They have both consented to share some of their life experiences with us, and also Richard s experiences in Korea and Vietnam.

Transcription

1 Dave Niles October 1, 2003 Anoka County History Center Mr. and Mrs. Richard Kinney They have both consented to share some of their life experiences with us, and also Richard s experiences in Korea and Vietnam. So, maybe we ll start with you, Richard. Where were you born and raised? Well, I was born in Minneapolis, but we say born and raised in Anoka just in the hospital. We came right back here. My family was raised in Anoka for my whole life until we went in the service. What did your father do? My father was a manager out at Northern Pump. And they were into the military part of it, making ammunition, etc. So that s what he did. Curt Kinney was his name. Did you have any brothers and sisters? Yes. I m the oldest of ten! Ten. Holy cow! So I m the oldest of ten. I can see why you come back here frequently. There s very few of us left. Well, we were either going to retire in Nashville or Colorado Springs. The business opportunities and the environment is better, and we liked.but everybody else is She s the youngest of eight, and I m the oldest of ten. And I m sorry. I didn t introduce Richard s wife with her name. What is your name? It s Darlyn.

2 How do you spell that? D-a-r-l-y-n. Just like the term of endearment. That s how it s pronounced. And where were you born and raised, then? I was born in Anoka, but raised in Champlin. We moved there. We had a farm in Anoka, originally and then Dad got to the point where he didn t want to deal with the farm anymore, so he sold it and we moved over in Champlin. And you re from a family of eight? Yes. Most of them are quite a bit older than I am, so my brother, Elwood, and I almost were like twins like we were the younger children. And did you go then to Champlin High School? Well, they didn t have one then. Oh! Didn t they? No. Where did you go to high school? I went to Anoka High School. Oh, did you? Yes. They bused us here. They had a grade school in Champlin, and I went there through, I think, sixth grade. And then from seventh grade on, they bused us here to Anoka. And when did you graduate from high school in Anoka? I graduated in 54. And Richard, you went to Anoka High School.

3 Yes, I did. And when did you graduate? Do either or both of you keep in touch with your high school classmates? No, we haven t. No, not at all. We traveled so much in the military, moving every few years, we just lost track of everybody. I went back to my class reunion. It seemed like everybody knew me, but I didn t know them, so I don t know what that points to. Yeah, I know what you mean. I ve never gone back. My wife and I were in the same class, and we went to the 15 th, and that was it. We never went back. So when you graduated, what did you do then? Just before I graduated, I joined the National Guard. We got called up to active duty for Korea. Did you have other relatives in the military? Why did you enlist in the National Guard? Why did I enlist in the National Guard? I guess one reason was because a big tornado hit Anoka, and I think in 37 or 38, was it? When the big one hit? Anyway, the National Guard was called up because we had so much damage here, and they set up camp in a baseball field across from our house. And the houses all around us were destroyed, but ours got missed. And they just treated us kids so good that I just said, When I get a chance, I want to go in the service. The military guys were just so nice. And then I joined the National Guard right out of high school, and we were called up. It s embarrassing. The real reason I joined the National Guard was I wanted to get out of the draft, and they called us up right away. When were you called up then? You graduated probably in June. Late 50. I don t know the exact date. Alright. And that was the National Guard unit. It was 125 th Field Artillery, Battery B. That was the local Guard unit.

4 We were sent down to Fort Rutger, Alabama, for our basic training. And then I went over to Korea. I was there in 51 and 52; went over as just a PFC. Let me catch up here. What was the training you received? Basic training. Basic? Basic infantry training. And do you recall about when you finished that training? No, I don t. But then, right after that training were you sent to Korea? Right. I think it was about 12 weeks. We went over to Korea real quick then. We went out to California and shipped out on a World War II troop ship. Went out to Korea 51 and 52 and we went over as all kinds of military occupational specialties, or MOSs. And when we got to Korea, and I think landed at Pusan, they d expanded the perimeter, and they weren t in any problems, anymore. They pushed the Chinese back. When we landed they said There s no MOSs. Everybody s infantry. We don t care if you re artillery or ordinance or whether you re all infantry. And they handed me a BAR, which I d never seen. Browning Automatic Rife. I said, I ve never seen it. I don t know how to use it, and the sergeant said, You will by morning! I was assigned to the Second Infantry Division, the Twenty-third Regimental Combat Team, Second Battalion of George Company. Okay, I m gonna ask you to go through this. Second Infantry Division, Twentythird

