Oral History Collection

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1 Transcript: J. CARL DAY Interview Date: 8/15/1996 Interview Conducted By: BOB PORTER Oral History Collection The following interview is part of the Oral History Collection of The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza. The Oral History Collection preserves personal recollections regarding the life, times, death, and legacy of President John F. Kennedy. The interviews also provide insight into the cultural history of Dallas and the impact of the assassination. The Oral History Collection includes the memories of eyewitnesses, local law enforcement, local and national members of the media, civic and political leaders, White House officials, Kennedy family acquaintances, Dallas schoolchildren, filmmakers and researchers, Parkland Hospital personnel, and others related to the events of November 22, These candid and informal interviews provide future generations with a tangible link to the past. All oral history videos and audio recordings are available for research and may be viewed by appointment in the Museum s Research Center. Transcripts of select oral histories are available upon request for research. As an ongoing program, the Museum continues to actively record and transcribe oral history interviews year round. For more information, to schedule a research appointment, to request a research transcript, or to volunteer for an interview, please contact Stephen Fagin, Oral Historian, at OralHistory@jfk.org or call , ext This transcript is unrevised and may contain typographical errors. This transcript is intended for personal research and reference only. Any further reproduction or distribution of any portion of this transcript must be specifically authorized in writing by The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza. To request citation information, contact OralHistory@jfk.org. Please include contact information, project title, reason for citation, and approximate number of lines to be cited.

2 2 Oral History Interview J. Carl Day August 15, 1996 By Bob Porter Researchers Note: Mr. Day recorded a follow-up interview on 7/11/2006. Researchers Note: Mr. Day passed away on 10/16/2008. (0:00:00) Today is August 25 th, Today we are interviewing Mr. Carl Day, formerly with the Dallas Police Department. And this is Bob Porter, and this interview is part of the Oral History Project for the Dallas County Historical Foundation, and Mr. Day, we thank you for coming into the museum today to do the interview. And we ll begin if you ll just give me your full name and date and place of birth, and we ll go from there. My name is John Carl Day. I m commonly known as Carl Day. I was born January 31 st, 1914, in Dallas. I ve lived here all my life. Well, what was Dallas like as a youngster? That kind of goes back a ways. What about growing up in Dallas? What part of Dallas did you live in? of Oak Cliff. I lived in what they called Trinity Heights. It s in the southern part Yes. Of course, at that time, there were a lot of horses and wagons still. I remember the delivery men coming by in a wagon instead of trucks. Not many of the streets were paved out in our area. Usually, you had to wade mud up to your ankles if it rained. Kind of a rural atmosphere it seemed like. Yes, it was kind of far out. Actually, the area was not inside the city limits at that time. Uh-huh. Well, where did you go to school?

3 3 I went to grade school, Trinity Heights Grammar School, and then I went to Sunset High School. OK which is also in the Oak Cliff area. Yes. Yeah. When did you get interested in law enforcement? Oh, just kind of stumbled into it. I had never had much thought about being a police officer when I was a kid you know, no family connections. But during the Depression years, 29 on up to 40, it was a little bit hard to get work of any kind. What you did was pretty low paying, and sometimes it didn t last long. I was not particularly trained in any area. I was working at a machinery company very near here, down on the West End Fairbanks Morse Company the building is still down there at Market and Corbin Street in the West End area. And at that time, the police department paid about twice what I was making in the machinery company, and the advances there that I could have made seem to be traveling and I wasn t much interested in being a traveling salesman, so I took this civil service examination to go to work for the City of Dallas in Were you married then? No, I was single at that time. And at the I happened to place on the civil service list both for the fire department and the police department. I had been raised around the fire station out there in Trinity Heights and really thought I wanted to go there. But the police department opportunity came up first, and so I went ahead and took it. That was on October 4, I was age 26 at that time. So I went to work there. I liked it after I got into it. Different from anything I ever been around. And it seemed I fit fairly well there, so I stayed there until Of course, the war had started by then. I was still single, so it was obvious I was going to have to go into the service somewhere. So I chose to go into the Navy before they drafted me and put me where they wanted me. I was lucky in that there was a Naval Air Station here in Dallas that was just expanding, expanding for a spell out there faster than they could train them at the regular Naval Training Stations. There was 7 of us from the police department that went in on the same day. I believe it was June 22, And we were assigned to the Naval Air Station out here in Dallas. I didn t even leave home. Well they didn t have barracks for us, so they gave us what they called subsistence and you provided your own lodging. So I didn t even leave home to go into the Navy. That s very unusual. (0:05:27) I was in the Navy for three and a half years. After about a year at the Naval Air Station, they established a Shore Patrol Unit in most of the areas of the larger cities, under the 8 th Naval District, which was attached to the Naval Headquarters in New Orleans. They moved me on to shore patrol, which was tantamount to being

