Arthur C. Kaufmann and A ssociates, ]nc. November 13, 1975

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c iv ic experience you may have gained in that city?. Served. a s Executive Head of M cc reery 's in Pittsburgh for six years until I came to Philadelphia to head G im b els.

$ilar civ ic and cultural a c tiv itie s.. \. 2) When and why did you becom e the head of G im bel's Store in Philadelphia and what was the title of your p o sitio n h e re?$

1 Arthur C. Kaufmann and A ssociates, ]nc. 1) Had you not been an execu tiv e of a large department store in Pittsburgh prior to your coming to Philadelphia, and if s o, would you tell briefly of your professional position out there and what c iv ic experience you may have gained in that city?. Served. a s Executive Head of M cc reery 's in Pittsburgh for six years until I came to Philadelphia to head G im b els. In addition, my interests in Pittsburgh included the presidency of the Wood Street A ssociation (Pittsburgh1 quality thoroughfare); Vice President of the Pittsburgh M erchants A ssociation and sim ilar civ ic and cultural a c tiv itie s.. \. 2) When and why did you becom e the head of G im bel's Store in Philadelphia and what was the title of your p o sitio n h e re? * Joined G im bels, Philadelphia in May 1934 a s Executive Head, at which time I also becam e Vice President and D irector of the parent company, Gimbel Bros New York. In addition to the sto re, there was the Gimbel Bros. Bank and Trust Company of which I w as Chairman; a ls o. Chairman of the Board and a Director of the Pennsylvania Broadcasting Company, Radio Station WIP. Shortly ^thereafter, w as invited to becom e Chairman of all the G im bel/saks Foreign Buying O ffices all over the world and served in this capacity for many y e a rs.. * 3) How did you becom e acquainted with O skar Stonorov, and would you tell me what a c tiv itie s, if any, you had been involved in pursuing with Oskar prior to the Better Philadelphia Exhibition? It seems to me that I met O skar through one of the civ ic organizations here and a lso through my co u sin, Edgar J. Kaufmann of Pittsburgh, for whom ^ Frank Lloyd W right built that much publicized home, "Falling W a te rs." One of the early p rojects w hich we assig n ed to Oskar was the designing of a new, modern furniture department for G im bels. Eventually, Oskar and I also did the Frank Lloyd Wright Exhibition for the State Department which was, sent to Italy, after 3 0 0,0 0 0 persons viewed it here in Philadelphia.

development of the city planning process for the City of Philadelphia?

In addition, I a lso served as one of the founders of the Junior Achievement movement in Philadelphia since it seemed to me that if the City was going to get anywhere we had to find ways and means of

2 C. Kaufmann and Associates, Inc. Page 2 Were you not Chairman of the Awards Committee of the Junior Chamber of Commerce in the year that I received that honor as a recognition of my efforts to arouse public interest in the development of the city planning process for the City of Philadelphia? I was Chairman of the Awards Committee but cannot recall whether either of those years was the one when you received the Award. In addition, I a lso served as one of the founders of the Junior Achievement movement in Philadelphia since it seemed to me that if the City was going to get anywhere we had to find ways and means of interesting younger men in.-its future*-. What is your recollection as to the origin of the idea of a city planning exhibition to portray the post-w ar developments under study and in the process of planning by the City Planning Commission staffed by Robert B. M itchell and his associates and chaired by Edward Hopkinson, Jr.? It is not clear exactly how the Better Philadelphia Movement Exhibition originated but presumably it came about because a number of civic organization who shared my feeling as head of a large department store felt that Philadelphia required extraordinary efforts "to puli itself up by the boot straps. Among the men I remember discussing this with was Edward Hopkinson, Jr., who proved to be a tower of strength in ail of our activ ities. Do you recall that we incorporated the Better Philadelphia Exhibition and provided that half of the directors should be appointed by the Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce and the other half by the C itizen's Council on City Planning, A1 Halstrom therr being President of the Chamber of Commerce and I being President of the C itizen's Council on City Planning? Generally speaking, it seems to me this was the way the movement got underway, following which, I believe, I succeeded A1 Halstrom as President of the Chamber. more

establishm ents and employed a small staff, headed, I recall by a man named Prothrow? Y es, I remember Benjamin Rush, Jr.

The reason we did engage his services was - (as you may recall) Oscar was long on imagination and short on meeting dead lin es, so we made Mr.

