U-03H% INTERVIEWER: NICHOLE GIBBS INTERVIEWEE: ROOSEVELT STOKES, JR. I'm Nichole Gibbs. I'm the interviewer for preserving the Pamlico County African-American History. I'm at the Pamlico County Library at 10:45 a.m. on April 28, 2007. I'll be interviewing Rev. Roosevelt Stokes, Jr. and his current address is 505 South Street, Bayboro, North Carolina. INTERVIEWER: Okay, Mr. Stokes, would you like to tell me some things about you currently that's going on in your life? INTERVIEWER: At present or Present, now, yes. MR. ROOSEVELT: Well, right now, I'm at the church that my cousin, Pastor Mike Monk and I've been there for 3 years, 3 % A years, since I came back from Boston. I came back five years ago. And, I help him with whatever he asks me to do. Sometimes, I do prayer service and sometimes I preach and other times I, he has a ministry at the nursing home, Britthaven. He does the ministry at Britthaven in New Bern and I do the one down here in Pamlico County and that has worked out very successfully. I'm very pleased to be able to help out wherever I can. On Saturdays, we go out to soul visitation; that is where we go and we go out to Wal- Mart or other places and pass out tracks. Today, I think we're going into peoples homes, out in the project area, just asking people do they know the Lord and are they saved and questions of those sort. And, would they like to come to our church. We believe that God has empowered us, churches, to try to help save other people. If you are saved, you ought to be able to share it; you ought to be able to try to help anyone else wherever you can, because, after all, God's goal was that nobody would be lost; that everyone be saved. Now, we know that everyone is going to be saved, but that doesn't stop us from going out trying to do the best we can to help others as well
as we help ourselves. So, briefly, my wife and I, she goes with me everywhere I go. INTERVIEWER: What is your wife's name? Queen, Queen Esther Stokes, a biblical name out of the bible. So, she goes basically wherever I go. And, we are just enjoying sharing our lives since we've been back here together, doing things, helping others. INTERVIEWER: And while you're describing that, can you name the community you've lived in? You said you were bora and raised here and you moved to Boston. Can you describe some of the things that were going on here while you were a youth? Well, I was born and raised in Florence. It's kind of isolated from the rest of the world. It sets right on the waterfront in Florence. My father had a big farm, 50 acres of land and his grandfather owned another 75 acres of land adjoining his. So, my father and my grandfather basically controlled the whole waterfront for miles. And, of course, they since have sold that property and, we actually gave it away but didn't know at the time that land was going to go up the way it is now because waterfront land now is almost like gold. It's like they're having a gold rush down there; everybody's rushing down to Florence, Whortonsville, Pamlico, Oriental, Broad Creek. That whole area now is just filled up with homes, I mean rich homes, big homes. So, while we thought we were out there in the woods in no man's land, it actually turned out to be a paradise for a lot of people. As a matter of fact, there is a place further down that's called Paradise Shores. So, sometimes, you can't see the trees for the forest. INTERVIEWER: What kind of crops did you grow??.