4 4 transferred to New Orleans. But New Orleans moved me downtown here in Dallas and put me on Shore Patrol. So, I served the rest of my time in the Navy here in Dallas on Shore Patrol. I didn t see a ship and not many airplanes. And never got near an ocean? I was I was lucky in one way in not having to even leave town. By that time I had married too, and fortunately we just stayed here at home. So when you got out of service, did you go directly back into the Dallas Police Department? Yes, I went directly back into the police department in January Same department? What department were you working in then? Well, yes, I was in the, of course everyone starts out as patrol, or did at that time, in uniform and patrol car. And that s where I was assigned when I went back. I hadn t been there long, though, and they put me in the dispatcher s office. And a few months later, they had openings in the detective office. At that time, and it still is, the civil service promotion, you had to take examination, and the higher on the list were assigned to that duty. I happened to place high enough that I made detective. Of course, I went in plain clothes then. So actually in my uniform days, I didn t serve oh probably less than two years, but I had credit of course for three years in the Navy, which was connected with time I was placed in the burglary division, worked there awhile, then I was assigned to homicide division. And there I worked a year, I worked under Captain Fritz, who was in charge of the homicide division. Well at that time, if you went to court, even though you were working nights, you still went to court and you worked that night. There was no such thing as overtime or time off. You were on duty 24 hours a day. If you were unfortunate enough to be off when these long murder cases came on or something, why you spent all day in court, and all night in a squad car trying to stay awake. So in 1948, they had an opening here in the Identification Bureau. Well at that that time, they did not have a midnight shift, just worked mornings, 7-3 in daytime, and 3-11 at night. Well that sounded pretty good getting away from those nights and having to go to court so much. I didn t have to go to court as much there, and I took the examination and again, was fortunate enough that I was put in the Identification Bureau, which later was developed into the Crime Lab. And I stayed there for 28 years. I wasn t moved out; I went into the Fingerprint Division. The Identification Division did what, what does that cover? (0:09:41) That of course was keeping the criminal records, fingerprinting the prisoners, and at that time, we made a few calls out to the crime scene to check for fingerprints and take pictures and collect physical evidence. Did very little of it up until about 1954 when they started hitting pretty heavy on crime scene search they called it.

5 5 That was going to the scene of the crime, checking fingerprints, taking photos, and collecting and preserving physical evidence. I was promoted to lieutenant in 54. division. Well, that made you head of the Crime Lab at that time? Yes, I was the immediate supervisor of the crime scene search How many people did you have working for you, do you recall? There was twelve that made the outside calls. I had concurrent jurisdiction over that with another lieutenant at the identification site, which had to do with fingerprinting the prisoners. But there was twelve of us that was responsible for the outside calls or the crime scene. At that time, they referred to us as the Crime Lab. But I don t know just when it was, but they finally established the crime lab, really an actual crime lab at Parkland Hospital. Dallas Forensic Sciences or something, I forget what it is right now. And they took over the homicides - they came out to the scene of the crime, and we no longer had to examine the bodies and get them to Parkland, where they had a medical examiner. He wasn t over the crime lab, per se, but we referred At that time they had a Justice of the Peace system. The Justice of the Peace acted as a coroner. Then they established the, let s see, I guess, what d they call it, the crime lab took over the duties of the coroner, in some of the larger cities, and the doctor in charge of it. And his man answered the calls to the crime scenes where we had a body. Of course if there was a question as to whether the body was still alive, we didn t wait for them; we rushed it on to the hospital. And if the person died, they took over out there. But if it was obvious that the person was deceased, we checked the crime scene, took photos, but we didn t examine the body or move it in any way. We let them take over there. And that was the situation in 1963, when the president was assassinated here. Before we get into that, let s and we re talking about, say, the late 1950s. Some people, not police related, in some of the interviews recall that Dallas in that time period as being kind of a small town-big city or something not what it is in the 1990s. How was the police department in those days, how would you describe the police department in those days? Did the department, was it I think, it tried to keep up to date at that time. It tried to keep up the latest developments in making investigations, and take advantage of any laboratory work or chemical or physical examination of evidence. Our job was to collect that evidence, I mean get it to the laboratory. We didn t try to examine it ourselves, using microscopes or examine the bodies or anything like that. That was left up to the medical examiner. That s what they called it then - the medical examiner s office. From 54 on up to the early 60s when they established the medical examiner, we kind of worked with them as well as we could. It was a learning process, and a developing process, both here and in other cities. They didn t have the medical examiner, they still used the old Justice of the Peace. And they still do that in the smaller counties now. The Justice of the Peace is the coroner he declares the body dead. In the larger cities, where they have the

