A Record of Audiences & Correspondence with HH Shantananda Saraswati All Rights Reserved. Sunday 8 October

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1 A Record of Audiences & Correspondence with All Rights Reserved. Sunday 8 October R.A. (To H.H.) Last Wednesday the Guru referred to the search for spirituality through the medium of action and the medium of renunciation. Could he say more about the medium of action? H.H. As I said before, there are two different ways of approaching the liberation of mankind from human form. One is through activity towards Liberation, and the other is by renunciation complete renunciation of the worldly life, and withdrawing oneself into such corners where one is not obliged to attend to any activity of the world. Of course he will take to the activities related to Liberation, but not related to the world. There are certain examples of this: Rama, Vasishtha, and Janaka. Note. Rama was the incarnation of God who was the hero of the great Hindu epic the Ramayana. King Janaka you have heard of through the stories His Holiness tells about him. Vasishtha we know little about, but the following words of Sri Ramakrishna refer to him: Ramakrishna: He who has knowledge has ignorance also. How amazing! said Lakshman to Rama, even a sage like Vasishtha was stricken with grief because of the death of his sons! My brother, replied Rama, he who has knowledge has ignorance also. Therefore go beyond both knowledge and ignorance. These three examples are exponents of this philosophy of liberation through activity. They were householders who were very famous men. One of the main facets of worldly anxiety is the fear and pressure attached to birth and death. By themselves they have nothing to do with any sort of bondage it s only when one takes them very seriously and treats them as real, then the bondage starts and the trouble appears. A man of activity would learn to discern what the Reality behind the appearance is and, although he would act in the appearance, he would always hold on to the Reality and thus avoid the conflict of pleasure and displeasure which seem to appear through birth and death. For example, one knows, and everyone knows that one is a human being, and this human being, neither in his awake state, nor in his dream state, or sleep state or any other state would ever think that he was not a man he would never think himself a beast of any sort. In the same way, if one knew precisely and decisively that one is the Atman or the Absolute, then there is no reason to by-pass any worldly activities; one can sail through them by the virtue of reason, discernment* and act as the situation demands and hold no Samskar for it. *[dis and cerno = I sift = insight.] It is the birthright of human beings to walk on the earth but it is not necessary that they must also swim in the water, but they can learn to swim, and if they have learnt to swim they can walk or swim, whatever the circumstances may be; they will be able to do their job or cross the land or river whenever it is necessary. It is in exactly the same way that the human being can learn to swim through the world into the liberated land and act whenever the action is needed from him. This is the householder s way. R. Handed the following to interpreter Dixit for translation and submission to His Holiness: Mathematics and Physics in the West have become so complicated that they bear little relation to the practical life of the householder. But recently we have had one or two University professors in those subjects doing the Meditation with benefit. It would be useful if we could prove to them that ancient wisdom ( for example about the Laws of Three and Seven) could solve their problems more simply. You will, of course, know the following story with which we could perhaps begin, if our version is accurate: There lived long ago, in the country of King Dharmasana an old Brahmin who had three sons, and who possessed nothing in the world but 19 cows. Before he died he called his sons and said: My sons, I am in the 576

2 All Rights Reserved. A Record of Audiences & Correspondence with mouth of death, so listen attentively. All I have to give you are these 19 cows; divide them among you in this way: Let the eldest take half of them; the next a quarter and the youngest a fifth share of them. But should there be any remainder left over, you must all three eat it; if not, all the cows are to be given to the King, and my curse will rest upon you. And saying this, that old Brahmin died. When, after performing the rites of burial, they came together to divide the property, the eldest brother said: Half of these cows, that is nine cows and a half, are mine. The next brother said: One quarter, that is four cows and three-fourths of a cow are mine ; and the youngest said: the remaining fifth that is three cows and four-fifths of a cow are mine. The eldest then remarked: But the sum of all these, added together, amounts only to eighteen cows and a fraction of a cow. But how is it possible for Brahmins to eat the flesh of a cow; or how are we to take various pieces of a cow and leave it still alive? But unless we share in due measure, all the cows must go to the King, and our father s curse will fall on us. Why did our father place us in so terrible a dilemma? After debating