R.39 Legacy of William Friday Interview R-0645 Billy Ray Hall 29 June 2010 Transcript 2

Transcription

1 R.39 Legacy of William Friday Interview R-0645 Billy Ray Hall 29 June 2010 Transcript 2 Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection,

2 Interviewee: Billy Ray Hall, President, NC Rural Economic Development Center, Inc. Interviewer: Joseph Mosnier, Ph.D. Interview date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 Location: NC Rural Center (conference room off front lobby), Raleigh, NC Length: 1 disc, approximately 53 minutes Joe Mosnier: This is Tuesday, June 29, My name is Joe Mosnier of the Southern Oral History Program at UNC-Chapel Hill. I m in Raleigh, North Carolina, at the offices of the North Carolina Rural Economic Development Center with Mr. Billy Ray Hall, the founding executive director. And we are here to conduct an oral history that will touch largely on Mr. Hall s perspective on Bill Friday s work and influence, probably picking up the story about And I say that because in that year, on the 30 th of May 1991, Mr. Hall gave a quite extensive interview to Bill Link in our collection, in the Oral History Program Collection, which touched on many of these same themes. So, we are, twenty years later almost, going to pick up the conversation. Good to see you, Mr. Hall. Billy Ray Hall: Good to be here. JM: Nice to have you with us, and thank you for your willingness to sit down. BRH: Oh, you know I m looking forward to talking about one of my favorite people. JM: Yeah. You mentioned before we came on the tape that you might open with just some comments setting the perspective, reaching back to 91. Bill Friday then was your Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 2 Collection,

3 BRH: Bill Friday was the founding chairman of our board, and he was the one that chatted with the legislative leadership, then-lieutenant Governor Bob Jordan and Governor Jim Martin, about the creation of the Rural Center. And the thing that just crystallized it was his creating this center was part of his style was to find an appropriate vehicle for addressing a critical issue in North Carolina and then to put his own energy into it, which he did. I think a lot of people, including myself, are extremely surprised when a man as busy as Mr. Friday was gave us time every month as chair of our board, gave me personal time in addition to that every month to sort of move this institution along. And I think what happens, with myself and lots of my friends who have been the beneficiaries of Mr. Friday s leadership and commitment, has been the wonderful learning experience you go through with him while you are doing something really good for this state. And that, up through 91, our last interview, I m sure I was pretty much excited about a new institution that we had created and my trying to get it moving. And we pick it up from there. He continued to serve as chairman of our board for a while and then left the chairman s seat, but his heart s been with us ever since then. We ve done several interviews, and invariably when we get to critical decision points or thought points, you go for a person who has the perspective of Mr. Friday to bring to that decision or to that action. And that s been just a wonderful thing over these additional nineteen years. JM: Um-hmm, yeah. BRH: [Coughs] I think everybody out there knows that we re a unique institution in the sense of being focused strictly on rural North Carolina, strictly on looking at people who are in need, starting with the farm community and people in poverty. And it s Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 3 Collection,

4 unique in the nation. In fact, with Mr. Friday s efforts, we became a unique state in the way in which we were doing this work. It s drawn in lots of other states to take a look at what we re doing. They always invariably want to re-create or create one of us in their state. I always tell them, Good luck, that if they do everything right but don t have a Mr. Friday, it won t happen. And they invariably call me back and say, We didn t have a Mr. Friday, and we don t have a rural center in our state. And so, it s just reinforcing to be fortunate enough to be in the state with him providing leadership in lots of areas and, in my unique case, rural North Carolina. It was just really triply fortunate for me, but more importantly for rural North Carolina, that he was engaged. JM: Um-hmm. In effect, Mr. Friday has had to exert his influence through I guess you might say moral influence, right? I mean, a certain kind of I don t know what term you would choose, but it s not as if he is the head of a giant pot of private money or something over the years. BRH: No. JM: So, what adds up to suggest this type of influence? For example, you mentioned Bob Jordan and Jim Martin. BRH: I think the bottom line is the respect that everybody in the state has for Mr. Friday, the respect because of his life s work, his passion, his sincerity and his integrity. You put those things together and bring it to the table whenever you re dealing with an issue. His sense of what needs to be done or what s right for North Carolina conveys a message to everybody that s listening. Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 4 Collection,

