Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, Inc. 2005

Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, Inc. 2005 Interview of Former Special Agent of the FBI Carlton C. Lenz (1939-1968) Interviewed by John C. McAvoy On Edited for repetitions, spelling, etc. by Sandra Robinette on February 27, 2005. Final edit from comments of Mr. Lenz and Mr. Hollstein by Sandra Robinette on April 1, 2005. This is John C. McAvoy. I am interviewing Carlton C. Lenz, for the Society of Former Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Oral History Program. Today is June 26 th, 2003. This interview is taking place in Athens, Georgia. I m going to ask Carl to read the Copyright Release and Background Form. This is Carl Lenz. I am going to read the copy of the Release and Background Form. We, the undersigned, convey the rights to the intellectual content of our interview on this date Okay. We re proceeding with the interview of Carl Lenz, and, Carl, you can commence. You were going to talk about your fellow employee stenographers in the New York Office. At the time I was a stenographer, there were four other male stenographers, including Jack McCool, who became a Special Agent. It was his mother who had suggested I get in touch with the Bureau in the New York Office and apply for a job there. Jack McCool, Hal Doherty and Vincent Ascherl were three of the other male stenos. Subsequently, only Hal Doherty did not become an Agent but he did become a Special Employee and he went to South America. Could you tell us a little bit about why he went to South America? I believe it was principally because he could fit into a higher grade and the Bureau could use him in its operations in South America. So he was a Special Agent? No, he was not a Special Agent. If he had credentials they probably identified him as a Special Employee. He was a stenographer and always remained a stenographer. He was an excellent stenographer. And the other name, once again, was? 1

Page 2 Hal Doherty, D-o-h-e-r-t-y. I m stayed in touch with him until he dies, 5/17/04. He s older than I am. I m 89. Great. That sounds very good because the SIS is something that I understand historically is not very well documented and now that s one of our goals, to do that. Well, we ll talk about that off tape. Okay. If you would continue. You were going to tell us about your fellow employee stenographers. Yes. And I also identified some of the fellows that worked with me in the photo lab. All of whom became Agents, except for Frank Swartz. Swartz had come up from the Bureau to take over as assistant to Don Bucher, and was an excellent photographer. Did Don ever become an Agent? Don never became an Agent. He retired as Head Chief Photographer in the New York Office. He retired, as far as I know, as a photographer. He is now dead. Now, you had discussed you had Special Agent Limited Credentials. What did that mean, Limited? Yes. That was something that was never, you know, laid out to us. But, in my case, there was no question in my mind, it was because of a lack of a degree. I was on probation for a two-year period until I could prove that I could handle the job. And it was when I was assigned to the Chicago Office that I got my full credentials and limited was removed. There was no distinction from that time on as to my status as a Special Agent, nor were my assignments limited... All right. If you could just clear me up on this issue. What year did you go to Training School? 1943, I went to Quantico, Virginia. Quantico. And you went to the full Agent s training, is that correct? Firearms and? 2

Page 3 Oh yes. And, took all the exams down there. We had four exams -- all of which required a grade of 85 or better. There were, initially, 35 men in the class and we lost five, who either failed on their exams or one failed because of Firearms. There was also another Agent, who sat next to me in class, his name was Curtis LaFrance, and he was related to the American LaFrance people who manufactured fire engines. Curtis was a student. Curtis was not an outdoors man. He spoke four or five languages, including Russian, and he had been assigned to Washington Field Office. He was hoping that when he got his credentials as an Agent, they d send him someplace else, but all he got was a transfer, on the streetcar, back to Washington Field Office. I have not seen him since, and I really don t know if he s still listed in one of the directories. I meant to look him up so often, but I never got around to it. Now, tell me a little bit about what was your training like at Quantico. First of all, you were on the Marine barracks? We were on the Marine Base. Yes. And the first thing that comes to mind is getting up in the morning and, at that time, the Marines were already marching past the Academy, the FBI Academy for their firearms training. They got up much earlier than we did. Classes for Agents were from 9 in the morning till 9 at night, five days a week. Saturday was 9 to 6, and Sunday was 9 to 1. So that s seven days a week actually, isn t it? It s seven days a week but it was only the five days that were 9 to 9, and Saturday it was from 9 to 6, and Sundays, from 9 to 1. And how many weeks were you involved in this? It was four months... sixteen weeks. One of the people in my class was Monk Edwards, who played guard or tackle for the New York Giants football team. There was something about Monk. He was sharp. On one occasion, when the lecturer was explaining what he had to tell us, he called on Monk Edwards because he said he wasn t taking notes. So he called on Monk Edwards and said, Why aren t you taking notes? 3