day and night, they at last put their problem to a Holy man. After a moment s thought he replied, Let the brothers borrow another cow. Then of the 20 cows, let the eldest take half or 10 cows: the next a quarter or 5 cows; and the youngest a fifth or 4 cows. Then let them return the borrowed cow. Thus the 19 cows will be divided according to the father s instructions, with no remainder. Each brother will receive more than by their own division and finally the King will be pleased. For he is a just King and what would displease Him more than that, anywhere in his kingdom, Brahmins should kill and eat cows, let alone chop them up, and at the same time, disregard their father s dying instructions? Note by R.: I used to think only that this story was a key to the Laws of Nature, for Nature always prefers whole numbers to fractions.* But lately I perceive another meaning also that whenever we put any problem, however complex, to the Param-Atman or to his representative, the fully Realised man, the answer comes back in so new and simple a form, that one gasps: Why couldn t I have thought of that? *For instance, in the whole of quantum theory and Niels Bohr s model of the atom. His Holiness s reply: The mathematicians and the physicists should understand that in the Laws of Nature there are no oddities anywhere. There is, on the other hand, an evenness throughout. That is why they are so amenable to reason, and ultimately they all fit into one another so simply and beautifully. Ancient wisdom does help to solve problems easily. It is all contained in ancient Granthas (books). But by simply reading them nobody can solve the problems as the Granthas contain Granthis (knots) which can only be undone by experienced Gurus. For example, if arsenic is prescribed for the treatment of a particular disease, it takes a medical man to say in what form and in what dosage the arsenic is to be given. These Granthis or knots are sometimes introduced purposefully: A rich man built a temple. On the Vijay Dashma day and at 4 o clock in the evening, he buried four pots full of gold coins just where the shadow of the temple s pinnacle fell on the ground. He left a note, in his Will, for his sons stating that he had buried four pot-fulls of gold coins at 4 o clock on the Vijay- Dashma day at the pinnacle of the temple. They may take it out if and when they run into financial difficulties. Eventually the sons did run into financial difficulties. They broke the pinnacle and found nothing. Then they dug out the whole temple in search of the pots, still getting nothing. As they were in trouble for want of money they talked to everyone about it. One day a Mahatma passed that way and he also 577

3 A Record of Audiences & Correspondence with All Rights Reserved. heard their problem. After inspecting the site carefully he asked them to rebuild the temple just as it was. This was easily done as all the material of the old temple was lying there. Then he asked them to call him again on the Vijay-Dashma day, and they did so. He saw where the shadow of the temple s pinnacle fell at 4 o clock on that day, and asked the sons to dig there. The pots were found after digging down only a few feet. Regarding the story of the Brahmin and his sons, it has a psychological meaning also. The five organs of action, plus the five organs of sense, plus the five Pranas, together with Manas, Buddhi, Chitta and Ahankara make 19, and they constitute the body of the sons which the Brahmin had left. These were the 19 cows. The 20th cow, which was borrowed and which facilitates the division, was Wisdom and did not form part of the body. Naturally it was left out as it only facilitated the division and it did not actually enter it. Further comment by R.: This illuminating answer confirms the idea of Wisdom as a catalyst, which makes a chemical reaction possible, but is not used up itself in the process the borrowed cow. It also illustrates the method of the Calculus which uses infinitesimals in the process of differentiation and then, by integration, removes them and reinserts the constant. Questions to Dandi Swami R.A. (to D.S.) You told us that the past and future is already printed on the cinema reel. Are the meetings that I have had with His Holiness and now with you, and whatever may follow from these meetings also already recorded on the reel of my life, or is it possible that such an occurrence as these meetings may change my part in the drama? D.S. However much I may tell you that everything is predestined, or already recorded on the reel, you won t admit it because ego is there. Therefore, in spite of realizing that everything is predestined, everything is being directed by God Himself, your ego won t admit it, and will go on as if it is the doer. A story illustrates it: On the mast of a ship a bird was sitting quietly while the ship left the port and was going out to sea. The bird was confident that it could fly the distance back and reach its own place. After a long time with the ship far out to sea, it was evening, and the bird was thinking that its children would be crying for it at home, and it made an attempt to fly home across the ocean. But it could not find the shore, so thought it must have mistaken the direction and returned to the mast for a rest. When it was rested it set off again in another direction, but the same thing happened it could not find the shore because the distance was too great. It was not within the power of the bird to reach the shore. It went to the South, to the North, to the East and West, but in the end it realized there was nothing it could do, so it returned to the mast and once more sat quietly. Now it was confident again, but in another way not that I can do, but I must go where the mast of the ship is taking me. So long as you are in the individual plane ego plane and not on the cosmic plane, you will be thinking that you can do it yourself. 578

