Fairfield Osborn Preserve Oral History Project. Spring Drs. Claudia Luke and Steve Estes. Interview of William Matson Roth

Transcription

1 Fairfield Osborn Preserve Oral History Project Spring 2013 Drs. Claudia Luke and Steve Estes Interview of William Matson Roth Conducted by Alexander E. Porter in William and Joan Roth s backyard in Petaluma, CA on April 18, 2013 Alexander (Alex) Porter: OK. So I m here with William Roth. It is April the 18th, Mr. Roth, can you tell me when and where you were born? William (Bill) Roth: San Francisco. At a hospital down in (inaudible) which is on California and Van Ness. My mother s pains came during a Seals baseball game, which doesn t exist anymore. So that was September 3 rd, AP: And what did your parents do? WR: My father was born in Honolulu. My mother s father was Swedish. His parents died he left his little seaside town when he was eleven and shipped to sea as a (inaudible), rose to be a sailor and came around the Horn, landed in San Francisco in something around 1896 I guess, but and ultimately met a man called Spreckels who but him on a boat that carried sugar up the Bay to the refinery. Uh, I could get the name of the company, but ultimately they became close and he went through the ranks and finally became a captain of a sailing ship to the Hawaiian Islands. And then he raised the money to start his own company, which was the Matson Navigation Company. And uh, as the industry progressed, he progressed. Then he got into oil and started an oil company near Bakersfield. My father s father was a haberdasher in Honolulu, (inaudible). My mother came to San Francisco my father asked my mother to marry him she said fine. Then he went to see her father and he said no (Alex laughs). And he was a sugar broker or something like that. Ultimately my mother was sent to to Europe with her mother to get over it, but she instead, she was really stubborn, she got ill and so her father gave up and said they could get married if he went to work for the company. Ultimately, long after he [Bill s grandfather] died, he [Bill s dad] worked up till he was president. AP: Mmm. And what did you study when you were in school? You went to Yale as an undergraduate is that correct? WR: Yeah. English and History.

2 AP: Oh! (chuckles) WR: In my final year I had become interested in the poet W. B. Yeats in the bibliography of the Yale library. So when we were married [WR and his wife Joan], the war was just over and getting to Ireland spent four or five months there. AP: And how did you and Joan meet? And when did you meet? WR: Uh. We met after I came I was 4F so I joined OWI and went to Alaska and finally to India and Burma and, that s the Office of War Information, and the war was over and I came back. There was a girl I knew who had rented the top of her parent s house, or apartment, and that s where I met, she, the girl I knew said here s this beautiful girl and, she had several very beautiful friends, and keep your dirty hands off them. (Alex laughs) Ultimately, I said ultimately, rather quickly we met. AP: Um, this is a question specifically from Claudia Luke. Um, to what experiences would attribute your interest in the environment? Does that come from your college years? (WR wanted the response to this question removed. He called AP the day after the interview took place and explained that he wanted the following answer substituted. WR first explained that Joan had been brought up on conservation. He then said that they had both been brought up with horses, Joan s family having been hunters. WR finished by saying that the reason they bought the property was because they had always wanted to have a place where they could ride and have dogs.) AP: Um, could you recount again the story of when you first visited the property that s now that Fairfield Osborn Preserve? Because I thought that was wonderful. WR: Well uh just repeat the? (Bill told me this story almost as soon as I walked in the door to his house after I had introduced myself. I asked him if he would repeat it on video) AP: Yeah. That would be wonderful. I thought it was great. About driving up from Sausalito WR: Well I was lucky, we sometimes, sometimes I drove for a place for weekends. And of course you bought such things then for nothing. And uh, they were hard to find. You d hear about this one piece and you had to go through the same road that s there now. Now its been paved. Seven or eight gates, which had to be opened and closed. Later when we had the place, the children loved to do it for the first month or so and then fought to see who wouldn t have to. But in those days it was just one house (inaudible). And there were, uh, scarce people around because they would farm or work for farmers and a person by the name Duerson which was probably

