AN ORAL HISORY. with JOHN WILLIAMS DAVIS BROWN

AN ORAL HISORY with JOHN WILLIAMS DAVIS BROWN This is an interview for the Mississippi Oral History Program ofthe University of Southern Mississippi. The interview is with John Williams Davis Brown and is taking place on June 17, 2007. The interviewer is Terry Buffington. Buffmgton: Today is Sunday, Father's Day, June 17, [2007], at 7:20pm. I'm sitting on the front porch with Mr. John D. Brown, interviewing Mr. Brown about the West Point civil rights movement during the 1960s. My name is Terry Buffington. And Mr. Brown? Brown: Yes, ma'am. Buffmgton: Thank you. Thank you so kindly for taking out Sunday, Father's Day, to sit and talk to me about West Point civil rights movement. Where were you born, Mr. Brown, and would you state your full name, your date of birth, and where you were born? Brown: My full name is John Williams Davis. My full name is John William Davis Brown. Buffmgton: And you were born? Brown: I was born in Maben, Mississippi, Oktibbeha County, 1948, August the third. Buffmgton: So did you grow up in Maben? Brown: I lived in Maben and around the Maben area until I was about five years old with my mother and father and a sister. And we moved to West Point when I was five. Buffmgton: So what was life like growing up in West Point during those early years when you moved from [Maben] to West Point? What was life like, or what did your parents do? Brown: My dad, he worked. My mom, she was a housemother. He worked as a construction worker on different jobs around West Point, Columbus, and Starkville. They moved about for as long as I can remember. And my first going to school was in West Point. It was segregated schools; had schools for whites and schools for blacks. And we walked from Smith Bottom to Northside(?) School. I was probably six years old in the first grade. The educational system wasn't as good as it could've been or should've been for blacks in West Point. I can also remember my mom having to take

2 house jobs just to help Daddy to support the family. She'd go and clean folks ' house and cook their meals and stuff. She was a maid for most ofthe day, and then she'd have to come home and do the same thing that she'd been doing for the white folks all day. Growing up in West Point was sometimes pleasant and sometimes unpleasant. Buffmgton: Unpleasant, what do you mean? Brown: There were certain places you could go, and there were certain places you couldn't go. I mean, if you were walking the street, and the police sees you in a certain neighborhood, which was a white neighborhood, well, you automatically got harassed, they'd stop and question you. And most people would avoid white neighborhoods just to keep from being harassed by the police officers. At the time it was a all-white police force. There was no black, elected officials in this town at all. There were very, very few black people in this town was even registered to vote. I mean, they didn't even know what voting was all about. And the white people in this town tried to make sure it stayed that way until one night I was visiting with a couple offriends of mine, Johnny Wilson(?), T.J.. Shankin(?). We went to Smith Bottom. I had not heard about the civil rights yet. Buffmgton: How old were you? Brown: At this time, I was probably about fifteen. It so happened that night they was having a meeting, a civil rights meeting at the Baptist Church down in Smith Bottom. The first time I met John Buffington. And during that meeting that night, one of the young black guys in West Point, that name of Carl Rice Jr.(?) had been arrested, unfairly. So after that meeting was over we all decided to go down to the city jail to protest against his arrest. Buffmgton: What made you get involved in the civil rights movement, and what caused him to get arrested, Carl Rice? Brown: That I don't remember exactly, what it was all about, but all I know: it was unfair, and he was still considered as a minor because he and I, all of us, was about the same age, and they had arrested him. He was in-they had him in jail. So after the meeting was over we was discussing it about it, and so Buffington said, "Well, why don't we just go down here and find out what's going on?" Buffmgton: Now, was the civil rights movement, were there any activities going on before this big meeting down at Third Mount Olive Church that night? Had something happened before that, before you got to this point to get involved in this? What was going on in the town when Carl-before you got involved with the civil rights workers? Brown: Now, that I don't know because this was my first (inaudible). I didn't even know he was here in town until that night. Buffmgton: The civil-john Buffington? Brown: Um-hm.

3 Buffmgton: OK. Brown: Until that night, that was the first time I met him, the first time I'd ever heard of him. Buffmgton: But you heard about the civil rights meeting? Brown: Yeah. Buffmgton: So when you heard about it, what were you thinking? Brown: I want to go see what's this all about. I want to go see, hear what this man has got to say and try it because I always felt that we were being treated unfairly. Buffmgton: What year was this, John D.? Brown: Oh- Buffmgton: Sixty- Brown: Sixty, man, I can't even- Buffmgton: Two? Brown: Sixty-two or [19]63. Buffmgton: Sixty-three? Brown: Sixty-two or [19]63, right in that neighborhood. Well, we went to jail that night. I mean, we didn't get, we didn't Carl Rice out. We all- Buffmgton: How many of you went to demonstrate? Brown: I can't remember that either. I know it was-i know we went to-myself, John Buffington, Calvin Coggins(?), Bobby Joe Thomas(?), Robert Bell(?), John Luther Bell(?), Johnny Wilson(?). I can't remember who. There was ten or twelve of us that went to jail that night. I can't remember- Buffmgton: So y'all went to jail, too? Brown: We went to jail that- Buffmgton: So what happened when you got to the jail? Brown: Well, first of all, we joined hands out in front of the jail and started to sing a song called, "We Shall Overcome, We Shall Overcome Someday." The policemens came and asked us to break it up, to leave. Nobody left. Everybody just kept holding hands and singing. And they asked us several times to break it up, to leave, and we felt that, "Well, we need to know why y'all holding Carl Rice in jail." And we wouldn't leave, and we just kept-all we did was stand there and hold hands and sing. And then the police said, "Y'all are under arrest." Well, a couple of fellows took off, tried to leave then, said, "Well, I was just fixing to go." That was Calvin Coggins.