4 All Rights Reserved. A Record of Audiences & Correspondence with Now, in every religion, in every Scripture, there are instructions to do this thing, do that thing, worship in this way. In this way you should correct yourself, do these pious actions, etc. What is the purpose of them? You will try to do it, and after many efforts you will become confident that you cannot do it. If I cannot get His help, then I cannot do anything. We find our life itself is in another person s hands. Until your individual ego is satisfied by various actions that it has no power, it won t rest. When you are fully convinced that you are not the power, you are simply the instrument. So, all these religious instructions are just to exhaust the ego; then ego will be sitting on the mast and the stage of Thy will be done will be reached, the Cosmic Mind will be reached. You cannot say, to-morrow I will do this with my hand it may be paralysed to-morrow; you cannot say, to-morrow I will see so and so your eye may be blinded; you have no control over any part of your body. So it is ignorance to think you can change it; you cannot change it. R.A. But if liberation is already recorded, what incentive is there for me, now, to say try and get away from Tamas guna? D.S. Just as you cannot create the cloud, or make it rain, but by the signs in the sky you can tell others, or be convinced yourself that it is going to rain, so there are signs for you on how to play your rôle. When you become the student of that, then only knowledge is necessary for your actions. In the ego plane we are in ignorance, but if with knowledge we can do the actions, then they do not harm us. Since you have got the desire to hear His Holiness, that means they are signs that you are being attracted towards liberation. You cannot do it yourself, but these are signs. We could have a meeting in London, but thousands of Londoners would not come to hear, they would not want to hear and discuss these spiritual things. It is a grace sign drawing you towards Him. If you don t want to hear, it means he wants you to play the worldly rôle. That is why in the Vedas it says: Thus those whom He will like to attract towards Himself, He will have them do good actions, and those He would like to play the rôle in worldly affairs from death to birth and from birth to death, He will have their work done in worldly way. Until He attracts you, you cannot proceed towards Him. But we have aspiration, and that is the significance of prayers. Through prayer, our minds become more and more purified to his Will, and then His reel is more and more reflected. In the ego mind we can change nothing, because we are just like puppets. (Prayers God give me good actions God let me do this, or do that). Nature is doing it, everything is being done by nature. R.A. But we can aspire ourselves? Is that in our own control? D.S. Everyone aspires even the devil. 579

5 A Record of Audiences & Correspondence with All Rights Reserved. R.A. Do I have the option of saying my prayers, or not saying my prayers? D.S. God is our own house. Our own Self is pure Consciousness. You do not require permission, or a licence to go back to your own house. We are always aspiring to go back to our own house because we want peace or happiness. No-one aspires for sorrow. Even a thief is aspiring that through the benefits of what he steals he will get peace and happiness. R.A. On that diagram which is Atman and which is Param-Atman? D.S. Param-Atman has two faces, just as the cinema screen has two faces one side shows the film, the other side is white; in both faces the screen is untouched by the cinema show. Param-Atman with the Gunas with Maya, becomes Ishwara, the Creator, the Sustainer and Dissolver at the point marked Cosmic-Atman on the diagram. Our home is Param-Atman; we have taken to things superimposed on the Self or Jiva-Atman which do not belong to us I am father, I am mother ; these are just superimposed, but the Self is there throughout. We have created limitations for ourselves by our own imaginations we have superimposed all these things. Cosmic Atman is less limited. In our home we have perennial existence Sat; infinite Knowledge is infinite power Chit. Knowledge is power. For instance: Take the small boy leading the elephant: it is not his physical strength which is leading the enormous elephant, it is his knowledge. Wherever there is knowledge, there is power. He knows how to conduct the elephant, therefore the elephant is controlled by him. Perennial existence is called omnipresence; Infinite knowledge is called omniscience. We are always aspiring for perennial existence because that is our home we want not to die. Most of our aims like storing money, etc. are directed towards the wish to be immortal; it is inherent in us not to want to die. Even a child asserts his own knowledge when you try to show him something; he says, No, it should be this way. This is because he is a storehouse of infinite knowledge, and he is trying to assert it. Thirdly, we want eternal happiness and bliss. That is Ananda, so that makes Sat-Chit-Ananda. You may say that if one wants to be immortal one must be mad, but since every creature of the world wants these three things, they cannot be mad. Another thing we want is Godhead; we don t like to be controlled by others we like to control ourselves 580