6 6 medical examiner, the medical examiner is the one that determines whether it was a murder or natural death or whatever. Well, getting into say, 1963, and the visit of President Kennedy to Dallas. There had been some widely publicized incidents in the city. I'm thinking about Adlai Stevenson and some demonstrators when he was here a month or so before that. There was some political turmoil in the city. Do you remember that affecting the police department in particular? (0:16:00) No. It had no affect on the police department that I could see. Our job, of course, was to preserve law and order. If there was demonstrations that got out of hand, we were called on to take over and try to prevent any disturbances. As far as demonstrations was concerned, it wasn t our job to keep people from peaceful demonstration. Nor was it our job to protect the president, that was not a police function; that s a Secret Service duty. It s there job to protect the president or any other important figures that were connected with the government. When the president did come to town, it wasn t our job to tell him where he could go or what he could do. The Secret Service got with us, or with the chief of police, and told the police chief what they needed. We tried to provide all their backup they needed. But as far as protection of the president, it was not a police function. This was not just for President Kennedy this would be any time the president came to town? Any time a president visited, this would be the role the police would play? Yes. Any time we had other important people come in, oh, Admiral Nimitz and other people like that. They had their own protective services, especially the president. I think other presidents had visited here. Secret Service job was to protect the president. Our role was simply assist them in any way we could. Do you remember what you, just as an individual, thought when you heard President Kennedy was coming to town? Did it have any particular significance to you? No, I didn t particularly think much about it. Of course, it s always an exciting event when the president comes to town. You have a lot of demonstrations most of the time, some agree and some don t agree with any of them that come in. But we, we knew we had our hands full in trying to control the crowds and so forth. Do you remember any conversations, say within the department, in the rank-and-file, talking about it? (touching Chief Jesse Curry s book, JFK Assassination File) No, not in the rank and file. Now Chief Curry, he was concerned because of learned this in his book, he was conferred with by the Secret Service, told what they needed, and tried to provide traffic control and the route he was taking and so forth, secure it as well as he

7 7 could. But it wasn't a police function to know who is in every building, whether there s a dangerous person in town trying to harm the president or not; it just wasn t our function. Well, that day, I would assume that the Crime Lab, that s where you were when the parade took place, wasn t it? You were not out with the people who were covering were you? (0:20:00) No, that s primarily a uniformed officer s job. I was in the Identification Bureau or the Crime Scene Search Unit, or whatever you want to call it, at the City Hall. Our headquarters were there. And so Do you remember what you were doing that day? Was it a busy day for you otherwise? the City Hall No, it was just a routine day. The parade did happen to come by At Harwood and Main? Harwood and Main. I incidentally, when that was first set up, the president was supposed to go directly, if I m correct, was supposed to go directly from Love Field to the, uh Trade Mart. Trade Mart. It was only 2, 3, or 4 days before he came in that politics, I guess, worked, started working, and they wanted him to parade through town on the way out there, so that is the reason he came through town. I guess you would call it a political thing. This may be a little bit off the subject, but there s been people suggested or written something similar in their books that Oswald was placed in that building, because the president was coming by there and he had a chance to shoot him. Well, no one knew that he was coming by that building at the time that Oswald went to work in the School Book Depository; he d been there a month or two. To the best of my knowledge, there was no parade planned, or no one knew that a parade was going to go by this building. But getting back to where I was when it happened, the parade came by there, oh, sometime before one o clock. Of course the employees at my office wanted to see the parade as it came by the building. I, we were on the fourth floor, and the way that building s constructed, you can t see the ground from the fourth floor windows. So they all took off to the third floor. I just stayed in the office, to take care of the office. I didn t even go to the window because I would have to leave the office and go to another floor. And as the parade passed, I guess it had been 5 or 10 minutes, and we were still in the office when we got a call from the police dispatcher that he d been shot, and we were sent there. They called me in on the crime scene to search it out at the scene of the shooting. So, do you remember your reaction when that call came in?

8 8 Well, it was just a reaction you would take with any shooting; of course it s going to be a little more notoriety to it. The president s shot at, but I didn t know how bad he was hurt or anything; just the president had been shot. And there was two of us in the office at the time; the rest of them were out on other calls. A man named Studebaker was one of the crime scene police officers. And I got in the car and came down here, to the School Book Depository were the shooting occurred. What did you bring with you? Our usual equipment -- cameras and little boxes that we carried in our kits to collect evidence; fingerprint equipment to check for fingerprints. And so do you remember the scene coming into Dealey Plaza here, in front of the building? Yes. Of course it was quite a turmoil all around the building. I parked up on the sidewalk across the street here at Houston and Elm. The only place I could find to park. And they directed me to the sixth floor. At that time they had determined the shots had been fired there. In that area. This was about, do you remember what time? Well, as I remember, it was around one The shooting was, say, at 12:30. So it was a little later. I thought it was around one o clock. Well, as I remember it was some 20, 25 minutes after the shooting we drove, got here from City Hall, it s about 12 blocks up with a little bit of traffic. So when you came into the entrance of the building, they directed you to the sixth floor? Yes. And when you got off that elevator, then it was just an old freight elevator kind of thing, somebody met you there and took you over to the southeast corner window? <There is about a minute of technical problems in which Carl accidentally turns off his microphone which is immediately corrected by Bob> At the front door, we came in the front door, and we had to go up to the second floor. If I remember right, the offices were on the second floor. We went up there, then we were directed on back to the northwest corner where the stairs were, and we went on up there to the sixth floor.