5 And then, whenever he puts his energy into doing something, it s not that he is bringing wealth; it s that he s bringing, like you said, maybe moral and if people are worried about the word moral, he brings what s right to the discussion. And you don t argue that point with him. And I think the fact that people look to him for leadership says that if a governor or legislative leadership or business leadership is wondering, Is this a good thing to do, if Mr. Friday is sitting at the lead of it, that question is answered. The question is: How do we engage, and what is the proper role for our engagement in his work? And that happened to be the case with us as we were being created. And I think back to 91, I was probably talking about the astounding fact that we came out of the shoot as a new institution, no background, no place in the mix of North Carolina government, politics, development, economic development, and within a year, we had put together two what are perceived as national demonstration efforts. And that would not have happened without his leadership and his personal engagement. I don t know if I told the story about being in Charlotte. We went over to get him at Chapel Hill. He got out of a dentist s chair to get in the vehicle to go with us to Charlotte to meet with the heads of the state banking system: Mr. [Hugh] McColl, Mr. [Vincent] Lowe with BB&T, Mr. [John F.] McNair with Wachovia, and others, and the head of the State Banking Association, along with the state treasurer. And we sat to talk about creating a venture capital corporation for rural North Carolina. And it took about forty minutes, max, from the opening of the meeting and the pleasantries to the an agreement was made, and we proceeded to create the North Carolina Enterprise Corporation. Everybody knows it was a major success. Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 5 Collection,

6 Similarly, we convened a meeting with the head of Public Instruction and the Community College System, talked about the need for a TechPrep program in North Carolina, the fact that we were doing it as a demonstration in south central North Carolina. Shortly after the meeting, we were moving with the program. A year later, we had states taking notice of what we were doing. Two years later, we had forty-some states visit the project in North Carolina. A year after that, it was in national legislation. Every high school in America has a TechPrep curriculum now. But that didn t happen because I was a great staff person. I think I m a pretty good staff person, but not a great staff person. It didn t happen because a particular leader was already championing an idea. It happened because he knew how to pull leadership together and exert sort of moral suasion on the right thing to do. And so, you learn from that process the value of collaboration, the value of the integrity of your work and letting it speak for itself, the value of understanding the people in the room, and valuing developing an idea so that everybody has ownership. And he taught us that well. JM: Um-hmm. Can you think, just by way of contrast, can you think of an instance where Mr. Friday had an issue he cared very much about, and he just couldn t manage to persuade some important person or persons to come along, and why, against a record of such extraordinary success, maybe in this instance he didn t prevail? BRH: The only thing and, of course, my experience with Mr. Friday would be limited to those places I was typically involved, occasionally [a second area 8:55]. And I think everybody knows that he s very disappointed that North Carolina didn t do more with the Progress Board. The Progress Board he put a lot of energy into. He was particularly concerned that we have some group in the state that was concerned about the Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 6 Collection,

7 long-term wellbeing of this state that was more objective in putting together numbers and measures of performance and setting goals. And I think, if you re sitting and talking with him, it s one of the things that personally, sitting with him, that he really wished would have been a stronger and a more active and a more institutionalized role. And I think, in this case, the politics of the day were so strong and the variety of issues so big that we were fighting with that you couldn t bring them to the next stage. And I think he would say that, as hard as he worked, there were so many players in it, in the decision, that you just couldn t make it happen at that time. I think had we had a different set of events controlling the activities, we may have seen a different result. But the sitting governor, the budget crisis, the University issues, the history of the work of the Progress Board, all combined to say, This mountain is too high to climb at this time, with these people helping on the mountain climb. JM: Um-hmm. Take me back to the years in the early 90s Mr. Friday is your board chair and will stay in that role some years longer and how he helped move you well into the progress of the Center. You re now I think by 91 you had been five years from concept to activity, so about three years of actual work, I believe, yeah, by 91. BRH: Yeah, three years. I think the thing that Mr. Friday did was work with our board of directors to sort of shape how our institution would [change 11:05] and be open to how to improve the institution, what made the better route for us to go in his mind and with the board s input. People like Valeria Lee, Reverend Sidney Locks, Bill Gibson, who is a great friend from out west, and others sat at that board of directors with him and contemplated what we would become as we grew up as an institution. Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 7 Collection,

8 And some of us, like myself, being the primary advocate, thought we should always be a very small group, very aggressive advocacy type organization, very small. His sense was that we needed to be a catalyst or an action agent in improving rural North Carolina. That view led him to think or to work with the board to think of: What do we do when we see something that needs to be done, we try it out and it looks like it s the right thing to do, and we re trying to position it in other places? I was a strong advocate for moving it to other places. Ultimately, he led us to do it [through 12:10] some things ourselves. And so, in the early days, when we thought it was a great idea to spin off the Enterprise Corporation and we did, and it became a for-profit entity sitting outside of the public and private groups, we came back and we were doing a leadership-training program for rural folks that is not available in any other way. He and the board voted over my vote for us to become a program administrator for the leadership program. Shortly after that, we were dealing with a state that had mixed views about how to address minority economic development. And we came up with some ideas to improve the minority communities and we became an administering agent for that. And so, we turned into a much different institution with that board s leadership, with him exerting the direct leadership, and I think all for the better. I think if you re asking people around the state, Did the Rural Center become what it should have become? Looking back, I think everybody would say, Yes, and I think most people would have said, Not very likely to have happened but for the sort of leadership and the active engagement. I know at one point we were over at the General Assembly having some pretty intense debates, and one of the senators said, Well, Mr. Friday is sort of out to pasture, Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 8 Collection,