3 the biggest, uh and here I need my wife to, JOAN! Would you just mind telling the story about what s his name on the hill above us? I can t. Joan Roth (from inside the house off camera): What are you asking? WR: I want that story about what s his name on the hill above us. In the evening, when he sang his song. JR: I ve already given that. WR: Hmm? JR: I told that to WR: I know, but we re not (Joan, Bill, and Alex laugh at Joan s reluctance and William s insistence that the story be told) JR: He s cheating. He s really cheating. AP: He s telling some great WR: No I m not! JR: I was so mad at you. I don t see why I have to be nice to you now. WR: Cause I thought you wanted just a (inaudible because Joan is walking to the table and pulling out a chair to sit next to her husband) thing so I didn t come in. I ate my lunch out here. Infuriated her. JR: Well Meg was two hours late you know? AP: I know and I have to apologize. That was partially my fault. I had thought that you lived in Santa Rosa. JR (still laughing): She kept saying, Is it next to the YMCA? We don t have a YMCA in Petaluma. AP: She was very distressed and she was not happy with me (laughing) WR: So go ahead (to Joan) JR: What did you want? WR: I want that story about when we first got there and the who was on the top of the

4 JR: Elfig? [sp?] WR: Huh? JR: Is it Elfig? WR: Elfig. Yeah. JR: Yeah. WR: And what would he do at nighttime? When the sun was going down he d have his white horse up there... JR: He was drunk. WR: Oh he was drunk? OK. JR: Yeah. And he d sit on his hill, on the hill with his white horse behind him. Yeah. WR: And sing? JR: (singing in a drunken voice) I m all alone. Nobody loves me. Its just me and my horse. Over and over. You could see him outlined. (everybody laughing) WR: He d love to talk. So and he talked. JR: Not as much as Oh yes! And he was the one that kept saying and as I was going down the street again, Oh excuse me! I meant I, I, Oh excuse me friend! Then, if he didn t go and give me that Oh, excuse me! (Joan and Bill laugh at the memory) It was wonderful! WR: So we d see him coming down the uh, if we were in the house, hill to have a little conversation. So we d crawl on the floor and go out the back window. JR: That was Mr. Horn! WR: Oh that s Mr. Horn! JR: Going around the Horn with Mr. Horn! (everybody laughing) WR: Did Mr. Horn live on the same mountain? JR: No he lived right below us. He lived in Jim Rivers house. WR: Oh Jim Rivers! Oh wow.

5 AP: Wow JR: Them were the days. Twelve gates to get up that hill! AP: And all these old guys that want to do all the talking, they re ranch hands or farm hands, something like that? JR: We don t know what they do. (Alex laughs) They drink. (Joan laughs) WR: Well I think they helped. They might have helped Duerson on some stuff. They might have even been a relation. I don t know. Then there were, ah JR: They used to they would, um yeah (Alex laughs) WR: There were some wonderful people. As the mountain became a little bit more developed, I went out one day and there were signs all out over below us, property sold, property sold, property sold. Well apparently some of the people wanted to pull this gag on this very nice man who (to Joan) that was Rivers? JR: Jim, yeah. WR: Jim Rivers JR: Dearest man. Our daughters were in love with him. WR: who wanted to build a little house there. It was just on him. Unfortunately he had a sad life. But he was a sweet man. JR: It was a sad life. WR: Excuse me is it Alex? AP: Alex. That is correct. WR: I suggested that Alex get ahold of the Duersons. JR; Jane is Jane. AP: Jane? JR: And evidently Lucille is still alive. WR: Goodness. AP: And you think the Duersons might know something about some of the earlier history of the property is that correct?