9 9 You took the stairway, okay. Well, I remember we came up the stairs. There was a freight elevator there, but I think we used the stairs, but it s been so long, I can t remember. It could have been on another floor and you couldn t call it, I know, but people were going up and down the stairs as well. Do what? People were going up and down the stairs because the elevators, I think, you couldn t call them if they weren t on your floor, and I think that many people were having trouble getting around the building. If I remember right, that freight elevator was the only elevator up here. The other elevator, seems to me like, only went to the second floor, where the office was. Oh, okay. I m not familiar with that, I don t know. So when you got on the sixth floor you were directed over to the southeast corner window? Yes. The stairs and the elevator were in the northwest corner, what I call the northwest corner of the building. Well I was directed to the southeast corner where they had found three spent hulls or cartridge cases under the window, and discovered that that was where the shooting had occurred. was on the scene? Who was there, do you recall when you walked over there who No! Actually, there was people all over the building; really too many. Not trying to be critical of anybody, but the building really was not very secure. They didn t know, apparently, where the shots came from, and officers, Secret Service people, and sheriff s office, deputies, were kind of running helter smelter trying to figure out what was going on. couple. All us media guys were there too? Sir? There was some media guys, some press guys, there too a Yes, I don t remember many of them being upstairs, though. They weren t, for awhile. They blocked it off, and there was one

10 10 Channel 8 photographer and a Dallas News reporter. I think they were the only two on the sixth floor at that time. What did you there s been controversy in some different stories about, say where were the shells when you got there? Were they on the floor? Somebody, some claim that they were picked up before you photographed the location there. We photographed the location. Actually there s a photograph of it where they were found up there on the sixth floor now. You can t And that s where they were found? There was three spent shells there, and we have photographs of them both in this book here and up (tapping Jesse Curry s book) In the museum. There s one in the museum, if you know what you re looking for. You can t see them very easy. I see. And then also some question about movement of the boxes before any photographs were made. Do you know anything about that? As far as I know, the boxes were not moved, but I can t I wasn t there minutes after the shooting. People running through there looking for this that and the other, it is possible somebody moved them. But nobody said, oh well we had to move these, but we ll move them back for the picture you re going to take. Nothing like that happened? Well, I don t know. After I got there of course, we took pictures of the boxes exactly where they were. I didn t know if any of them had been moved, I couldn t say if they were or not. There was one instance where they took and showed me a picture when I was before the Warren Commission, and it had been taken from outside of the building, out on the plaza out there somewhere, and he called my attention to the fact that that picture didn t look exactly like the ones we took. Well, I had to agree with him, it looked like somebody might have moved a box from the time somebody had taken that picture outside till I got there. There was still boxes stacked up around the window. nest ) there. Does it look to you like? (holding up photograph of sniper s That? Yeah. Why don t you just kind of hold that up in front of you a little bit

11 11 (holding photo up) You have a better picture of this somewhere. Yeah. (0:31:07) This is the way that I found the boxes when I got there. You notice the three in the window. There s one there in the background. Right here. (pointing to particular spot in photograph). Apparently that is what Oswald used to sit on while he was waiting for the president to come by. And the wall of books that kind of shields that area from... Uh, there s another picture somewhere that shows, if I can find it now, shows how the books were stacked up there at the time. Well, the way they re arranged in the museum today, does that look kind of close to it, but not exactly? there before. Not exactly. There s been a wall built around there that wasn t You don t remember that? That wall that comes down where the window is that blocks off the area - that was not there. It was all opened; the whole floor was opened. I can find it somewhere in here, it s, there s a picture of it in one of these books; I ve forgotten which one it is. It s a good picture of the view as it was from back away from the window. Back from the other angle. So then you started doing finger printing around that area? Well, first of course, we took pictures. We didn t move anything after we got there until we took the pictures. We took several pictures. In a case like that, we had a practice of making duplicate shots, or in important cases, we might even make 3 or 4 or half a dozen shots. We d shoot he d shoot one then I d shoot one. Then we d change the aperture opening on the camera. And the camera was, I m guessing, a 4 by 5 graphic? That s what they used most in those days. Yes, an old 4 by 5 press camera that had the slide in it and you had film on each side, and you had to pull the slide out, turn it over, pull the slide out to take your picture, put the slide back in, turn it over to use the other side of the film. Awkward process and prone to accidentally double exposures or stuff like that. So, you tried to duplicate...?