5 That s the one you ve got two or three patches out here; it s the one the big Indian hat. I recognize the Twenty Third, because of where you went. Oh, yeah. And then I was on Heartbreak Ridge, and that was the biggest battle I really was in. I earned a Combat Infantry badge there. You had to be in thirty days of continuous ground combat against an armed enemy to receive a Combat Infantry badge, and I received that. It was up in the mountains mostly in the wintertime. It was snowing and cold and after that, a lot of things you see in the movies about combat just I mean, most of the time, it s boring and dull, and you re just sitting around in fox holes, and not much going on. Then when it happens, it ll happen for two or three days, and then it won t be another month or so. And after Heartbreak Ridge, we went on patrols and not much happened after that, because it was pretty quieted down, but I was over there for nine months. Your tour was supposed to be a year, but it was a point thing, and you got so many points for every month you were in combat, and I had so many points that I returned early. Can I back up and ask you a few questions? Sure. You landed in Korea, apparently, in Pusan. Mmhmm. And it sounds like you got shoved into the perimeter there real quick. What were your thoughts, then? I was young, and I thought I was indestructible. I guess I really didn t have any big fear. It was strange. I don t know. It didn t bother me. Kind of a heroic feeling, I guess. Did you wonder why you were there? No. Or why we were there? No. I just figured it was the patriotic thing to do, and the government wanted us there, and we were there. Of course, I guess, maybe in that time in our lives and our history, in the 50s, we were naïve. Just after World War II and you know, everybody was excited about World War II, and the guys that went there were treated like heroes. When we left here, we were. We walked down the Main Street of Anoka, the whole town was ours. You couldn t buy anything in town

6 for two weeks before we left. We marched down to the train depot. Everybody was there. We were treated just absolutely great. There wasn t any of this baby killing thing or throwing rotten eggs or anything. Everybody was just super in town. Good. You know, Pusan, of course, is in the South, and you ended up on Heartbreak Ridge, which is north of the DMZ. Right. How did you get from Pusan to Heartbreak Ridge? By convoy. They convoyed us up in trucks. The perimeter had gone, but we just landed at Pusan but the Pusan perimeter was long gone. They pushed them back way north. Landed there and just unloaded the trucks or the ships, and then we went up there by truck, and they set us down at the bottom of the hill and then we had to walk quite a ways to get out Korea wasn t really too modern as far as warfare goes because all of our supplies then had to carry up the mountain, they had what they called the Korean Service Corps KSC, and about 50,60,70, a hundred kind of like pack animals, and these Korean civilians would carry all the ammunition and everything up the hill just on their backs. It was so long, you could hardly see the end of it. And one thing I remember, and I was still real young, but they used to they learned a little English, and the top sergeant or officer who was up in front of the column, when he wanted them to take a break, he d say, Take ten! Well, it didn t take long and they learned whenever they wanted to take a break, they yelled take ten, and every two minutes, the whole column was stopped because they learned that, and that was passed on by someone in authority so we ve got to stop. Medical evacuations were a lot harder over there than in Vietnam because when guys got hit, we had to carry them off on stretchers. They had those little Bell helicopters like you saw in Mash. For that altitude, they couldn t carry hardly anything. So you had to get the wounded down off the ridge? We had to carry them off by stretcher. They couldn t fly up and take them off. Were you given any oh, I don t know kind of operational information before you hit the ridge? No. Use your fox holes. And the sergeant said, The enemy s that way. Ammunition storage area is over there. Your field supplies and rations you get to the left, and you don t go backwards. I mean they just didn t give you any

7 operational information when you were a private or a corporal. You just went up there and I think that was in September and October of 51. I think so. Well, what memories that you might want to share about that time on Heartbreak Ridge? Well, I was just lucky. Our company went in there, and I think we had over 200, and we came out with about 22 people. And I never was hit. And so I guess I was just lucky. And again, you know, you think you d have revulsions and fear and all that, but I guess and it was really gross, but you ve heard before, the other guy got it, but I didn t. Well, he s a human being, and maybe he s your friend, but you know, you just kind of I m kind of lucky that he d get hit and I didn t. Did you lose some friends? Yes. Well, for you private or corporal how did that battle end? I guess really as a stalemate because after we took Heartbreak Ridge, we never really advanced. We went on deep patrols a lot of times, when we kind of gone deep reconnaisance patrols, but as far as I knew, we never advanced after Heartbreak Ridge. Now maybe they did on other fronts, but again, privates and corporals in the Army, you don t get a briefing on where you re going and what s happening. Anything else you want to say about that time at Heartbreak Ridge? No, that s pretty well it. And then, like I say, after that it was just deep patrols and reconnaisance and force. By that time, about how long had you been in Korea after Heartbreak Ridge was over and you., cuz you mentioned you were there for nine months? Nine months, yeah. Because I was in a combat zone the whole time, so they rotated me out early. I suppose it was two or three months. So you rotated out of the combat area, is that correct? No. We stayed in combat area, and rotated to another zone in the combat area.

