Seventy Times Seven Program No IT IS WRITTEN SPEAKER: JOHN BRADSHAW

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1 It Is Written Script: 1306 Seventy Times Seven Page 1 Seventy Times Seven Program No IT IS WRITTEN SPEAKER: JOHN BRADSHAW John Bradshaw: Thanks for joining me on It Is Written. Today, we re discussing the very important and very biblical subject of forgiveness. And I have a special guest with me. His name is Dick Tibbits. He is an author, speaker and the chief people officer for Florida Hospital. And he s written a book called Forgive to Live. Dick, thank you so much for taking time today. Dick Tibbits: It s good to be back again, thank you. JB: The subject of forgiveness is such an important subject. Such a biblical subject. In fact, let s dive into this by going straight to the Lord s Prayer. Jesus taught us to say, Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. That s interesting, isn t it? DT: Yes, in fact, at the end of the prayer, there s even a commentary that clarifies that and says, And if you do not forgive others, your Heavenly Father will not forgive you. Now, it s scary to think that there s something I could fail to do, and all of a sudden God is going to withhold His forgiveness from me. JB: It seems to me that as Jesus was saying this, He was very, very clear. If you don t forgive others, you can t really expect God to forgive you. It doesn t seem to me like Jesus is saying, There s a way for you to earn forgiveness. He s linking this attitude that we might have with others, and saying that the attitude perhaps makes it impossible or harder for us to receive the grace and goodness of God. DT: Yeah, because God s forgiving me gives me a future benefit in eternal life. My forgiving someone else gives me a benefit today. Because today, when I practice forgiveness, I can be released from the bitterness that has kept me entrapped for decades. So, really, what God is saying is not, I won t do this if you don t do that. What He s saying is, I can t give you the blessing that forgiveness entails unless you re willing to receive that by forgiving others. JB: Forgiveness is good for a person... DT: Yes.

2 It Is Written Script: 1306 Seventy Times Seven Page 2 JB:...on all kinds of levels: interpersonally, emotionally, even physically. That s remarkable. DT: Yep, and we ve discussed that how forgiveness can change my blood pressure and improve it, and how forgiveness can change my outlook on life so that I move from bitterness to better, which is a good way to live life. I really feel for people who have experienced pain who don t know how to get out of bitterness. That s why I teach forgiveness, to give them a way out. JB: Well, let s do some teaching right now. We ve established, even today, and last time we met together, that forgiveness is good for a person on all those levels. It s biblical. Jesus mandated it. He said to Peter, No, not seven times. Seventy times seven. We ve talked in the past about how forgiveness is really kind of a process. You might be able to forgive someone right away...they burned the toast, but you can get over that pretty quickly. But if someone causes some terrible, grievous injury, that s going to be harder to work through. Let s talk about the how of forgiveness. I don t know that there would be very many people there d be some, but there would not be very many people who would say, I do not want to forgive. I think the vast majority of people would say, I want to forgive. But some things are easier said than done. Help me understand how to forgive. DT: Well, the first step is the most obvious, but it s the most important, and that is, I must choose forgiveness. You see, when something happens to me, I quickly react. Psychologists call it the stimulus response there s a stimulus, something occurs, I respond, I react. So somebody hurts me, and I react in pain and suffering. Forgiveness adds to that by saying, I have a choice to make. And this is critically important, because we now know it s choice, not circumstance, that determines our life. It s not the things that happen to me that determine what my life will become. It s the choices I make. JB: It s how you respond to those stimuli. DT: Yeah. So I teach people to almost become Shakespearean in this. When something happens to you, the question to ask yourself is this: To forgive or not to forgive? That is the question. JB: Let me ask you something about that. When do you ask that question? Let s say someone backs into my car in the parking lot, my lovely vehicle. I just had it painted, and they cause terrible damage. When do I want to be asking myself about forgiveness? Right then? Or after we ve called the insurance company?