My father grew some of everything. He had sweet potatoes, he had peanuts, he had soy beans, he had corn. We would raise cucumbers, and most of the things that you have in a garden. So, he raised, and tobacco was his number one thing which I really at the time hated, that's what really drove me to Boston. I hate pulling tobacco. Not only did he have his own, he rented from this man, this gentleman called Mr. Joe Martin who had, at that time, he had the grocery store right out on the corner and he had a big farm behind his store and my father rented his farm for years and he tended it for years, tobacco, corn, peas, and all the other things that would grow down there at the time. So, like I told people a lot of times, we didn't have all the clothes that a lot of people had, but we certainly never went hungry because we had plenty of food. My mother would can and preserve a lot of things to cover the winter, so they grew the watermelons, they grew some of everything, sweet potatoes, Irish potatoes; they used to sell those. We used to pick the string beans, they used to sell those. And there was a lot of things that they raised that we did not have to buy. And that's one of the problems that inhibiting the young people today is because most of the farms are gone and, if they do have land, they're, I don't know, I won't say sorry, but too lazy. Why would you want to go... I've been down here, and ever since I've been here, I've had me a garden every year. If you have land, why would you want to go and buy all these collard greens and all this stuff from the store, when you can, even cabbage, and white potatoes, when you can raise all of it? That's what... they talking about not having any money; of course, you don't. INTERVIEWER: I can understand that as being, you know, younger. And, also, what I would like to add onto... where there any, like, names of Black-owned businesses in the town? After Mr. Joe Martin died, my uncle, Garfield, he was Black, he built a store, he had a store and that's where everybody went to hang out and, if you want to talk young and old, of course, you didn't hang around the old 3
INTERVIEWER: I understand that too much, in those days, you know; you had to get around your own group, but everybody went out there; we went out there and we played and then we would talk and a lot of times I would sneak in with the older people because they didn't ever run me out and just listen to hear what was going on because they had all the wisdom and all the experience and you learned a lot just by listening to them. They had these jokes; they told stories, but it was always clean jokes. There were never any bad jokes, never. They would tell stories on things that people did, little pranks they'd pull on someone, or things that people did, so, it was just a great experience. There were Black businesses down in Oriental. There used to be a hangout place where all the young people used to go, the Merritt shop. They were Black. They had a shop, something like the one in Bayboro which was called the "Do Drop In", people used to hang out there and that's where the young people used to go and dance and, as we said at the time, we didn't say at that particular time, we didn't call it "letting our hair down", we just called it having a good, you know. And so, the same thing was in Bayboro, the same thing was in Vandemere, and they had those shops in Mesic and Maribel. It was owned by Blacks, and there were beaches that were owned or controlled by Blacks. That, basically, is a thing of the past now because, like I said, everywhere there's a piece of water, it's owned by whites now because Blacks have sold out and gone on. Now, there are a few people down in Whortonsville and Florence who still have their homes but there are no farms, there are no businesses. Now, they just live there. And when they die out and go on, because their children have moved out and gone on. They chose not to carry on the legacy, the children are gone. And, so I left. In 1959,1 left and went to Boston with my sister. Her husband was stationed in Ft. Blevins in 4
service and when he got out of service, he took a job with the Veterans Hospital and she came home one summer and I went back to Boston with her. That was in 1959. Now, when I got to Boston, my wife, she and I were tentatively engaged, so I sent her an officially engagement ring about six months later. I came back in December and on Christmas eve, we got married in 1959, left Christmas day, and when I came back to Boston, and we stayed there for 43 years. And my children were raised in Boston. We called ourselves giving them a better opportunity for a better education. INTERVIEWER: Did you see what was a difference between when you were in Boston and coming back to Pamlico County years later? That's a good question. Let me tell you the difference between going to Boston and being in Pamlico County. When we were in Pamlico County, there were segregation here, for sure. And there were people who were, what they call racial, but the little town that we came up, grew up in, there wasn't much of that going on, if it was, it was hidden, because everybody had to depend on everybody else. The whites and the Blacks depended on each other to get their crops in. So, they're not going to be calling you names when they need you to get their crops in. INTERVIEWER: True. So, everybody, really, I gotta be honest with you. They got along great. You never heard tell of any racial fights. You never heard tell of anybody calling each other names. We used to go to that white store that I was talking about there and the whites would come out and sit down and the Blacks and the whites and they all talked together. INTERVIEWER: Well, did you have any children at this time? 5