12 12 Yes, in a case like that, you only have one time to get that picture. You can t go back and take it again. So in important cases we made it a practice to go back and take at least duplicate shots. The more serious the case, the more film we shot. We didn t particularly worry about the cost of film. We may have made a dozen pictures around there. I know we had more negatives up there than we knew what to do with after we got through, and we went through and destroyed a lot of the duplicates after we got them developed. This was to be sure that we got at least one good one, that s all it was. One of the questions that I think has come up is the bag that Oswald s rifle was in. There weren t any pictures made of that? Do you remember seeing that in that area? Yes, there was a bag, a brown bag, there. It was made out of wrapping paper, and we collected that bag. do you remember? You did collect it, but you didn t photograph it? There should be a picture of it somewhere. Now where was it now, where was it? Kind of behind the boxes, To the best of my knowledge, it was to the right on the floor of where he was sitting, on the box that I showed you a minute ago. It may have been the right, it may have been the left, but there was a bag there. Left would be like in the corner Yes, in the corner out back towards the north side of the building, where you headed up to it. know what it was? What did it look like to you, then, if you collected it, did you not I didn t know anything about a bag at that time. There was a bag laying there, at the first thing, there was a brown paper bag, it was too big for that. Later examination indicated that it was a bag had been made out of wrapping paper. It appeared to be shipping paper, and there was a roll in the shipping department downstairs that sent me the paper. Of course at that time, we didn t know anything about Oswald, didn t know anything about what happened. There was a bag there and it was collected. Well, you spent how long a time period? An hour or something like that on the scene? We were there possibly I m guessing, 20, 25 minutes. It s been a long time, I don t remember exactly. But we were working on the, working in the area,

13 13 fingerprints and so forth of the area where the shooting occurred. How successful were you, were you finding prints? We found one good palm print on top of that box, which Oswald was sitting on. It was right on the edge of the box. If you re sitting in a, we ll say this was the box (Carl demonstrates). He was sitting here. The palm print was right on the edge of that box, like when you re sitting on a chair leaning out like this or sitting Bracing yourself? That palm print, this part of the palm, was right on the corner of that box. It popped up pretty good. I say it popped up, it appeared pretty good when we put powder on it. Whoever had put it there used a lot of pressure and got a lot of oil off his hand on the box. We didn t at that time find prints on any other boxes that I remember. Of course, powder is not the best way to check a print on a cardboard box. You need a chemical there. We did find that one using the powder, and we selected that print because it looked like it might have been left by someone sitting on the box. Oh, go ahead. I didn t mean to interrupt. We collected the three spent cartridges, cases. I used the powder on them and didn t find any prints there, which is not unusual on a cartridge case or bullet. You just don t handle or hold them hard enough to leave a print there. You collected them from the floor? Yes, I picked them up from the floor. I kept two of them, if I remember correctly, and gave one of them to, maybe, Detective Simms. was he doing? Why was that? Who was he? Who was Detective Simms? What (0:39:26) Well, he was one of the homicidal investigators that worked under Captain Fritz. He was up there. The reason he kept one or we gave him one - they wanted to take that cartridge and check all sources they could think of where it might have come from to see if they knew who bought it. Of course at this time we still don t know anything about Oswald. While we were working with that, Captain Fritz sent word for me to come to the north-east north-west corner of the building where the elevator and stairs were. They had found the gun. So we took our camera and went over there and made several shots of that. And to the best of my knowledge, that was not handled at all after it was found. I understood it had not been, it still looked like it was down right where it lay between the boxes by the staircase. it was a Mauser or Who was it that kind of misidentified apparently at first? Thought

14 14 know. I don t know where that Mauser business came from. I don t Did you recognize it? I didn t know what it was. There was no name on the gun. It had a telescopic sight, but there was no name on that gun. Visually you could tell it was what we called a war-time finish. After the war, the country was flooded with those cheap guns. They were rough, kind of a rough finish. They d shoot accurately, but they weren t polished. And this gun was a very rough finish, the stock was rough. It wasn t the best place to find a finger print to start with. But after we made our pictures, I made two or three, Studebaker made two or three. And then I got back and pointed to where it, he took my picture, and I also took his picture with it. The one that I ve seen was of me pointing to the area where the gun was found. And picture s there that show the gun, actually it was between the boxes. And nobody saw, like it was several days later when Oswald s clipboard was found in that same general area, but you didn t see that at that time obviously. I don t know. A clipboard? Well, that had his, Oswald s, you know, what you were supposed to be doing that day in terms of filling orders. But I think that was three or four days later that that was found, that same general area, but not close to the rifle. I m not familiar with that. So you took the rifle Anyway, after we got the pictures taken, I reached down and picked the rifle up. It had a leather strap on it. It was apparent that you could not get a fingerprint off that leather strap - it was entirely too rough. I picked it up by the leather strap. I took a little powder if I remember correctly and put it on the knob of the bolt, that you pull the bolt back to eject the shell. It was too small to do anything with, there was no print there. So I held the gun by the strap, and Captain Fritz got a hold of that bolt and pulled it back and opened it, and a live round fell out. It was ready to fire again. I put a, I think I put a little powder on the gun at the time, but I told Captain Fritz this is not the place to try to work on this gun. I took it back to the City Hall and locked it up. This must have been maybe 2 p.m., best of my memory. When you left the building, you attracted a lot of press, I know, attention. Weren t you kind of leading a bunch of press people down the street in the back of your car?