8 Oh, okay. We came off Heartbreak Ridge, and they sent another unit up, and then they refilled our unit from the casualties we took. They moved us to another sector in Korea. I d like to know where it is, and then we just went on deep patrol with tanks and artillery. Never really what you d call in tact; we d just go four-five miles, probing, and then we d stay there a couple of days and then turn around and come back. And so how long did you do this? Well, I was there nine months. Just the nine months? Yes. And then what happened after the nine months? They rotated me back to the States. I came back here, and I stayed in the National Guard. And where were you stationed? Here. Right here? In Anoka. Back to the Anoka National Guard, yeah. And what were your duties here? Well, this is an Artillery unit, and I think I d made it up to E5. It was a Staff Sergeant, then. Ranks have changed now. Yeah. Then, in about 1957 well, I met my wife and got married in 55. Let s go back to that.

9 You didn t know Richard when he was in Korea. No. What memories do you have of the Korean War, being here? To be honest, not much. At that time, I didn t know anybody who was there. That right? And being in high school, you know, you re involved in being a high school teenager, and the Korean War was, I thought, rather aptly named when you said the forgotten one. It kind of was. I wasn t involved in it, and so it just didn t mean that much to me. Vietnam, I was though. Well, how did the two of you meet? We met down the street in Anoka, here, right across from a place that used to be Shaddack s. It was a soda fountain, and it was a typical teenager thing. It looked just like what you see in the movies. And mutual friends introduced us, and we just hit it off together I hope after 48 years! And so long were you going together before you got married? I met him in the of my junior year. Well, I think it was during the summer, and between my junior and senior high school years. Oh, okay. And, obviously, I finished the high school, so we dated off and on during that senior year, and were going together, but that was How was it for you? You know, you spent many months in a combat zone. You probably experienced and seen some things that nobody else had seen back here. How was it for you to come back to Anoka after being over there? Well, at first, it didn t seem real. I mean, at first, you were kind of concerned about things, but then, I don t know, I just kind of put them behind me. I don t know how to say it. Mentally. Psychologically. I guess I just pushed them to the back. Alright, so you got married. Mmmhmm. What happened then?

10 Well, we had children, of course. We had two boys and two girls, and in 1957, then I went to Officer Candidate School. How were you able to do that? The local commander I think his name was Lundberg Lundberg. Interviewed a bunch of us and picked out two or three of us to go to Officer Candidate School. I went to and I think it was about 57 - Fort Sill, Oklahoma. How was your experience at OCS? Well, out of my class, about 35% graduated. The rest of them were eliminated from OCS. It was okay, we just worked hard. Why were people eliminated? For academic reasons, and disciplinary reasons, and leadership reasons. They just had trouble taking orders and learning how to give them. About how long was OCS? Six months. No, I m sorry three months. Three months? When you completed OCS, did you receive a commission right away? Yes. After I completed OCS, I came back to the local Guard unit in Anoka, and again, it was a Field Artillery Unit, and I was commissioned a Second Lieutenant, locally, in a ceremony, here, in the Armory over there. Alright. Then I went to the Basic Artillery Officer s course, and I was promoted to First Lieutenant. On the time lines, I m not sure. I ve got all the records at home. And then I went to the Advanced Officer s course, and the family went down with me then, because that was a year-long course. The Basic Officer s course is just three months long, so they stayed here, but when I went down to the advanced course, Darlyn and the children went with me.

11 Where was the basic course? They were all at Fort Sill. Oh, okay. So both of them were at Fort Sill. Yeah, OCS, Basic and Advanced were all at Fort Sill. Or as we call it, cuz it s in Comanche County, Comanche County Camp & College. You got real familiar with that area, didn t you? Yeah. And then I was promoted to Captain, and then the State assigned me as the Commanding Officer of the White Bear Lake Armory. The State National Guard. And about what year was this? I d say The early sixties. Yes. It wasn t long before they went to active duty. And then I put in for active duty, and in 1964, July, we went to Fort Hood, Texas. Talk about misery! I mean going from Minnesota In July. To Fort Hood, Texas, in July, and I was pregnant with our last child, was miserable. What prompted you to put in for active service? I m not sure. I guess I just wanted I had a commission, the pay was real good - I was working at Minneapolis Moline, which used to be south of Hopkins, there. Yeah.