4 Police said, "No, you ain't going. You can't go now. You going to jail." They locked us up. That was the first time I've-the first time I'd ever been in jail. It was the first time I'd ever had any conflict with the law at all, except for just general harassment on the streets when they see you walking, and they stop and ask you, "Where you going? What are you doing in this neighborhood?" And just generally the first serious. And they called our parents and stuff. They sent us some bail to get out. Buffmgton: What did they arrest you for, disturbing the peace? Brown: They just-i believe it was-i can't remember now exactly what they charged us with, disturbing the peace or unlawfully assembled or something or other. I don't know what; I can't remember now exactly what we were charged with. But I do remember one of the women that my mom did work for, she was like, she was one of the elected official's wife in this town. And I can remember her talking to me through the bars, saying "John, you ain't did nothing wrong, but what you did wasn't right." To this day I don't know what she meant. Buffmgton: This is the white woman? Brown: Um-hm. Buffmgton: What was her name? Brown: Oh, Lord. I can't remember it right now, but she was a elected official's wife. My mom worked for one of-it was either like a-it wasn't the mayor. It was-she worked in the courthouse. I can't remember what it was, and I can't even remember her name right now. Oh, I've been having trouble remembering stuff ever since I had that stroke, and I can't seem to remember exactly. Buffmgton: Do you remember what John Buffington said that first night you went to the civil rights movement that propelled you to join forces with the civil rights workers? What was he-what kind of things did he tell the people in the community? Was the church filled with people? Brown: The church was full, and they were mostly teenagers or mostly young people. Mother Dora Adams was there; I can remember her being there. And I knew her from church because we attended the same church, and I felt like if Mother Adams is agreeing with this man, he must be right because she was a good, God-fearing church mother, and I respected her, and I respected her ideas and thoughts. And I said, "Well, if Mother Adams agrees with it, so do I." But as the meeting went on, Buffington talked about, John talked about voter's registration, talked about us getting-that we had the right to vote, and that we all need to get to work to try and get the people who was of age enough to vote, to go register to vote. And he also talked about the unfair arrest of Carl Rice. We were all kind of little clique friends. We grew up together and went to school together, and quite naturally we was all concerned about them having him arrested unfairly. And that's why I really got involved because I was wanting to help Carl, and the more I got to know John and the more I got to know about John and what he was trying to do, the more interested I became in it. And it just went from there.

5 Buffmgton: What did your parents think about your getting involved in it, considering that your mother worked for one of these white people, one of these white women? Brown: My mom-my dad, he had no saying about it at all. My mom, she was kind of reluctant because she feared for my safety. She agreed, when we set down and talked about what John was trying to do and what John was doing, she agreed that he was right, but her biggest fear was for my safety, especially being a young, black male. It was really dangerous to be, you know, a young, black man in this town. I mean, you had certain dos and don'ts, and you had to go by them. But my mom was mostly afraid for my safety, but she always had my back. She'd say, "John, if I was you I wouldn't." But ifl did she covered. Buffmgton: So now you're in jail. Brown: I'm in jail; all of us are locked up. They'd feed like twice a day, once in the morning and once in the afternoon. Buffmgton: How long did you stay, did y'all stay in jail? Brown: It was like three days, I believe, we was there that time before everybody got bailed out. Buffmgton: Who bailed y' all out? Brown: Just local folks in the community. John Buffington raised money from local folks, was in the community, and some of the kids who was in there, like their parents owned, like their own home and stuff; they'd put their house up for bail. Well, that's how I was bailed out. My mom put up her house for my bail. (Inaudible) all we had to do was like show up at court and stuff like that, and everything was cleared up. But a lot of the funds for that particular incident was just raised out the community. Folks would donate the funds and stuff until we all were out. But we had one fellow in there; he'd get out whenever he got ready. That was Bobby Joe Thomas(?). I remember one morning he unlocked that cell door somehow way or another. Buffmgton: Was this the first time you was in jail? Brown: That was the very first time. That's when we went for when they had Carl Rice. (laughter) Bobby Joe opened that door some kind of way or another, and Mr. Davis had a store right up on the top of the hill, about a half a block away from the jail, and we, me and him went up to the store and got us some food to eat and came back and went back in the cell, pulled the door back. And the police came in. We sitting up in there, eating and stuff, and they go, "How'd y'all get out ofhere?" "We just opened the door and went out, went to the store and came back." Sure did. That was the very first time I had been arrested. That was my very first affiliation with the civil rights movement in West Point. After that I started to hanging around every chance I got. I mean, soon as school was out, I'd head straight to the Freedom House. Buffmgton: Where was the Freedom House?

