Articles and Sermons :: The Difference between the Old Man and the Flesh Zac Poonen

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1 The Difference between the Old Man and the Flesh Zac Poonen - posted by sermonindex (), on: 2013/8/16 17:30 The land of Canaan, in the book of Joshua, is not a picture of heaven (as some believers sing in their hymns) because t here are no giants to be killed in heaven! Canaan is actually a description of the Spirit-filled life of victory, where the gian ts of sin - the lusts in our flesh - are crucified. All the giants were not killed in a moment. They were killed one by one. The people of Israel had to go across two bits of water on their journey to Canaan. One was the Red Sea and the other was the River Jordan. Both these speak of death. We see in 1 Corinthians 10 that going into the Red Sea is a picture of water-baptism. The River Jordan is a picture of another kind of death. This was where John the Baptist baptised Jesus years later. The Bible teaches that our old self was crucified by God on the cross (Rom.6:6). We cannot crucify our old man. The old man (the mind that wants to sin) was crucified with Christ on the cross. It was God who did that. But there is something else that we have to crucify  our flesh (the storehouse of desires). Galatians 5:24 says,  Those who are Christ s ha ve crucified their flesh with its lusts and its affections.â The flesh is different from the old man. The flesh with its lusts is like a gang of robbers that tries to come into our heart to pollute us. The old man is like an unfaithful servant who lives inside our heart and opens the door every time these robb ers come to steal. Which of the two does God kill? He kills the servant. The gang of robbers is still hale and hearty. This is why we are all tempted in exactly the same way after we are converted as we were, before we were converted. That p roves that the robbers are still alive. They still want to enter our heart - even after we are converted. But something else has died within us - the servant who opened the door for these thieves (the old man). God killed him and put a new serv ant within us when we were born again  a servant who does not want to open the door for the thieves. When temptati on comes now to us, the new servant says,  No. Then how do believers fall into sin? Because they donâ t feed the n ew servant well! Then he is not strong enough to keep the door shut against the robbers. And the robbers push their wa y in. That s how a believer sins. But there is a vast difference between a believer sinning and an unbeliever sinning - because the believer doesnâ t want to sin and the unbeliever wants to sin. In fact thatâ s the test of whether you are really born again or not. The proof of bei ng born again is not whether you sin or not, but whether you want to sin. If you still want to sin, I would say you are not c onverted. When people come asking for water-baptism, I ask them one question,  Do you want to sin any more - even once?â I donâ t ask them,  Will you sin?â, because nobody can say they will not sin. It is the  want toâ that is the o ld man. These are the two deaths the New Testament speaks of. Both of these are pictured beautifully in the history of Israel. Th e army of Pharaoh was buried in one moment under the Red Sea. That s a picture of the old man. Who did that? God. The old man was crucified on the cross by God. Then the Israelites crossed Jordan, which speaks of another death. We accept our co-crucifixion with Christ to our lusts. Those who are Christ s take this attitude towards their lusts. The lusts are still there and the giants are still ruling the land. But Joshua and the Israelites had determined to kill them one by one. It is we who have to kill our lusts - one by one  as we are tempted. We must put to death the deeds of the body ours elves  by the power the Spirit gives us (Rom.8:13). This is very different from the Egyptian army being buried in a mo ment by God. Scripture is so exact when it comes to its application in the New Testament. If we open ourselves to the Holy Spirit, He will reveal these hidden things to us. The Bible is an exciting book. It s so perfect and exact in its Old Testament typolo gy of new covenant life. Those godly men in the Old Testament did not understand all this then, but we can understand what these events typified today. The land of Canaan symbolizes our body that has been ruled by the giants of many lus ts for many years. But we have taken an attitude towards those giants that says,  I am going to consider myself dead t o sin.â Jesus said we have to take up the cross every day. That s not killing the old man. The old man has already be en crucified. To take up the cross is to put our self-will (which is what the Bible calls our  fleshâ ) to death daily, in the power of the Spirit. If you take a relaxed attitude towards sin in your life, you can put on the old man once again (Eph.4:22). A person who  Page 1/7

