A & T TRANSCRIPTS (720)

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1 THE COURT: ll right. Bring the jury in. nd, Mr. Cooper, I'll ask you to stand and be sworn. You can wait till the jury comes in, if you want. (Jury present at :0 a.m.) THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Cooper, if you'll raise your right hand and be sworn. STEPHEN COOPER, DEFENDNT COX'S WITNESS, SWORN THE CLERK: Thank you. Please be seated. s I indicated, I think, yesterday, we're going to take some witnesses out of order this morning, and later we'll return to Mr. Barney's testimony. So, Mr. Traverso. MR. TRVERSO: Thank you, Your Honor. DIRECT EXMINTION BY MR. TRVERSO: Mr. Cooper, could you state your name for the record and spell your last name, please? Stephen Cooper. C-o-o-p-e-r. Thank you. Mr. Cooper, could you state what your -- where you live and what your occupation is? I live in Fairbanks. I'm an assistant U.S. attorney -- nd stationed in Fairbanks. -- how long have you been a U.S. attor -- assistant U.S. attorney? Started in the early '0s. I think it was '. & T TRNSCRIPTS () -0 attrans@sbcglobal.net

2 THE COURT: I think if you'd put that mic another inch or two away from your mouth, it might get better -- THE WITNESS: ll right. MR. TRVERSO: He's used to sitting at a table like this, Your Honor. Sometimes it's -- BY MR. TRVERSO: Do you know Francis Schaeffer Cox? Yes, I do. nd how do you know him? Through his activities with regard to a Second mendment rights group that was formed in Fairbanks. I'm not sure when. But they visited me in my office at the U.S. ttorney's Office in Fairbanks a couple of years ago. I couldn't give you the date. It's possible and probable that that was the first time I had met him, but I'm not sure. Did you meet with him subsequent to that? Yes, I did. nd would you meet with him on a social basis or on a business basis? I guess it was sort of in between. We had lunch a few times together. Did you talk over the phone at all? Yes, occasionally. What was the nature of your discussions with Mr. & T TRNSCRIPTS () -0 attrans@sbcglobal.net

3 Cox? It varied. It began and probably remained focused on the Second mendment rights movement or group that he was associated with, but not entirely. They were a few other concerns raised. But basically that was what it centered around, excuse me. What were some of the other concerns? I remember at one point Mr. Cox sharing me -- with me his concern about his -- some legal case or cases that he was involved in with the state. Were these criminal cases or a case involving children? I think it was both. Probably one of each. Were you in the nature of a legal advisor or just being a friend? In between. I -- I'm not a wasn't a legal advisor. I was interested in what he was involved in right from the day that he came to my office to visit. There were about a half a dozen of his associates -- & T TRNSCRIPTS () -0 attrans@sbcglobal.net

4 -- one of -- with one of whom I was personally acquainted prior to that. nd -- Would that be Philip Clark? That was Philip Clark, yeah. So it -- it was an interesting subject. nd my understanding was that I wasn't the only government official -- Right. -- visited by that -- Right. -- group at that time, or even on that day, probably. Did you -- you've spoken about the Second mendment Task Force. Did -- was the -- any -- did the subject matter of militias come up? Indirectly, it probably -- I believe that I understood from Mr. Cox that he was -- that the people in his Second mendment rights group were prepared to respond in the nature of a militia in the event that any such thing would become necessary. I mean, this is very general. I don't have a very clear recollection of that. But it seems to -- & T TRNSCRIPTS () -0 attrans@sbcglobal.net

5 -- me that was conveyed. When you would have meetings with Mr. Cox, say, with -- you said you had several lunch meetings -- how long would those meetings go for? Just for lunch time. I mean, not extremely long. nd when he -- you had telephone calls from him, how long would those be usually? Probably pretty short, like, "Can you meet for lunch," or something like that. I -- I can't recall specifically. t any point did you ever observe Mr. Cox being particularly concerned about not with his militia but people in the militia movement? MR. SKROCKI: Objection to the form of the question. THE COURT: I think he may answer. It was technically leading. You may answer, Mr. Cooper. THE WITNESS: Very well. Did I observe him being concerned? He expressed to me at one of the luncheon meetings -- MR. SKROCKI: Calls for hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. TRVERSO: Did you ever give him any suggestions or direction regarding his activities with the militia? & T TRNSCRIPTS () -0 attrans@sbcglobal.net