12 They re gone, now, but I worked for them, and the pay was a lot better than any pay I could get working in a factory as a Captain, so I put in for active duty, and we were accepted. Little did I know Vietnam was coming up, so fast. When I got down there, I was assigned as the Commanding Officer of Charlie Battery, the 4 th of the 3 rd Artillery. And that s the oldest artillery unit in the United States Army. Alexander Hamilton bought two Howitzers for General Washington, and that started the 4 th of the 3 rd Artillery. Oh, I see. You have this all in your notes. I m gonna ask you if I can borrow your notes Like I say, when I get home the timelines I m not sure of. That s alright. Nobody ll know we had to use them. You can tell us anything, and we don t know the difference. That s why I showed you that.. He went through trying to hit the base last night, so he d have a vague idea. Yeah. And then in 1965 we were in Fort Hood about a year, and then in 1965, I went to Vietnam. And I was assigned to a Direct Support Artillery Battalion, 1 st Infantry Division. Where abouts? Phouc Vinhe, Vietnam. It was north of Saigon miles. How to do you spell that, do you know? No. I think it s P-h-o-u-c and I think V-i-n-h-e, but I m not North of Saigon. Mmmhmm. And I went home; came back here to Minnesota. And at that time, how many children did you have?

13 We had all four of them by then, and Curt was (that s our youngest) was three or four months when Rich left. It was a long year. They had a song out at that time. It was something about I m coming to take you away. Something about blooming trees and flowering birds, or something..crazy. Yes. It was something like putting you away in a mental institution. And I always said that that was my theme strong during that year when he was gone. Where did you live, here, then? We had a house in Coon Rapids. Did you? Mmmhmm. And we had rented it out when we left. I see. And so when he got orders for Vietnam Fort Hood had been our first station, and I don t know, I didn t really know anybody there. Some of the other wives, but obviously, they were all going. And so I just didn t want to stay there, and at that time, I didn t really know anywhere else. So I just told the people that were in the house that I was coming back and that we wanted our house back for the year. Big mistake, coming back here. Well, I don t know that it was a mistake. It just was, like I say, you didn t know anybody. I knew my own family, obviously, but there was no type of militarytype support at all, here. And sometimes it would get I don t know I d hate to say bad, but it was difficult because the people would say, Oh, gee, I heard about this big battle that the Big Red One had. Well, that s what Rich s unit was, obviously. And the mail wasn t that good, then. And there you are was he in it? I didn t even know until you d get your next letter, because, of course, the Big Red One wasn t just here; they kind of spread them around. Yeah. And I didn t know where he was, so it was kind of difficult. I don t think a lot of the women understood as much about hey, you don t ask all that kind of stuff. You know it in the back of your mind, but it isn t something you want waved in front of you the whole time he s gone. And so it was hard. It was kind of good in the fact that, as I said, my family was here. My parents were alive then, and they lived next door, so that was nice. And my sister lived about 2 blocks away, and it

14 was really nice, because our youngest son had all kinds of allergies, and was kind of like sick all the time. Landed in the hospital about a week before his first birthday. And the funny thing was, though, really was to him, I had a picture of course of Rich, and that was Daddy when he finally learned to say Daddy. And if you asked him where Daddy was, he always went over on the bookcase where his picture sat, and that was Daddy. It took him awhile to know Daddy when he came home. Sure. I can imagine. So, while she s struggling with four children here, what are you doing in Vietnam. Okay, the first assignment I had in Vietnam, in 65, I was an Artillery Liaison Officer, and what we did was when the units went out on operations, the Infantry Battalions that we were assigned to each company is assigned a forward observer, and they re normally First Lieutenants or Second Lieutenants, and then the Liaison Officer is responsible for coordinating the fire of all the units. And they send their fire missions in to me, and I would either cancel them, or I would tell them they could use them. We d plot on the map where the perimeter fire missions would be, and it was my responsibility to coordinate the fire procedures and the Artillery Observer was responsible for calling them in. And then a lot of times I would do aerial surveillance from helicopters, and adjust artillery fire from helicopters. Oh, I see. And then, after about 6-7 months of that, then I got a good job that sent me back to Battalion Headquarters, and I worked in the Fire Direction Center as a Fire Direction Officer. And we received the fire missions and plotted them on maps and computed the settings that would go to the guns. About half the time I was in the jungle all the time; the second half of it wasn t bad. What are some experiences that stick in your mind about Vietnam? I m not sure. I guess, in reality, for me Vietnam was easier than Korea, because in Korea we fought in the mountains and we fought in the snow, and the logistic support. In Vietnam, no matter how bad it was, and so many guys got hit and they d get ambushed, their survival rate was higher than traffic accidents in America. The helicopters got them out so quick and the Medivac ships no matter how heavy the fire was I remember we d be hiding, and those helicopters would come in right through all the fire, and pick up these guys. The Medics were you can talk about all the heroes you want but the Medivac people they did things that we wouldn t do. Yeah.

