IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA

Transcription

1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA I N D E X T O W I T N E S S E S TAMMY KITZMILLER, et al : : CASE NO. v. : :0-CR-00 : DOVER AREA SCHOOL DISTRICT, : et al : FOR THE DEFENDANTS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS Alan Bonsell By Mr. Gillen By Mr. Harvey TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BENCH TRIAL AFTERNOON SESSION BEFORE: HON. JOHN E. JONES, III DATE : October, 00 :0 p.m. PLACE : Courtroom No., th Floor Federal Building Harrisburg, Pennsylvania BY : Wendy C. Yinger, RPR U.S. Official Court Reporter APPEARANCES: ERIC J. ROTHSCHILD, ESQUIRE WITOLD J. WALCZAK, ESQUIRE STEPHEN G. HARVEY, ESQUIRE RICHARD B. KATSKEE, ESQUIRE THOMAS SCHMIDT, ESQUIRE For the Plaintiffs PATRICK T. GILLEN, ESQUIRE RICHARD THOMPSON, ESQUIRE ROBERT J. MUISE, ESQUIRE For the Defendants THE COURT: All right. Q. Do you remember any other teachers speaking? DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONTINUED) A. Jen Miller spoke. And basically, what I can BY MR. GILLEN: recall is that, she still was on the point that she Q. All right. Alan, before we left off for lunch, didn't want to teach intelligent design. we were approaching the October th board meeting. I Q. What about other board members? Was there any want to ask you some questions about that meeting and response from board members to the public during the your recollection of events, as soon as I get my outline public comment section that you can recall? in order. Do you remember attending that board meeting? A. Basically that, you know, ID is not creationism, A. October th meeting? absolutely is not creationism, and that we weren't Q. Yep. requiring them to teach it. Q. Do you remember telling members of the public Q. All right. Well, let's -- tell us what you that during this meeting? recall beginning with the public comment portion of that A. I think that's, when they were saying that, at meeting. Do you recall any comments being made? some point, that was said. A. I believe Bert Spahr spoke at that meeting. And Q. What about the activities of board members when Jen Miller spoke at that meeting. I believe there was a the agenda item came up for consideration by the Board? few other people that spoke. Do you remember what happened at that time? Q. Do you remember anything that you heard at that meeting from Bert Spahr? Q. Tell us what you remember. 0 A. I believe it was still, we were on the same 0 A. Basically, there was a whole bunch of amendments subject of what they had talked about before of, they that were proposed, I believe, by Noel Weinrich. were afraid they were going to be sued, and I believe Q. Well, with that in mind, let me ask you to look she still mentioned the fact of creationism being -- at Defendants' Exhibit? intelligent design being the same as creationism, that A.? type of thing. Q. Yeah. And direct your attention to the page with

2 the bait stamp number in the lower right-hand or on the versions that -- corner? I mean, we had already done all this work on A.. these other proposals. I wanted to get back, and I Q. What do you see there, Alan? think, you know, I remember saying, I want to discuss A. I see basically a bunch of motions and calls for the issue. I mean, this was just parliamentary votes on amendments and calls for questions, call of procedures here going on. I mean, it didn't have to do vote, questions, different things along that line. with the subject at hand. I mean, I didn't think it Q. Are these the votes on motions made by Mr. was. Maybe he did. I don't know. Weinrich that you recall? Q. Okay. I'd ask you to go to Exhibit. A.? Q. Okay. What was your reaction to Mr. Weinrich's Q. Correct. Do you recognize that document? parliamentary maneuvers? A. Yes, I do. A. I thought it was silly. I mean, he was just -- Q. What is it? it was almost like playing a game. And we weren't A. That is my own personal memoranda, which I have talking about the real issue, the three things that we written on, concerning the biology curriculum and also a had that were that we were going to discuss. And this draft of the curriculum with my personal -- that I had. didn't serve any purpose, I didn't think. Q. Okay. Let's look at it. Do you remember Q. Did you want to discuss any of the amended articulating a position at this October th, 00, versions that Mr. Weinrich was proposing that evening? board meeting about the various versions and what your 0 A. Well, I basically -- I mean -- can you say that 0 goal was for this meeting? again? A. Well, I mean, it's written on here, you know, not Q. Yeah. I'm not asking you to look at the voting limited to any one theory, I have written on here. And record or anything. I'm asking you to give us your my goal was to try to bring something that everybody recollection concerning when Mr. Weinrich made these would come together on, everybody could agree on it, if motions, did you want to vote on what he was proposing it was possible. I mean, that was my objective to do that. curriculum committee's version to add this note? Q. I'd ask you to turn to the page of Defendants' A. Yes, I did make a motion to add this to this Exhibit that has the number in the lower particular -- this -- this concept here. left-hand corner. Q. Okay. Well, your response points to a need for a question. What were you adding the note to? Whose Q. There are notations on that page. Are they your version? The Board curriculum committee's? The staff notes? administration? A. It was basically the board curriculum Q. And would you read the notes for the record? committee's. A. The whole -- just my notes that I had, Q. And why were you adding your note to that handwritten notes? version? Q. Yes. A. Well, I already knew that the board curriculum A. I had a big A with a circle around it, and then I committee came through with this, and the teachers had had in parentheses underneath the context concepts o, problems with teaching, you know, ID. And so this note, note: The origins of life is not taught. I thought, would take care of all those, would take care Q. Did you make that notation on the evening of of that. October th? Q. And how did you think it would take care of that? A. Origins of life is not taught, so that should Q. And why did you do that? take care of their problem of the origins being taught. 0 A. Because what -- what I had tried to do is to get 0 It's not taught. everybody, the teachers, administration, the board Q. Do you remember how your motion was received by members all together, and I thought, by changing the the board on that evening? one, taking the one note from the one, and putting it I believe it was straight nine, zero vote with this, that would take care of it. to include it. Q. Did you make a motion to amend the Board Q. And was the board curriculum committee's version