9 and this thing is really not needed for the state of North Carolina. Mr. Friday showed up, very clear to everybody he was not out to pasture, very clear from the vote of almost unanimity against this one person s views. We added some responsibilities and went in the direction that he was advocating and became perhaps an even stronger institution, partly because the people did not perceive him as truly engaged, and whenever they realized he was truly engaged, it just quadrupled the energy around delivery kind of interesting dynamic, watching it unfold. But, to conclude, I think we became a catalyst organization and a delivery organization along with an advocacy organization for rural North Carolina. And no matter who you talk to, I think the thing that he sought for and that we attempted to put in place was that North Carolina s [conscious/conscience 14:38] would be about urban and rural North Carolina, that when public policy leaders or foundation people were gathered, or business leaders were gathered, and they talked about North Carolina, the conversation has to be about all of North Carolina. And I think that was his goal and I feel pretty sure that if you walk around the halls of the legislature or the business community anywhere now and talk about North Carolina, in their mind, you ve got to talk about urban and you ve got to talk about rural and how we re all going to work together. And that s a legacy that he leaves via our institution. JM: Um-hmm. He stayed on your board do you remember until what year approximately? BRH: About 94, I believe. JM: About 94. A board member after he left the chair s seat, or no? Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 9 Collection,

10 BRH: He s chairman emeritus, and so he engages with us, and we bring him in and out, but not a daily participation. JM: Yeah. Obviously, the Center has flourished, and 94 was a good long while ago now, and the record is BRH: Phenomenal. JM: Evident as we look around this building and your staff and etcetera, all the programming that you do. Just by point of reference, I remember from the 91 interview, I think at that time you had ten fulltime employees, of whom only four were programming, program people. BRH: Yeah. JM: And today the number must be approximately BRH: Only sixty. JM: But still, I mean, remarkable, just really quite remarkable. BRH: The only is sort of in jest. We are a very big nonprofit. And if you look at organizationally, we re probably the largest of our type of organization. We get a continuation budget of in the twenty-three, twenty-four million dollars. On any given year, we ll be doing initiatives for the General Assembly and the business community and others, and that budget can go up to a hundred and forty million dollars of new money in a given year, based on the initiatives that we re doing. And that s all based on the integrity of the organization and the challenges we face. I [tend to 16:31] think back to the biggest surprise for a lot of us is that we have been the focal point for the concern over rural areas lack of quality water and water and sewer systems, and the combination of that during the recession eras, during this decade Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 10 Collection,

11 we re in, the tough times economically, we ve been involved in job creation. And so, in one session, the General Assembly appropriated nearly a hundred and fifty million dollars to us to go out and do water and sewer and job creation in rural areas, support job creation. And that was just astounding. Fortunately, by all accounts, we did a very good job with the money. And so, we continue to work in those areas. JM: Um-hmm, yeah. Obviously, the frequency of your visits with Mr. Friday changed, I imagine, after 94 as he shifted into a new role. BRH: Sure. JM: To the limit that you have perspective that you can offer, I d be real interested in your sense of Mr. Friday s work on some other principle themes. BRH: Sure. JM: And you may know more or less on any one of them, but let me just start with, broadly, your perspective on his work through 99 at the Kenan Trust. BRH: With the Kenan Trust, I would see him as I was coming over to visit, and obviously he was engaged in, still, some of the issues that he had passion about, literacy being the big one that always intertwined in our discussions with other things we were doing. The work he was doing nationally in that effort would come through. You re there to talk about an issue you ve got and you want his wisdom on and perhaps his support or encouragement. And he s obviously got this wide range of issues that he s plowing his energy into, and you would pick that up. But I think everybody saw the Kenan Trust as another avenue to engage his leadership in some areas, as well as working with the foundation on their agenda. And I think everybody saw it as a natural role for him to be in a position, not only to continue to Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 11 Collection,

