WHEN DID JAMES GUTHRIE DIE?

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Allan Banks
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HOT TOPIIC WHEN DID JAMES GUTHRIE DIE? Review the data to determine whether the son of Robert & Bridget (Dougherty) Guthrie Died in1763, 1792, or 1801. Was it 1763?

1 HOT TOPIIC WHEN DID JAMES GUTHRIE DIE? Review the data to determine whether the son of Robert & Bridget (Dougherty) Guthrie Died in1763, 1792, or Was it 1763? (So says former Pittsburgh Mayor, George Wilkins Guthrie ( ), a Branch E descendant of R&B s son John Guthrie.) Was it 1792? (So says author Laurence Rawlins Guthrie ( ), a Branch E descendant of R&B s son George Guthrie.) Was it 1801? (Listed in numerous unsourced online family trees linking Branch A s progenitor, James Guthrie (c ) as the son of R&B.) Join us at GUTHRIE GENEALOGY to discuss your opinion. Background: Robert & Bridget (Dougherty) Guthrie initially immigrated from Northern Ireland to Philadelphia, and soon moved to Lancaster County, part of which became Cumberland County in They were living in Carlisle, Cumberland, Pennsylvania as early as that 1750 date. Said to be born in Ireland c1739, their son James Guthrie came to America with his mother on a separate voyage from his father & older brother Robert. According to present estimations, Robert Sr was born c1700, Bridget c1711, and their children were born late 1730s-early1750s. Numerous Cumberland County documents have been attributed to this James Guthrie, but was it him or another James Guthrie? Even though legal cases were presented at Carlisle (County Seat), the individuals named might have come from another township. James Guthrie, son of R&B, is also credited as being the husband of a Margaret Brown. (See the next Hot Topic) and father of Robert D. Guthrie, of Carlisle.

2 George Wilkins Guthrie s Letter to his cousin Martha Guthrie Doughty {Source: Records of the Guthrie Family of Pennsylvania, Connecticut and Virginia, by Harriet Nancy Dunn, Eveline Guthrie Dunn, Google Books Online.} EXCERPT: Bridget Guthrie was born in Donegal, Cardonaugh County, in She married Robert Guthrie in Their first son, Robert was born in 1737; their second son, James in 1739; and a daughter Jane in 1741 (the daughter died when she was three years of age). Robert Guthrie, born perhaps 1700, even earlier, and his son Robert, came to America in 1744, and were followed by his wife and son, James, in (skipping some text) James Guthrie, the second son of Robert and Bridget, died in 1763; Robert, the father, died in 1782, and Bridget, the mother in This is only a small portion of the letter. George wrote that in 1872 his Uncle James sent his father, John B. Guthrie ( ), a paper written by his grandfather, John Guthrie ( ), listing the Guthrie ancestors. Unfortunately we don t have a copy of the original letter, just George quoting it, so he is a secondary source of the information. However, his letter is the closest thing we get to documentation on the Dates of Birth and Death of these key individuals. Robert Guthrie Sr: c Bridget Dougherty Guthrie: Marriage: 1736 Robert Guthrie Jr: born 1737 (listed as the first son) James Guthrie: born 1739 (listed as the second son), died in So, the letter that originated with John Guthrie, another son of Robert & Bridget, tells us that his brother James Guthrie died in If George quoted the letter accurately this conversation should be over. But did he? Read on.

3 Lawrence Rawlins Guthrie lists Cumberland County documents and a Theory {Source: American Guthrie and Allied Families, by Lawrence Rawlins Guthrie} LRG lists the family of Robert Guthrie of Carlise beginning on p.309 of his book. He quotes the letter written by George Wilkins Guthrie to his cousin. This includes all of the DOB listed above. James Guthrie, b. in Ireland, in On p.312, LRG diverges from the information in the letter and develops his own theory about James Guthrie: EXCERPT: James Guthrie, son of Robert Guthrie and Bridget Dougherty, is said by one account to have died in It would seem that this is an error, as a James Guthrie of East Pennsboro appears to have been the son of Robert. Among the Freemen taxables of this township, 1778, 1779, 1780, 1782, and 1785 was James Guthrie. Apparently it was this James who was a member of the Cumberland County Militia in 1779, though there were two other James Guthries, father and son, of Hamilton Township, one of whom may have been the party in question. Did this James Guthrie marry Margaret, a daughter of Robert Brown? Perhaps so. Did he live for a time in Chester County? This James Guthrie died in East Pennsboro in Was he the father of Robert D. Guthrie? As you can see, LRG asks as many questions about this James Guthrie as he seemingly provides answers. Does his theory about James Guthrie s death in 1792 actually refer to the son of Robert Guthrie & Bridget Dougherty, or is it another man with the same name?