6 Yes. In what capacity? Well, the first time -- I'm still assuming this was the first time we had any contact, when they came to my office, that group of half a dozen or so, including Mr. Cox and Mr. Clark and some others, I gave them a suggestion at that time that if they were a Second mendments right -- a Second mendment rights group, that they should stick to that issue and not mix it with other issues. That was essentially what I -- I guess the heart of what I was saying at that time. There was a lot of conversation, but that was my recommendation. That was in the -- you recall that coming up during the first meeting? Yes. In the second, or your second or third or your other meetings, can you tell us what -- some of the other things that you've talked about? Other than the legal cases, were there any subject matter other than those other legal cases? Right. In the -- what I think was probably the last time I had lunch with Mr. Cox, not sure, but I think it was in the middle of at some time, so I am not more accurate on dates. But at that time Mr. Cox conveyed his belief that there were people in his group that were of a different mindset or & T TRNSCRIPTS () -0 attrans@sbcglobal.net

7 set of opinions than those that were consistent with the rest of the group. What did you understand his mindset to be? MR. SKROCKI: Calls for speculation. MR. TRVERSO: I'm sorry, I will withdraw the question. BY MR. TRVERSO: What did you understand the militia goals were that he was associated with? MR. SKROCKI: Foundation. MR. TRVERSO: sking if he has any personal knowledge, Your Honor. THE COURT: It's a fair objection. MR. TRVERSO: THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the ruling. MR. TRVERSO: I -- THE COURT: I sustained the objection. THE WITNESS: MR. TRVERSO: BY MR. TRVERSO: When you were talking to Mr. Cox about his case, criminal case, what case did you recall that being? I recall it being one that involved a -- an alleged domestic assault and some form of domestic violence allegation. That was the one that I recall it relating to. & T TRNSCRIPTS () -0 attrans@sbcglobal.net

8 Was there any time that you spoke to Mr. Cox at one of these luncheons or even a phone call where he appeared to -- particularly excited or agitated? The last one, I would have to agree that that was -- that was -- it was -- I'm not sure I would have used exactly those words, but there was some unusual appearance to him at that time that I thought I observed. What period of time are we speaking of that you and Mr. Cox had these meetings? I mean, are we talking winter of to spring or summer? Can you break that down for us, please? I'll try. I -- the first time I ever heard of Mr. Cox, I have figured is probably in 0, if I've got it right. There was a year in which he was running for some public office. Can't say for sure what it was. Some state or local government office. nd I happened to see him up on a TV screen being interviewed in that connection. So that's the first I ever heard of him. Didn't know he existed before, never heard the name or anything. nd so I -- that's the beginning. nd I think that must have been in the middle of 0 at some time. Since that time, I've had these few contacts that you're speaking of, and that lasted, I believe, until approximately the middle of. That's my best estimate of the time frame that -- & T TRNSCRIPTS () -0 attrans@sbcglobal.net

9 -- that went on. Did you at some point just decide, "Well, I'm not going to talk to him anymore," or did you just -- you guys just sort of disconnected for a while? No, there was -- I never made any such decision. So there was -- as far as you were concerned, there was no rupture in your relationship with Mr. Cox? No. No. Not -- there was -- wasn't anything like that. Was there anything about what you talked about with Mr. Cox that made you believe that he needed to be reported to law enforcement or anything of that nature? MR. SKROCKI: Objection. Leading. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. TRVERSO: Did anything -- did you at any point observe or hear -- well, never -- I'll rephrase that. In, in pril -- we'll, I'll restart here. Did you -- have you -- you said you heard his political campaign dialog. Did you ever hear any speeches of Mr. Cox after the political thing that you listened to in 0? I don't think I ever did. & T TRNSCRIPTS () -0 attrans@sbcglobal.net