6 Brown: It was located on Cottrell(?) Street, and that was where Buffington had a office where he did, like organized his paperworks and stuff, the leaflets and pamphlets and stuffto be distributed out through the community. He also lived right there. I mean, he slept right there, like he had sleeping quarters in the back and like an office in the front. And at the time he-shortly after that, a bunch of white kids from up North came in to help him out with the organizing and the voters registration drive in West Point. And several of us local kids, such as myself, Roger McFarland, John Luther Bell, Johnny Wilson(?), Henry McFarland-we called him "Beau." There were several more that I can't, don't remember right oflhand. But we'd go out and pass out leaflets through the community. Ifwe needed to, we'd take people down to the courthouse to get registered to vote, to register to vote, the older folks that was kind of shy of going by their self or thought, didn't know exactly what to do or afraid of what the white folks were going to say to them when they got there. We'd go along with them to make sure that nobody bothered them and to give them confidence that they had somebody there with them, too. Buffmgton: Well, what was the mood ofthe community when all of this was going on? Were there any demonstrations going on? So the early days of the civil rights movement, one of the first big hurdles you had was the arrest of Carl Rice. Brown: Um-hm. Buffmgton: And if I remember correctly, it had something to do with a fight up at the high school, and the police came or were called or something, and the kids blocked the police car. And as a result of that, Carl Rice got arrested. Brown: Arrested, right. Buffmgton: So was that the very first thing that happened in West Point with civil rights? Brown: That was the very first thing that I heard about, and that's when I got involved. I hadn't heard of-i'm sure there was other stuff going on, and it just hadn't gotten to me yet, but then- Buffmgton: Were people scared? Brown: Very scared, very scared. They were scared for themselves, and they were scared for their childrens that was participating in the movement because we started doing, integrating lunch counters. They had a five-and-dime store on Main Street; they had a lunch counter in there where they made sodas and stuff, but they wereonly white could go in. And several of us went down, and we went in and got throwed out. Buffmgton: Now, before y 'all did these things, did y 'all sit and organize and strategize with John Buffington about how y ' all was going to do stuff, and how you were going to get out of jail if you got arrested? Talk about that.

7 Brown: Yes. Everybody knew exactly what we was going to do, and we all knew exactly what the possibilities was, and how that you possibly was going to go to jail, and John had already made arrangements for bail and stuff to get out. He also, he always stressed nonviolence. "No matter what you do, don't fight. No matter what happens, don't fight." He stressed that very-as a matter of fact, he stressed that so much till I was beginning to get angry with him because I wanted to fight. (laughter) But he always said, "OK. That's not the way to do it, and nonviolence is the way to do it." But I differed with him on that, but- Buffmgton: Well, who were the people that was living in the Freedom House when Buffington first came to town? Who was working with him? Who were some ofthe people that were first with him during those early days? Brown: Ike Coleman(?). Buffmgton: Ike Coleman. Brown: Jay Lockheart(?), Melinda-God, you just called her name a while ago, and I can't think ofher name for nothing. You said she was at his funeral, and I'd been wondering what had happened to her. Buffmgton: June Johnson(?). Brown: June Johnson and Myrtle Valesco(?). They were all-eddie Brooks(?). What's his name? Featherstone(?). Buffmgton: Ralph Featherstone. Brown: Ralph Featherstone was kind of like in and out. He'd be here for like a week or so, and then he'd go somewhere else, and then a week or so later, he'd be back here in West Point. I think he was like a district something because he moved around a lot. There were several people that came and went. I mean, they'd come and stay like a summer, and then the next summer there would be new civil right workers, people to come in to help with the movement here in West Point. Buffmgton: Go back to the voter registration. Brown: We'd go down, take people down to the courthouse and get them to register to vote. Buffmgton: Did they have to pay poll taxes? Back in those days it was poll taxes. You couldn't vote unless you paid poll taxes. Brown: Unless you paid poll taxes, right. We'd get them to register and then pay they poll tax. Buffmgton: Did y'all have to work with them and teach them how to vote? Brown: Had to teach them how to mark the ballots because back at that time, they didn't have all these here machines and things. You marked your mark on your ballot.

8 We'd show them how to do that and give folks a ride down. Like all the poor people that didn't have transportation, we'd give them a ride to the courthouse or to wherever. Depending on what district they lived in, they had several different voting places. If you lived in this district, then you voted at the courthouse. If you lived in that district, you voted at the fire station or whatever. We'd make sure they got to they proper voting place. Buffmgton: Now, when y'all was doing your registration voting, were they any black people that was mad at y'all and tried to stop you and was saying bad things and threatening you? And were there any black people in the community that was against the civil rights movement? Brown: Oh, yes. Yes, very, very, very much so. It was one incident, happened to me. I don't like to talk about it, but I have never forgotten about it. Since I have never forgotten about it, that means I ain't never forgiven. One of the deacons at my church was also on the police force. Buffmgton: This was after black people got on the police force. Brown: This was after. They only had-mostly everybody I talked to, they were not violent, but scared. And if you talked to them long enough and quiet enough, right and sense them into it, they would go ahead and do it because they knew it was right. And then there may have been cases where there were violent threats and stuff made with trying to get people to register to vote, but I didn't run into that because everybody I talked to, I'd bring it to them in a way and explain it to them in a way to where it would give them confidence and nerves enough to go ahead and do it. And most of the people that I talked to knew me well enough that they felt it was all right if I told them it was. But then some of them, it took some convincing because-and I feel like they were already convinced; it's just that they needed reassuring, somebody to say, "This is the right thing to do." I believe they knew in they hearts it was the right thing to do, but they were too afraid to do it, afraid of what kind of reaction the white folks was going to have. Buffmgton: What kind of things did black people call the civil rights workers? Brown: (long pause) Freedom riders. Buffmgton: Freedom riders. Brown: Was one of the main slurs. They wouldn't say, like, "civil rights workers." Some of them would say, "civil rights workers." But most of them would say, "You know them old freedom riders." And I don't, today I don't understand where they get the slur of-( end oftape one, side one; beginning oftape one, side two) Brown: I wish this here had happened a few years earlier so my memory of stuff- Buffmgton: You're doing all right. Brown: -would be more clear.