3 of the curriculum change, as amended, by your motion, it was inconsiderate, especially saying, you know, they approved by the board on the evening of October th, resigned without even mentioning the fact that they were 00? going to do this ahead of time. Q. Well, you know, I'm going to ask you a couple of Q. And do you remember the final vote on that questions, but one of the most difficult for me to ask version? certainly personally is this. Did you tell Casey Brown A. I believe the final, final version was a six to that she was going to hell as a result of her actions on three vote. the board or her resignation? Q. So you worked out the actual final version at the A. No, absolutely not. meeting on that evening? Q. Would you ever say something like that to A. Yes, with adding that on. someone? Q. And again, in doing so, what was your goal in A. No, I would not. proposing this approach to the matter? Q. Is that a very serious, in fact, hateful thing A. The whole goal was to try to bring the people for someone to say, in your judgment? together. I mean, that's -- that was the whole goal. A. Absolutely, it is. That's what -- you know, I was president. That's what Q. What happened after the October th, 00, I'm trying to do. I'm trying to lead, you know, meeting next? Do you recall the next step seen from everybody together and try to get consensus, if it's your perspective as the chairman of the board? possible to do. A. Well, I guess we were trying to get together 0 Q. Do you remember the Browns resigning on the 0 exactly how we were going to do this, implement it. evening of this meeting? Q. Well, let me ask you to look at Defendants' Exhibit? Q. And what was your personal reaction to their A.. resignation? Q. Do you recognize that document, Alan? A. Well, I thought it was ridiculous, and I thought A. Yes, this is a draft of what the teachers were to read in biology class. Q. Well, did you have an impression at this time now Q. Do you recall receiving this document? concerning the accuracy of the coverage of the events at this meeting? Q. Was there some discussion of making students A. I think at this point, I think they're still aware of intelligent design by reading a statement when reporting, you know, we're going to teach creationism. the board held its meeting on October th? Like I said, it went on. And also, we were going to A. Ask that again. teach, I remember teaching, that was in the news media, Q. Well, this statement, where did it come from? through the papers, through the news -- TV. That was Had there been some discussion by the board and on, I think, months after this proposal was passed. I administration about it? believe it was still being reported that we were A. There would have to be something. Once we have teaching it. this, now it's not being taught, so we have to find a Q. Did you speak to any reporters about the way of how we're going to implement it in the reporting on the board's activities relating to this curriculum. curriculum change adopted on October th, 00? Q. Did you play any role in drafting the specific A. Like I said, I have said things at meetings, in language of this statement? meetings. I've said things to reporters outside of A. I don't remember specific language, no. meetings. I mean, it was sort of a constant, a constant Q. Do you recall at least seeing -- that you -- that I would do, because they kept doing A. Oh, I saw it, yes. Could I have made things like this. I mean, they kept saying teaching 0 suggestions? It's possible. But I just don't remember. 0 instead of making aware. They would say creationism Q. Okay. Let me ask you again. Now we have a instead of intelligent design. contentious meeting here on the th with members I mean, it's -- it's -- but, yes, I did. I resigning. Did you read the papers and their coverage remember talking, having a conversation with Joe of this meeting? Maldonado. And it was my understanding through the A. I'm sure I did. conversation that he thought the two things were

4 interchangeable, that creationism and intelligent design This again is hearsay, and if were. he's testifying just as to his understanding, I don't Objection, Your Honor, hearsay. see any relevance as to what his understanding of Mr. MR. GILLEN: All I can say is, he's trying Maldonado's impression is, at least as of this date. to remedy the situation. He's talking to the reporter. MR. GILLEN: It is highly relevant because, He has an understanding of the reporter's view of the from the standpoint of the board, they believed that matter, whether they're separate or the same. That's their position has been mischaracterized. They've been all. asked -- all the witnesses have been asked numerous THE COURT: I think it transcended just his times, did you ever complain, did you ever ask for impression. I think it got into hearsay. I'll sustain corrections, and so on. the objection, and I'll strike what appears to be a Mr. Bonsell has testified that he has, and direct response from the reporter in this case. now what he's, understanding from this request is, it MR. GILLEN: Okay. Thank you, Your Honor. won't be observed because of the reporter's view of the BY MR. GILLEN: matter. Q. Alan, let me ask you, you indicated that you THE COURT: Well, very frankly, he answered spoke with Joe Maldonado about his reporting the question. He answered the question previously, and specifically as it relates to the use of the term I said that it would be stricken -- creationism to describe intelligent design? MR. GILLEN: Right. THE COURT: -- that it was his understanding 0 Q. As a result