12 look for things that were right to do, but in this case have some potential impact on the investments that that foundation made. Now, of course, he, like me and others, always worked with the leadership, whatever the leadership group was. And he worked with the foundation, and the perception was that it was a remarkably good relationship between him and the Kenans and the work that they were doing. JM: Yeah. How about the emergence of Golden LEAF? BRH: Golden LEAF, I think, may be more his imprint than very few people would realize. The discussions were emerging on the settlement, Master [Tobacco] Settlement. What will states do with this money, because it looks like the settlement is going to go through? Our General Assembly is working on it. Our leadership in our General Assembly is saying it looks like a major source of resource to address the followup to the tobacco industry s impact in the country. What should we as a state do, because each state is going to get to make its own decision? [Coughs] Mr. Friday and Mr. [Tom] Lambeth joined to testify before the committees on what to do. And somewhere in that movement of activities, the emergence of an idea of a Golden LEAF Foundation, coupled with a Health Wellness Trust Fund and a Tobacco Trust Fund I think you could see clearly Mr. Friday on the idea of a foundation, the idea of looking long term, of making sure that this resource would affect those people who had provided for the resource and been affected by the resource, in addition to the overall health that s affected by tobacco. And I think what you saw in there was his leadership said to folks, This is the right thing to do to create this foundation. A lot of people were going, Whoa, no. We could plow this into certain budget areas. We can appropriate it every year better than some foundation can. But I think his Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 12 Collection,

13 argument in the end won, that it needed to be a long-term organization who was about infusing the politics of the day, if you will, by virtue of appointments, but also infusing a look at the economy of this state and where it s going over time and being able to make long-term investments. And that was Bill Friday. That was his modus operandi, to have that eye towards the long term, a good framework of things that need to be done, and a series of actions to impact those needed activities. And whenever the Golden LEAF began to emerge, soonto-become Governor [Mike] Easley was the AG negotiating. Had his full support; the governor of the state, Jim Hunt, full support; legislative leadership, full support. And so, voila! You emerge a Golden LEAF Foundation. Well, this great idea is Bill Friday s. Who are you going to ask to run it, or to be the chairman of the board? Bill Friday. And so, Mr. Friday and I and some others went on the original board and started the Golden LEAF off. And I think if you interview folks around the country now, a lot of people have differing views on their handling of the money. Everybody thinks that North Carolina s model is the best model. And it s been interesting to listen. I m on the Golden LEAF board now. I was on with him when we started, stayed on a few years, came off, have gone back on now by gubernatorial appointment. Talking to the staff, they had visitors this week coming in from Kentucky, looking at their model, saying, Gah, I wish we had done that with our money in Kentucky. And so, that s not atypical. And so, I think what you do at the end of the day is just feel good about that decision by the state, that organization s birthing by him. The momentum that he left Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 13 Collection,

14 with it has carried it through incredible attacks budget-wise to get ahold of that money in tough budget years. But I think the rightness of the idea shines through. JM: Um-hmm. We ll come back to some other organizations and groups, but you ve just mentioned in connection with Golden LEAF a couple of names, and I want to stop and visit on them a little bit. You mentioned Tom Lambeth, obviously, Valeria Lee. Let s talk about Tom a little bit. That ll bring in ZSR [Z. Smith Reynolds Foundation] probably. BRH: Sure. JM: Just broadly, your perspective on the relationship between Mr. Friday and Mr. Lambeth? BRH: I think it s of two great statesmen who know each other do great things, who are very careful to exercise their leadership in partnership. I think they both respect and I think both of them would be mad with me for this if they heard me say it, but both of them know what a great leader they are. They know the role they play in this state. They know that if one of them is working on something, the other one supports it, but they don t necessarily have to both plow energy. And to me that says that a wonderful statement that they re both such major players in this state that, as their passion moves into an area, they re able at times to work together, like on the University system. They re more likely at times to be pulling huge carts that are supported by each other. And what I would say is that you won t run into two people who are more respected. I think maybe Tom looks a little more political because of his aggressive engagement in politics sometimes. But even so, I think that you see two people whose series of what s right, things that should be, and how they spend their lives to affect the Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 14 Collection,

15 should-bes are so much alike it made them brothers in spirit. And their role in the state has been together, partners, collaborative and mutually complementary. I don t think North Carolina would be what it is had one been in the other s behind the other. [Beside 24:39] each other in affecting this state is what I would describe as sort of their role. And we are fortunate that both of them were there and fortunate that they were mutually supportive in collaborating over time. JM: Um-hmm. Anybody else who comes into that kind of? BRH: Big mix? JM: Small circle? BRH: Well, I think if you say in that small circle, people who have been at it, you have to put Jim Hunt, by virtue of being involved for the last forty years at the head of this state. Certainly some of the other leaders in the state are close to that level, but not that I m close enough to to have a strong opinion of. I m very close to Jim Hunt, very close to Mr. Friday, and very close to Tom Lambeth and Valeria Lee and some other folks, but fortunate to have been at the right hand of those gentlemen in their leadership roles. When you understand and learn a Jim Hunt in the midst of being called to run the state s response to major hurricanes in the state, and the support that you got from Bill Friday and Tom Lambeth at the same time, said you re working with the three acknowledged statesmen of our time. And what it does for a person like me is just humble the heck out of you. Somebody would say, Well, you probably didn t like doing that work. Now, the answer was, The work was hard because you had to work seven days a week, in terms of some of the work we did. The other side of it is: what better place could you Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 15 Collection,