At this time, I didn't have any children. I didn't have any children until I went to Boston, so when I went to Boston, as I said, we got married Christmas eve. Now, the difference between down here and Boston was this. Down here, you knew there were certain places you couldn't go and shouldn't go. They had signs up, you know, they would say right up, "No Blacks", or "No Negroes." You went into restaurants, you ate on one side, and they ate on the other side. Or, you went around to a back window and got your food. That's why I didn't have to worry about it because my mother cooked all our food so I didn't have to worry about whether I was going to have to go to the back or the front. INTERVIEWER: Okay. So, when I got to Boston, I found out this, that they said there was no segregation, but it was just as segregated almost as the south. The difference was that, if I wanted into a restaurant, yeah, I could go and sit down in the restaurant, I could go and eat at any place that the whites ate, we ate together. But, when it came to housing, when it came to schools, the schools were basically segregated, because the Blacks went to one area, they went into their area, and the whites went into their area. And, if the whites didn't want their kids to go to the Black area, they moved out of the Black area and moved to the white area. So, then this lady, Louise Day Hicks, she started talking about "defacto segregation." She was one of the biggest bigots you ever saw in your life. This lady was terrible, and she would get right on television, and say, "I, my kids ain't going over to Roxboro". Because, they were saying that they were going to start busing the kids all over, so that everybody, because the Blacks started complaining that the Black kids were not getting the same equal teachers as the white kids. INTERVIEWER: Okay. 6
Because they were sending the teachers who were not really good, or not really skilled, or they were mean, or that were evil, they would put them in the Black area and the Black kids were not getting a fair education. Be as it may, some of them did not take advantage of what they were getting, but, then they started fighting, so we are going to start busing kids, all over the neighborhood. And, she would get on the television interviews "my kids are not going, they're not busing our kids from south Boston", and south Boston was predominately Irish and they had some terrible, terrible, mean people over there, mean spirited, I'll say. So, she had kind of divided the whites and the Blacks. And, there came a big struggle. And Mel King was a Black activist and he was trying to, there was a beach over there called City Point and he went over to the beach, and that's were all the whites were, Irish people were, of South Boston. He went over and, on television, man, one had him by his head, one had him by his arm, by his neck, I thought they were going to pull him apart, and, because he told them he was not afraid. He was going to any beach he wanted to and the police had to come in and break it up and it got to be a mess. So, thinking that you had made a better choice, see, the problem is, when I tell you that, you can go anywhere you want to, you can do anything you want to do, but, if I get a job, I don't have down there, and it was proven later that they did have some kind of way, a code that they could tell whether it was Black or white, if they say, okay, so, I'm going to interview for this job for electronics. I'm a supervisor. I'm going to interview for this job. And I go over to the man, and I say, "I'm interviewing for this job." Now, he sees me, gives me a good interview, and he says "I'll get back to you." And, he'll never call you. Because you see, now here's the difference. I'm telling you that it's not segregated, but you see, if I look at your skin color and I say "You ain't getting this job", you're not going to get it. So, then what they started doing, they started hiring some Blacks and whites to go together, and the white would go in and ask for the job, I mean, the Black would go in and ask for the 7
INTERVIEWER: Wow! job, he would say, "I'm sorry, the job is filled." The white would come in and go and ask for the same job, now they're together but they don't know this, go in and ask for the same job, and they'd get the job. So, that's when they realized, hey, we have a problem here. People are saying that they're not segregating against Blacks, against Hispanics, against this, but they are. INTERVIEWER: So, this all happened in Boston? That happened in Boston! INTERVIEWER: Okay. And was it the same down here when you came back, was it the same, you said, supervisor in electronics, you tried to get that same job, was it the same, is it the same way now? See, I haven't been in the company. I don't know. But, I don't think it's as bad. Actually, it's, I think it's pretty good down here. I think now, judging, when I talk to people, of course it still goes on, because man's heart is his heart, it doesn't change all the time. And, the same thing with the housing. If they were renting a place out in the white area, and you were Black, and you went to get that apartment, they would tell you that apartment was already rented. A white person coming right behind you and go get the apartment. So, what they were doing was, they were segregating among themselves and they had some kind of code to let people know that this was a Black person so. And that's what was going on. So, when I came, now, when I cam back here, I have found, I'll be honest with you, and this is something maybe I shouldn't say it, the first time I ever was called a Nigger was in Boston. Never, never, in all those years in North Carolina, 24 years growing up, did anybody ever call me 8