6 All Rights Reserved. A Record of Audiences & Correspondence with and others to get everything. Even from the boy to the adult from the fool to the most enlightened person, everyone wants this. So, when you say, can you aspire, I say aspiration is eternal. [There followed the same story about the lioness and the cub who followed the sheep...] The story ended with the lion giving the cub the blood of a sheep to drink, and asked him if it was not better than the grass he had got used to eating. We have identified ourselves with the senses, like the cub, but they are only our instruments. When we have a Guru who can make us taste the bliss and show our face have the reflection on us, then you will know that you are the lion and not the sheep. Then you will go to Him. R. You spoke of the conquest of Ahankar by love and true Knowledge. Do you not think that there are a great many sheep who are imagining themselves lions? D.S. To say, I am a lion without right Knowledge is only cheating yourself. It is not a question of proving ourselves to others, but of being true to ourselves. The body of the Realized man is also walking, talking and going to the bathroom; the Reality is experienced within it is not an external thing at all. R. Ahankar is all the time imagining and attaching to this thing? D.S. I spoke of the connection between the electricity and the bulb. That connection is Self, that means the super-consciousness. The connection with the senses and the body with the super-consciousness and the un-conscious, that is Ahankar ego. Now as soon as Ahankar is detached, when the connection is off it has its own actions just as inert bodies will move by the previous force, like a fan revolves even after the electricity is switched off. So from eternity you have been connected to this body and these senses, and though the connection is broken, it may move for 40 hours or 40 years due to the velocity, it is prompted by its previous velocity or momentum. Now if you have painted a picture, or written a poem, you have brought out the ideas from within you and then you look at them with pleasure you glorify yourself. So also the super-conscious brings out all these bodies and glorifies Himself it is the nature. There is no duality it is only one just in His imaginations the many are produced. Now about this connection: he is limited because of his identification with the body from saying, I am this body, I am the senses ; when I identify myself with the mind or body, then I become blind. If you are physically blind, yet you still see inside you don t have to use your eyes to see, or your nose to taste, because when in the dream I taste, this nose is not acting I am doing it mentally. As long as you identify with these things whether external senses, or internal mind, buddhi, ahankar or chitta these are all separate from Him. Now if you identify with the super-conscious, then this connection will be broken, and you will be free. You may say, How can the body act without consciousness if this connection is broken? it can go on with the velocity of the previous force, and will have to go on until this force is exhausted. Other people may say, Although he is a Realized man, yet he is still suffering from so many diseases, but for himself he is not suffering the body is just going on by the previous velocity. He does not suffer only in the eyes of others he is suffering, but he has detached himself. Whatever may happen to the body, he is not concerned with it; therefore he is liberated liberation from the body and the functions of the body, destiny and all these things. When this force is exhausted his body will go away and it will not be re-created; whereas in the case of ignorance it will be re-created again and again. This is our own house diagram and we have a natural aspiration to go back to our own house; from a child to an adult this aspiration is there. Now if the aspiration becomes intense, and through the Grace of God, if he wants you to play the rôle of a Saint, you will become a Saint, otherwise you will become something else. 581