16 spend your life than to be involved with three people who were going to do the right thing, and your opportunity was to try to get the right thing in their box? And so, I m sure there are other people in that mode, if you were to go talk to the Stuart Bondurants and the other great state leaders who affected our state. But, in my case, I just happened to stick with those three, who represent the pinnacle, for me, of players. JM: Um-hmm, sure. Tell me are there interesting things to say about the relationship of the Center and ZSR over the years, back in those early years maybe? BRH: Well, like I said earlier, when you think about Mr. Friday being more or less a partner of a Tom Lambeth, a state leader which waxed eloquently connected-wise to the leadership of the Z. Smith Reynolds, you see them join him in initiatives. And the one I d say is the Rural Center. There is only one foundation that s been our partner. It s our founding foundation support partner, Z. Smith Reynolds. For twenty-three years, we ve been here, and for twenty-three years, they ve been our partners. They ve gone through two more directors, are in their third director since Tom, and life is really good. We get along well, we do thought processes together as working groups, we collaborate on initiatives to spur for the state, and all of that comes out of a philosophy that positioned us in their mind at what role we play for the state. And so, if Z. Smith Reynolds is bringing a thinking group together, we are at the table. If the Public School Forum or groups like that are bringing people together, we re that group that Bill Friday s spirit is in, and it s his rural spirit. And so, if you re going to do something and you re going to do it about North Carolina if you re going to go do urban poverty, you probably don t call us. If you re going to go do major international Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 16 Collection,

17 airports, you don t call us. But if you re going to talk about North Carolina, and you re not going to get Mr. Friday because of time or whatever, and if you re going to get that side of him that s rural, you ve got to have us come into the room. And Tom Lambeth made sure of that when he became our chairman; it was that same imprint. And so, for the very, very few and I don t know who they would be that might not think of us as rural à la Bill Friday, then they ll think of us as rural à la Tom Lambeth, because he did the finishing of the touches, if you will. JM: Right. Let me ask you about a couple of other institutions, and whether or not you have much perspective on these, I m not sure, but you can share if you do. BRH: Sure. JM: Obviously, Mr. Friday was involved over the years with that very, very interesting institution in Greensboro, the Center for Creative Leadership. BRH: Well, if you re like me and you become involved with Mr. Friday, lo and behold, you get to go to the Center for Creative Leadership for some training. [Laughs] JM: I think you went in 96, 95 or 96 or something like that? BRG: Yeah, I did their training program. But more importantly, when we were developing our Rural Leadership Program, it was his leadership that got their folks to be involved with us in the design of our program and engaging their staff, freebie, for a nonprofit. And so, we became, more or less, partners with the Center for Creative Leadership in developing one of our legs of our institution. [Certainly, he 29:43] was about it and its role and the value of leadership, and it bleeds through as he looks at the Center for Creative Leadership in its international role. Our piece of it in North Carolina, for rural North Carolina, he made sure was done, too, Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 17 Collection,

18 in that case. And I think you don t have to travel anywhere in North America that people don t talk about the Center for Creative Leadership and its value to the country, in terms of leadership development. And it doesn t matter what group you re in, if you re in a group of educators, if you re in a group of government officials or others, they come up as having a valid role, developing ideas, working with groups. And so, I would say he did what he did with us and others everybody knows the importance of leadership. What people soon come to learn is the value of affecting leadership, improving it, giving it more skills, teaching leaders to appreciate themselves. That got welded into the Center for Creative Leadership. And so, now when you think leadership, you think Center for Creative Leadership. If you think rural North Carolina, you think Rural Center. And so, he did that effectively. JM: [Sneezes] Yeah. Tell me your perspective on why Bill Friday never ran for political office. BRH: I think probably in the late night, in his gut, the decision was: What s most important for me to do right now? And my sense is that something always won out over that. I think if you ask leaders in North Carolina, everybody will tell you they know a story of people going to Mr. Friday and talking to him about running for some office. They always know a story about how seriously he thought the value of leadership in politics was. They ll always tell you how he wrestled with the decision at whatever level. And then they ll tell you that he came back and felt good about his decision to do whatever he decided. And so, from a distance, it looked to me like he was always the guy or the man or the person that they wanted, he was always recognized as a leader who Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 18 Collection,