9 Buffmgton: You're doing all right. Brown: Especially with names and dates and stuff. It all comes back to me, but it comes in pieces, a little piece here and a little piece there, and they don't necessarily be in order, as the way it happened, in the direct order, but they comes in spurts. All right. But they organized what we called Freedom Schools, and even mostly here at churches that pastors would let them come into. And in the Freedom School basically was taught about black history, basically, of where you come from, and the situation you in now, and where you headed to, the importance of education. These were some of the main things that were taught like in the Freedom Schools. These are the things that I remember the most; that was the most important things. Buffmgton: Who taught the Freedom-who taught the classes at the Freedom School? Brown: Some, Buffington, John, would teach, himself, and some ofthe coworkers would, like some of the guys that came in for the summer and stuff. And it was just, all it was was basic human rights. You know. A lot ofthe stufftheytaught was straight out the Bible. I mean, that's why a lot of preachers opened their doors and let them in because if you get right down to it, they wasn't saying no more than what God was already saying right there in the Bible. And a preacher, a true man of God, would have to agree with that. I mean, he could not disagree with that and really, truly be a man of God with those civil rights ideas. I know Progress Street Church of God, they had a Freedom School up there, and they had one in Smith Bottom at- Brown: Third Mount Olive. Buffmgton: -Third Mount Olive, and there was one at White(?) Station. I can't remember the name of the church out there, and one in Utica. It was a church outnow, it was a union hall at Utica, is where they held Freedom School. John Goff(?) was like the main connection in that neighborhood. I'd call him the neighborhood leader. He was a very strong, black man and a God-fearing, black man in Utica, Mississippi. Also in Tibbee, I can't remember exactly- Brown: Mr. Gray(?). Buffmgton: Yeah. Brown: Um-hm, the Gray brothers. Buffmgton: The Gray brothers in Tibbee, they had a Freedom School out there, too. Buffmgton: Were there any violent activities with the Klans or anybody during those days? Brown: Well, most of it happened-yeah, there was, but it was mostly westward. Buffmgton: Westward? Brown: Yeah.

10 Buffmgton: Out at Montpelier(?)? Brown: Montpelier, Pheobe(?), out in the rural parts. Buffmgton: So y'alljust organized whole Clay County. Brown: The whole county. OK. Out around Pheobe, the main leader around that community was a female. She was Frankie Lache let(?). Buffmgton: Washington. Brown: Washington, she was Lachelet at the time. Buffmgton: Oh, OK. Brown: Yeah. I think she married. I know recently, here lately, she went into the ministry, but she was like the community leader, and she's a very bold woman, and she had no fear. And the Valentines(?) was another community leader in that same community. As a matter of fact, one of the Freedom House in that community was a Valentine property that they used to house the civil rights workers in that neighborhood. And the local Klan back up in that neck of the woods-now, I do not know exactly for sure, but I feel like that Burt Brand was the local Klansman leader. Buffmgton: What was his name? Brown: Burt Brand? Buffmgton: Brand, B-R-A-N-D? Brown: Um-hm. They were probably the wealthiest people in that community because they owned like the gin, the cotton gin and stuff, and they had a lot of cottonplanted farms and stuff where they had people, black people working the farms for them and planting the cotton and picking the cotton and hoeing the cotton. Buffmgton: So black people were still picking cotton in the [19]60s. Brown: Amen! Every day, all through cotton season. I can remember they used to let school out early. So during cotton season, they'd let school out early to go pick cotton, for kids to go gather crops, especially these here schools that was out in the county, like- Buffmgton: Montpelier. Brown: -West Clay and all that. They'd like have school like a half a day or something, and the other half of the day the kids went to fields. Buffmgton: So you got all of these people throughout the entire county registered to vote. Brown: Yep.

11 Buffmgton: And so what happened after you got them, everybody [registered]? How many people do you think y'all got registered to vote? Brown: God, I have no idea, but it was a lot. It was enough to make a difference. It was enough to where Clay County finally started having black, elected officials, such as supervisors, aldermens. They started off slow like that, very low offices, but at least we were making some progress. Today we got, in some towns, we got mayors. And back in the [19]60s, in '62 and '63 and '64, there was no way in the world that anybody was black was going to be elected mayor of a town. Buffmgton: So after you got people registered to vote, what was your next project? Was it a boycott came next, the boycott started? And why did that happen? Brown: The boycott, far as I can remember, I don't know exactly what brought that on. (noise of trucks passing) There was a few things that (inaudible) down, and they was trying to do something. Oh! Oh, Lord. I can't remember. Buffmgton: But there was a boycott. Brown: There was a boycott. We pretty much shut West Point down. I mean, like a lot of people that, like on fixed income, they get like they check once a month. They'd go to the stores, grocery stores and stuff, and they'd buy like a month's supply until that next month. Well, we organized where we'd give them rides and stuffto neighboring towns like Columbus or Starkville or somewhere to do their grocery shopping for that month. We had designated drivers to drive the freedom van; they called it. Johnny Thomas was one ofthe guys that drove the van. There were several ofthem. I can't remember all the- Buffmgton: That was Bobby Joe Thomas' father. Brown: Um-hm. We'd pick them up and take them to do their shopping and bring them back. Buffmgton: How were the white people, the power structure reacting? Brown: They was getting scared by this time. And Buff would always say, "The best way to hurt the white folks is hit them in the pocket." And when nobody was spending money downtown, they were hitting them in the pocket. And there was quite strong reactions, but behind that boycott, the Klansmen, they got really involved. They started shooting into the Freedom Houses, trying to run people off and scare people, maybe even kill them. I don't know for sure, but anytime you point a gun towards a person and pull the trigger, the first thing that jumps in my mind is, "He's trying to kill me." Buffmgton: So what would y'all do when they shooting in the Freedom House? Brown: They'd run and hide and duck up under beds and things until this one time out west. Burt Brand (inaudible), they were badder at it than anywhere else. There was several like around whites they did it-i think-once or twice in White Station, but it

