shorter and I think that we will see that with lots of witnesses. We will have to proceed (simultaneously) MR CHASKALSON: And we could have a framework if we knew what facts.. We will have to proceed as best we can in the meantime until we have that. I think the position of the SADF emerges clearly from Mr Mostert's opening address. ' MR MOSTERT: (Not in microphone) May I say this, Mr (30) Chaskalson/..

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