19 should, from their perspective, be a leader in politics, and he was always the person in the end, what he thought was right for North Carolina outweighed that decision. JM: Um-hmm. Are there this, in some senses, may reach back to a theme I raised earlier. I m always so fascinated, looking at his history, how someone who is advocating on behalf of a set of values, which have real fiscal implications BRH: Oh, yeah! JM: Which redirect a lot of money away, frankly, from centers of power and authority towards places in the state that have not traditionally had so much power and authority exactly how he manages to be so persuasive with the state s corporate and business leadership, given North Carolina s specific history of fairly industry-friendly politics and policy. BRH: Um-hmm. I think you ve raised a question, in a way, that answers itself. You premise it with: He s always concerned about what s right, caring about how we address the development of this state, the people of this state, the people who are in need, and the fact that we are a society that has to care for itself. When he brings that to the table, even if you re sitting there and you re the hardheadedest businessperson in the world and you re not interested at all in having an office in eastern North Carolina, there s something about it being right that he gets into your mind. And when you get up from the table, you go, You know, I wasn t doing that to raise my bottom line. Somehow I did it because it was the right thing to do. And it must be his fault that it came about, because I ve watched him in legislative groups making his case, and it was the right thing to do. I ve watched him sit around a business leaders table, and sort of intense discussion. You ve got to hear a Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 19 Collection,

20 Mr. McColl say [into a group 34:02], Why should I put my money in my bank why should I put some money into a program that s going to help them people in rural North Carolina? And you ve got to hear Mr. Friday stand up and say, Because they re North Carolinians, because they deserve to be developing as a people, and because your bank is a good corporate citizen in this state. And suddenly, you see a Mr. McColl say, I m in. And the debate is over. The other thing I think Mr. Friday did, and to a certain degree others in his period: understood the value of how you make decisions. And you make decisions based on what s right, but just as importantly based on the case that you make. How accurate is the case? Now, I don t know if it s his legal background, business background, or what, but I think in the end all of us became very aware, who were associated with him, that when you went in to see him, you had to have your numbers. You had to have the case built so that it held. Because if it didn t, and you were asking him to lead, you were going to go back and do some more work. So, you had a choice: You could get your case documented, accurate, ready to defend, easy for him to take into his philosophy and move with, or you could lose. Now, I ve lost several times. And I had to go back to the drawing board, rework an idea, do more research to get more information, interview more people to get more views, then come back to the table and learn that I was wrong in the early analysis sometimes and we just drop it, or learn that a better case made for a better policy, which in turn made him in a better position to move it, and then he would move it. JM: Um-hmm. Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 20 Collection,

21 BRH: Everything that people that work for Bill Friday do don t you ever wonder about whether or not there s an accountability factor in there and some hard numbers being associated with whatever you re doing. JM: Um-hmm. Let me take you back for a moment. You mentioned his concern for literacy. Do you have any special memories or perspective to offer about his relationship and the mentoring with Sharon Darling and the National Center for Family Literacy launch? BRH: Only just how much he was focused on making sure that the Kenan Foundation, that people he knew were seeing the program, and that she was being brought into the policy-level arena and leadership arena. Lots of people like Sharon and others, and including me to a lesser degree, are not as comfortable in the policy arena as you are delivering your product and working with children and the families and that type of thing. And what he did is to provide that sort of cocoon that you could get into with him and move into that table and become more and more comfortable. And I think a part of that, which I think is important, some people may not Mr. Friday is the same person everywhere. The demeanor is at ease. It s not rustic as much as it s just genuine. It s, We re all equal here. And what it does is it permeates you. If you re nervous about going into a legislative group or a business leadership group or a foundation board, or if you ve been poor all your life and you re walking into a room with a bunch of millionaires, the first thing in the back of your mind in every case is, I just I don t know what to do. I don t know how to fit in with this group. And what you do is you walked in, and this guy who acted the same way at the hamburger stand Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 21 Collection,