Page 4 And Monk said, Because I can retain what you ve told me. So, the lecturer proceeded to question him and Monk knew the answers. He had a photographic memory or whatever it was it took. But he was excellent and when I was in the Newark Office later on, I saw Monk and we got together. I took his wife to, well his wife took me, to the game that he was playing at that time at the New York Polo Grounds. But we had a very good class, as they say. We had 35 and five of them were dropped for one reason or another. One fellow had a habit of saying, I know I m not the smartest person in class, but I don t understand that. And they finally figured out that maybe he s not the smartest and they moved him out. Now, when you completed Agent s Training, did you get to meet Mr. Hoover? Not specifically. I know that class ended up in the night, and we were on our way the next day to our offices of assignment. And what was your first office of assignment? My first office of assignment was Philadelphia. I was put on the Criminal Squad there. What kind of cases did you work? They were sort of minor criminal thefts from, maybe from Federal agencies. One of the Federal hospitals down there was having a series of small things taken from them and they asked if we d look in to it. The fellows that were suspected drove a garbage truck. So we followed the garbage truck and, at one point, pulled him over and searched the truck. They had utensils, minor things that would certainly not warrant arresting them but it did curb the problem. Now, how long did you spend in Philadelphia? 4

Page 5 About four months. We got a room, at that time. I had a son, a little boy, and my wife, Eleanor, E-l-e-a-n-o-r. We lived with an elderly woman in West Philadelphia, and she was a delightful woman. She took a shine to my wife and the boy. He was only one year old. Okay, so there was no real significant case that you worked on. You were there four months; and it was your first office of assignment. Right. And the year, was this 1943 or 1944? This would have been in 1944, I think. It was the end of 43 and the beginning of 44. What was your next office of assignment? I was on the Criminal Squad in Philadelphia and I had no unusual assignments or incidents but while I was in Philadelphia, I got orders to transfer to Chicago. I wasn t sure I wanted to go to Chicago. And why was that? I had a home in New Jersey and I just was reluctant to give up my home. I didn t know what I would be doing with my home. I figured I d have to sell it because I d be on the western trek. Probably from Chicago, you know. I d wind up on the West Coast or something like that. I told John F. Sears, who was the SAC at Philadelphia, that I didn t want to accept the assignment to Chicago. I was uncertain of my grounds as a first office Agent. I was somewhat hesitant and was feeling Sears out. What did Mr. Sears say? 5

Page 6 And Mr. Sears said, If that s the way you feel, okay. I went home and I told my wife that I d been transferred to Chicago and that I d said that I didn t want to go. She said, I don t think that s a very good start in your life as a Special Agent. I think you ought to give some thought to it. I finally realized she was right. And the next morning, I went in to see Mr. Sears, and he hadn t done anything with regard to my initial decision. I said, I m going to take the assignment to Chicago. So, I did, and my life continued as an Agent. I don t know what would ve happened had I actually refused the assignment. And then what was your career like in Chicago, and do you recall any highlights of being assigned in Chicago? Yes. In Chicago, I was put on the Security Squad and, for most of the time, I was on plants, listening in on telephone taps. And what was the target? The Communist Party was the organization that was the main subversive organization. I came in just ahead of an inspection of the office. The Inspectors did something different, as I understand, than they had done or that had happened at other inspections. This was my first inspection in an office. Did you have a radio car too? I had a radio car and I could get music from the West Coast or Utah, better than I could get the two-way calls from the office. That was actually in Newark. We had two-way radios in Chicago and they worked a little better. But, the ones in Newark were terrible. They didn t function at all. So how long were you in Chicago? I was in Chicago in 44 to 45, and left sometime in September of 1945; in the fall, at least, of 1945. I went to Newark. 6