15 They saved so many people. Yeah, you answered. I was gonna ask you what you thought that Korea vs Vietnam. Yeah. And when I left over there, they told me how hot and miserable it would be. Well, when I left Fort hood, it was about 120, and when I got to Vietnam, it was cooler than where I came from. And they thought I was lying to them, I guess. I really was kind of lucky. I got in there right after the they had the big battles in the highlands at.. It was called Black Virgin Mountain, and when they tried to run over all the Special Forces Camps, I came just after that, so I really didn t get involved in that one. And then when I went back in 70, I came just after the Big Ten Offensive, so I was lucky and I didn t hit it right in the middle of the big offenses. So you had two tours. Yes. How long was your first tour? I was there a year. I think I went over in October or November, but it was just about the whole year of 65, is what it was. And then I came back, and in 66-68, I was assigned to the Air Defense Command in Colorado Springs. And that s ARDCOM; A-R- D-C-O-M. And I was on the Inspector General s team, and we inspected document and missile site security. And that s when we had the ICBMs scattered all over. We don t have them now, but that s what we did. Yeah, that s right. I always wanted to buy one of those things. Silos. Yeah, those silos people have, and they ve converted them. Well, then did you move out to Colorado Springs? Yes. Oh, okay. Yeah, the Army moved her. Tell us a little more about the duties during that period of time, cuz that was an interesting period of time. What s that? ARADCOM? Yeah.

16 Well, I was on the Inspector General team, and we flew out to the missile sites all over the country, and we inspected document and missile site security. One of my two primary jobs was to check to make sure that the documents were given the right military rating of secret. I had a Top Secret clearance. And the other thing that our team did was we inspected and approved the Guard Dog Program. Were your inspections surprise inspections or were they announced? Well, they had announced inspections and then they had surprise inspections, and they had to have at least one surprise inspection a year. So I got to travel around the country quite a bit. It was really interesting. And Downtown Colorado Springs was the headquarters; it wasn t on a military base. Oh, I see. How did we do on the inspections? I think the worst thing that I ever found was I walked into a missile site one time, and they d left the safe open. All the classified documents. And the whole place just blew up. Most of the time, everything was really good and really secure. They got excited getting ready for us, I guess. They took an inventory of all the classified documents, but then when they left, they didn t lock them up in the safe. And then, after that, 68-early 70, I was reassigned to Nashville. I was a Commanding Officer of the Armed Forces Examining Entrance Station. In Nashville, Tennessee. Yes. Tell us a little more about the duties there. I was the Commanding Officer of the station, and what we did was we had doctors and psychiatrists, and when people joined us, any of the services that were drafted, we gave them physical and mental examinations, and those that passed, we swore into the Service. That s the first time I really ran into any problems with this peace drive. We had bomb threats, other than the Security Federal Building, Downtown Nashville, which is a bank building. We had the top two floors of the building, and I was on the Governor of Tennessee s staff for Selective Service. And we had people demonstrating, and we had people come in and pour blood on my secretary s desk. We had a guy come in they carried in a coffin and dumped a so-called body on the floor; it was a wax dummy. And then we had a guy dressed up like Death, carrying a scyhe. But the people in Tennessee treated us absolutely

17 terrific. I don t think I ve ever been to a place where people were as friendly as the ordinary people. How did you like Tennessee? Very much. Yeah? Yes. They were very friendly. Different, obviously, than you re used to in Minnesota. Well, I couldn t tell Minnesotans. Things like that, yes. The church. We, obviously, went to church, and when they d get up in the middle of it and yell, Amen! Hallelujah! Right out loud, they d just jump up in the middle of the sermon. Something that I hadn t come in contact with before, and it was different to me, and I don t think I ever got used to everybody calling either Dearie, or Honey, or You just didn t do that in Minnesota. Maybe they do now. They didn t when I grew up. It was different, but very nice. Beautiful country. Did you run into situations during the Vietnam War that were disconcerting like Richard was talking about that he ran into? I personally didn t. Some of the other wives, as far as I know, did. They d get telephone calls about I hear your husband s one of those baby killers, and that kind of thing. Because, obviously, it wasn t anything I don t know. It just wasn t a popular war, and they didn t really much seem to like anybody who was in the military, and so we ran into problems. As I said, I did not. The people in Nashville were great, and when he went back to Vietnam the second time, I went to that time, I didn t go home. I went to Colorado Springs. Oh, okay. What circumstances led to you going back to a second tour? I didn t have any choice. I guess I blew that one with my lovely wife, because when I came home, I said, You better sit down, and she said, Why? And I said, Well, I m gonna go back to Vietnam, again. I ve been sent there by the Pentagon. And she said, Why did they do that? And then I made the wrong statement. I said, Well, they figure if you ve been in combat once, you got a better chance to survive. And that didn t...i guess you just don t think, sometimes. Although it was.ended up going there three times. Yeah. So, tell us about the second tour.