a Nigger, white, never. The first time I ever got called a Nigger by a white person was in Boston. INTERVIEWER: So, I can go to when you were in school. How did that affect you, growing up in school, were you in segregated schools and then it became integrated... how did that... I never got to the integrated part. I left before it was integrated. But being segregated, it was very difficult, because down here the schools, that was one thing that really wore on my mind, because we used to have to walk to school, 3 miles to where the school was, while the whites rode on the buses, and, well, sometimes you would hear them say "Nigger", but they weren't down where they would be in your face, they weren't face to face. INTERVIEWER: So, that really sticks in your mind Well, that really stuck in my mind because I used to say why are the whites riding to school when we have to walk. And why do we have to go to a little school where they don't even supply us coal in the stove, we used to have to go out into the woods and pick up sticks and whatever to keep warm and that heater was sitting in the middle of the room and you only got warm on one side and the rest of you was cold, you know. And I went to a school where this lady, one teacher, had 7 grades in one, one big huge room. Can you imagine that? From one to seven. That's how I went to school, from one to the 7 th, to the 6 th grade, that's how I went to school. INTERVIEWER: Can you give us the name of the school, schools, that you attended? Well, I've basically forgotten my primary school, but I know it was in Whortonsville, I guess it was Whortonsville, primary school, I guess, and when I came, I went to Pamlico County, over here to the high school, q
in Grants... over at the other school, over here. It was Pamlico... what is it now, Pamlico Central? INTERVIEWER: It's Pamlico Middle School Pamlico Middle School. It was Pamlico Central, that's what it was. INTERVIEWER: It was Pamlico Central? Yes. It was Pamlico Central when I went. And, I went from the 7 grade to the 12 grade, and like I said, this lady had 6 grades of kids. Can you imagine a 1 st grade kid being in the same room with a 6 th grade kid? He would come by and thump you on the back of your head. And she had some of the other, the 6 th grade sometimes would be teaching the 1 st grade while she was doing other grades. She had 6 classes in one classroom. INTERVIEWER: How did this affect you? Well, it affected me and others, because you were not aggressive, if you were not a really fast learner, you would do a lot of daydreaming. Because, there was nothing else to do while she was teaching somebody else, while something else was going on and if you wasn't quiet, she, in those days, they could beat you, she would take a switch and tear you up. So you got to do a lot of daydreaming, looking at the wall, staring at the window, so it was frustrating, because I wasn't as aggressive as some of the other kids and it took a toll on me. And you miss out on a lot by not having somebody to tutor you, somebody there to, if you had questions, you could ask, because she was busy teaching somebody else. And, it was difficult, but thank God, we got through it. And thank God, my experience in Boston, I was with a great church, Ebeneezer Baptist Church in Boston. There were several pastors there in my tenure. I was there for forty some years. The last 3 or 4 years I was there I was actually interim pastor of this church. Because I was 10
working at a fulltime job and I don't know how I did it, but I was interim pastor because the pastor had left and the church was without a pastor and so, at that time, after the 3 rd of 4 th year, they finally got a pastor, and I was able to, and I decided, my wife and I decided that we would move on and come back home. So, I had a great time in Boston. I had a very informative, religious background. I had met a lot of nice people, lot of famous people, when I say famous, a lot of people who knew the Lord. Rev. Jones, who had a Doctorate Degree; Rev. Evernell also had a Doctorate's Degree; Rev. Taylor, he was there, he also had a Doctorate's Degree; Rev. Turman, he has a Master's Degree at the time, but he got his Doctorate's Degree later, he's out in Ohio. But, when I became minister, Rev. Jones, when he was there, Dr. Jones, there was nothing in that church that went on, that if, somebody else did it, he didn't allow me to do it. When he would go away, there were other ministers there, when he would go away, the Deacons would say "Well, who's going to take care of Communion?" Rev. Stokes. Well, who's going to do this?" Rev. Stokes. Huh? Rev. Stokes. So,finally,he got up in church one Sunday before church and said, "Look, I want you all to understand one thing. When I leave this church, and I know that Rev. Stokes is in this building, I don't worry about nothing because I know he's going to take care of it just like if I was here. I'm not afraid of him saying or doing anything that he shouldn't do. I have that confidence in him. So, when I go away, don't ask me anymore, who's going to do this, who's going to do that, as long as I'm here, Rev. Stokes will do it. INTERVIEWER: So, you were the foundation, the rock. Well, I wouldn't say that; lot of them said that; they call me that, tell me that now. We just didn't know what we were missing and I tell them, say, no... God has a place and time for everything. And, when you know your place and you know your time, and you listen to God, it's time for you to stay in your place or get out of your place 11