12 was more popular back towards the western part of the county. And one night we just decided we'd just set a little ambush for them, too. So they normally would drive their vehicle between, down the streets and park. It wasn't a street; it was a gravel road. And they'd park it in the middle ofthe road, and they'd get out, and they'd fire from the opposite side of the vehicle into the house. So one night myself and some other guys-some of them have passed on now-we decided to hide in the other ditch. So when they got out they vehicles and hid behind they vehicles to shoot into the Freedom House, we were right behind them. So we fired back, not to kill, not to hurt, or not even to hit anybody. We just fired them back to let them know that they could've been killed if we wanted to. And myself and a couple of other guys was arrested for that the very next day. Buffmgton: Where did y'all get the guns from? Brown: We brought our own. Buffmgton: Was Rudy Shield coming in West Point during that time? Brown: Hm. Yeah. Yeah, he was just in and out. I mean, he didn't stay no time. But during that time, most of young, black people had access to a firearm if it wasn't no more than just for hunting squirrels or rabbit. Buffmgton: Were you scared? Brown: We had access to them. Now mind you, we didn't go around carrying firearms every day, but we could get them if we needed them. Buffmgton: So what did the Klansmen do when y'all shot back? Brown: Oh, they flew! They took off because that scared them. That scared them so bad because we were behind them. They had no idea we was in that ditch. Buffmgton: Wayne Crawford(?) told me about that. Brown: They had no idea that we was in that ditch, and then they just, they jumped in they vehicles, and they headed back toward Chickasaw County as fast as they could go. Buffmgton: (laughter) Did they ever come back and try that again? Brown: They never fired into that house again, never. A couple of us went to jail, but we got out, and evidently they dropped the charges or whatever because nothing more ever become of it. Buffmgton: What lawyer would come up and represent the civil rights workers in West Point when they got locked up? Because at one time seven hundred people were locked up. Brown: They had a team. Buffmgton: Was Jess Brown one ofthem?

13 Brown: Jess Brown and-god, I-there was a couple of white guys that was from up North. I can't remember their names now. Then they had a little-they set up a little law firm right downtown, Jesse Pendleton?). And they were nicknamed the civil rights lawyers. (laughter) And they was a great access to us here. They really did a great job. I don't think we could've done all the stuff that was accomplished if it hadn't been for them. Like when they arrested six of us for blowing up the county courthouse, I thought that was the end, you know, because I- Buffmgton: Well, tell me about that. What happened? How did they figure outwhat made them decide it was y'all? Brown: For the life of me, right today, I do not know because I was at home in the bed when they came and got me. They came to my mom's house and got me out of bed and said, "You're under arrest." And I said, "For what?" And-can I say this? Buffmgton: Sure. Brown: They said, "For mischievous mischiefs in the county." I got, sure enough, afraid then because out back of the old city dump, I was growing marijuana, and I thought they had found it. All the way to the jail I had no idea that they were taking me to jail for blowing up the county courthouse. (laughter) I'm sweating and shaking, and I said, "Oh, man, them folks done found my stuff." I mean, nobody knew I had it, not even Buffington. He didn't know I had it. I had gone to the old city dump, and I was growing it in the city dump. And back at that time people probably saw it, but they didn't even know what it was. But anyhow when I got to the jail, when they got me to the jail John Buffington, Charles Williams, Clifton Sykes(?), all of the rest of the guys was already there, once I got there. Buffington asked me, said, "John?" I said, "What?" He said, "Do you know what they arrested you for?" And I said, "Man, they told me mischievous mischiefs in the county." I still ain't mentioned the marijuana yet because I'm just hoping and praying. And I was glad to see them there when I got there because then I knew then that it had to be something else from what I thought it was. Well, he said, "They say we blowed up the courthouse." I said, "Oh, God, no." And I just knew, man, we going to the pen. That's what I was thinking. But the civil rights lawyers, they got us bailed out and got the charges dropped because they-somebody did put something in that courthouse, but till today I don't know what or who because it shook. It shook windows out of it, but we were accused of it. Buffmgton: But didn't one of the local, black citizens tell the police he overheard y'all, said he was walking by the Freedom House, Andrew Dell Young(?), and he overheard y'all discussing the plot to blow the courthouse up? Brown: Yes. Buffmgton: What made him do that? Brown: Now, Andy Dell, he's a good fellow. Buffmgton: Did they beat him? I understood they beat him.