15 15 Not too much. There was a few people out there and there was Inspector Sawyer standing there Herbert Sawyer, who s a police officer, more or less in charge of that area down there. And I was carrying the gun by the strap, and he, I told him I needed a ride back to City Hall. I couldn t hold that gun without messing up any fingerprints, but I could safely hold it by the strap. I knew I couldn t find any prints on the strap, so I held it that way. An FBI man named Odom, I believe was his name, was standing there. He said, I ll take you. So he drove me to the City Hall. And in route to the FBI to our office, he got on his radio to his office, and he gave a description of the gun and gave them the serial number on it, if I remember. But there was no name on that, no name on the gun it had a serial number, beginning with C. He gave them that information to his office, but I went ahead and he took me on to City Hall, and I locked it up in an evidence box up there. We have an evidence room, and then we have some boxes with keys on it. In that particular box, I had a key to that box, and Captain Dowdy had a key to the box the actual box inside the evidence room. We were the only ones who had keys to that, or access to that box. I placed it in there and came back to the School Book Depository, and I was here until, oh, it must have been close to dark. You came back just to look for more? Down here to finish up what we were doing here - we had an awful lot of work here. Drawings, and photos and so forth; the whole area on the sixth floor, not just that one area which we were working in. When I came back from the City Hall, after I d placed the gun up there, I came up on the second floor, and I run into Mr. Truly, who was the manager of this School Book Depository. It so happened that he and I went to the same church. I didn t really know him, but he and I both went out there to my church. And he started walking back with me, and he told me that an officer came in after the shooting, and he started up the stairs, they walked, on the second floor, they walked back to the back wall, and then west to the northeast corner where the stairs and the elevator were. Well, on that floor there was a little lunchroom. Mr. Truly said that as he and the officer came up to that lunchroom, Oswald was standing there by the Coke machine or some vending machine. The officer drew his gun, and he asked Mr. Truly if he knew the man, and Mr. Truly told him, yes, he worked there. They just let him go on, walk on out the building. Apparently he had just come down from the sixth floor after the shooting and when they approached him, he just acted like he was getting something out of the machine there. shooting? Was it at that time? Do you know the time frame on this? How long it was after the Sir? Do you know the time frame how long it was after the shooting (0:48:21) That was immediately after the shooting that the officer came in or very shortly. And Oswald hadn t gotten out of the building then. But we suspect that

16 16 after the shooting, that he went back either to the stairs or the elevator, he put the gun down between the boxes there close to the stairs, came on down to the second floor and at that time, Truly and the officer were headed back that way. And he stepped into that little lunchroom which was just to the left of the stairs, the exit, and was getting something, was acting like he was getting something out of the machine. But apparently he just, they let him go on, he walked out, and they went on up. You didn t really begin working on the gun until that night? No, it was later that night. We collected a sack and a few other things, but we didn t collect all the boxes. Well now at that time, when I was talking to Mr. Truly going back in there, he said they had one of his men, that was the first that I knew, well wait, it was before that. When I was going to City Hall with Mr. Odom, with the gun, I asked him then, how badly is he hit? He said the president is dead. Well that was the first I knew that the shot had been fatal. And then of course when I got back to the building, after taking it up there - I guess it took me 30 minutes to go up there and back - Mr. Truly told me that one of his men had been arrested. And I didn t at that time know that Mr., Officer Tippit had been killed. Yeah, I was going to ask you how I didn t know at that time. that kind of figured in. I don t know just when I found out Tippit had been shot. Well did anybody from your department go out to the scene? Yes. Not yourself? You were busy (flipping through the book JFK: First Day Evidence) Captain Dowdy and Sgt. Pete Barnes their pictures are in here, that car, and I recognize them. This book is, for the purpose of identification, is First Day Evidence. This is the book you re referring to, is First Day Evidence? (turning around book so camera can see pages of black and white photographs) Yes. See there s pictures that we took at the time when we were here. There s various pictures here showing those boxes and various Can you kind of turn that maybe and kind of hold it to the camera? (turning book around and flipping through it) Let s see, just a

17 17 minute here. OK. (holding up book and showing picture of stacked boxes) This is the way the boxes were stacked around that window, where the shooting occurred. Some of them, I think, had been moved here. Do you think that s where, as is shown in the museum today, there were more boxes than were actually there that day? These boxes were there at the time of the shooting. I don t remember just what s up there now. OK, OK, all righty. Thank you. But there s numerous boxes, you can see looking down one of the aisles there how they were stacked up all over that floor up there, and aisles between them to walk down. Do you remember Mr. Truly saying anything other than one of his men had been arrested? I don t remember exactly what he said. But that was the first I knew, I didn t even know his name at that time; the first I knew that one of his men had been arrested as a suspect. Of course, I hadn t been in contact with anybody during my work and wasn t on the radio or anything like that. I don t think I knew Tippit had been shot at that time; I don t believe I did. Did you know Tippit personally? No. Well, I knew him when I saw him, but that was about all. I see. So, what did you find on the rifle? I believe you were still working on the rifle, weren t you, when the FBI, when that was turned over to the FBI? Or not? Yes. Now that was another situation that, it seemed like you couldn t do anything right due to the pressure of the public wanting to know. They were trying to keep the public informed. Meaning they had to have pretty open access to the press? (0:53:52) Yes. The Dallas Police Department at that time had a policy of cooperating with the press. And they tried to give them all the information they could as fast as they could. And also they Of course that s what led to debacle there on the