4 A Sketch of Tennessee and Missouri Guthries, by Rev. Allen Washington Guthrie {SOURCE: Full transcription here at Guthrie Genealogy} Branch A s immigrant ancestor was James Guthrie who died in Orange County, NC in He is frequently linked in random online trees to Robert Guthrie & Bridget Dougherty. The Ancestral File, a user-submitted resource at the FHL, lists this man s DOB as Sound familiar? It s the same date listed by George Wilkins Guthrie quoting the original letter naming the family of Robert & Bridget. And this date has been copied over and over again in association with James Guthrie of Maryland & North Carolina who died in However This James Guthrie, from what I can tell, never set foot in Pennsylvania. His grandson, Rev. Allen Washington Guthrie, writes that James Guthrie migrated from the north of Ireland to America before the Revolution, (Revolutionary War) and settled near Baltimore. He was then probably 50 years of age and had a wife and several children, though he was not married until late in life. He also had several children born in Maryland, one of them, Robert Guthrie, my father, born on Nov 3, 1770, and an older son, James. These were the sons in the family. There were six or seven daughters whom I never saw, whose names I have often doubtless heard, and of the men they married. ( skipping along ) The family moved to No. Carolina shortly before the Revolutionary War or early in the war, and settled at Hillsboro. That at least was their trading point, and I have often heard my father talk about hearing the cannon all day long at Guildford Courthouse, in the battle between Cornwallis and Greene. He of course was then eleven years old. Rev AW Guthrie indicates that his grandfather was about 50 when he came from Ireland, and that his own father, Robert Guthrie, was born about that same time in That makes James Guthrie s estimated DOB about 1720, too old to be Bridget s son.

DNA EVIDENCE {SOURCE: The Guthrie Surname DNA Project, A Report by Ann Guthrie, Project Co-Admin.} Mid-October will bring us a key piece of genetic evidence.

5 DNA EVIDENCE {SOURCE: The Guthrie Surname DNA Project, A Report by Ann Guthrie, Project Co-Admin.} Mid-October will bring us a key piece of genetic evidence. A descendant of Lawrence Rawlins Guthrie, author of American Guthrie & Allied Families, is now a participant in the Guthrie DNA Project. LRG wrote that he believed his ancestor, George Guthrie, was a son of Robert and Bridget (Dougherty) Guthrie. The test will reveal whether this Guthrie line belongs to the MD/PA Group, or another of the established Guthrie Family Groups. Detailed analysis will reveal whether LRG s descendant also possesses the Pattern Marker that is also present in two current participants believed to be direct descendants of Robert and Bridget (Dougherty) Guthrie. [Branch E]. A Pattern Marker is a genetic variation (mutation) that is passed down from father to son, which can make it easier to identify specific branches within a larger genetic group. This same Pattern Marker is also found in all 3 Branch A participants. The presence of this marker in LRG s descendant would certainly indicate a close relationship between Robert & Bridget and Branch A s James (d.1801), but it would not prove a parentson connection. The reason it would not is that we find the same pattern in our only Branch H representative, a descendant of John Guthrie & Ann (Hill?). John was born in 1708, and so could not be R&B s son, which establishes that the Pattern Marker was handed down from an earlier generation, likely his father or grandfather. This means that Robert & John were either brothers, or close cousins. It also means that Branch A s James (d.1801) could be Robert s younger brother, nephew, or cousin. This is all a theory pending the results of the DNA test and further traditional research. So when did James Guthrie die: 1763, 1792, or 1801? Tell us your theory.

Re: John Hugh Kirkpatrick: He was a Revolutionary War Soldier His parents were William Kirkpatrick & Margaret Waugh He was born in Scotland

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