6 JR: Oh they d know a lot. AP: Yeah. JR: Cleve I think, and Lucille, they moved there Its Ruffino! (Interview interrupted for 2 minutes 30 seconds by Ruffino, a friend of the Roths) AP: Um, I lost the thread a little bit. Could you just talk, maybe, a little bit about what life was like on the property in the fifties and sixties, and what you did when you were there? WR: Well by then we had two children. Until, uh one day Joan was walking up that path to Maggie s house with a friend, half way up she had labor pains. JR: Oh, I was pregnant already (Joan and Alex laugh) WR: So she was able to get down and get to Franklin Hospital in San Francisco. But uh, that was just one episode. We had different animals. We had, two horses? (to Joan) JR: We had three. Four. And even four at some times. We had Thunder, and Black Bart, No Name, and Samiso (sp?). And that awful Tag (sp?) that I was always giving him a WR: And we had two very disagreeable geese. JR: And a donkey that tried to, had different ways of murdering you. WR: And our old dog. Maybe we had two dogs there? JR: No we just had one. That would be in the beginning. WR: It was marvelous. So that it was, as much of a part of our life as anything. And when, a couple of weeks ago, when we went back to the lower part of the Preserve, where the house was burnt, went in and saw the trees that we d planted when we were there, now were enormous (Joan and Alex laugh) JR: Makes you very old. WR: And then walked to the barn and the late house is there, we were both filled with hidden tears, and uh we feel very emotional about, um particularly that part. And later we bought from the Duersons another section, a larger one. And we were going to go down to the creek, but we can t get that far. What else did we do? (to Joan)

7 JR: We picnicked a lot. We walked a lot. We read and read and read a lot. And WR: It s a wonderful place. We know that the kids liked it. AP: I bet they did. JR: Yeah they look back on it. In those days you could get on to horses and you could go up over the hill past the (inaudible) property, down through the Jack London property to Glen Ellen. There was a very little Italian restaurant. Have dinner there. Come back. Just heaven. It was just heaven. One restaurant in Glen Ellen. AP: Hmm. Would WR: Except you don t think back with pleasure of having to pack the food and everything in Sausalito. JR: Oh my. Heavens no. AP: How often were you on the property? I mean WR: Every weekend. AP: Every weekend? JR: And we d spend two or three weeks in a row in summertime and then go another two or three weeks, certainly a very We had and old Jeep that actually still exists, and um, it was one of the first Jeeps from And I used to just throw the kids in the back with the dogs, say, Hang on to the baby. Don t let her fly out. And then go whipping down the hills with no top I can t looking back. And Maggie said she couldn t believe they used to just get on their horses and disappear for three or four hours. AP: Hmm. JR: And, they d come back and there was WR: I was amazed by that story you told the other day, which I hadn t realized that when you d got back from the walk when you had your first pains. The kids had gone off for JR: Yes. Maggie said she came back, from hmm AP: What, what, you alluded to some of the buildings on the property. What existed when you first bought it and what was there when you, when you donated it?

8 WR: The barn and the house that burnt down. As Joan said we were in New York. At a point we bought the property at Elk, the same day the house burnt down. We were down (inaudible). What happened was, uh the lady who worked for us, her name was Kelley, who was named Kelley, (inaudible) after her, gave a goodbye party the next day. They were absolutely meticulous people. They had gone through every bit of that house so it was not, uh, leftover stuff or anything like that. So it remains a mystery. And we wonder. AP: Hmm JR: They were from, uh, African American from Marin City. Very noisy. Very loud. Ha! WR: Live ins. And (inaudible). JR: Now don t get me in it (moving chair out of frame). That s cheating. (everybody chuckling) AP: Well, your husband wants JR: Don t know what you d use my voice. AP: Your husband wants to cheat Joan. But, he is the focus. Or at least he s supposed to be. Um JR: Can I go back in again then? WR: Stay another five minutes, then you can go back in. AP: Why did you Let s move on to the, to the, to it becoming a preserve. Why did you decide, um, to donate the property to the Conservancy? WR: Well, she thought it was a Of course her father was a conservationist, but uh, I don t think she really wanted to do it, and she s regretted it ever since. (Joan laughs) That s why when we gave the last piece of property to uh, well first we put it under this bargain purchase thing and then Sonoma, uh, what do you call it? Land conservation and agriculture information. You sell the property thirty to forty percent off or something like that. But I reserved out of it the so-called pig field at the top. It was the last piece of property we owned. But it was a pretty difficult beautiful piece but uh, with Sonoma Mountain right up, uh, deal with it because the entrance was through the Preserve, which would have been absolutely (inaudible). From the top was the road we use, and theoretically you have a right because its going back when its necessary, but we could never get the legal permission because some So its in, going to be in the (inaudible) too. How did I get to that? AP: Do you remember why you decided to name it after Fairfield Osborn?