Page 7 But, in connection with Chicago, I did get put on an Extortion case and lived in the home of a bank president in Harvey, Illinois, who was being extorted for the full amount of the assets printed on the bank window. It so happened that the extortionist called the bank president and threatened him. Coincidentally there was an Agent in the lobby of the hotel (where the bank was) standing close to the phone and overheard the subject s side of the conversation. As soon as he could he called Chicago and a case was opened right away. They sent Bill Pine and myself to Harvey, Illinois, where we stayed in the home of the bank president for about two, maybe three weeks. Our main assignment was to listen in on all his incoming calls and report everything having to do with the case. Bill and I weren t in on the office plans but the subject apparently set up a meeting in a tavern in Wisconsin, not far from Harvey, Illinois. Apparently it was a popular place for married and single couples. So to accommodate the situation Chicago used some female personnel plus Agent to act as decoys. A message was passed to the properly identified couple in the tavern with directions for the pay off. Just one Agent was to follow the directions but there was another Agent concealed on the back floor of the car. I wasn t in a position for details from here on except to say whatever plans they laid out were successful and the pickup of the subjects and money successful. Bill and I stayed at the home of the victims. This happened 55 or more years ago. Okay, we re starting on a brand new tape. The time is now three minutes till noontime on June 26 th, 2003. This is John McAvoy continuing with the interview of Carl Lenz, and we re all set to go. So take it away Carl. While I was in Chicago, there was an interesting incident that happened, which was part of the Criminal Squad. I was on the Security Squad, but the whole office knew about this. 7

Page 8 There were two Agents looking for a truck driver who was coming in off the road. There were two entrances, separated by a building, so that one Agent took up a position on one end and the other Agent took one at the other end. They couldn t see each other. The truck driver came in at the one end. He was approached by the Agent, and the Agent had him get out of the cab of the truck, and proceeded to put him under arrest. He had his gun on him. The fellow had just turned his back to him, and put his hands up on the side of the cab of the truck. The Agent put his gun back in his holster. The subject, looking over his shoulder, saw this happening, swung around and hit the Agent and knocked him down. Took his gun and took his cuffs, and cuffed the Agent. Fortunately, he cuffed him in the front and not behind his back. He took the Agents car, the Bureau car, put the Agent in the passenger seat and he got in the driver s seat. He told the Agent that he might as well kill him because he was going to be prosecuted anyway for having assaulted an FBI Agent. He took him down to South Chicago. The Agent related to us later on that he noticed that the subject had the Agent s gun and when he turned the corner, he put the gun in his lap to turn the wheel. So at one of these turnings, the Agent leaned over, got the gun in the subject s lap, didn t try to pull it out of his lap, but just pulled the trigger a couple of times and shot him in the stomach. Didn t kill him. The guy ran out, down the street and police cars came along about the same time. Here s one fellow chasing another guy and the fellow that was doing the chasing, had a gun in his hand, and they couldn t quite figure out what was going on. But the subject did finally collapse. I can t recall at this time whether he was killed, or whether he just collapsed from loss of blood. The Agent was fortunate to have gotten away as well as he did. But I don t think he stayed in the Bureau much longer. He went back to the farm in Iowa. What was the outcome of that? Did the Agent get in any trouble or was he commended for the case? 8

Page 9 Well, I would imagine he was commended. Oh, in one respect, but in the other, he did some foolish things. Things that the instructors at the Bureau gave out, especially about noticing whether or not, you know, the subject would be looking over his shoulder and to see what you re doing. Was there only one Agent on that arrest, and no other Agents? There were two Agents but, see, they were separated. Oh. Because they didn t know which entrance he was going to come in. But they hadn t looked far enough ahead to realize that maybe they should have two at each end, you know. So, they goofed. I think they probably got a letter of commendation followed by a letter of censure for that time. That would be SOP for that time period. Yes, I guess so. But I m not sure. And then, I think, you got transferred to Newark? Then I got transferred to Newark. That was in the fall of 1945. The SAC was Sam McKee. Sam McKee had been the SAC in Washington Field, and transferred to Newark. Do you have any recollection of interesting cases or important cases that you were aware of in Newark? I was on a Security Squad again, and got involved, though, with the Criminal Squad because they needed more men. They had a Theft From Interstate Shipment that we were sitting on to get the guys coming off the road. We had two men in the back with shotguns and a driver, up front, with another assistant there, but he didn t have a shotgun. He had just his own firearm. The SAC was on the job too. The thing that happened that was humorous and enlightening, to me anyway. He said, Tell CCL that we got an apartment for him. 9