18 18 second floor when they finally moved him. They were trying to cooperate with the press and possibly at the same time keep him in the public eye to keep down any criticism of him being mistreated or anything like that. But Chief Curry was working with the press as well as he could to keep them informed of what was being done. Were you having to answer questions about what you were doing, what you were finding, stuff like that? No, I was on the fourth floor, all the activity was on the third floor. I didn t really know what was going on down there. I hadn t been down there. But I was isolated where people couldn t get in to me. I was working after I got, left the School Book Depository Building. I went back, got the gun out, and started trying to process it. At that time, I suspect, Oswald had become a suspect. And they had his prints - finger and palm prints - and that palm print off the box that I collected, I tore it off, it was definitely his palm print; no doubt about it. Now the gun, as I said before, was rough, it was tough. On the side of the, well the type of gun that it was, the metal, the barrel, and working mechanism set into a stock, held on there to the strap with screws. You could lift it right out of the stock, the wooden stock, when you loosened the screws. The stock itself is weather-beaten and too rough to find any fingerprints. On the side of the trigger guard, I guess you call it a trigger guard, there s a flat place there, that I could see traces of prints. The metal was pretty rough, but I could see traces of it. I applied the powder, and there was prints there that could have been Oswald s. The shape of them, roughly the shape of them looked like they could have been, oh, I believe it was these three fingers, or two fingers on his one hand, I forgot which hand. I spent an awful lot of time with that. I couldn t get them to where I could definitely say they were his, working at it that length of time, I wasn t able to say one way or the other, although I suspected they were his, but there was no way of saying they was his. Then I took that gun out of the stock and started putting powder on the rest of the gun. Down toward the end of the stock I found traces of a fingerprint that extended out from, well actually I found the print before I removed it from the stock. Find this gun if I can here. I thought I had a picture of the gun. (looking for photograph for a minute, then giving up) There s one here somewhere, but I don t know where it is right now. Anyway, I found traces of a print that extended out on the barrel, part of them apparently went up under the barrel between the barrel and the stock. So then I took the gun off and finished dusting the area, and then I found a piece of a palm print there. It looked reasonably good for comparison purposes. The usual method of collecting those prints after you develop them and can see them, is take a piece of Scotch tape and mash down over it good. And the powder will cling to the tape when you pull it off, and you can put the powder on a 3 by 5 card like this, (holding up a small card) put it on the back. And then you ve got the print under that tape, and you can take it and compare it. But this was very dim, which indicated that was not a new print. It didn t take much powder. But reflection of the light showed the dried print on the barrel. I looked at the print and it looked like this part of his palm where the gun had been laying across his hand. I ve forgotten now which hand it was, but I was pretty sure that this part of the palm was what I d collected. But it was a very dim print, and for presentation to a jury, you like the best print you could show. I could see it, but I don t think a jury could. But the reflection of the light when I shined it on

19 19 there, I could still see pretty good impressions of that print on that barrel. So I was fixing to set up my cameras to try to take a photograph of that print, and of course on something round the light makes a streak right down one part. If you ve got a light here, it won t light up the whole thing. You ll see a streak of light and if you move that light a little, the light on the barrel will move around. I was going to set up a time exposure, and get it set, and then take that light and move it around the barrel to get all of the print, what I was fixing to do. About that time, I got orders from my captain, Captain Dowdy don t do anything else to the gun. Stop what you re doing, [unclear Drain], the FBI will be in at 11:30 to pick it up. Well it, of course it caught me right in the middle of the stream. I didn t know just exactly what to do. I had powder all over it. They say, Don t do anything else to it, and that s what I do. I followed orders (chuckling). But it was kind of a frustrating thing when you re working with it and be interrupted in mid stream that way. I don t think the chief s office at that time knew just exactly where I stood on checking that. But anyway, I stopped and stripped it back in the stock and put it aside. I didn t try to wrap it up or anything because you could mess those prints up wrapping them up and handling them. I didn t have time to write reports or anything like that, it must have been after ten o clock then, so I just put the gun back in the evidence room and left it alone until Drain came in at 11:30. He had two or three people with him. Did you know him, or was this just a Yes, I d known Drain a long time. And I told him at the time, there s a print here. I showed him where it is, where it was. But I don t know whether it registered with him or not. Anyway, he took the gun. But that s all that I turned over. I didn t turn over the lift that I d previously made of that dim print, because I thought that they would find that under there and come up with their own print. My orders were turn over the gun, and so I don t remember if I gave them anything else or not - there may have been one or two other things. But I didn t even thing of giving them this print that I had lifted off of there. Well, the gun was taking about 11:30 that night. I worked all night - I didn t come in the next day. Sunday the gun was returned, but I wasn t there when it was returned, and it was in a box, a big box. But again, I was directed not to do anything else with it, just leave it alone. And I didn t open the box. And I never did get back to checking the print, they told me not to do anything else with it, and I didn t. I felt sure it was his print when I briefly examined it that palm print that I got off the barrel. Yes. And when I went to, no I m getting ahead of myself. I didn t hear anymore of the gun after I gave it to Drain. I knew it came back and was in our evidence room. But I didn t examine it or do anything else with the evidence at all. You didn t find any prints either on the gun or what s come to be called the Sniper s perch - that window -- that indicated anybody else other than Oswald, did you? Were there other prints? I mean, you know, some of the theories that have developed over the years, of there were two people up there; other theories that Oswald wasn t even - of course Oswald himself was saying that he was a patsy - and then people