because, if you don't, God is going to hold you accountable. See, when you try to do God's job, you're in trouble. You let God do his job through you and everything will be all right. But most of us want to tell the Lord what to do, how to do it and how quick to do it. God don't work that way. He's not on my time, he's not on your time. He's got his own time and his program has already been planned long before you and I ever get there. And you're not going to change it. You're can't hurry him up and you can't slow him down. You might as well accept it and do the best you can. And, like I say, people say to me all the time, well, why, you act like you never worry. I say, well, I have my worries but they're inside. You won't know it because God is taking care of me. When I put my trust in God, why am I going to worry? Why should I sit up all night long and worry about this and worry about that? Can I change it? No. Well then, why am I going to worry about it? I give it to him and I go to bed and I go to sleep. I wake up the next morning, and he's already worked it out. INTERVIEWER: So you consider yourself very blessed I consider myself more than very blessed. INTERVIEWER: So, that's wonderful. I consider myself one of the most blessed persons you ever want to see because God has really, really, truly blessed me and my family, my wife. And, when I wake up in the morning, the first thing on my mind is I sing that old song, like I did this morning, with my mind stayed on Jesus. Because, I tell people all the time, young people haven't, some of them haven't gotten it, and I tell them that, I have a young lady call me from Boston and I said, look, you can't change, you can't make somebody accept the Lord. Your boyfriend or your husband, because he's not in God, in Christ right now, you can't make him accept him. All you keep doing is 12
INTERVIEWER: That's true. praying that God will change him. And you live to the best of your abilities because you're going to get so frustrated, that you're going to get out of the will of God. Because you're trying to make him do something that you can't make him do. So, if I can take care of everything myself, I don't need the Lord. INTERVIEWER: That's true. So, since I can't, thank you Jesus. To God be the glory. INTERVIEWER: Well, that is so wonderful, and in closing, I would like to ask you if there is anything that you would like to add, as words of wisdom or inspiration to young African American youth today, living in Pamlico County? To young, African Americans today, youth today, the greatest thing you can ever do, is accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and personal savior, because, if you have Jesus Christ, all things are possible. If you don't have Christ, oh yes, some things are possible, but you will never have the fulfillment, you will never have the joy, you will never have the peace that you desire if you are out of the will of God. But in the will of God, even when things go wrong, you can smile, you can lift up your heads, you can look to the hills from which cometh your help knowing that your help comes from on high. For the bible tells me that the earth is the Lord's, the fullness thereof, the world and they that dwell therein, for He has founded it upon the seas and established itfromthe flood. Who shall ascend into the hills of the Lord? He that has clean hands and a pure heart who has not lifted up his soul unto vanity nor sworn deceitfully. For this generation of them that seek thy face, o Jacob. Lift up your heads, oh ye gates, and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors, and the king of glory shall come in. Who is the king of glory? The Lord strong and mighty. 13
INTERVIEWER: Amen. The Lord mighty in battle. Lift up your heads, oh ye gates, and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors, and the king of glory shall come in. Who is the king of glory? The Lord of hosts. He is the king of glory. God is the king of this world. We think we are, but we're not. There is only king and that's Jesus Christ, son of the living God. He is the king. INTERVIEWER: Well, Reverend Stokes, your voice has really been empowering for this project. I'm very glad that I had a chance to interview you and I know this will very much touch someone. Well, I pray and hope so. My mother always said, if you can't help, stay out of the way. INTERVIEWER: I thank you very much. And this ends the interview. Let me just make one little quick.. my mother used to always say, I want young people to listen to this. You can lead a horse to water to college, but you can't make him drink. You can send a fool to college, and you can't make him think. INTERVIEWER: Thank you very much. And this now ends the interview. INTERVIEWER: This ends the interview. 14