of that conversation, did you come 0 that Mr. Maldonado viewed the two terms as away with an impression or understanding of how he interchangeable. I said that answer was hearsay and viewed them, whether the same or different? sustained the objection and struck it. You've asked A. My impression is -- almost the same question again, and I'm going to sustain Objection, Your Honor. the objection again because all we're coming back to is, THE COURT: Wait, sir. Hang on. I think, what amounts to, and I understand that you have to try, but I think it's either side door or back door concerning something that maybe we could, you know, put hearsay, and I'll sustain the objection on that basis. on, if it's possible, to put on the website, the Dover It's a bench trial. I heard the testimony. There's no website, so -- just to let -- give the people of Dover a point to double back at this point. Let's move on. little bit of an update of what's going on. MR. GILLEN: Okay. Thank you, Your Honor. Q. This document is dated November th, 00. Let BY MR. GILLEN: me ask you, on the evening that the curriculum change Q. Did you take it upon yourself personally to do was adopted by the board, was there ever any discussion anything else to address the press coverage as you saw? of doing a press release? A. Well, like I said all along, I've talked to A. No, none. numerous, numerous editors of the papers. I have talked Q. Did you have any intention of doing a press to the reporters. I know it got so bad that our release when you voted for the curriculum change? superintendent wouldn't even return calls anymore. A. Not at that time, no. Q. Let me ask you this. Did you direct Dr. Nilsen Q. So why are you providing this document to Dr. to do anything as a result of this problem you Nilsen on November th, 00? perceived? A. There again, because the inaccuracies that was One of the things I said is that, I think put out to the public in our local media. it's necessary to get some sort of press release out to Q. Did you draft the press release or did you direct tell the people what we're actually doing, so they know Rich Nilsen to do so? what we're really doing. A. Well, this one I had sent to him, but they were 0 Q. Let me ask you to look at Defendants' Exhibit. 0 coming up with another press release. This was just A.. sort of a stop gap thing until we got an actual press Q. Do you recognize that document, Alan? release. Q. Let me ask you to look at Defendants' Exhibit Q. What is it?. Do you recognize that document, Alan? A. It's a document that I sent to Dr. Nilsen

5 Q. What is it? involved, that -- because, I believe, at the time I was A. That's the biology curriculum press release from saying, you know, the teachers have been involved in it. the board of directors. Q. Okay. Let me ask you to look at Defendants' Q. Was that prepared by Dr. Nilsen at your request? Exhibit. A.? Q. Okay. Do you recall the press release eliciting Q. Yeah. Do you recognize that document? a response from the faculty? A. Yes, it did. Q. Okay. What is this? Q. With that in mind, I would ask you to look at A. This is a history of biology statement, teacher Defendants' Exhibit. Do you recognize that edits, and some other information that I personally document? wrote down on the bottom that were additions to this. Q. Okay. Those handwritten notations are yours? Q. Do you remember seeing that? A. At the bottom of the paper, yes. Q. But just to be clear, were these put on the Q. What did you understand its thrust to be? document November th or later? A. I guess, basically they're writing a letter to A. This would have been later. Dr. Nilsen objecting on some of the things that are Q. Let me ask you, do you recall the teachers or its being put out there about the most recent press release. union putting out a press release? Q. And what was your reaction to this document? A. I believe they did put out a press release, yes. 0 A. Well, I couldn't believe it, because they've been 0 Q. If you would, look at Defendants' Exhibit. involved all along in the process. Do you recognize that document, Alan? Q. Did you speak to Rich Nilsen about this document? A. I believe so. And -- because I wanted to know, I Q. What is it? wanted to see, okay, sort of get a glimpse of how many A. It's a press release from basically the teachers times or what -- to show that the teachers had been union or the BAEAEA. 0 Q. What was your reaction to that document? Q. And what was your reaction to that document? A. Well, it sort of went back to the other letter. A. Well, again, they must have been reading our I mean, they're saying, has developed, exaggerated it, local media because it says in here about teaching which really, they did help to develop it. intelligent design, and we're not teaching it. Q. Did you agree with the teachers' position, as Q. There's a few steps remaining in this story as articulated in that press release? it's been outlined so far, and I want to ask you about A. No, no. them. Do you understand that Rich Nilsen placed the Of Q. Did you ask anyone to take any action as a result Pandas book in the library? of that press release? A. To take any action? Q. Do you believe that his decision to do so was Q. Yeah. Look again at. Was there anything consistent with the board's curriculum change adopted on that the board or you or the administration did in October th? response to that difference of opinion reflected in A. Sure. They're reference books. these two press releases? Q. Has any member of the school board called for a A. Well, that's why we put this together, to show, movement of those texts from the library? you know, what we were saying was true, that they were involved in this process. Q. Did there come a time when you understood that Q. Okay. Let me ask you to look at Defendants' the teachers had not read the statement that had been Exhibit. Do you have that? drafted as a result of the curriculum change? 0 0 A. Can you say that again? Q. Do you recognize this? Q. Did there come a time when you came to understand that the teachers had not read the statement we looked Q. What is it? at already? A. It is a press release from the Discovery A. Yes, basically that they wouldn't read the Institute. statement.