9 WR: Because of my, uh, one, because of relationship. But he was the uh, the head of the Zoological Society. And he wrote the Plundered Planet, which came out before Carson s book. And it seemed like the right thing to do. AP: Did his work in Africa creating preserves and, and you know, conservancies have anything to do with either the naming or deciding to donate the land? WR: Yeah I suppose. JR: Africa? No. He started that preserve in Kenya. But that was really he wanted the people in Kenya, in Nairobi he really wanted people in Kenya to realize what treasures they had. So it was more for the educational park, right near Nairobi so you could get to it easily. When I went with your mother I met the two men that planted it. Who d been, uh WR: And how did we decide on the educational program? JR: I think Lynn. WR: Hmm? JR: Lynn. Lynn and Larry. Lynn Lozier and Larry. Just talking to them we decided it would be a great idea. WR: The first JR: May I be excused? WR: Sure. You may. AP: Thank you Joan very much. It s supposed to be with your husband. JR: I know. (laughing and walking back into the house) Cheater. WR: The first We originally gave it away to the Conservancy. And then the Conservancy decided to send it (inaudible). They made an arrangement with the University. And then I made the gift to the University. And then later I guess I sold the easement, it was a bargain rate too, agricultural land, I think they had been running through a ballot, and then gave that to them. I gave that to them. (inaudible because of aircraft flying directly overhead) AP: Could you talk just a little bit, for posterity s sake, about Fairfield himself and his personality or any memories you might have of him? WR: Of whom?

10 AP: Of Fairfield Osborn himself. WR: Oh. Joan s father? AP: Mm hmm. WR: He was a real character with a very distinguished background. His Joan s middle name is Adams because they descended from the Adams. And the other line from the Perry s [Oliver Hazard Perry]. His father s field was, specialty as I remember, Joan should be here, was elephants, as a paleontologist. And he was the first, as I remember, professional to be the president of the New York Museum of Natural History. Is that what its called? And, then, uh, he was in the brokerage business in Philadelphia until, um, he came back to New York. Ultimately he became secretary of the Zoological Society and then ultimately he became the head of it, of the zoo. And uh, he was a great crack up. He was wonderful. He transformed the zoo into something more dynamic in the society. Getting away from the old business, which was terrible for the animals. He brought in a lot of money from people he put on his board. He became particularly close to Lawrence Rockefeller. Together they started the Conservation Foundation. There s an article around here someplace, we can find it, by Rockefeller after he [Fairfield] died, in a series about the most interesting people I ve known, and he did it on Fair. He d have these enormous annual meetings at the Waldorf Astoria, and he d always have something mind blowing. One of the ones I remember is he came on stage with stage hands, and they were carrying a boa constrictor until it reached all across the stage. So anyhow, that was Fair. AP: Yeah. Sounds like a fascinating guy. I mean he is, obviously. Um, you touched on it briefly before, but can you talk about donating the additional land in 2004 to Sonoma State? What, I mean you spoke about it earlier WR: Well they had been earlier AP: Right. WR: so obviously it should go together. And, um, we were always particularly been interested in the educational program and the possibility of research. And, uh, it was done very well by then director, before Claudia. But when Sonoma State got it, it was expanded and more schools were involved, and research became important (inaudible), and I think that s very key. And it fits in so beautifully with Galbraith and hopefully maybe some program, and it, so you ll get the flow, along range down out, and uh, that s why the history of it is equally important. AP: Yeah.