18 The second tour was great. I was assigned to the 24 th Corp Artillery Headquarters at Danang. I was a Major, then, and I was in the Fire Support Coordination Center that we coordinated the fire from the Navy, the Air Force, and all the Artillery Units. We were the coordinating the top headquarters, and if one of the divisions would go on an operation, then we would provide the fire support by doing all the planning. That was when I got involved in your service. I was assigned to the USS St. Paul for three months. Oh, is that right? And what happened was that they sent a Naval Officer ashore to the Fire Support Coordination Center, and he would tell the Fire Support Coordination Center what kind of support the Navy could give. And then I went out to the USS St. Paul and what I would do, I would tell the ship Commander where our troops were gonna be. I flew back and forth. The most I stayed on the ship and whenever we had any operations coming up, I d take the maps back and brief him on where our troops would be so they wouldn t fire on our own troops, then. St. Paul must have been the flag ship for the Heavy cruiser? Yeah. I m very familiar with it. Yeah. And that was a good assignment. Air conditioned headquarters, hot meals every day, and I didn t go out in the jungle. So that wasn t bad at all. I told her how much I suffered, though. (laughter) Was kinda nice. That one, in fact, I think I got two telephone calls from him. Oh. Yes. They did them through the HAM Operator. They were real nice, and they would transfer you know whatever you call it. They would make sure that the calls got through, wherever. So I actually talked to him a couple of times. And then we had tape recorders like you have this larger one but we had tape recorders, and we would tape letters back and forth.

19 You could actually hear the voice. I don t know really how they did it, but you d call up on the phone and you d set a time, and you d call from the phone in Vietnam, and some HAM Operator would pick it up in Vietnam, and I don t know where I can get you in the country, but they d get some HAM Operator someplace in the country, and then he d hook it up with your family, and then you could talk. They didn t relay; you could talk directly to them. That right? Over like you do with a walkie talkie. Yeah. Because it s going over the radio. It was great. Yeah. When you went to take the second time around, your R & R was in Australia. Australia. The first time, he went to Hong Kong. So then, after that after 1970, 71-75, I was assigned to Fort Gordon, Georgia. Excuse me just a minute. So the second tour was it a year or nine months? A year. And then you got rotated back here at Fort Gordon? Yeah. Another military thing: my whole family was in Colorado Springs, and I wrote them a letter, and supposedly in the military, you can ask where you want to. Well, I said, why ship my whole I got orders for Fort Gordon, Georgia, which is right on the East Coast, a couple hundred miles from the ocean. Why don t you just leave us here in Colorado Springs, cuz then you won t have to move the family and spend all that money on No. So I go to Georgia. So they had to move me and the family. They sent me right to Fort Gordon, and then

20 they moved the family out there. They were nice about schools, though. They tried to wait till your school year was out, and then try to move you. And then, in Fort Gordon, Georgia, 71 and 72, I was assigned to the Military Police School. Instructor. Yup. I was an instructor in the Combined Arms Department. And what that is is that we had people from all the services. We had Marines, Navy, Air Force, and what we did was they took the Military Police training from Military Police. What we did was we briefed and we showed them how to set up perimeter defenses: how to go on patrols; how to handle combat operations. We taught them their combat operations, and then the MPs the Military Police taught them their Military Police thing. And then they shut the Military Police School down. Now in 73 and 75, I was assigned to the Signal School. And I was the Commanding Officer of the Combined Arms Department, and we did the same thing for the Signal Corps Officers. How d you like Georgia? Beautiful state. It s kind of miserable in the summer cuz it s so hot, but I had never seen anywhere that is so pretty. Everything blooms. I mean all the leaves, everything. It s a beautiful state. And our two daughters are there. That right? Yes. Well, in fact, most of the time since we were there that long, the girls went through most of their high school. Lori, in fact, our oldest daughter, graduated from Georgia-high school. Some place called Hepsema. Hepsema High. Doreen came back here for the last year Colorado Springs. Oh, I m sorry. You re right. Came back to Colorado Springs for the last year and she graduated there, and then she went on to college in Georgia..college. And she loved Georgia.