22 acted the same way in that room, and suddenly you were able to participate. And he opened that door or provided that framework for you to move in. Sharon benefited from that. I benefited from that. Other folks did. And I think what you saw is him playing that role, making sure that resources were moved, making sure the case was made, with her. That s what I saw. JM: Um-hmm, yeah. Tell me a little bit more about the long-term relationship with Jim Hunt, the two of those persons. BRH: Well, if you go back to the early 70s, when Jim Hunt was running for lieutenant governor, I think Mr. Friday would have been a person helping to shape his thinking about the state. He would have been a person Mr. Friday and the governor would have been in contact, talking about things to be done. When Jim Hunt went to Nepal, I would venture a guess Mr. Friday was involved with that. Don t know for sure, but if you asked me what I guess, I d say he definitely would have been the type of person positioning Jim Hunt to a state leadership and a national leadership role. He would have seen the value of that. He would have been encouraging it. When Jim Hunt became lieutenant governor, he was a critical advisor to the governor, worked with him directly on putting the budget together, not only for the University system but the state. As Jim Hunt developed his State Goals and Policy Board, got to be elected governor, choosing issues, Mr. Friday was, if not a mentor, like a mentor. [Coughs] And that s the role you see him playing with lead folks all the time. If you re in a room now and seeing Mr. Friday and Mr. Hunt, you know right off that relationship is something that s special, and it s I don t know if it s father-son, but it s definitely mentor-mentee and it s definitely ultimate respect for each other. Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 22 Collection,

23 JM: Um-hmm. Any thoughts in relation to Mr. Friday s relationship with folks who are really leaders of the very modern North Carolina economy I m thinking people like Jim Goodnight; maybe Wendell Murphy from the Ag sector, in a way; Dennis Gillings, biotech and pharmaceutical services; those kinds of things, folks who really are defining leadership in the newest and very vibrant parts of North Carolina s economy in the last fifteen or twenty years? BRH: I think for some of the people you ve got Mr. Friday in a direct role. When you mention a Wendell Murphy or the people in the pharmaceutical industry, by virtue of where he [40:17] and been involved with folks, that direct relationship is there. And so, whether or not we realize it, I think we re getting some of the mentoring and some of the philosophy from him in those events. [40:31] I won t be able to tick off the specific names, but people will invariably say they have spoken to Mr. Friday, they have been to meet with Mr. Friday. Whether it s a Bill Johnson, who now is the new Sherwood Smith, or whether it s Norris Tolson out at the Biotech Center, whatever the list is, somewhere in there and you re talking to them about issues or the state as a whole, they ve been to the mountain, so to speak, and they ve spoken with Mr. Friday, or they ve talked with him by phone, and that s with even the new scions of business or Zions of business, whatever we call them, the Kelly Kings of the state and others. You can believe there s a direct relationship to a Bill Friday. It may not be as extensive as some of the other folks who talk to him daily and who were involved with him regularly, like a John McNair or someone. But as far as I would be very surprised if you see anyone in a leadership position who is exhibiting more than a totally narrowed- Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 23 Collection,

24 down industry I m running this research lab, and we just produced this product but if they have any view of North Carolina, in that view is Bill Friday. JM: Um-hmm. BRH: It s like saying, Do you remove your conscience? You don t. And the fact that he s still a part of our lives on a regular basis on TV, it s like you re reminded your conscience is still functioning. You know? And I would say that carries to most everybody. JM: Um-hmm. You had mentioned, and I don t know if you meant to be specific or just use a generic kind of placeholder name when you mentioned you chose Hugh McColl s name for an example about how a person, a major business leader, could be persuaded. I don t know if you meant to be literal. BRH: I was being literal, and it was an exact meeting and it was on a Thursday night in Charlotte when it happened. JM: How about that? So, let me draw you out just a little bit more on that. Hugh McColl obviously was a really emerged as, even among the cluster of very prominent banking leaders in North Carolina, a singular figure, really, ultimately, given what happened with B of A and all. BRH: Absolutely. JM: Thoughts on the relationship between those two men? BRH: About as close as you could imagine between two men that are at the top of the leadership game. I have a sense that a lot of what s gone on in Chapel Hill in the name of Hugh McColl was planted by Bill Friday. I have a sense that a lot of what s Hugh McColl s version and vision got shaped by Bill Friday. And I ve got a sense that a Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 24 Collection,

25 lot of partnerships occurred between those two gentlemen that nobody knows about, whether it was to affect a particular decision on one side of the ledger or the other. I liken it to our event: the thirty-second, forty-second answer, the decision to move on a major initiative, and it s done. I have that sense that that occurred a lot. Now, did it? You d have to ask Mr. McColl, or ask Mr. Friday. But being around the two gentlemen, hearing them talk and it s interesting. You could almost tell when Mr. Friday had been around someone by the things they talked about. And whenever Mr. McColl would drift off, it was where he grew up, what kind of people they were. And you knew right then that was the Bill Friday-sort-of-sentiment, not labeling it, because everybody has different features, but you just sort of sensed that somewhere in there, it was [cooking on him 44:01]. The value of a higher education system and what it does for a state, and the importance of the business community being engaged, you have a sense happened somewhere around a table, or somewhere with those guys with a cup of coffee or a drink or whatever, having a discussion. That s my sense. JM: Um-hmm. You just mentioned Higher Ed. I d be interested in your perspective on Mr. Friday s relationship with the folks who have succeeded him in the role as system president [C.D.] Spangler, Molly Broad, Erskine Bowles. BRH: From where I m sitting, and you know it s a limited observation, my sense is always the revisit with him, knowing that he s there but actively not over-exerting his view into their lives, but there as a, I m here. I m not gone. I have the history and I can give you wise counsel without getting in your way. Mr. Spangler was on our board, by his presidency of the University system. Their engagement was, I think, around major issues and counsel, and I would have seen Mr. Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 25 Collection,