Page 10 And that was nice to know because my wife was living in Long Island and I was living in New Jersey, so it was nice to know. In Newark we had two girls, sisters. They were married. And their married last names were Smalley and the other, Largey. It just so happened that Largey was small girl and Smalley was big. A humorous situation. I was assigned to the Security Squad eventually, and I was handling Espionage, Sabotage and Key Subversive. We had three Security Squads in Newark and I was the Number One Supervisor. And what did that Security Squad handle? The Security Squad No.1 handled Espionage, Sabotage and Key Subversives. The other two squads had individual members of the Communist Party. I had about 30 men on my squad. And one of the cases assigned to me was Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer, the head of the Atomic Energy Development. This case on Dr. Oppenheimer was assigned to me before I was made a supervisor. Dr. Oppenheimer was at the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton, New Jersey. The case I had was the Atomic Energy Act, in which his background was looked into, being a member on the campus of Princeton of the Atomic Energy, and being an employee, a top employee of the Atomic Energy. He was married to a woman named whose first name was Kitty, and Kitty had previously been married to a former Russian spy. So this gave us great concern about the loyalty of Dr. Oppenheimer. I went down to Princeton quite a bit and visited and talked to Dr. Oppenheimer. His office, which was on the campus of the Institute, was approximately well, I ll take that back. I want to say his office was made up of three rooms before you got into his office. There was also an Atomic Energy guard there, and a big German police dog in his outer office. Dr. Oppenheimer s well known pork pie hat (261) was on the hat stand in the front office. 10

Page 11 His secretary was also named Kitty. I remember one time, the first time we went in to see Dr. Oppenheimer. Special Agent John Lyons was with me at that time. John just died here in March of 2004. Kitty came in Dr. Oppenheimer s office with us. He had a huge blackboard, on which were hieroglyphics and extremely advanced mathematics that were, you know, an unknown language to me, but Kitty went over and started to close off the blackboard. When she went to do that, Dr. Oppenheimer said, That s all right Kitty, Mr. Lenz and Mr. Lyons are completely cleared. So she left them open, which was just as safe. We didn t understand a thing that was posted on there. The Institute for Advanced Study was made up of top atomic scientists from all over the world. They would have high tea at 4 o clock in the afternoon, to which I was invited to attend by Dr. Oppenheimer. Einstein was on the campus too. I would see Einstein. He was never one of my cases, but I would see Einstein walking around the Princeton campus. He would wear a gray sweatshirt and ordinary pants; but they tell me that, on Sunday, he dressed up in a blue sweatshirt. But he had his Tim cap on all the time. And he was pleasant enough, he d smile and say hello to you. But somebody else in Newark had his case. I also interviewed, John Lyons and I, also interviewed a British atomic scientist. His last name was Skirme, S-k-i-r-m-e. I don t remember his first name. When we went to interview him, in his office, we sat in a chair and Skirme lay on the floor and ate a banana with the skins on. Oddities. We only had one interview with him. Perhaps a month after our first visit with Dr. Oppenheimer, who incidentally, as best I can recall, went to Harvard at the age of 14. He was a brilliant man. What was the off-shoot of the case with Oppenheimer? 11