7 A Record of Audiences & Correspondence with All Rights Reserved. R. Our whole progress depends on discrimination what is useful to Atman and what is not useful to the Atman; as a judge you had to decide guilty, or not guilty, true or false. I cannot see how you escape that way from duality and from the belief that everything is Param-Atman? D.S. Even as a doctor when you prescribe anything, you will have doubts that the prescription may not be right, and if the patient is not cured, you may worry that if you had prescribed something different it would have been better. The technique for a doctor, or anybody, is this: you go to the Void, and then you see the prompting yourself and you write it down. If you go to the Void, without any thought whatever, the prompting will come and you will write it. But never think about what will happen then. Then you will be doing the right action, because you will not be writing from your limited intelligence, but in tune with the Infinite. Even if the results are not favourable you must not repent over it, because you have acted as an instrument. Not only the patient will be cured nicely because of the infinite power there is a spiritual medicine attached to the ordinary medicine but you will be free from all doubts, that means for the future or the past. If you try to do all actions in this way, you will find you do them without thought; you will always be establishing peaceful equilibrium, at the same time working with God. Working with the individual mind, it is always limited, but with the Cosmic Mind there is no doubt and no thought; that is peace, that is what we want. So in all actions go to the Void, see what promptings are given, be an instrument to manifest, work in tune with the Infinite. Monday 9 October Owing to an infection, Dr. Roles was unable to go to the Ashram. The others went, but as there would not be a session, they offered flowers and fruit to His Holiness in his private audience room and Dandi Swami asked for further questions to be delivered in the evening. Tuesday 10 October R. His Holiness had given instruction to pray to Param-Atman in solitude with a settled mind, and I tried every way for some time. But mind never could do it. Then recently I found that something was praying. Who is it that prays? D.S. There are two things called I the Great Self which is pure Consciousness, and the little self that identifies with the physical body and the senses. One wears temporary clothes, the other is pure, naked. The clothed one is praying to the naked one that he also may be naked. In the story of the lion cub, the lion had not become a sheep, he only thought he was a sheep. There was no physical change only a different mental attitude. 582

8 All Rights Reserved. A Record of Audiences & Correspondence with Prayer is needed only so long as you don t see yourself in the ocean of Consciousness; but in both those states the Param-Atman remains unchanged. H.H. (intervening): The limited one is praying to the infinite. You cannot have complete happiness when you are limited, because there is still something left to desire. As long as the finite is not merged with the infinite, there will be desire, and so effort and prayer will be there. A person once came and asked me: If God is omnipresent and omniscient, then whose ignorance is it? The answer was You are in truth omnipresent and omniscient, and ignorance is only forgetfulness. So the ignorance belongs to the person who is asking that question. D.S. This is a very common question when doubts arise. R. I am beginning to understand also that the film is already made you cannot go to the cinema and ask them to change the reel. D.S. But you can change the attitude of your mind. H.H. There are two sorts of Meditation: one is natural and the other requires effort. God also is meditating in one way, but His meditation is natural; that means being conscious of His own Self. To be conscious of oneself in the continuity of that Consciousness is a meditation in one way. But Jiva-Atman thinking, I am inferior; I must have something to achieve, therefore he makes effort; that is the other sort of meditation. D.S. If you want to help these people practically, it would be necessary to hold a conference of all these people asking these questions, and not only give them theoretical answers, but some practical demonstration only then will they be convinced. I am going on the 12th to such a conference where many Mahatmas will be going to mutually exchange experiences and ask each other questions. Yoga is a practical science. Theoretical knowledge stirs up faith, but only if they do it practically will they understand it. Even if I told you one hundred times what a mango tasted like, until you actually tasted one yourself, you would not know the taste of mango. Once a young man went away, and on his return his uncle asked him what he had enjoyed most. He replied, The Benares mangos. The uncle, who had tasted many fruits, pressed him to say why these mangos were better. The nephew said he would bring him one next time he went there. But the uncle said he could not wait for that and asked him again to describe the taste exactly. So the young man mixed some sugar, to resemble the sweetness of the mango, and some tamarind, for the sourness of the mango. Now his uncle had a long beard, and the young man mixed the sugar and tamarind mixture with the end of his beard (to resemble the fibres of the mango) and told him to taste that as it was the best he could do! They must have the taste. J.R. Asked if D.S.would indicate to H.H. the line he was taking. D.S. Spoke briefly to His Holiness, who appeared to start speaking, but D.S. continued: Take Meditation which has many sides, and is not a panacea for all problems each man is an individual and requires individual attention. So the advice of one man is necessary so that they will not be diverted, and to satisfy them practically. This is how you can spread the yogic ideas. It is a combination of knowledge and practice but, like building a building, the cement and bricks are not enough; you must have foundations. R. The fact is, all these thousand people now know His Holiness s voice very well. They distinguish it from any other voice, and that is why they send these questions to him in order to hear his voice. 583