2 continues to live according to the fleshâ will die spiritually  even if he was alive once (Romans 8:13, which is written to believers, is crystal clear on this). Re: The conquest of Canaan., on: 2013/8/17 3:47 Quote from Zac Poonan : "Canaan is actually a description of the Spirit-filled life of victory, where the giants of sin - the l usts in our flesh - are crucified. All the giants were not killed in a moment. They were killed one by one." No. Canaan signifies spiritual warfare for those who have crucified the lusts of the flesh in order for them to enter in, by t he baptism of the Spirit (Jordan), whereby they are able to withstand the enemy, the demonic powers who are covenant ed with and therefore procuring of the cursing of, the inhabitants of Canaan, which produces spiritual death. In order to destroy them out of the land, a conquest they could not achieve if they were forever battling sin within themse lves, those who are in a death covenant with Christ can 'keep all the commandments which I command thee this day, th at ye may be strong, and go in and possess the land'. There is no other way to have mastery, than implicit obedience, through not touching any thing forbidden by God. All sin is an abomination to God. In Joshua 7:4, the curse did come upon the camp, when the children of Israel took of the 'devoted thing' v and the y were unable to stand before their enemies because they shared in the curse. They lost the power and failed. No-one h as said that sin is never a possibilty. They had fallen and had to be restored by re-sanctification. This was not however, to be accepted as the normal state of affairs - sin, repent, sin repent. If a man does not want to sin, then why does he do it? Is the power of God unable to deliver him from all temptations? Is the power of God unable to keep him from falling? A man who is sanctified will meet many enemies in the land of Canaan who say that it is not possible to be delivered fro m sin in this life, being still bound and serving Satan because they do not know that any sin at all whether intentional or not still brings on the curse. The curse is only broken when they have been truly crucified with Christ and are entirely de voted to obedience to Him, and trusting that the power of the resurrection, is manifest in their lives 'now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness'. Re: - posted by Sree (), on: 2013/8/17 12:44 No. Canaan signifies spiritual warfare for those who have crucified the lusts of the flesh in order for them to enter in, by the baptism of the Spirit (Jorda n), whereby they are able to withstand the enemy, the demonic powers who are covenanted with and therefore procuring of the cursing of, the inhabita nts of Canaan, which produces spiritual death. Unscriptural assumption. James 1-14 clearly says how sin is conceived in us leading to Spiritual death. James 1-14:-each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by HIS OWN LUST. Then when lust has conceiv ed, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth DEATH. Our lust as pointed by the scripture is the major giant in spiritual warfare and not some external demonic powers. Satan i s powerless against believers in producing Spiritual death as Christ made him powerless on the cross (Hebrews 2). He c an only cause the physical death that too when God permits it to happen. Satan still has power over the entire world syst em, he attracts us by the world that is still under his control. But it is our lust for the things of the world hidden in our fles h that actually carries us away to be tempted. Page 2/7

3 For example, a man who is content with his wife whom God has given him will never find the need to lust against anothe r women no matter how provocatively she dresses. But another man who has discontentment in his heart will be tempte d to commit adultery against her. The external force (immorally dressed women) is same here but only the men are diffe rent. So it is our flesh that causes us to stumble. Crucifixion of flesh as pointed by Brother Zac Poonen is a daily activity and not just one time. We have to carry the cross every day like how Jesus pointed out. We need to deny our flesh and its lust everyday there by crucifying it. There is no one time crucifixion. Baptism of Holy Spirit will give us Power to do it. Everything that Brother Zac has written in this article is derived from scripture. Proving him wrong is like fighting against scripture. Sadly devil has blinded people to deny and fight against scripture. Re:, on: 2013/8/17 15:53 Sree wrote : "Our lust as pointed by the scripture is the major giant in spiritual warfare". A man does not have the strength for spiritual warfare if he is still fighting his flesh, but once the believer is truly in Christ by entering His rest, '(they) have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.' Gal 5:24. The flesh must remain under the knife as it were, through the power of God and the consent of the man to remain crucifi ed with Christ, but it is to be a done deed if we are to walk in the Spirit where 'ye shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh' Gal 5:16. Re: - posted by murrcolr (), on: 2013/8/18 4:48 Unscriptural assumption. James 1-14 clearly says how sin is conceived in us leading to Spiritual death. James 1-14:-each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by HIS OWN LUST. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth DEATH. Jesus was "tempted like as we are, yet without sin" Heb 4:15. In you your mind set then Jesus would have had lusts so mething evil within him so he could have been tempted just like we were then. Re: - posted by murrcolr (), on: 2013/8/18 5:37 Those who are Christ s take this attitude towards their lusts. The lusts are still there and the giants are still rulin g the land. But Joshua and the Israelites had determined to kill them one by one. It is we who have to kill our lusts - one by one  as we are tempted. Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. I have revisited this scripture after reading Zac s article have been thinking about it what to me is important is this word  haveâ. Those who are Christ  haveâ meaning believers have been crucified (past tense) with Christ. This means if you belong to Christ that the flesh with the affections and lusts are crucified as they were crucified with Christ on the cro ss 2000 years ago. The Giants have been slain, you say your temper persists, but God's answer is that you have been crucified. You say yo ur lusts remain very potent, but again God replies that your flesh has been crucified on the cross. Page 3/7