Page 12 Well. One of the things that happened, and I m not too sure I can answer that question, although he continued to maintain his position with the Atomic Energy. He called me at home one Saturday morning. My wife answered the phone, she recognized the name of Oppenheimer. He said, This is Dr. Oppenheimer, is Mr. Lenz there? And she said, Yes. And she called me to the phone. I said, Yes, Dr. Oppenheimer. He said, Mr. Lenz, I m just reporting to you that Bruno Pontecorvo, the Italian scientist, has just left the Institute for Advanced Study, and is on his way to New York to board the Polish ship, the Batory. B-a-t-o-r-y. He said, I think he s going back to Italy. I just want you to know. But before they could get to the Batory, he had already boarded it. So they weren t able to board the Polish ship. So, Pontecorvo went back to Italy and, I don t know if he was even a Communist or not. But anyway, it kind of pointed up Oppenheimer s sincerity and his loyalty. Oh, there was also an indication that Oppenheimer, himself, was going on a trip, a sailing trip. Well, we got a little concerned about whether or not he was going to be picked up by some ship that was at sea, and leave this country. We set up a plant on him, on one of these canopies that the telephone people have at the top of their poles for repair work out of the weather. We set up Agents there to watch and observe his movements. He never did, as far as I know, he never did go on a voyage. So, there was nothing to report. I ll take a minute here to regroup my notes and see what comes up next. In 1954, I was transferred to the Seat of Government and spent the next 14 years at the Seat of Government. And what capacity did you serve there in? I was assigned to the Domestic Intelligence Division, under Assistant Director Al Belmont, and to the Section that was under Section Chief Fred Baumgardner, and put on a desk covering the Communist Party operations in various offices. 12

Page 13 So you had Communist Party USA? Communist Party USA. In certain geographical areas of the country? Yes. That s right. Do you recall what the Section might have been? It was the Internal Security Section. They were divided according to the Field Offices, but I don t remember the Field Offices I had. But I was taken off that and put on the Membership of the Communist Party USA. They gave me the assignment of ascertaining whether or not the number of members or participants in the Communist Party were up in the 20,000 or so. And, as a result, to reduce the Communist Party with those people that were just so-called Pinkos, and, maybe students of the Communist Party, that really were not sincere members of the Party. We reduced at least 5,000 off the list. But I told Baumgardner, that I was handling it alone, and there was so much work attached to it, that I couldn t keep up with it. That didn t cut much ice with Fred. I got some help and completed the main phase of reducing the membership of the CP in the U.S. by 5,000 plus. Thereafter, I was assigned to the CP Security, Informants in New York, Chicago and Los Angeles offices. The Agents handling the informants would clear with me all administrative detail. Any incident that came up, they would also have to be in touch with me. I had are you aware of the Operation Solo? I m not sure that I m totally familiar with that. The Operation Solo: The FBI s Man in the Kremlin is a book written by John Barron, who for 20 years had been the Chief Editor, Senior Editor of Reader s Digest. He s written other spy books and he s very knowledgeable and has testified at many of the Government s trials. 13

Page 14 The story he wrote concerns the development of top echelon informants. and I didn t know who they were. As a matter of fact, when I went to an ex-agent s meeting, at Ft. Myers in Washington, DC, John Barron was there. He was signing and autographing his books. I said to him, You know, I only now know who the very top unknown informants were. I didn t have any idea. He said, You weren t supposed to. So I followed through very well, I just didn t know. And even when I asked my Unit Chief, he said, I don t know. And this then later came out publicly in the book? It came out publicly in the book. It s a terrific book. He was in the Kremlin. The informant? Morris. And these are mentioned in the book? Can I look at your book? Yes. I want to just make a record that the book title is, Operation Solo: The FBI s Man in the Kremlin. It s by John Barron, B-a-r-r-o-n. That s the book we re discussing. And it says he was the Senior Editor of Readers Digest, in the back, on the fly leaf. Okay. So... I ve read in the course of your assignments to the Top Echelon Informants; they were in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles those were the areas that you covered? Yeah. Right. 14