9 A Record of Audiences & Correspondence with All Rights Reserved. D.S. Of course they have a great regard for him, and intense faith in him; that is why you are spending so much money to come here to hear him. But then Dandi Swami gave a description of his own personal experience: how, before being initiated, he followed the custom that a disciple must be with the Guru for a long time until he is convinced that he is of the right strata for him, and then and then only he will be initiated. He had one Guru when he was young who taught him mostly about work on the physical level. Then he went to a second Guru when his level changed. That Guru died so he had to seek the advice of another Guru. He studied seven years in Benares. When the time came for renunciation, he came and stayed here. In personal life there are so many stages to go through. We only change the Guru when you can go no further with him. What may take five months to learn by theory, may only take five minutes with practical experience. Take anatomy: to learn Gray s Anatomy by just reading it and visualizing it would take five years, but through practical experience of dissecting a body you could learn anatomy in one month. Now our Shankaracharya: he is the receptacle of all experience. He is Yogi, he is Dhyani, he is Jnani himself because he has to combine all these factors within him, otherwise he would not have been called Jagad Guru. He is competent to give practical experience in all these aspects. All your questioners are honest seekers, but yoga is a practical science, and they need practical demonstration. Answers to written questions R.A. s question as to whether in pre-destination these meetings with His Holiness are also on the reel, and will they change his part in the drama? D.S. Past and future is already printed on the cinema reel. Every incident that has happened, is happening, and will happen is already on the reel of the Cosmic mind. If the change is on the reel, then it will happen. Whether there will be change will be indicated by signs. When you come to His Holiness or when you are having spiritual discussions, that means indications the change is inevitable. The cause and effect are in the realm of Maya. Whenever you see the cause (clouds) you are bound to admit it is going to rain. Now this meeting is a cause, and because this meeting is of a spiritual nature, then change will come. M.A. Asked Dandi Swami about being either in ignorance or at home. Asked if there were different levels of man stages on the way some nearer home and some further away? D.S. I said you have a right to go home at any time. Now this home is not separate from you; if it had been separate then you would have needed mile-posts and signposts. It is like the towel round your neck I told you about. You have an attraction for the towel, and maybe hatred for the servants you think have taken it; but it was just forgetfulness. Ignorance is not a new thing it is just forgetfulness of Reality. You ask, What is the indication of whether I am going nearer home or receding from it? The only indication is the degree of thoughtlessness (absence or freedom from thought?). If you are firmly established on the idea that everything is the Will of God, everything is pre-destined, everything is on the reel, then you cannot think about it. Therefore the degree of freedom from thought indicates whether you are nearer or receding. If you are thinking of the past and future what I should have done, or will do that means you are receding; but if you are peaceful in spite of what is happening round you, then you are nearer going back to your own home. If you are imagining in ego, you are far from home. Question from Kenneth Jupp, a barrister. Asks about Self-realization for the family man earning a living. Refers to statement that women and gold are enemy of liberation. D.S. Women and gold are not at all obstacles in themselves; it is only attachment to them which is an obstacle. They may be very helpful. Nothing is an obstacle if there is no attachment. 584

10 All Rights Reserved. A Record of Audiences & Correspondence with He also asked about Patanjali. Patanjali is the author of Patanjal, the name of the Yoga sutra which is a monumental work of analysis and synthesis. Sutra means thread, and it consists of many many flowers, like separate threads, woven into one garland. All modifications of the mind are covered by the Yoga sutra like a garland. Karma yoga means to do work according to your natural propensities, but doing the work directed towards union with God. Then work becomes Karma yoga. In the Yoga sutra every word is pregnant with teaching. He has analysed mind thread-bare. It is a most wonderful book no-one, no saint, can give an experience which has not been covered by Patanjali in the Yoga sutra. Therefore all Yogic teaching, whether directly or indirectly, is based on Yoga sutra. 585