10 COOPER - CROSS I read about them in the paper, but I didn't hear any of them. What advice did you give him at that last meeting that you had with him? Well, it -- it was a -- it was a similar recommendation to the one that I'd made at the first time in the U.S. ttorney's Office when the group was there. But with a -- with an illustration added on. In other words, "Don't be diverted from your single issue of Second mendment rights and take on some other issue." nd I had reference at that time to a fairly recent news item that there had been a militia in the state of Michigan that was recently raided, I guess you might say, by federal authorities and found to be in possession of a hit list to kill local government officials. I brought this up, saying, "See what can happen if an organization that starts out with one particular cause gets diverted from that cause into other issues?" That would be a worst-case scenario for an example. MR. TRVERSO: Have no further questions, Your Honor. MR. DOOLEY: No questions. MS. HDEN: No questions. CROSS-EXMINTION BY MR. SKROCKI: Morning, Mr. Cooper. Morning. & T TRNSCRIPTS () -0 attrans@sbcglobal.net

11 COOPER - CROSS Would you characterize your lunches with and meeting with Mr. Cox as a mentor/mentee relationship? I wouldn't put that characterization on it. I'm not sure what he or others would say, but that's not what I experienced. That's not how you observed it? Well, correct. Here -- I -- I think I've heard that before, but I don't -- but to me there's an element in a mentor situation in which the mentor's advice is sought out and applied. nd I have no way of knowing -- I had no indication whether any of the advice I gave was ever applied. I didn't get the feedback to draw that conclusion. When -- you just testified that you told Mr. Cox about the Michigan militia and a hit list, and don't get diverted from your Second mendment issue? Essentially that, yes. What was his physical reaction to you when you told him about this information about the Michigan militia and the raid and the hit list? He didn't say anything. nd I suppose I -- I may have repeated myself, because he didn't say anything. nd I -- I didn't perceive a reaction one way or the other. He said nothing, and I couldn't tell by looking at him whether he accepted the point or understood the point. I couldn't tell for sure. During your meetings, your lunches, phone calls, you ever & T TRNSCRIPTS () -0 attrans@sbcglobal.net

12 COOPER - REDIRECT discuss with him or did he discuss with you machine guns, fully-automatic machine guns or silencers? No. No, it never came up. Never came up? Right. How about the names of aron Bennett or Bill Fulton? Did those names ever come up? I never heard those names. How about Michael nderson? No. No name like that. I -- I don't believe he brought up any names to me in our conversations. That's all the questions I have. THE COURT: Further? REDIRECT EXMINTION BY MR. TRVERSO: Did you -- you mentioned, though, that he did bring up some concerns about people in the militia movement? Yes. nd how concerned did he seem to you during that whatever -- lunch meeting? bout that subject -- The -- yeah. -- I couldn't say that I observed anything -- Uh-huh (affirmative). -- that indicated how concerned he was about that. & T TRNSCRIPTS () -0 attrans@sbcglobal.net

13 COOPER - REDIRECT What observations I made, I don't know if they were connected with that issue or not. But I did observe his demeanor, more or less, when he came in to where we had lunch, which was in a cafe there in Fairbanks. It's a -- he was looking over his shoulder, sort of, you know, like trying to stay out of sight. May even have said something like that. But I don't recall. Did he appear jittery? Well, not jittery, but constantly looking over his shoulder and looking for a way to stay unrecognized. Thank you, Mr. Cooper. THE COURT: ll right, you may be excused, Mr. Cooper. Thank you. THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor. MR. TRVERSO: That's all my witnesses, Your Honor. Defense rests, as far as Mr. Cox is concerned. THE COURT: nd I gather we're going to take some other witnesses out of order? MR. SKROCKI: Yes, sir. We're going to call in response to Mr. Cox's case Special gent Eric Cohoon. THE COURT: If you'll step into the witness box, & T TRNSCRIPTS () -0 attrans@sbcglobal.net