11 WR: I haven t (inaudible) Claudia, driving herself right crazy, but she does a wonderful job. AP: Do you think the educational aspect that you spoke of would have, do you think that would have interested Fairfield? Do you think that s something he would have liked? I mean, what aspects of the Preserve would have interested him? WR: Yeah he would have liked it, no question. He never saw it. He died. He had a series of strokes. Finally, he lost speech more or less. He d write notes. He d be writing notes saying, This is something I deserve after all the talking I ve done. (Alex laughs) And uh, but after he died Marjorie his wife moved out here with us, and it was nice. AP: Do you have any other specific stories or memories you d like to tell about the Preserve. Anything else you can remember that was funny? The story was great about the drunken singing, but Is there anything else like that that you can recall? WR: My memory is (Alex chuckles) rusty. AP: What about a favorite spot? Is there an area WR: You can t disconnect a piece of property from the actual living there, and uh, people who would come up for weekends. Unfortunately, the girl, Tanya Whitman, from whom I met Joan, she d given me some wonderful things that burnt too. A chest with a St. Nicholas wreath on it from the 19 th century. A beautiful table in the kitchen which was where we d hide under when what s-his-name up on the hill would, well that was it. And it was just uh I m sure Joan might remember some if you kicked her a bit, but I, specific things. I d come up, usually, but sometimes I was, I was then working at Matson I guess and I would sometimes go on longer trips to the islands or something. She d be there with the children, and friends would come. It was great. AP: Did you have a specific spot, or an area that you liked, or that you and Joan liked together? Or even one that the kids liked? WR: Well you see the original piece was much smaller. So we sort of lived, except for the road, you could ride every place, and get through the gate. We built a small dam, as wide as that window (points to windows about eight feet across behind Alex) two, two of them (laughs), on the creek. So this was the swimming place. Go there on a hot day. It was great. One thing that had to do, I suppose, with our leaving, or even getting Elk, which we adore too but is much more difficult to get to, is our great horror when the electrical wires went up. It just was something you didn t want to see. From the house you could only see it a little bit below the trees. If you were going down to the creek, which we were considering, uh trees would maybe take out some of the view. But it changed it. Now we re so used to it. We still go to Maggie s adjoining place. So used to it you don t pay any attention. Except this next

12 terrible thing is that they cut this wide swath for fire reasons. But, it seemed to change a little bit. But, as we did a few weeks ago, going back to the bottom piece, its just like it was except its overgrown. And uh house is gone. The little outside kitchen that was where you put up a little, uh what s the wire you put up to keep mosquitos out? Bugs out? What it is? AP: You mean the little zapper? Or a, or you mean a net? A mosquito net? WR: Yeah. AP: Yeah. WR: Not a net. Just the wire. AP: Oh ok. Yeah yeah. WR: Yeah. And, uh, at a point this man who worked for us built this old house that s there now, as a place I had to work where I wanted to. And then when the house burnt down we used that as a house for a time. And um, it was never quite the same. AP: So you spoke of how nice it is that the school can kind of integrate their, integrate the preserves in an educational, um to be used in an educational setting. Is that kind of what you and Joan, is that what you see, is that kind of your vision for the future of the Preserve? To be used educationally by the school in conjunction with the other preserves? WR: Mm hmm. AP: Yeah. WR: Yeah. Very much so. AP: Yeah Well that covers just about everything. WR: Good. AP: Is there anything else you would like to relate about the Preserve? Your feelings about it, the way the school handles it, or anything? Any other memories? WR: No. I think they ve done a wonderful job. AP: That s great. WR: And from the beginning with the Conservancy they were in good hands, one, with one exception where it wasn t quite as strong, because it was sort of semi-open to the public. And that was ruinous. You want people to enjoy it, but on a restricted