20 20 cried that wasn t even him with the gun, that was somebody else. Did you find any evidence...? No, I didn t find any in fact, at that time, I found no prints on the window. That was again a pretty rough window. Down in the area of the boxes or anything? Not the boxes at that time, I didn t. I put powder a little on these here. You can see some black marks on it - that s powder. But they didn t show up any on the boxes. All of the other boxes that were stacked up there. Prints at that time really didn t mean too much to me because he worked there. But the one on the box is somebody had apparently been sitting on, that palm print, did mean something. That meant something. The way it was on there, it didn t look like somebody had picked it up. It looked like they was just resting on it. And they really put pressure on it to put a lot of grease, oil on their hand. About three or four days later, two days something, I don t remember, but I got another directive from the chief s office release everything you have to the FBI. I hadn t done anything with any of that other stuff. I think they did have us go back and collect those boxes, many of those boxes down there. I don t remember exactly when that was. But they were given to the FBI also. It was my understanding that they did find prints on those boxes belonging to Oswald, but they used a chemical rather than the powder. But I never did get around to using chemicals. The relationship with the FBI at that point was I mean you already said you were frustrated, understandably you were in the middle of checking out the rifle when they came and took it away from you but kind of what was the relationship with the Dallas Police and the FBI? (1:07:37) I thought we got along with them fine. I didn t have any problems with them at all. Apparently from articles I ve read in the paper now that s not a very good place to get information, I ve found that out, that there some officer named Revel and some FBI man had had exchanges. There was some argument, or rather some unfavorable comment that the FBI didn t let the police department know Oswald was in town. Well, I don t really know why they should. It wasn t our job to find Oswald or protect the President. That s Secret Service that s their job. And I guess it might be FBI s oh, more of their line to check out people if the Secret Service didn t. Anyway, there was a little, oh, it seemed like a little friction or something at the higher levels there. But as far as I was concerned. You weren t aware of it? I got along fine with all those fellows - I worked with them years. I never had any problem whatever with them. One thing that did kind of maybe if we could do anything right at any time after I turned this gun and when I gave them the gun the second time, I sent that palm print that I lifted up there. I never had heard what the results were of the FBI investigation. I never knew what they found out when the gun

21 21 came back. else? Shouldn t they let you know as a professional courtesy if nothing Well, they were busy doing this, that, and the other, and they may have let somebody else know, I don t know, but I didn t hear it. OK. Two or three days after I gave them that gun and the palm print, an FBI man came to my house. He wanted to know where I got that palm print. It had been identified as Oswald s. I gathered that they thought I had lifted that palm print off the gun after it came back, which wasn t so. I lifted it before. But they apparently were a little excited; they thought they d missed it or something up there. But that was not the case. Now, I thought there was a print on that gun that was better than the one I d lifted. I thought I could see it. And that was what I was going after at the time they stopped me. The, I doubt the man who did the finger print work in Washington, had any information as to what I had done or had found. He gets the gun; it s got black powder all over it. Obviously somebody has been messing with it. Frankly if somebody brought me a gun like that, already been powdered, worked with, and want me to check it for fingerprints, I d probably shove it aside and not even mess with it because you don t know what you ve got. It s already been messed up. I can find no fault with the man in Washington not finding the print that I thought was there, if it was there - I can t say definitely it was there. I think I could have gotten a photograph, I may not. I figured with their equipment up there, they probably would come up with it. Anyway, they didn t find it. And I can find no fault with him not finding it, due to the conditions under which he was working. In fact, I can t really fault anybody in this whole investigation Well, I assume you think it s unfair the criticism that fell on, well it fell a lot of places, but fell on the Dallas Police Department, also fell on the press about what happened that weekend. Well, again, I have no criticism with the way it was handled. It was just one of those things were you had so much publicity, the trauma following the shooting of an American president. I can look back and see, we weren t prepared for such a thing. The public, or the police agencies, just weren t prepared for the trauma following the shooting of an American president. Three agencies involved here - too many cooks in the kitchen. The Secret Service has a responsibility for protecting the President. They have the body, they have the car. They are not the investigators though. The FBI does not have jurisdiction under laws at that time. It was not against federal law to shoot the President. Jurisdiction for the investigation fell with the Dallas Police Department. But without thinking or, I really understand why they acted like they did; they loaded the President s body, the automobile, and everything onto the airplane to take it to Washington. Well, it s out of the hands of the investigators, Dallas Police Department. The FBI sure were vitally interested in it. We worked with them. I have

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