6 Q. And what was your reaction to that? A. Yes, after we did -- we thought it would be a A. Well, personally, I thought it was clear good idea to, because the press release basically went insubordination. out to the press and onto the website, and we wanted to Q. Did you call for any action? get out something to all of the people in Dover, so A. No, I didn't, because I figured, at this point, they're the ones, it's their school, they need to know. it's, you know, it will be settled here. I thought that because of, you know, the problems of Q. Did you later come to know who read the statement communications with the media, that they needed to have to the students? this press release so they could see exactly what we A. The administration did. were doing. Q. When you voted for the curriculum change on Q. Whose idea was the newsletter? October th, 00, was there any discussion by board A. I believe I came up with the idea of the members of having the administrators read the statement? newsletter, and I believe the board concurred, and the A. Was there any discussion that we wanted them to newsletter was put out. read that? Q. When the board voted to approve the curriculum Q. Yes. change on October th, 00, was there any discussion of preparing a newsletter about the curriculum change? Q. Did any board member direct -- let me ask you, A. No, none at all. did you direct the administration to read the statement? Q. When you voted for the curriculum change on October th, did you intend to issue a newsletter about 0 Q. To your knowledge, did any board member direct 0 the curriculum change? the administrators to read the statement? Q. So what was your purpose in doing that now? Q. Did there come a point at which you directed Dr. A. Again, like I said, to get the actual truth out Nilsen to at least prepare or help prepare a newsletter to the people of Dover. for the district on this issue? Q. Now at some point, did you become aware of a donation of books to Dover that was also linked in some library collection? way to the biology curriculum? A. Yes, yes. Q. As you sit here today, do you know where those Q. And about when was that? books have been placed in the library collection? A. I believe that was the spring of this year. A. That would be the librarian's job. Q. How did the books -- Q. Did there come a time after the donation of the A. Somewhere in that area. books where you became aware that Rich Nilsen had Q. How did the books come to your attention? changed the statement read to students in light of that A. They were -- I guess they were sent to the school donation? district, and probably the administration let us know. Q. Did you ask who donated the books? Q. When you learned of that, did you think his A. Not really. I mean, they told me it came from a change to the statement was consistent with the purpose group, but I didn't ask who. of the board's curriculum change adopted on October Q. Did you review the books? th? A. I looked at the books. Q. Why did you do that? Q. And why is that? A. Just to make sure they weren't, I mean, A. I have no -- I mean -- wait a minute. Ask the pornographic or something that wouldn't be something question again, please. that should be put in the library or used. Q. Well, why? If you thought it was acceptable for 0 Q. Well, I mean, you've referenced some concerns 0 him to do that, why? about the books. Did it strike you as a little odd at A. Acceptable for him to change? the time the way they were donated, the way they Q. Change the statement. Why? What was your point? arrived? Why did you see that as consistent? A. Yeah, they just sort of came on our door step. A. Because we had more books and more things on the Q. Did the board approve adding the books to the subject, more literature, more books on the subject.

7 And he changed it. And I didn't see a problem with a lot of things. Some of the things, our test scores that. More references. More material. are up. You know, we've instituted full-day Q. All right. As we're wrapping up here, I know kindergarten, the only school district in York County you're engaged in this litigation, but do you feel that that has that. your service on the board has been a service in which We went back to do remediation so that we try to you've tried to promote and have enjoyed some success in get all the kids at the same place, I believe, by like promoting the interest of the Dover community? third place, because we don't want any of our children Yes, I do believe that. to be left behind. As far as taxes, we're the only Q. And can you just explain briefly why you have school district this year that doesn't have a tax enjoyed some success? increase. Your Honor, objection, So we looked at everything. Our th grade, our relevance. th grade test scores. Five years ago in the year 000, MR. GILLEN: I'm trying to demonstrate that we were th out of schools. And this year, we're he has, throughout his tenure, acted as a board member number in the county with our test scores. So we -- I to serve the best interest of the community he serves by think, I believe, not for a pat on the back or anything his -- like that, but I believe that's what we came here for, THE COURT: I'll allow some latitude. It to make Dover the best it can be. goes to weight. It's a bench trial. I'm going to hear And this isn't -- I mean, there's a lot of other the answer because we got to keep moving here. So I'll things that Dover can be proud of. 0 overrule the objection. 