13 circumstance. And uh, and the same, what I d like to do with Elk is, just have a research element there. It shouldn t be done expansively. But, it s very emotional to go back. I called them and said could we go back, this is two weeks ago, and have a picnic there for our birthday, uh, anniversary? It wasn t Claudia, it was, uh, who does the financing? AP: I m not sure. WR: Ahhhhh, as long as she doesn t hear this. AP: The only person I ve met is Claudia in connection with the Preserve. WR: Well anyhow, wasn t sure. We didn t go, we went to Elk. But uh, the whole area is so precious all the way to the ocean. The more you can save, the better most is used for education purposes. AP: Mm Hmm. WR: And, it is worrisome. There s still the problem with the oaks. And the disease is carried by the bays. And they re just as beautiful. So it s a get over to as far as Elk, near the ocean there, beating, and then you go up to the top of the mountain and there is a patch of sand, earth, risen, and so its, amazing. Well, it s been good to talk to you. AP: It s been wonderful. WR: This, I just happened to look at this last night so I thought I d show you a map of the land (unrolls a Roth era map of Preserve and its surrounding parcels of land on table). This, we re up here and here and Maggie s here someplace. And this was Matsui, which was a big piece. Wonderful up at the, here s the top. Have you been up there? AP: I ve just seen it from below. WR: You ought to go look Alex, its really a spectacular view. And the animal life, of course, is still around. Maggie, who has children and grandchildren, one daughter with her two, three, and four year old sons working down the hill, but two (inaudible). So she ll probably show you some fields linked to the house. As feed gets collected while they re coming down its (inaudible). Coyotes, which will eat the sheep, chickens AP: One question that somebody asked me (Joan opens door and steps back outside), did you, you knew the Lozier s, Lynn and, uh, her husband, uh JR: Larry.

14 AP: Larry. Thank you. Um, did you know them before they were the caretakers of the property, or JR: I don t know how they got there. WR: We probably got them through JR: Remember Lynn, she worked down at a coffee shop? She had a little short dress with a little apron. (laughs) You should stop now. WR: Yeah. We might have gotten them through the Conservancy. I don t know. AP: Hmm. JR: That was your daughter, oldest daughter. All three checked in this morning. She had lots of memories to give you. WR: Oldest daughter s living in Mallorca. AP: Ok! Well thank you very much. JR: I hope I didn t botch it all. AP: No! You absolutely did not. JR: But this is not mine. AP: You absolutely did not. I m not sure why (recording ends)

15 Dr. Luke, As you will see in the transcript or hear in the video, the Duerson family seems to have been a major factor in the lives of everyone on the mountain (a phrase often used by all the Roths. Lucille was the matron as is apparently still alive. Bill and Joan thought that her daughter Jane would be the best person to contact however, and would be knowledgeable about the general history of the area, including the Preserve. Some members of the family (Jane I believe) still live on the mountain. The other name mentioned with excitement by the Roths was Mary McChezny. She is an artist and is the neighbor of Maggie Roth. She is also supposed to be very knowledgeable about the area s history and has been a major figure in that history (she and her husband protested the Christo fence). It seems that both the Duersons and the McCheznys could be contacted through Maggie Roth. Finally, it seems to me that the Roths would like to continue recollecting their time on the mountain. Maggie especially expressed a desire to have her parents and her (and maybe her sister) sit down again with more preparation to give anecdotes to an interviewer for posterity. As you know, the Roths have a keen interest in education and the value of the Preserve in being a tool for instruction. I believe that they would like to construct a larger body of oral history to further that purpose. I;m not sure how you would like to proceed, but I think their plans warrants some thought at the very least. Thank you for the opportunity to participate thus far and good luck! Alex Porter