14 Brown: He's my next-door neighbor right now. Buffmgton: Where does he live? Brown: Right there. Buffmgton: Oh, I need to talk to him. OK. Brown: As good a fellow as you can run up on. Buffmgton: Right. Brown: I never knew why he did what he did, but I'm sure it was he was forced to. Now, I heard rumors that there were other charges on him; they told him that they'd drop them ifhe'd do this and that and that. Those are rumors I've heard. I never discussed it with him. I never asked him, but I'm sure he had no other choice. Yeah. Buffmgton: So what led up to the courthouse bombing? What had happened before that? Had there been anything going on, like demonstrations or anybody had gotten killed, or had something happened before that? Brown: Well, Johnny Thomas. Buffmgton: What about the McFarland man? Brown: Oh. Buffmgton: What happened with that? Brown: Henry Mac. Buffmgton: Yeah. Brown: Henry McFarland. We found him and another civil rights worker that was not local; he was from out oftown. Buffmgton: George Best(?). Brown: George Best, they were both black. But they had gone to, I believe, Cimmaron(?), and we found them in a ditch, dead, in a car. And they passed it off; they tried to pass it off as they run off the road into a ditch and drowned, but there was nowhere near enough water in that ditch to drown nobody. Buffmgton: And it was never investigated? Brown: Never investigated. Buffmgton: But now had there been a demonstration or something that day or several days before, and there was a fight? OK. Tell me about that. Do you remember?

15 Brown: Yeah. Old McFarland had to whip somebody downtown, but I can't remember who it was. (clears throat) I don't remember now who it was, but there had been a altercation where they were like physically, licks passed. Buffmgton: In a demonstration. Brown: Um-hm. And mysteriously, a day or two later, they wound up dead, but nobody-they wrote it off as accidental, but I can't see that being an accident. I mean- Buffmgton: You think it should be reopened and investigated? Brown: Yes, I do. I definitely do because there was not near-if you go and look in that ditch right now-and back then, I went and looked in the ditch, myself, and there was nowhere near enough water in that ditch to drown one man, let alone talking about two. It was just impossible. Buffmgton: Tell me something about some of the demonstrations that you had. And there were a lot of them. Brown: Lots ofthem, marches and demonstrations. Buffmgton: Did you march? Brown: Almost every time. I remember we went, one time we went all the way to Washington. Buffmgton: Washington, DC? Brown: DC. Buffmgton: What did y' all go to Washington for? Brown: Went to the White House and demonstrated and marched around out there. And it was a busload ofus. And after the march was over, there in Washington- Buffmgton: Was it the March on Washington? Brown: Yeah. Buffmgton: You was at the March on Washington? Brown: I was there. Right after that- Buffmgton: Tell me about the March on Washington, as much as you can remember. Brown: Lord, I can't-! remember being at the White House. I remember marching. It wasn't near like the marches we was having in West Point because there were no incidents. There were policemens. It was policed, but they were almost polite compared to the reactions that we had during marches in West Point. And I was really surprised because I thought it was going to be like, more like the marches and stuff we

16 had in West Point. And it was like really a peaceful thing, you know. We went and marched, made our statement of what we were there for, and there was no incidents, like no violent outbreaks, and nobody even said any harsh words. But it was very well policed. Buffmgton: Was that the first time you'd ever been out of West Point? Brown: Very first time I left West Point, Mississippi. And after the march was over, the bus loaded up and headed on back to West Point. Buff called me and said, "John, I'm going to New York to do a fundraiser. I've got to speak at a fundraiser." And said, "Do you want to come?'' So me and him got a car and went- we left Washington and went into New York and went to like-it was a school there, a big school we went to, and where he made talks and stuff and raised money to help support the movement back here in West Point. And I feel like he wanted me to go with him so we'd give these people a look at a local from West Point, which was very, very educational to me. Buffmgton: Did you say anything at the meeting? Brown: Yes. They asked me about the schooling conditions, and how I felt about them, and asked questions like, "Are you treated fairly?" And it give me an opportunity to tell them like, the jobs and things was-we got second choices of jobs and stuff. I mean, white folks got the better jobs, the better-paying jobs, and we got what was leftover, things that they didn't want to do or was too-dirty jobs. And I got a chance to tell them that I didn't feel like that was fair. The educational system I didn't feel like was fair, that they had like one school on this side of town and one school on this side of town, and like we were getting like leftover books and stuff; whatever white folks was through with or didn't want was passed onto us, back during the schooling days. And you wouldn't believe that there were places in West Point-I mean, right now you can walk into McDonald's and sit down anywhere you want to in there, and nobody's going to say anything. But there was a time right here that it had to be handed out the back door to you. And then they would let you in, [and] you had to sit in the comer on one side; you couldn't cross over this line, but you was paying the same amount of money. Buffmgton: Who was doing the cooking? Brown: All blacks. Buffmgton: How did the black people act when you went into the store? Brown: Surprised, very surprised. (end of tape one, side two; beginning of tape two, side one) Brown: During that civil rights era, even though my mom had a kid that was very active in the civil rights, she didn't lose her job or anything else because I felt-and I still feel, right today-that the females in the white race were more sympathetic towards the cause of black folks. They knew that they were being mistreated, but they felt like there wasn't really anything they could do about it. And like I feel like some