26 Friday sort of in a consigliore role to Mr. Spangler. To Ms. Broad, I think the relationship there was obviously, again, as wise counsel. I don t know how much she went to him, as compared to Spangler or Erskine Bowles. In Erskine s case, I know Erskine quite well. I would say if he doesn t see Bill Friday as a mentor, he sees him as pretty durn close to a mentor. Before Erskine actually moved towards the job, it was based on a long conversation with Bill Friday on the basis of, Should I do it, I with a capital I, given the University system and given who I am? And you had a sense that, if Mr. Friday didn t bless him, he certainly did something that made him the right person for everybody. And my guess is the relationship over these years has been one of again, very close to a mentor relationship, a counselor role. And I would say Erskine Bowles is not being anything but a hundred percent honest when he talks about the respect and the value and the friendship he has with Mr. Friday that affects his work now. JM: Um-hmm. Let me pause for just one sec here. BRH: Sure. [Recording stops for a brief pause at 46:44 and then resumes] JM: We are back on after a very brief break. We re going to finish with a few themes, additional subjects to discuss. And I know, Mr. Hall, you had mentioned that you were very struck by the intensity and passion that Mr. Friday brought to the question of ethics and college athletics. BRH: Just amazing. I think you re always surprised at the range of things that had Mr. Friday s attention. In this particular case, he really focused personal energy, he hurt when bad things were happening, he really wanted us to have a set of ethical Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 26 Collection,

27 behavior and programs where college athletics were an integral part of our society, but also a clean and respected part. And it almost was like personal pain whenever things did not go well in that arena, and I ve come to appreciate what that does to support for education and support for systems. And I think his view is broad enough that not only the personal pain that is involved, the college athletics that were involved, the University impact that was involved you just put all those together and you could feel that in the man. JM: Um-hmm. You ve just mentioned the issue of the range of focus. And I know that it is quite an exceptional thing when you think about the set of issues that he s been deeply engaged with, and I wonder about your perspective on how it is that he manages that level of intense engagement with so many different questions. BRH: It s a combination, and I alluded to it earlier. You re always amazed when you re sitting and talking with him about what he knows about farmers, what he knows about the Waterfowl Museum on the coast, and it s like he s so studious of North Carolina and so focused when he goes into an area that he absorbs that area. And he s passionate about such a range of issues that he s so deep. We talk a lot about leaders who are very broad in their perspective, and they re usually only an inch or two deep in a lot of areas and really deep in some areas. Mr. Friday is feet-deep, several feet deep, in all the areas. Now, when we talk about farming here at the Rural Center, I think I m concerned about the forty-six thousand to fifty thousand farmers in North Carolina. I think I m concerned about the small farmers that are losing their farms. But he s the one that brings it up and puts it into the conversation and flavors your thinking about it. It s that Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 27 Collection,

28 ability to go in and go deep that s part of, I guess, the mind-power of the man, as well as the passion. But what you find out pretty quick is earlier I mentioned that you had to have a case to make with him when you re talking about an area, that mind of his goes digging deeper and deeper and deeper, and he wants to know how many thousand farms there are, how many raise tobacco, how many do this. And I gather he does that in each area and then, amazingly, he keeps it all. There are no loose connections in that brain, and it s always first about getting you to feed into the brain and then use that information. And so, you watch, as he does interviews or is meeting with someone, his questions are almost as important as his answers because his questions are going to be part of the answer later on. And you ve got to believe he s listening better than the average Joe, or the superaverage Joe. [Laughs] JM: Um-hmm. Maybe we can conclude with some perspective from you about, and you ve touched on this earlier in some sense, but how his personal manner is a part of all of what he gets done and accomplished and the way he establishes and frames relationships with other people of all sorts. BRH: Yeah. I think the first thing that people say about Mr. Friday is he s a genuine person, down to earth, and he s always the same person. If he walks into a room with a very sophisticated group of folks, he is very comfortable but he s the same person. If he goes into a room with working folks or down at the community kitchen that he worked in, he fits right in. And I think that s part of who he is, is that maybe the philosophy that we re all equal he actually lives. Interview number R-0645 from the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical 28 Collection,