0 Q. Did you see your participation in the board's BY MR. GILLEN: distributions on this curriculum change as part of that Q. Just briefly, Alan, as the judge said? same goal? A. Just quickly. Some of the things that we've done over the last four years. I mean, we tried to work Q. As a board member, ever since you sat on the together as a team, and we have been successful in doing board, have you ever taken any step that you thought would lead to the teaching of creationism in the high A. Absolutely not. school at Dover? Q. Do you have any objection to her learning about A. None whatsoever. evolutionary theory in biology? Q. Have you ever tried to take any step to prevent A. No, none whatsoever. the teaching of evolutionary theory? MR. GILLEN: I have no further questions. A. None. THE COURT: All right, Mr. Gillen. Thank Q. In this 00 period, when the science text, more you. Cross-examine, Mr. Harvey. specifically the biology text, proposed by the teachers Just one minute, Your Honor, were up for purchase, did you ever try and obstruct the while I get some materials. purchase of the text they recommended? THE COURT: Take the time you need. Your Honor, may I approach the Q. You mentioned your daughter earlier. Is she a witness and hand him some documents? student at Dover High School now? THE COURT: You may. What book are you in, A. Yes, she's in th grade. Mr. Harvey? Q. Is she taking biology? Your Honor, I'm not in a book. That's a special notebook we made up. Q. And do you have an understanding concerning THE COURT: Are you going to put them up on whether she'll be taught evolutionary theory in biology? the -- Yes, sir. 0 Q. What's your understanding? 0 THE COURT: That's fine. A. My understanding is, she'll be taught CROSS EXAMINATION evolutionary theory, the micro evolution theory, in BY class. Q. Mr. Bonsell, I've just handed you a notebook of Q. Are you going to tell your daughter to opt out of various exhibits we may refer to your testimony today, this section dealing with evolution? and I've given you a copy of your deposition transcript

8 0 that was taken on January the rd, 00, and a copy of there for $0.00 that's been marked P-0, correct? your deposition transcript that was taken on April the A. That, I couldn't tell you. I don't know. th, 00. Do you have those in front of you? Q. Okay. But he definitely gave you a check, right? A. Yes, I do. A. Oh, yes, uh-huh. Q. You recall being deposed on those dates, January Q. And he told you that these were donations that he the rd of 00 and April the th of 00? had received? That's what you told us in your direct exam, right? Q. You were here for Mr. Buckingham's testimony last week, weren't you? Q. Did he tell you that these donations came from A. Not all of it, no. people at his church? Q. I thought I saw you in the room. And I think you were in the room when he testified about the donation, Q. He didn't tell you that, is that correct? donations that were given to him at his church in the amount of $0.00. Were you here during that part? Q. Now, do you remember former board member Larry A. Yes, I did hear that. Snook asking about the source of the donation of Pandas Q. And he testified about a check. And I'd like to at a board meeting in November 00? show you the check. It's number P-0 in your notebook. A. I believe I do remember that. And Matt will bring it up on the screen. Q. And Mr. Snook specifically asked the board to say A. P-0? who gave the Pandas to the school district, correct? 0 Q. Yes, sir. 0 A. I believe that's what he said. Q. And nobody from the board provided him with any Q. And today, you told us in your direct examination information, either that time or any other time, isn't that Mr. Buckingham had given you a check, right? that right? A. Not that I recall. Q. And as a matter of fact, that is the check right Q. You didn't provide him with any information, did you? You certainly know that? A. That I had a conversation with him? Q. Yes, that you spoke -- that you spoke to Mr. Q. And you recall, and we just discussed, your Buckingham about the donation of this check? deposition was taken on January the rd. Did you know A. I don't -- I don't believe so. that it was taken that day so that the Plaintiffs -- it Q. Well, let's just take a moment to look at your was taken pursuant to court order -- so that the deposition. Plaintiffs could decide whether or not to move for a temporary retraining order. Did you know that at the Q. Let's go to your January rd deposition. time? A. January rd, all right. A. I knew they were taking depositions for a Q. Yes, sir. Page, beginning on line. And it particular reason. covers a few pages, and so we're going to go through it. Q. Did you know it was for that particular reason? I apologize if it's lengthy, but I think it's important. A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat that? A. All right. Q. So the Plaintiffs could decide whether to seek a Q. Mr. Rothschild asked you the following questions temporary restraining order to prevent the board from and you gave the following answers: Question, Are you implementing its policy in January of 00? aware that 0 copies of this book were donated to the A. I believe so. school district? Answer, Yes. Question, Who donated Q. And when Mr. Rothschild at that deposition asked those books to the school district? Answer, I don't you about the donation of the books to the school know. Question, You don't know? Answer, No, I don't. 0 district, you didn't tell him that you had received any 0 The question again? check from Mr. Buckingham, did you? Question, Who donated those books? Answer, Who A. I don't believe so. donated the books? They wanted to remain anonymous. Q. And you didn't tell him that you had a Question, Do you know who donated them? Answer, Do I conversation with Mr. Buckingham on that subject, did know the people that donated them? Question, Yes. you? Answer, I don't know -- I don't know all the people that

9 donated them, no. Question, Did your father say anything to you Question, Do you know any of the people who about his intention to donate books or his offer to donated them? Answer, One. Question, Who was that? donate books to the school district? Answer, I'm sure Answer, Donald Bonsell. Question, Who is that? Answer, there was something said. He is my father. Question, Do you know the names of Question, This morning I took the deposition of anybody else who donated these books? Answer, No. School Superintendent Nilsen. He testified that you Question, How did you become aware that these communicated him to the fact -- to him the fact of this individuals, including your father, intended to donate offer to donate the Pandas books. Is that accurate? the books? Answer, Repeat that again. Answer, That I was going to donate the books? Question, Question, How did you become aware that your That you communicated to Mr. Nilsen that the offer was father, as well as other individuals, intended to donate being made. Answer, That is what I am saying. I don't the Pandas book to the district? Answer, I believe the remember exactly how it came about. That's what I am offer was made after there was