3 It Is Written Script: 1306 Seventy Times Seven Page 3 DT: You want to start the forgiveness process as soon as it comes to your mind that you can forgive. You see, most of us do things without thinking about them. It s called consciousness and unconsciousness. John, I d like to invite you to do something that will help us remember this, and I want to invite our audience to do the same. I simply want you to clasp both of your hands together. Now, which thumb is on top? Is it the left thumb or the right thumb? Let me tell you the secret to this. Half of the world will have their left thumb on top and half of the world will have their right thumb on top. It has nothing to do with whether you re left-handed or right-handed. It simply has to do with how you did it the first time, and then how you do it every time. So John, when you put your hands together, did you think, Which thumb will I put on top? JB: No, I did not. And I tell you what, every time I do it, same thing. DT: Same thing. JB: It doesn t feel right to have my left thumb on top. It s right on top every single time. DT: When you do it backwards, it feels very awkward. JB: If I did that, I would say, That s just not right. DT: And yet half the world does it that way and thinks the way you do it is awkward. My point being that when we did this, we didn t think. That was an unconscious action. When we ve been hurt, we are going to unconsciously react. So when somebody bangs into my car, I might not think of forgiveness right away. We can say a prayer of, God, when I have been hurt, please remind me to forgive, so God will bring the thought of forgiveness. When the thought comes, that s when I choose to forgive. JB: You spoke a moment ago and referenced the forgiveness process. I think one of the difficult things about forgiveness is that people have misconceived ideas or misperceptions of about what forgiveness is. Forgiveness doesn t happen in an instant. Forgive and forget last time we spoke, we talked about forgive and forget. That s not even reality. So how does this forgiveness process work? DT: Easy. I choose to forgive, and I have the sense that I ve made that decision.

4 It Is Written Script: 1306 Seventy Times Seven Page 4 JB: You backed into my car, and I thought, I really need to forgive that guy, and I m going to do this. DT: Yes. However, two hours later, or the next day, I have to call my insurance company, and all of a sudden I m aware of the fact that I m now going to have to pay a lot of money. I thought I was covered, but I have a deductible. This person just cost me $500 or whatever. And I m upset again. JB: I m mad now. DT: I m mad again. But I know I need to choose to forgive again. And so I forgive again and I m fine, until a couple days later, I go to the body shop, and they talk about matching the paint...and they do it, but it doesn t look as perfect as it did before. So now I ve got a car that s always going to have this defect. And it upsets me again. JB: And as long as I ve got that car, every time I look at it... DT: I m going to remember. However, every time I can feel the hurt or anger rising, I choose to forgive again. That s why I think Christ s advice was, I tell you not to forgive seven times... I wish I could tell you to forgive once or twice and it s over. With some things, it is over. It is that easy. But there are other things that will need forgiveness and more forgiveness. So let me offer you this assistance: When I forgive, it can be discouraging because I just forgave yesterday and I forgave the day before, and it keeps coming back. Nothing s getting better. Does forgiveness work? What I tell people is that there are two things that will begin to occur each time you forgive. One is, the intensity will become less and less. It still might be upsetting but it won t be as upsetting. Every time I reduce that intensity, I m benefiting from the gift of forgiveness. The second thing that ll change is frequency. Yeah, I ll remember it again. But I was remembering it every hour before, and now I m only remembering it every day, and a time will come when I ll only recall it every month, then maybe once or twice a year, and then maybe I ll remember it and maybe I won t. Intensity and frequency are the indicators of the effectiveness of forgiveness. JB: In your book Forgive to Live, you write about something that is a key component in practicing forgiveness reframing. Explain that to me. DT: Well, reframing is taking an event and seeing it from a different perspective. We all view life from our frame of reference depending on our background and our