4 Re:, on: 2013/8/18 7:16 Colin wrote : "This means if you belong to Christ that the flesh with the affections and lusts are crucified as they were cru cified with Christ on the cross 2000 years ago." The old man is crucified but the flesh is crucified when we believe that it is not just our sinful nature that must go to the c ross, or in fact did 2,000 years ago, the part of us that Satan had control over when we fell into sin, or are born with as m any think, but the natural part of man's flesh with it's God given instincts. We are to have Christ on the throne alone, and be His willing slave. This means that we count it all loss what is considered important in life, like family and reputation, w hich will become idols if the flesh is not crucified. Re: - posted by murrcolr (), on: 2013/8/18 8:55 These are the two deaths the New Testament speaks of. Both of these are pictured beautifully in the history of Is rael. The army of Pharaoh was buried in one moment under the Red Sea. That s a picture of the old man. Who did that? God. The old man was crucified on the cross by God. Then the Israelites crossed Jordan, which speaks of another de ath. We accept our co-crucifixion with Christ to our lusts. Those who are Christ s take this attitude towards their lusts. T he lusts are still there and the giants are still ruling the land. But Joshua and the Israelites had determined to kill them on e by one. It is we who have to kill our lusts - one by one  as we are tempted. I agree with Zac that there is two deaths, however he weakens the meaning of second death and takes his eyes of what was accomplished on the cross, he does this by making us responsible for killing the lusts of the flesh. Colossians 2:11 says, "In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of t he body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ." Once we have entered into the Canaan land by the second death we do have reasonability and that is to keep ourselves dead. Zac weakens that death by stating that  we are the ones kill our lustsâ so what he is saying is that they are not dead!!! This defeats the purpose of a second deathâ It would have been better for him to say the flesh with itâ s lusts died when Jesus died on the cross but be make sure th at you mortify yourself and keep yourself dead. Re: - posted by Sree (), on: 2013/8/18 12:06 A man does not have the strength for spiritual warfare if he is still fighting his flesh, but once the believer is truly in Christ by entering His rest, '(they) h ave crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.' Gal 5:24. If you have to defend your earlier post which was proven unscriptural using the quote from James 1, you have to try givi ng an alternate definition or meaning of James 1. Or at least say that you do not believe James is right like how you talk about 1 John 3:3. There is no logic in trying to quote Gal 5:16 saying that we should crucify flesh. The flesh must remain under the knife as it were, through the power of God and the consent of the man to remain crucified with Christ, but it is to be a done deed IF we are to walk in the Spirit where 'ye shall not fulfil the lusts of the flesh' Gal 5:16. If Galatians 5:24 talks about one time crucifixion then what is this IF condition that we need to walk in Spirit? There is no condition for a completed event. It is like saying you are born If you eat everyday. This sentence makes no sense similar to your post. Page 4/7

5 This means the crucifixion of Flesh is an everyday task that can happen only when we walk with the spirit, which is also a everyday task. This is like saying you will live as long as you breath. This makes sense. This is what I have stated in m y post. Carrying the Cross and Crucifixion of Flesh is an everyday task. Just like how living life is an everyday tasks. Re: - posted by Sree (), on: 2013/8/18 12:25 Jesus was "tempted like as we are, yet without sin" Heb 4:15. In you your mind set then Jesus would have had lusts something evil within him so he c ould have been tempted just like we were then. I cannot answer. It is better to say 'I cannot answer' rather than posting illogical arguments and twisting scriptures to suit ones theology. Bible says that Jesus came in likeness of our sinful flesh (Rom 8:3). We do not see clearly the difference between our fle sh and that of Jesus explained anywhere in the Bible. If anyone knows the difference then they can clearly answer your question. Any other answer that you get will only be based on ones assumptions. I see that there is some difference but at the same time I accept Hebrews 4:15. I do not hold any theology so I do not need to run from these scriptures or twist them to give any explanation for my theology. But the Bible clearly says that Jesus had a will that was different from that of his Father (John 6:38). He had a flesh that was weak and tempting him from taking the cup that father wants to give him (Matthew 26-41). Jesus was clearly Baptiz ed by the Holy Spirit, if he had these temptations inside him and he himself had to carry the cross daily, how foolish will we be if we believe that we do not need to do the same. Re: - posted by Sree (), on: 2013/8/18 12:44 Once we have entered into the Canaan land by the second death we do have reasonability and that is to KEEP ourselves dead. Zac weakens that dea th by stating that  we are the ones kill our lustsâ so what he is saying is that they are not dead!!! This defeats the purpose of a second deathâ To me it appears that you only lack logic. A dead man does need to keep himself dead. If he needs to keep himself dead then it means he is not dead but acting like dead. If the lusts are already dead then they are not there period. There is n o need to keep it dead. It means that the giants are not there in Canaan at all. There is no need to fear. There is no temp tation in our spiritual life at all. But it is not true. Bible clearly says that there is no temptation that is not faced by other br others (1Cor 10:13). The second death will deliver the giants (Lusts) to our hands by empowering you. Just like how God delivered the Giants in Canaan to the hands of Israel. But only 2 men believed in this truth and marched forward. It would have been better for him to say the flesh with itâ s lusts died when Jesus died on the cross but be make sure that you mortify yourself and kee p yourself dead. He will not say that because this is unscriptural. Only a man who wants to be blind to scriptures and give importance onl y to theology will say this,i think YOU know that man very well!!! James 1-14, clearly states that our lusts are tempting u s. If the lust is already crucified then why is James saying this? Which means lusts are not crucified. We have to crucify i Page 5/7