3 Do you remember that Benjamin Rush, Jr. was persuaded by Edward Hopkinson to become Chairman of the Better Philadelphia Exhibition Corporation and with Ed Hopkinson behind him, set up an organization, raised funds from downtown business establishm ents and employed a small staff, headed, I recall by a man named Prothrow? Y es, I remember Benjamin Rush, Jr. was persuaded by Edward Hopkinson to become Chairman of the Better Philadelphia Exhibition Corporation. Until we had some money in hand, we did not hire Mr. Prothrow. The reason we did engage his services was - (as you may recall) Oscar was long on imagination and short on meeting dead lin es, so we made Mr. Prothrow the Administrator of the Project and held him responsible for management functions and getting things done on time. Am I correct in recalling that the program called for having the exhibition in the early fall of 1946, that it was im possible to get it ready that soon, and so the date was pushed back to the Spring of 1947? That target date also proved infeasible and the result was that the exhibition did occur in the Fall of 1947, at which time there was a municipal election for the office of Mayor and D istrict Attorney? ' i. ' * As to the chronology in connection with the Exhibition, the main reason we had to defer its opening was the fact that from time to time we ran out of money - and it was only by extraordinary efforts that we were able to eventually get the necessary funds to do the job the way we wanted to do it. As you recall we made available 5 5,0 0 0 square feet of space in Gimbels store and one of the things that concerned me was to make absolutely certain that we were going to have an exhibition of quality and with mass appeal. As I am sure you re c a ll, this project measured up to both these standards and we had something in ex cess of 400,000 visitors over a period of four w eeks.

Do you recall that Dick Dilworth, in his campaigning, charged that the Better Philadelphia Exhibition was a device for helping Bernard Samuel to get reelected as Mayor?

was being used as a tool for the reelection of Bernard Samuel to the office of Mayor? I do not recall either of these campaign charges on the part of Joe Clark or Dick Dilworth.

Did you know that Jim Skinner, who was then Chairman of the United Fund, took the position that the Citizen's Council on City Planning, through Joe Clark's actions, had drawn the C itizen's Council

4 Do you recall that Dick Dilworth, in his campaigning, charged that the Better Philadelphia Exhibition was a device for helping Bernard Samuel to get reelected as Mayor? Do you remember that Joe Clark, who was then my Vice Chairman of the Citizen's Council on City Planning and at the same time campaign manager for Dick Dilworth, charged publicly that the exhibition was being used as a tool for the reelection of Bernard Samuel to the office of Mayor? I do not recall either of these campaign charges on the part of Joe Clark or Dick Dilworth. However, anything is possible in the heat of an election. Did you know that Jim Skinner, who was then Chairman of the United Fund, took the position that the Citizen's Council on City Planning, through Joe Clark's actions, had drawn the C itizen's Council on City Planning into politics and proceeded to punish the Council by having it expelled from the United Fund? Did you know that when Skinner succeeded in having the Citizen's Council cut off from United Fund support, Ed Hopkinson became Chairman of a drive to obtain financial contributions from the Philadelphia establishment - - the banks, insurance companies, department stores, and other businesses thereby kept alive the Citizen's Council for another 15 years or more? , v I do not recall this action on the part of Jim Skinner, although I must say I had very high regard for Jim and his contribution to the city. more

Ly. Kauimcinn unu A s s o c ia te s, jnc.

sin ess leaders and governmental officials could have a sp ecial viewing of the Better Philadelphia Exhibition?

that envisaged by the Better Philadelphia Exhibition would be carried out in Philadelphia?