21 Then she got her degree, and she s a family practice physician, and she s living in Brunswick, Georgia, right on the ocean, about 50 miles north of the Florida border. We go down there every winter. The rent s very good. She loves Georgia, because she went to most of her high school there, and she loved it, so she went back there after she got out of college. (Tape ended; second side) And we re just discussing being rifted. Right. He was rifted out of the service. And so, we decided that we would go back. Oh, kind of vacillated between Nashville and Colorado Springs. And in the end, it just seemed to be better job opportunities in Colorado Springs. So we came back here, but then Rich decided, okay, I ve tried three times to go to college, and haven t made it through yet, and he had is military VA thing, so he could go to school, so he went on to college, and I think he was there, what was it, two years? I think so. About two years. Where did you go? Colorado Springs. The University of Colorado, Colorado Springs. He gets this notice from the military: Oh, by the way, we kind of lost your records. You never should have rifted. You can go back in. There was some deal, too, about everybody on some board, all they passed over were people who were not ring knockers, as we call them. West Point. West Point. And you can come back now. As a Lieutenant Colonel instead of a Major. And I said, If you think I m going through that again, you re nuts! We ve got all settled in. He s in school. Like I said, he s about halfway through. And I said, This is silly. No thank you. We ll skip it this time. There s a bug in here someplace. No, not really.

22 So anyway, I got reserved with promotion to Lieutenant Colonel, and then when I reached 65, I could draw my full retirement. So then I drew my full retirement, and we drew as a Lieutenant Colonel. I got my degree and I went to work for a couple of different companies as a Director of Quality Assurance. Let me back up a second. You re 65. You ve retired from the military. And you completed college. What degree did you get? I got a bachelor of science in management and a minor in cost accounting. And you re in Colorado Springs. Yes. And where did you go to work? I went to work for a company called Quality Metal Products. In Denver. How long did you? I worked there until I retired. Let s see. There were 2-3 other little companies I worked for, but that was the primary one. And what I did was I stayed with them as a Quality Assurance manager until we got our ISO9000 certification. You know what that is. So after we got our certification, and I retired at the age of 65. And when was that? What year, dear? Let s see. I was born in 32. What year? 65 would be 97. Yeah. So you ve kind of been officially retired for about six years. Yeah. We kind of knocked around and did different kinds of things. I worked till I was about 62.

23 And what kind of work were you doing? I worked for a company called Styro Motors. It got bought out by somebody else, but the main time most of the 20 years I worked for Styro Motors, in packaging. I worked as a foreman on the assemblies there. And what s your life been like for the last six years? Great! I agree. Well, some minor things. He had a four-way by-pass surgery and then he had to have a PaceMaker put in. Some things that weren t so nice, but on the whole, it s been great. During all these tours, well, let s see. I received a Combat Infantry Badge, I received a Bronze Star with three oak leaf clusters, which means each time they award you the medal again, you get the oak leaf rather than the medal. I received an Air Medal, which is kind of strange for an Army person, but if you re flying in a helicopter in combat situations, even though you re just a crew member and not a pilot, you re awarded the Air Medal. And I may be wrong, but I think it was for every 500 hours or something. I don t remember. Or a hundred hours. I got an Air Medal and an extra oak leaf cluster. I got a Meritorious Service Medal, and then from the Vietnamese Government, I got a Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. And then all kinds of campaign ribbons and lesser things, but those, I guess, are what you d really call medals. What was the Vietnam one? Cross of Gallantry. Do you have more notes? No. You ran out of your notes. I ran out of my notes. Again, kind of bring us up to speed on where your four children are. The oldest two, right now, are in Brunswick, Georgia. The older one, Lori, manages her sister, Doreen, who is the doctor. She manages her office.

24 Doreen talked Lori into it. Lori was here in the Springs for quite awhile. I keep saying here. I m used to being in Colorado. Yeah. I ve you all here. Thank you. Lori was in Colorado Springs for a long time, and she worked in a bookstore, and when Doreen finished her medical training, she bought a practice in Brunswick and she wanted someone to manage her office, and so she asked her sister if she d come down. We kind of wondered about that because as kids, they were normal kids, and they used to fight a lot and stuff when they were teenagers, so we wondered how that works, but it s worked out great. Are they married? Do they have children? Nope. Neither one of them. I only have one child that s married. Our oldest son, Erwin, is in Colorado Springs, and so is your younger son, Curt. Both of them live in the Springs, there. So that s kind of why we go spend summers in the Springs, and then in the wintertime, we usually go down to Brunswick and spend with the girls. Now which of the two boys is in the Air Force? Oh, none of them are now. They were for six years, yeah. Yeah, Erwin was, and one of our daughters was. Our oldest daughter was in the Air Force. She stayed in six years, and she didn t care for it, so she got out. Well, you ve moved around quite a bit. Yes. There were some in between, after Texas, Fort Hood, they shipped us, and I couldn t remember that was another one that the military did. Of course, we were supposed to be hiding the fact we were going to Vietnam. Train loads and train loads of tanks and trucks and everything are pulling out of here, and we re hiding this? But anyway, you weren t supposed to know that that s where they were going, so they sent us to Fort Leonard Wood, Kansas. And I don t think we were there two months. We didn t even get unpacked, and Rich had gone to