complaints of using saying. school district money. Question, Using school district Question, Did you communicate to Mr. Nilsen that money for what? Answer, To buy the books, I believe. an offer was being made to donate Pandas to the Question, Who was the offer made to? Answer, I'm not district? Answer, I'm not sure. Question, Do you know sure. where the Pandas book were purchased from? Answer, No. Question, When was the first time you became I mean, no. Question, Did you contribute any money to aware of the offer to donate the books? Answer, After the purchase of the Pandas books that were donated to 0 the complaint, the complaint from -- I believe it was 0 the school district? Answer, No. from Barrie Callahan. Question, How did you become Question, Did you suggest to your father that he aware of the offer? Answer, I'm not sure of the exact donate the books? Answer, No. Question, did you way I became aware of it. Question, Did your father say request that he donate the books? Answer, No. anything to you? Then there's an objection, and the Question, Was the first time you heard anything about a question was restated. donation when your father told you he intended to do it? Answer, Repeat that again. Q. And you understood that he was seeking that Question, Was the first time you became aware of specific information, not that specific information, but any possible donation when you father told you he that he asked you questions that should have called for intended to do it? Answer, Well, he wasn't -- I mean, that information, isn't that correct? as far as I know, he wasn't the only person. Question, A. No, I don't agree with that. You don't know who the other people are? Answer, I Q. Mr. Bonsell, he asked you, Question, The only don't know who the other people are. person you could have spoken to about the books was your Question, You have never spoken to anybody else father, correct? Answer, Yes, as far as donating the who was involved with the donation? Answer, I don't books. I guess they offered to pay for the books and know the other people. Question, The only person you they got the books and gave them to the school district. could have spoken to about the books was your father, Question, They offered to whom? How was the offer correct? Answer, Yes, as far as donating the books. I communicated? Answer, That is what I'm saying. I'm guess they offered to pay for the books, and they got trying to think of exactly how it was done. I don't the books, and gave them to the school district. remember exactly how it was said or done. Question, They offered to whom? How was the And you didn't provide -- that was the question offer communicated? Answer, That is what I am saying. and answer. And you did not provide Mr. Rothschild with I am trying to think about exactly how it was done. I any information or tell him in any way that you had don't remember exactly how it was said or done. received a check from Mr. Buckingham, correct? Was that your testimony on January the rd, 00, A. I didn't receive -- that I didn't receive a check 0 Mr. Bonsell? 0 from Mr. Buckingham? No, I already said, I haven't -- I A. Yes, it was. did not tell him about me receiving a check from Mr. Q. And you didn't mention anything to Mr. Rothschild Buckingham. But I still, you know, don't believe I about getting a donation, a check from Mr. Buckingham misspoke. for $0.00, did you? Q. Well, Mr. Bonsell -- A. No, I didn't. A. I mean, in my opinion.

10 Q. Today, you told us that you recall Mrs. Q. Go to your January rd deposition at page 0, Buckingham speaking at a board meeting in June of 00, please. correct? Do you remember that? A. Page 0. Okay. A. In June 00? Q. And line 0. And he's referring to a news Q. Yes. article, which we're going to look at in a minute. Question, After that, there are remarks attributed to Q. And you said that she went on for a great length, Mr. Buckingham's wife, Charlotte, on the subject of and you felt uncomfortable gaveling her down because she creationism. Do you remember her saying what is was the wife of a board member, correct? attributed to her in the article? Answer, I remember A. Oh, Mrs. Buckingham, okay. Mrs. Buckingham coming up and talking at public comment, Q. Yes, Mrs. Buckingham. but I don't remember what she said. Wasn't that your A. Yes, yes. testimony on January the rd? Q. And you said that she probably mentioned A. On January the rd, it was. creationism, isn't that right? Q. And your testimony is something different today, A. It's very possible. isn't it? Q. And you testified today that her comments were A. Only to the extent that I remember more of what very religious in nature, isn't that correct? she said then versus now. I mean, I did say that she A. What I can remember now, yes. did -- I remember her coming up and talking. Q. Now Mr. Rothschild asked you about this at your Q. Well, let's take a look at what has been marked 0 deposition on January rd, 00, and you didn't mention 0 as P-. this either, did you? A. P-. A. I don't know. Q. That is a June th article, June th, 00, Q. Do you remember Mr. Rothschild asking you about article from the York Dispatch written by Heidi that? Bernhard-Bubb, isn't that correct? A. I don't remember it, no, but -- 0 Q. Now you actually were provided that article and asked to look at the second page, the seventh full Q. And P- is a June th article in the York paragraph, the one that says -- Matt, could you Dispatch by Heidi Bernhard-Bubb. In fact, it's that highlight it, the one that begins, his remarks. The one same article, isn't that correct? that says, His remarks were echoed by his wife, A. It looks like it is. Charlotte Buckingham, who said that teaching evolution Q. And then if you look on page 0, that's what he was in direct opposition to God's teaching, and that the was referring to when he says, on line 0, after that, people of Dover could not in good conscience allow the there are remarks attributed to Mr. Buckingham's wife, district to teach anything about creationism, close Charlotte, on the subject of creationism. Do you see quote. Do you see that? that? A. Yes, I do. Which line is that again? Q. That's the specific statement that you were asked Q. That is on page 0, line 0. to look at your deposition by Mr. Rothschild before you A. Page 0? gave the testimony we just discussed, isn't that Q. Yes, page 0, line 0. correct? A. Page 0, line 0. Okay. A. That, I don't know. Q. That's the exact same article, P-, that you Q. Well, take a look again at the deposition. And, were asked to look at your deposition when you gave that if you begin, and I'm not going to -- if you begin on testimony that you didn't recall Mrs. Buckingham saying page? anything to that effect or you didn't remember what she 0 A. Page? 0 said, correct? Q. Yes. In January, that's what I said, yes. Q. But the question is, you looked at P-, that Q. You see on line, he's asking you to turn to the exact same article, and you read the language that I June th article in the York Dispatch by Heidi read to you from P- about what Mrs. Buckingham said at Bernhard-Bubb, isn't that correct? the June meeting, and that's what you were looking at,