5 Ly. Kauimcinn unu A s s o c ia te s, jnc. rage 5 Is my impression correct that during the period of the Better Philadelphia Exhibition you had a special dinner attended by the Mayor, and as I reca ll, also the Governor, so that the top b u sin ess leaders and governmental officials could have a sp ecial viewing of the Better Philadelphia Exhibition? Was it not out of that gathering that the idea arose of a special committee being formed by the top downtown business brass of Philadelphia to make it their business to see that a program such as that envisaged by the Better Philadelphia Exhibition would be carried out in Philadelphia? Am I correct in thinking that Harry Carr, President, I believ e, of the First National Bank of Philadelphia (do I have the name of his bank correct?) took the position that it should be a very small group which would perform the function of spurring the rejuvenation of Philadelphia, and set up similar to that of the Allegheny Conference of Philadelphia? The facts are as follow s: In Pittsburgh, Dick Mellon had ju st returned from his service as second in command to General Hershey. W hile serving in Washington he uncovered the fact that there was $5 million of what was then referred to in Pittsburgh as 'dirty Roosevelt money" that was earmarked for Pittsburgh - but the Republican politicians would not accept it. Dick was incensed about this because he knew the city was deteroriating rapidly and called a meeting at the Duquesne Club and, in effect, told the heads of business and industry that unless they were willing to take this money and any other monies to get Pittsburgh moving, he was going to move out of town - which was typical of Pittsburgh's experience in those days. As a result of that meeting the Allegheny Conference was formed. That, in my judgment, really marked a giant step forward for the Pittsburgh area and a great achievement in city planning. Jim Duff, who was then Governor of the State, came from Pittsburgh and was very liberal to this organization in providing funds for road building and municipal improvements. One day I said to Jim (about the time he invited me to be Secretary of Commerce of the Sta te, which I declined owing to pressure of business) that I did not understand why the western end of the State got so much money and the eastern end (Philadelphia) so little. His characteristic reply was, - "When you fellows come together with the kind of long-range, intelligent plans that Pittsburgh h as, we will do the same for Philadelphia." With that thought in mind, I asked Dick Mellon whether he would send a group of his top executives to Philadelphia to explain the Pittsburgh plan. He agreed and we invited a cross section of 300/400 men to be our guests at the Barclay to hear the Pittsburgh story. Harry Carr was active in this program and was President of what was then the First National Bank of Philadelphia - later acquired by Pennsylvania Bank and Trust Company. more

13) Can you explain how it happened that instead of Carr's plan coming into fruition there was created, perhaps by other leaders, the Greater Philadelphia Movement?

Philadelphia Movement accomplish the achievem ents of the Allegheny Conference.

to second or third rate echelon. In other words, Didk wanted to be sure that the "movers and shakers" of the City interested them selves personally and financially in the growth of the area.

6 13) Can you explain how it happened that instead of Carr's plan coming into fruition there was created, perhaps by other leaders, the Greater Philadelphia Movement? The reason that this plan did not come into fruition in Philadelphia and resulted in the Greater Philadelphia Movement - from which I resigned as a director - was because in no way did the Greater Philadelphia Movement accomplish the achievem ents of the Allegheny Conference. One of the regulations which Dick Mellon laid down regarding the Alleghency Conference was that the leaders themselves had to participate and could not delegate attendance c[t m eetings, e tc. to second or third rate echelon. In other words, Didk wanted to be sure that the "movers and shakers" of the City interested them selves personally and financially in the growth of the area. Instead of Philadelphia copying this plan as we hoped they would, the Greater Philadelphia Movement became simply a replica of the Chamber of Commerce - and neither of them pulled any weight which is equally true today. 1 14) Did you not at about that time become President of the Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce, and if so, did you use your leadership in that position to further the improvements projected by the City Planning Commission and shown by the Better Philadelphia Exhibition? / I did become President of the Chamber of Commerce , which until then was operated somewhat like a Club and actually never had a retailer on its Board, let alone as President. Served as Chairman of the Board ; served as Chairman of the Board of the Civic Affairs Council, Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce during 1957, 58, 59 and 60, in which capacity we were able to initiate many of the improvements - which originated in the Better Philadelphia Exhibition.

the reorganization of city government could be achieved and the new developments started on their way?

booths and asked them to cast a ballot whether this was the kind of City in which they would like to live and, if so would they pay higher taxes in order to bring it about.

7 Arthur C. Kaufmann and Associates, Inc. Page 7 15) What programs portrayed by the Better Philadelphia Exhibition do you recall as being the first ones to receive implementation, and was it still another four years before the funding and the reorganization of city government could be achieved and the new developments started on their way? There was no immediate tangible result from the Better Philadelphia Exhibition except to stimulate the thinking of people and, if you recall, as visitors left the 'Exhibition H all, we had voting booths and asked them to cast a ballot whether this was the kind of City in which they would like to live and, if so would they pay higher taxes in order to bring it about. Much to the p oliticians' surprise they overwhelmingly voted "y es" which served to favorably influence the press and public opinion for many years to com e. 16) What do you consider to have been the most important improvements in the renaissance of downtown Philadelphia in the mid-20th century? We consider the most important step forward in the renaissance of downtown Philadelphia in the mid-20th century to have been that of making Available 18 acres of valuable ground in the heart of the city because finally the demolition of the "Chinese W all" and the old Broad Street Station,~was ~ Z l _ accompiishedt' As you will recall, both Mayors Clark~and~ Dilworth a sked me~to serve as Chairman of the Citizens Advisory Commission on the PennC enter Plan which was intended to satisfy the owners of the property, The Pennsylvania Railroad and, at the same time do the kind of job that would be good for the citizens of the area - with promenades, a concourse, etc. (1953 to 1956). In April 1957 received award from the Poor Richard Club of Philadelphia "as a friendly token of esteem " for service as Chairman of the Penn Center Citizens Advisory Commission. more

more Arthur C. Kaufmann and Associates, Inc.