25 Vietnam. And they had sent me back home. So they in essence, they paid to move you from Texas to Kansas and then back to Minnesota. Military security. I came home one day and Daryln told me, she said, I was at the Officer s Wives Club, and I heard you guys were going to Vietnam. I said, Nobody s told us a thing, but all the wives knew it. Well, and maybe you ve had a chance to talk to young people, high school or junior high people, but if you had the chance, what would you want to tell them today? Either one of you. I don t know. To me, now, what they re doing now with the ones that are in Kuwait and stuff, I mean, I think that s great. And all these signs you see supporting the troops and that, I think that s great. And I wish we had seen more of it. Yeah, they treated us great when we went over from here, and that s one of the reasons I ended up in the military. The way the people treated us, but not during Vietnam. As an officer, outside of the demonstrations at the offices I was in charge of, personally, out in the streets and stuff, people just didn t bother me. But the young guys who were privates and corporals and that, when they came back, the way they treated them and they d find out that they were in Vietnam. I didn t care. I was career. I cared as far as the soldiers were concerned, but the young guys who were just in for two or three years and got out, they didn t even want to tell anybody they were there because of the attitude towards them, and that s too bad. Nowadays, the support systems are so much different. Of course, Colorado Springs is a big military base. We got 4-5 different units there, so I don t know about here, but there, everything is the wives, the families of the person that gets killed, everybody runs over and helps the family. They donate to them. And it wasn t that way during Vietnam. But now it seems the country s really turning patriotic. In fact, the first time he went to Vietnam, they way they notified a lot of people was they sent a telegram, cuz maybe it was left over from World War II, but there wasn t any Survival Assistance Officers, so they just kind of sent them a telegram in a taxi cab, or whatever, that they d been killed. That s the worst job I ever had in the military. Oh, yes. Different stations there wasn t any specific stations that you were assigned the Survival Assistance Officer. When somebody got killed, a person of equal rank, whether it was a Captain, Major, Corporal well, they always sent an officer if it

26 was an enlisted man, but if it was an officer, you had a person of equal rank and a chaplain, and you had to go out and notify the families. They pretty well knew when you pulled up in a military staff car what was going on. Sometimes, it was Missing in Action. A lot of those people did get back, but most of the time, we went out with the death notices. We had a standard form that you read. And you had to do that several times? Yes. He used to, when he was officer, the day he just hated when the phone rang because you never knew whether it was just someone calling you up to chat or whether it was that you had to go out on.. Years after we got out, I guess it s the only thing psychological, I wouldn t answer the phone at night for years after we got out of the service. Have you been to the Korean War and the Vietnam War memorials in Washington? Yes, we have. Do you know anybody on The Wall Vietnam Memorial? I should, but I don t. What s your impressions of the two memorials? I thought the Korean one was terrific. I really did. I don t know I wasn t involved, as I said, in that war that much, but I thought that memorial was great. Both of them were nice, but I really liked that one. I guess is hard-hearted and cruel to say, and people will think he s not very nice, but you don t get involved with people when you go with them into combat. You don t want to find out about their families. You don t ask what school did you graduate from? You just I don t know. I think the worst one for me was I think it was the second tour, when they were getting ready. Rich and another officer that was coming home with him and we were all in Colorado Springs the wives they were getting ready to get on this helicopter to go home, and he got shot. He made it though the whole year.

27 You can talk about being a hero or knowing what you re doing, but it s just pure luck. Then we had a West Point officer -.where that was; Fort Hood, or something, he d never been to Vietnam. And for some reason, they didn t want to send him. I don t know if he was scheduled for higher things. I think he was a Major. He pulled every string he could to get over there, and he got killed in a month. So, it s just luck. Since you retired from the military, have you been involved in veteran s organizations? No, I haven t. Is there anything else you would like to say or talk about? I don t think so, except that the military was good to us. All the time we were in, I thought it was great. Their insurance now is just I don t know how some older people make it. All our drugs are free, all our medication everything s free that we do. Since they went to the military just changed their insurance. They went from Medicare to Tricare, and what Medicare Part B doesn t cover, Tricare covers. You used to have to go to a military doctor. If you were in some part of the country where there wasn t a military station, you had to get approval to see a doctor. Now you can go to anybody you want and it s paid for and all your medicines are free. That s good. So it takes a lot of the worry out of getting older and being retired. Well, I want to thank both of you for sharing so much. And I want to thank you for serving. Well, thank you very much. And I want to thank you for serving. (his wife) Thank you. The people of Anoka were so nice to us. At first, when I went over, they treated us like heroes, and I think that s why I wanted to stay in the military. If I d have had bad treatment at the beginning, I never would have. Well, that s good to hear.