11 and you read just before you gave that testimony at your A. I'm not sure if he said them or not. Okay. deposition, isn't that correct? That's on? A. So you're saying, page 0, you asked me to look Q. Right. That was your testimony, right, on page at this page? 0. Q. Yes, sir. A. All right. A. And where does that -- I don't see that on page Q. Then the very next thing he says is that, after 0. I see the question, what we already went over a that, there were remarks attributed to Mr. Buckingham's minute or two ago, but you're saying I was looking at wife on the subject of creationism. Do you see that? this page when -- A. Yes, I do. Q. Yes, yes, if you look again. Let's go through Q. Now if you go back to P-, and you look at the this. If you go to page -- seventh full paragraph, where it's talking about the A. Oh, back to. Okay. Continues on through statements by Charlotte Buckingham, all right, do you there? see that? Q. That's right. A. Oh, okay. Q. If you see the statement, just before that in the Q. He's asking you a whole series of questions about article is about a liberal agenda chipping away at the this article. rights of Christians in this country? I see that. Q. Then if you go to page 0, he says, now this is Q. Okay. Now what I'm asking you is, P- and 0 on line, after that, there is a statement attributed 0 specifically that statement, seventh full paragraph on to Mr. Buckingham that the liberal agenda was chipping the second page, that's the statement that you looked at away at the rights of Christians in this country. Do your deposition just before you told Mr. Rothschild that you know if he made that statement? Answer, I'm not you couldn't remember anything that Mrs. Buckingham said sure if he said that or not. That was your testimony, at the meeting, isn't that right, Mr. Bonsell? right? Correct, that was your testimony on that date? A. That's what I said in January, yes. Q. And that was P-, you were looking at that time would you bring it up, P-, and highlight the first and in that specific statement? second items under Mr. Bonsell's name there. A. That's what it appears to be, from what you're A. I'm sorry. Which number is this? saying. I guess there is no other articles on that Q. P-. date, so I would imagine that's it. A. Oh, okay. So just look on the screen here. All Q. Mr. Bonsell, you testified this morning about right. when you ran for the school board in 00. Do you Q. If you would like, you can look on the screen or recall that? you can look at the exhibit. A. All right. Q. And is it your testimony that you didn't bring up Q. You talked about this morning, this same document creationism or school prayer at any time during the with a different number on it from your counsel. And is course of running for that office? it your testimony that you did not say or bring up the A. That was nothing that we -- that was nothing that subject of creationism at that school board retreat on we ran on, no. January the th of 00? Q. And my question is, you didn't bring it up at any A. Did I say I didn't bring it up? time during the course of running for office, is that Q. I'm asking you now. Did you mention creationism correct? at that school board retreat? A. In the course of running for office? I don't A. As my testimony earlier, I must have. I must believe. No. Say that question again. have brought it up at the board retreat. 0 Q. I'd like to know whether at any time when you ran 0 Q. Do you remember bringing it up? for school board in 00, you brought up the subject of A. I don't remember. There again, I don't remember creationism or school prayer? what I wish I did, but I don't remember what I said A. In my running for school board, I don't believe I about it, no. did. Not that I recall. Q. I'm just asking not whether you remember what you Q. We looked at this morning a document. Matt, said about it. Do you remember bringing it up at all at

12 that school board retreat? paragraph on, please. I'm sorry. and. That's A. I don't remember bringing it up. Like I said, it. You were here for the opening statement in this Dr. Nilsen wrote it down, so I must have said it. case, weren't you? Q. If you could take a moment to look at what has A. I believe so, yes. Yes. been marked as P-. Matt, would you please bring that Q. And Mr. Gillen said the following words: Alan up? Focus on the third item under Mr. Bonsell's name. Bonsell is a perfect example. He came to the board Now, Mr. Bonsell, do you see that, the third item without any background in education of the law, just a under your name, under what's been marked as P-, is sincere desire to serve his fellow citizens. creationism again? By virtue of his personal reading, he was aware A. Yes, sir. of intelligent design theory, and that 00 or so Q. Do you remember bringing that up at the school scientists had signed a statement indicating that board retreat in March of 00? biologists were exaggerating claims for the theory. He A. Again, I don't really remember any of this or, had read about the famous Piltdown man hoax. He had an from my previous testimony, I believe I said, I don't interest in creationism. He wondered whether it could remember this or any of the other subjects from this or be discussed in the classroom. Do you see those words? other board retreats. A. Yes, I do. Q. Do you remember that you had an interest in Q. Now is it true that you had an interest in creationism when you were a member of the school board creationism, as your counsel said in his opening in 00 and 00? statement? 