Page 15 Just for the purposes of record, did you determine the percentage of the individual Communist Party units that were FBI informants? Yeah, I couldn t recall the figures, at all, at this time. Here s what I m trying to get to. There, in my understanding, there was a time in the history of the Communist Party USA, where there were numerous, a high percentage of each cell was actually FBI informants. Now just as a general statement, we re talking the time period around 1954. Is it your knowledge that there was, you know, maybe just one or two sources in each cell? Or maybe there were cells where you didn t even have a source? Or, is your recollection that the sources, or that the individual cells were well-penetrated with a large number of informants? Well, I can attest to Newark. The secretary of the Communist Party there was an informant of ours, and so was his wife. Strangely enough, they entered into an Americanism contest in which they had to write a thesis or paper on Americanism and they won it, and got a Tucker car. Do you recall the Tucker that came out then? Yes. And, I don t think it ever came out, but they were informants for the FBI. As a matter of fact, they refused to testify against the Party. So, we discontinued them. But, we always had a program for the development of informants. I went with the Agents, from time to time, as a back-up. While you were at Headquarters? No. No, this is back in Newark. Back in Newark. Okay, in the field? In Newark. The development of the informants would have been through the Field Office. Right. That s right. And I just wanted to clarify that. 15

Page 16 Yeah. Right. In some cases, at least while some Agents were not successful, those that I went with the Agents, we didn t get an informant but we got somebody we could go back to maybe and talk to, to give us a clear idea of certain things. In other words, he wasn t a whole-hearted Communist member, and he was willing to sort of educate us about the Party. This man happened to be a dentist. I don t recall his name at all; as a matter of fact, it wasn t my case. Now, while you were working at FBI Headquarters in the Domestic Intelligence Division, you were indicating that you were operating, or supervising the operation of Top Informants in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles. And you mentioned Operation Solo. Were there any other major events or cases that come to mind in that area? I wasn t see, I wasn t handling cases then. You were supervising? I was a Supervisor, but I was handling the informants and the Agents that were working these Top Informants. I knew all the informants but not the big one. That s because well, as you, you can see from this book, Solo, they made trips all over the world as a representative of the Communist Party, Morris Childs. Carl Fryman was the Agent who in New York Office, and I think he went no, Chicago Office. He might have been in New York, but he handled them mostly from Chicago. So then the cases themselves, and the activities, I wasn t sure. It was only when an incident came up that I would get to know something about it, but they would also be in touch with me to get some counseling where an Agent went off half-cocked. Were the informants paid? 16

Page 17 Oh yes. Informants were well paid. He was, I can t remember, several thousand dollars a month, but he produced it would have cost millions of dollars to get something like this. There are pictures in there, of Childs sitting at the table with Khrushchev, right at the table in the Kremlin, and they trusted him completely. And, when he came back from trips, that information would go to the President, quickly. I might want to also tell you that I was, in the Bureau, what I meant, the Seat of Government, for my 20 th and 25 th anniversary. I believe it was on the 25 th anniversary. I took my wife and my two children to meet the Director. There s a picture of them there (pointing to a photo on my wall of the Director, my wife Eleanor, my daughter Laura and son Bruce). Miss Gandy took us in to the Director. He greeted us very nicely and carried on a conversation. Then he said, Mr. Lenz, has your family toured the Bureau yet? I ve been in the Bureau now, oh, I was down there about four, five years, I guess, at least. I had to think rather quickly because I didn t want to say no because I wanted to show more interest in the Bureau than that. Why, yes, I said, well, I ve taken my wife and children on the tour of the Bureau, but they want to see it again. And he said, Fine, fine. Good. He turned to Sam (Sam Noisette, the Director s chauffeur and generally available as needed) and said, Sam, set up a tour for Mr. Lenz and his family. So I said, Thank you Mr. Hoover. And we left and got out in to the outer office. I said to Sam, Sam, you don t have to bother with the tour. We have taken a tour. He said, Mr. Lenz, if Mr. Hoover said you re going to take a tour of the Bureau with your family, you re going to take a tour of the Bureau with your family. (Both laughing) I said, You re right, Sam, I am. I said, I m sure there are some new things that we would want to look at. So, I got over that hump. But that may be about it. I mean there are other things I haven t said anything about or don t recall the facts anymore. That s the end. 17

Page 18 Okay. We re going to wrap this interview up here and take a break, and it s possible that if we think of anything else, we may reactivate the tape. But right now it s 12:31 on June 26 th, 2003. This is John McAvoy and I m about to turn the tape off, concluding an interview with Carlton C. Lenz. 18