17 of them was just as afraid of the Klans as the blacks; I'm talking about the females because there's several incidents where what happened like I said about the one telling me, "What you did, you ain't did nothing wrong, but what you did wasn't right." To me that says, "I sympathize, but there ain't nothing I can do about it." And right today you can see that a lot because even in a conversation with them or even when-they're eager to jump in and try to help you out if you're sick, or if you're going through a struggle. The females are very eager to jump in, and I think it's a guilt trip. I feel like it's, they felt, they feel that, "I knew all along this was unfair treatment but couldn't do anything about it." And this is they way of trying to make up or trying to make peace with their own mind after they done got a certain age. After you get a certain age, you get to where, "I ain't scared no more. I don't care." (laughter) Buffmgton: But now, you said something earlier about the demonstrations when y'all were marching. So were they ever any violence? Did they ever do anything? Did the police, did the officers ever try to hurt anybody? Brown: Oh, yeah. Buffmgton: Or threaten you in any way? Brown: Man, we got whipped. Right over here at the local auction bam, sale, cattle sale, me, myself, personally got poked with a cattle prod, an electric cattle prod just for trying to go into the front door of the lunch, where they served lunch. And I worked there. I worked there. I chased cows. They had the auction, and I'd chase cows in and out for them to auction off, but see, you couldn't-they had a little box window for the black people to be served out of. You never even got to go inside the building. You'd go there to that window, and you wanted a hamburger; you'd say, "I want a hamburger." And they'd hand you the hamburger out the window. So one day a few of us got together, Johnny Thomas and several more of us got together and say, "Well, OK. We going in the front door," because, well, he worked there, also. We just did like one day a week. They had sales on Fridays. And on Friday evening I would skip school to go up there to make that $1.25 an hour. And so that day we decided, "Well, we going to go in the restaurant and eat." And we went in there, and man, all hell broke loose. Them white folks come in. And at a sale like that, you got white folks from everywhere, from different other counties and towns because they bring they cattle. All of them bring they cattle to here to be auctioned off. And some of them counties was a lot meaner than others, and man, they were poking folks with cattle prods, hitting folks with fists and bullwhips and- Buffmgton: Were they calling you names? Brown: All kind, "Nigger this, and nigger that." Oh, all kinds of stuff, man. They chased, and we ran, and they'd chase behind us and beat on us. But no police never did anything about that. Buffmgton: How did y'all get away? Brown: They beat us till we ran away. We ran and ran back down the highway, back into town. Eventually they just stopped chasing us, but-

18 Buffmgton: You were in the civil rights movement, now, when you did this? Brown: Yes, but I would go and work on that job every Friday to make that little money. You know they paid like $1.25 an hour, and the job started like at twelve, the auction started like at twelve and went from twelve to whatever time it took them to auction off all the cattle, which would probably be seven or eight in the afternoon, and you done made ten or fifteen dollars. And at that time, for a teenager, ten or fifteen dollars was a good piece of money. So I did that every Friday, no matter what, until this incident happened. That was the last time I've been. I think I've been back to that auction bam once, and that was to get a load of cow manure to go in my garden, and that was a couple of years ago, but I ain't been back there since. And as far as I know, I don't know if that lunch room is integrated now or not, tell you the truth. (laughter) To tell you the truth, I really don't know, and it very well could not be. I think Friday I'm going to go see. I am. (laughter) Buffmgton: Let me back up. Do you remember there was a congressman's son here, and they was trying to integrate the schools out here, out west there. Brown: Yeah. Buffmgton: And one of the police officers had a heart attack and died. Brown: Yeah. Buffmgton: What do you know about that? Brown: I was downtown in jail when that happened. I was in that demonstration, also. They took us to jail, and the policeman-what was that boy's name? Mike Royce, Mike (?)? Buffmgton: Roose(?). The congressman's son? Brown: Uh-huh. Buffmgton: It was Roose. Brown: Roose. Buffmgton: Um-hm. He was from Wisconsin. Brown: Yeah. Yeah. And this policeman got so mad and so excited, he had a heart attack right there in the jailhouse. We was standing right there, looking at him. We was on this side of the bar, and he was on that side of the bar. Right there in the jailhouse he had a heart attack. And they tried to say that Mike had did something to him, but he didn't. He didn't. He didn't even touch him because he was on one side ofthe bar, and the policeman was on the other side ofthe bar. Yeah, man, they-and you talking about-i remember. That brings back to my memory when they took me. Well, this was during Sammy McNeil(?) and Sammy Hollingsworth's(?) reign in the sheriff's department down in West Point, Mississippi. And I had been involved in the civil rights movement quite a number of years at this time. And old Sammy

19 Hollingsworth would come in the jailhouse, come in the cell where I was to whip me in the cell. And I'm laying up there on the top bunk, looking at this man hand this other man his gun, and he going to come in there and lock me and him both up in the cell and whip me. Buffmgton: What were you in jail for? Brown: This didn't have anything to do with the civil rights thing right then, but I had been involved in the civil rights for several years before this here come up. And I had gone to jail for something. I don't know what it was now. I don't remember what it was now, but it was a bunch of us in there. And I was laying on that top bunk, and he closed that door, and when he closed that door, I leaped off that top bunk around his neck. I had to go to Whitfield [Mississippi State Mental Hospital, Whitfield, Mississippi] for that one. Sure did. Buffmgton: The mental institution. Brown: Um-hm. They thought I was stone crazy. But I wasn't about to sit up in there and let that man come in there and beat me. Buffmgton: What was he doing beating you for? Brown: Because the jailor- Buffmgton: Joe Sewell(?)? Brown: It wasn't Joe Sewell. This is a younger guy. He was doing time his own self, but you know what they called a ''trustee." They'd let him out; he'd go around and-and so when he was up in there, and I made the statement, I said, "Hey, man," I said, "Don't you kiss all that ass. Leave some for me." (laughter) And he went back and told the man what I said, and the man was going to come in there and whip me for saying that. But he wore a black eye around here for-well, he still had that black eye when I got back from Whitfield. (laughter) Buffmgton: How long did you stay in Whitfield? Brown: It wasn't but about three or four days because every morning I'd wake up, the doctor he-nobody said anything to me when they locked me up in there. And the man come and said, "What you in here for?" I said to the man, "I don't know. I don't know." And the doctor would come in and look in the door at me, and he'd leave and go on back. Well, the second I got a razor and shaved my head. Buffmgton: How old were you? Brown: At this time I was probably about nineteen then because this was several years. And I shaved my head, but at that time everybody was wearing like a big Afro and everything. And the doctor came in, and so that morning I stopped him, and I said, "Hey, man, what's going on?" I said, "I need to get out of here, and I need to go home." This was like two days later. He said, "Well, Mr. Brown, we 've had you under observation," said, "but I ain't seen you do but one thing that didn't make no