0 A. Did I have an interest in it? It might have been 0 A. Well, I have said it twice at two board retreats, a question about it. But I don't know -- maybe you need so it must be. That's why I said, it could be as a to be more specific. question in that, as just like I have testified about Q. Sure. Matt, would you please bring up Mr. prayer. Gillen's opening statement at page? The -- no, the Q. Well, let's just put aside what was said at the last full paragraph on page and the first full board retreats and focus on what you remember about your own self during that time period. Do you remember that an interest at all in creationism? you had an interest in creationism with respect to the Q. Yes, sir. And the question is more specific. Dover public schools in 00 and 00? Actually, it's in 00 and 00, whether you had any A. Did I have an interest in creationism in the interest in creationism that related to the Dover public schools? I mean, what do you mean by that? schools? Q. I mean, did you think to yourself, gosh, I'd like A. Probably. to have creationism in the schools or I wonder if I Q. That you can recall? could have creationism in the school or what would it be A. Probably. like if we had creationism in the schools or any Q. Whether it was said or not, whether it was just thoughts whatsoever, Mr. Bonsell? in your head and never said? A. I don't think in that respect. I think more in A. Probably. the respect of, you know, is it taught? Is it not? Is Q. Now I'd like you to take a look at what has been it even mentioned? In what -- it's sort of like, you marked as P-. And we'll bring that up on the board. know, in what way does Dover look at this, if they do? This document is a memo from Trudy Peterman to Mr. I mean, I could see something like that. Baksa, Mr. Reading, and Mrs. Spahr, isn't that correct? Q. I'm not asking you if you could see something A. Do you have a number I can look at? It's awful like that. I'm asking you if you have a memory of small. wanting to know how the Dover schools dealt with Q. It's P- in your notebook. That might be easier creationism? for you to look at. Do you have that in front of you? 0 A. That could be. 0 A. Yes, I do. Q. That could be or that is? Either you remember or Q. That's dated April the st, 00? you don't, Mr. Bonsell. A. April st, 00, yes. A. Did I ever have an -- could you ask that one more Q. Now if you'd look at the last sentence of the time? I'm trying to get an understanding of where first paragraph. Matt, would you highlight that, you're coming from with the question. Did I ever have please? That says, Mr. Baksa further stated to Mrs.

13 0 Spahr on March, 00, that this board member wanted Q. Sure. Go to the second -- your second deposition 0 percent of the topic of evolution to involve the on April the th. teaching of creationism. Do you see that? A. April th one. A. I see that. Q. Beginning on page. Q. And the memo doesn't identify who the board A. I'm sorry? member is, who wanted it, correct? Q. Beginning on page, line 0. A. Not in that sentence, no. A. Line 0. Q. It doesn't actually anywhere in that whole Q. He asked you, and I'll -- did he not -- and my paragraph or the letter, isn't that correct? question to you is, Did you ever, did you personally A. I didn't -- do you want me to read it? ever express that to Mr. Baksa, that you wanted 0 Q. Well, look at the first paragraph. percent of the topic of evolution to involve the teaching of creationism? Answer, No. Q. All right. That doesn't identify who the board Question, Did you ever express to Mr. Baksa or in member was who wanted this? Mr. Baksa's presence that you wanted 0 percent of No, it doesn't. something else to be taught along with the topic of Q. Right. Now Mr. Rothschild asked you about this evolution? Answer, No, I don't believe so. at your deposition on April, and he showed you P-, Do you see that? which we just looked at, which is one of the documents A. Yes, I do. that says creationism next to your name. Excuse me. He Q. That was your testimony on that date, right? 0 didn't -- not -- it's P- in this document. I'm sorry. 0 He showed you this document at your deposition, and he Q. Mr. Bonsell, that was your testimony on that asked if you recalled advocating the teaching of date? something 0/0 with evolution in or around this time, A. Yes, yes. April, 00. Do you recall that? Q. Now that was before the Defendants produced A. Can you show it to me, please? either P- or P-, the documents that we just looked at that have creationism next to your name. They bring that up, Matt? came -- they were produced later in the course of the A. P-? litigation, you know that, right? Q. Right. A. P-? Q. And P-? Q. All right. Now you actually looked at a copy of A. Oh, the ones you just -- oh, okay, the retreat, that document earlier in your direct examination without yes. the handwriting on it, isn't that right? Q. Yes, they were produced after your deposition on April the th, so we couldn't show them to you on that Q. Now the handwriting, if you look on the date, right? right-hand side, are two-thirds of the way up or maybe just a little more than two-thirds of the way up, it has Q. And your deposition also occurred -- your handwritten, Alan. Am history. Founding fathers. deposition was on, excuse me, the board retreat in March 0/0 evolution versus creationism. And then there's an of 00 was actually on March the th, right? We can arrow that says, does not believe in evolution. Would see that by looking at P-? you agree that's what that handwriting says? A. March th? A. Yes, it does. Q. Right. Q. So I've asked you to look at these various documents, because we didn't have them when we took your Q. And that was less than a week before the date of deposition on April the th. Now looking at these 0 the Trudy Peterman memo, which was April, right? 0 documents, can you tell us, were you the board member who wanted to teach evolution, 0/0 evolution, Q. Isn't that correct? creationism, in or around March of 00? A. April st, that would be correct. A. No, I don't believe I am. Q. And your deposition was taken before Mrs. Q. In fact, to the best of your recollection, you've Callahan located what has been marked as P-. Can you never talked about creationism at any school board