6 t everyday. God gives us power to do it. Re:, on: 2013/8/18 13:14 Sree wrote : "Unscriptural assumption. James 1-14 clearly says how sin is conceived in us leading to Spiritual death. James 1-14:-each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by HIS OWN LUST. Then when lust has conceiv ed, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth DEATH. Our lust as pointed by the scripture is the major giant in spiritual warfare and not some external demonic powers. Satan i s powerless against believers in producing Spiritual death as Christ made him powerless on the cross (Hebrews 2). He c an only cause the physical death that too when God permits it to happen. Satan still has power over the entire world syst em, he attracts us by the world that is still under his control. But it is our lust for the things of the world hidden in our fles h that actually carries us away to be tempted." Sorry, I did realise later that I had not answered you properly. Indeed it is our own lust that entices us but Satan knows our weaknesses and will bring forth temptations. He is powerle ss only with those who have crucified the flesh as they no longer sin, but not with those who are trying to do that in their own power - gradual sanctification. With those, he deceives them to think that they are already in Christ. Sin causes spiri tual death or separation between God and us, no matter what we know of the scriptures or have a belief in the existence of Christ or have even come to Him for forgiveness. Christ makes us holy but only if we have turned completely from sin. If we believe that we cannot be free from it, then it retains its power. James is describing the process that leads to sin in those whose flesh is not crucified. They are tempted but have proble ms resisting. They think that so long as the act is not committed then they have not sinned but Jesus said that any thoug ht which is against the commandments is sin. "If Galatians 5:24 talks about one time crucifixion then what is this IF condition that we need to walk in Spirit? There is n o condition for a completed event. It is like saying you are born If you eat everyday. This sentence makes no sense simil ar to your post. This means the crucifixion of Flesh is an everyday task that can happen only when we walk with the spirit, which is also a everyday task. This is like saying you will live as long as you breath. This makes sense. This is what I have stated in m y post. Carrying the Cross and Crucifixion of Flesh is an everyday task. Just like how living life is an everyday tasks." Crucifixion of the flesh is a moment by moment continuation of a past event on the cross, not by our own strength but by the Spirit. We always have the choice whether to walk according to the Spirit or revert to flesh, but unless we have actua lly been delivered from the power of sin through Spirit baptism, we will find ourselves falling many times a day and thinki ng that it is by our will that we must crucify the flesh. This is not Biblical Christianity. Sanctification is by faith. It is not always easy to explain how entire sanctification works. Apparent paradoxes and inconsistencies are the result of man using his mind instead of having spiritual revelation. Re: - posted by murrcolr (), on: 2013/8/18 13:29 If Galatians 5:24 talks about one time crucifixion then what is this IF condition that we need to walk in Spirit? That s the point I was pondering this afternoon  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit Gal 5:24-25 And those who are Christ s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. The flesh with its passions and desires have been crucified 2000 years ago, we must see it and believe what God says i n the scripture. Something Zac forgot to mention in his article is that the second death is also the Baptism of the Holy Sp irit. Once we believe Gal5:24 it by faith the Holy Spirit comes and crucifies the flesh with its passions and desires, but we m ust not only abide in the Spirit, we must also be led by the Spirit. So there is an ongoing walk in the Spirit. Every single moment of every single day we carry the cross in our life so that we remain in the Spirit and led by the Spirit. However it Page 6/7

7 would be wrong to say a Zac says  we must kill our lustsâ scripture says  but if by the Spirit you put to death the dee ds of the body, you will liveâ Rom 8:13 From personnel experience and being set free from different things I did play a part but that part and that was believing what God had said and looking to him for deliverance. Scripture says  For in the gospel a righteousness from God is re vealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith" Roms 1:17 we must never forget that. With that said we canâ t kill our lusts, if we could we wouldnâ t need the Holy Spirit, but we need the Holy Spirit as the S pirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. However we do have responsibilities take these exhortations "Work o ut your own salvation," "Keep yourselves in the love of God," "Building up yourselves," but these are to be done by faith f rom the first to the last. Page 7/7