Commerce pursue while you were the Chairman of it?

order to really be the voice of business which, unfortunately, does not exist today.

8 more Arthur C. Kaufmann and Associates, Inc. Page 8 17) Would you be good enough to put on this tape your recollections of the issues and programs which you had the Chamber of Commerce pursue while you were the Chairman of it? The issu es and programs which we followed at the Chamber, under our direction, were confined to those things which were necessary in order to really be the voice of business which, unfortunately, does not exist today. In addition, we endeavored to coordinate the efforts of a number of smaller civ ic groups, none of which had the muscle to really do the job as it should be done. We also endeavored to reconstruct the Chamber in order to bring in new, young blood and elim inate the club-like atmosphere which existed. 18) When did you cea se to be head of Gimbel Brothers and form your present organization? Perhaps you would care to say briefly what Arthur C. Kaufmann A ssociates d oes? I ceased to be head of Gimbels in February 1958 and in May of that year. formed our present organization which is best explained in the attached pamphlet. f

.Arthur C. Kaufmann and Associates, Inc. Page 9 19) When did you become involved with the Independence Hall Association?

I was part of the original group which became involved with Judge Lewis in endeavoring to create, out of what was then simply the LIBERTY BELL and INDEPENDENCE HALL into what is now known as

After Congressional approval, we then agreed to establish the Independence Hall Association in order to supplement the work of the Independence National Historical Park Advisory Commission - and this

9 .Arthur C. Kaufmann and Associates, Inc. Page 9 19) When did you become involved with the Independence Hall Association? As I recall the name of the organization which was formed, I believe, by Judge Lewis some thirty years or more ago? I was part of the original group which became involved with Judge Lewis in endeavoring to create, out of what was then simply the LIBERTY BELL and INDEPENDENCE HALL into what is now known as Independence National Historical Park and comprises some 20 acres. After Congressional approval, we then agreed to establish the Independence Hall Association in order to supplement the work of the Independence National Historical Park Advisory Commission - and this has worked out well, indeed. I succeeded Judge Lewis both as head of the Commission and of the A ssociation. What the Commission has accomplished in carrying out the Master Plan and having it in complete readiness for 1976, we consider a rather commendable achievement. The Independence Hall Association has Supplemented this by providing funds to rebuild the Thomas Jefferson House, establish the Promenade of the States and a number of similar endeavors of a public relations nature. 20) Would you tell me about the program and accomplishments of the Independence Hall A ssociation?.. v See answer to Question 19. / more

Arthur C. Kaufmann and Associates, Inc. Page 10 21) Are you satisfied with what the restoration and improvement programs which have been carried out by the National Park Service?

(To questions 21 and 22) Yes, we are satisfied with the programs that are being carried out by the National Park Services, even though we realize that there are some difficulties because of the

National Shrine. 23) Is there a plan of restoration or improvement of the area between the presently improved historic area and the Delaware River?

10 Arthur C. Kaufmann and Associates, Inc. Page 10 21) Are you satisfied with what the restoration and improvement programs which have been carried out by the National Park Service? 22) In your opinion, is the day-to-day operation of the historic sites satisfactory? (To questions 21 and 22) Yes, we are satisfied with the programs that are being carried out by the National Park Services, even though we realize that there are some difficulties because of the large crowds and groups who must be guided through the area, so as to leave with the thought that - although they had to wait - at least they had a meaningful visit to this - AMERICA'S greatest National Shrine. 23) Is there a plan of restoration or improvement of the area between the presently improved historic area and the Delaware River? There may be but we are not familiar with such a plan. ** 24) Are there other questions which I should have asked you topics on which you would care to comment? If so, please address yourself to them as you see fit. If you have any other questions either about the material we have given you or if there is any additional manner in which we can be helpful, please let us know.

InvestmentBankers A ssociation ofa merica

InvestmentBankers A ssociation ofa merica GOVERNC ORS )RS PRESIDENT GOVERNOI 3S DUDLEY F. BAKER DENVER JAY N.WHIPPLE DONALD 1.McLEOD TORONTO WILLIAM BAYNE BOSTON PAT G. MORRIS FREDERIC J.BLANCHETT SEATTLE