20 sense." Said, "Everybody is growing their hair really long and stuff now, and you shave all yours off." I said, "Well, man, I don't have a comb or nothing in here to keep it clean and combed out, so the only sensible thing for me to do is to get rid of it." And he said, "That makes sense." He said, "If I let you out now, what are you going to do?" I says, "I'm going to go home." He says, "Can you get home?'' I said, "All you got to do is open the door and give me a phone." And they let me out, because they- Buffmgton: Who picked you up? Brown: My mom and my uncle Joey Shaw(?). I called them and told them. And my Uncle Joey Shaw drove my mom to get me. The police carried me-not the police, the county sheriff carried me, but after they found out that I wasn't crazy, wasn't nothing wrong with me, they let me out, and my mom had to pick me up. That was all, to me that was all self-defense. Buffmgton: Hm. Now, you spoke earlier about Mrs. Adams. She was one ofthe, probably the only woman at that time that put herself out there for civil rights workers. What kind of things was happening with her? How did the white people treat her? Brown: They made it hard for her. Buffmgton: Did they ever bum crosses and stuff in her yard? Brown: Yes, they did. They did that all, at several different people's houses. They burned crosses in her yard, not only once but several times. Then there were other womens, older womens that was very active in the movement, also, like Ms. Eggerson(?). She's passed on. And Ms. Swift(?), I don't know if she's still around or not. And several ofthe women out of Utica that I can't even remember their names now, but there were several women. I know the other day you asked me about some women, and I couldn't think of their names, but there was several of them. There were more female out of Yuna(?) than there were males that was very active in the civil rights, but I can't recall any of them's name. Now, I can see their faces and stuff in my mind, but I can't recall their names. That's been a long time ago. Buffmgton: Yeah, it has. It's been forty-something years ago. So when did-were you-now, the civil rights movement was in the [19]60s, so you had voter registration, and then you went from voter registration to economic boycotts, boycotting the stores. Brown: Um-hm. Buffmgton: So after you did that and looking at the town now, there isn't a store downtown, not a single store down there. There are one or two little stores, but basically all of these stores that was there never recovered from the boycott. Brown: Never have. Buffmgton: And so what were some of the demands that you-all were asking for during the boycott?

21 Brown: We had a list ofthem. I got that list somewhere. It's got to be here, but I can't- Buffmgton: One of the things was to hire black people in the store. Brown: Hire black cashiers and stuff. And that was the main, that was one of the main things. Buffmgton: Did you ever get, did the black cashiers ever get hired? Brown: That's about all we got now. At almost every store you go into now in West Point, that's operational, the majority of the cashiers are black. I mean all the way down to your supermarkets. We only got two here now, like Sunflower and Kroger. Ninety percent of the cashiers are young, black females. And almost all your convenience stores are or all the convenience stores, except the ones that's owned by the Arabs-you know they ain't going to hire nobody but Arabs. Buffmgton: Um-hm, Arabics. Brown: Arabs or whatever you-i can't-(laughter) Buffmgton: Um-hm. (laughter) Brown: But all of them is mostly black cashiers. Buffmgton: Do you see, out of all of the things that happened-and you didn't tell me about what happened during the boycott. There was another person killed, Mr. Thomas. What do you recall about that? What was going on at that time? Brown: Well, it was a lot ofhostility going on right at that time. Now, the story that I had heard about that incident was he stopped at a local convenience store, I think, for cigarettes or something. And him and the guy at one of the-not the store owner but one of the guys, another customer at the store had words. And somebody said he asked him for a lighter for a cigarette or a light for a cigarette or something. I can't, I don't remember exactly now because it's been a long time ago, and a lot of this stuff I done forgot. But anyhow he shot him right there in the parking lot. And Johnny Thomas-Baby Boy, we called him-he was the kind of fellow you couldn't push too far. I mean either black or white; I mean you just couldn't push him too far. Good fellow, would help you any way he could, but he was short-tempered. Buffmgton: Now, was he working in John Buffington's mayoral, mayor campaign? Brown: Yes, he was. Yes, he was. I don't know-as a matter of fact, me and him was supposed to go and do something together that day, and I got hung up doing something else, is the only reason I wasn't with him when he got shot. Buffmgton: How did Buffington take his killing? Brown: Very bad, he took it very hard, very hard. Of course we all did because we all loved him. We loved him. He was, he was like-