5 It Is Written Script: 1306 Seventy Times Seven Page 5 history. So reframing is taking that frame of reference that I m used to, and looking at things differently. One way to illustrate this is to think of when you go to the art shop and put a frame around a picture. I can bring the frame in close and get just the portrait. Or I can expand the frame and get a family picture. What I see what I choose to see in my frame is how I see life. JB: Let s see if we can illustrate this with a few concrete examples. I mentioned before, I m madder than a wet hen because you backed into my car. Maybe if I pulled the frame out a little bit I would see...what? DT: Part of it is you could see, maybe, a circumstance in my life. I may have just gotten a phone call that my mother was in critical condition, and all I can think about is, Is she going to live? What do I say to her? I m distracted with that thought as I drive. While I m thinking about that, you stop, I don t see it, my reaction is delayed, and I hit you. Now, I still hit you. It wasn t your fault and you still deserve the right to collect from my insurance. None of that changes. But rather than you seeing me as stupid as What were you thinking? What were you doing? you now see me as someone you can understand yourself. JB: Someone is shot dead, and there s a grieving family. Let s see if we can pull the frame back a dead loved one and a madman with a gun. But perhaps the guy was high on drugs and wasn t in control of his capacities. Then perhaps you could talk about his upbringing and some of the other unfortunate circumstances of his life. Would that be reframing? DT: That would be reframing, and part of reframing is how large we make a frame. JB: Let me ask you a question, because I imagine someone watching us and saying, You re letting the guy off the hook. Am I letting the guy off the hook by reframing? Well, the poor dear, he had a drug problem and he didn t have a daddy, poor fellow. Is that what I m doing? DT: No. A couple of things: number one, the facts are the facts. Reframing doesn t change the facts. Number two, every action has consequences. Reframing doesn t change the consequences of an act. The person may need to serve time in jail to reflect upon what they did, so they don t do it again.

6 It Is Written Script: 1306 Seventy Times Seven Page 6 But the other thing reframing does is, you realize we live a world of sin. We live in a world where evil happens, where hurt happens. I cannot live in a protected world where nothing bad happens to me. Bad things happen to good people. So I need to have a perspective that says, At some point, it s in God s hands. God has a view of the world different than mine. And if I can turn it over to God, then I m not stuck with all the difficulties and trials of this world, but I share it. It s almost like the yoke. God takes some of my burden and shares it with me because I m bringing Him into my world. JB: So reframing helps me to step back a little bit, look at the big picture, and then I m going to suggest what it enables me to do is to perhaps more easily choose the forgiveness option. Rather than seeing someone as a tyrant or a moron or an idiot or whatever, I m now seeing that person who, like me, is subject to various dynamics in his or her life and maybe was under stress, strain, reaction, whatever. DT: Exactly. In fact, what I tell people is that reframing is really seeing the person in a more holistic view. When I m upset at someone, I notice all of their bad points. I ve experienced this when I get into an argument with a friend. They bring back all the things they can think of that I ve done wrong. When someone hurts us, we tend to make them all bad. Well, I ve got to tell you, there is no one all good, and there is no one all bad. Reframing is bringing the good and the bad because if I don t, I get so locked into all the terrible things they do, it s all I see of the person. And you see that. For instance, let s say I have a best friend, then something happens, and all of a sudden that best friend becomes my worst enemy. Before, I saw the good and the bad, and now I only see the bad and I don t want anything to do with them. You know, I m thankful, John, that God sees the good in me and not just the bad. Because if He didn t, we d be in a terrible predicament. JB: Yeah, we sure would, wouldn t we? If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. And again, back to the Lord s prayer forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. This really isn t up for grabs, is it? This is not optional; it s a must. DT: It is a must, because when I m angry, I m blinded. You ve heard the expression, Love is blind? Well, I really got in touch with that when my daughter had her first boyfriend. I looked at him and thought, What are you thinking? But when you re in love with someone, what s all you see in them? JB: All the good, wonderful things.

7 It Is Written Script: 1306 Seventy Times Seven Page 7 DT: All the good. And you don t see the bad. And anger is equally as blind. Because when I m angry at someone, I only see their bad; I don t see their good. That s why we cannot relate to the world or even another individual out of anger, because we will distort our picture. That s why I say forgiveness is reframing. It s getting the picture more accurate, more complete. JB: Do you think that forgiveness helps us to have a more complete picture of who God is? DT: Oh, absolutely. First of all, my forgiving others and understanding how difficult that is helps me not take God s forgiveness for granted. He went to Calvary so that I could be forgiven. I need to recognize that God struggled with that forgiveness. If it be possible, let this cup... But He chose. He stayed with His choice because He knew that the alternative to forgiveness is destruction. JB: So it s okay if someone says, I really want to forgive X, but I find it so difficult? It s okay? DT: That s reality. I tell people that if it s not difficult, it s not forgiveness. It s denial. To quickly forgive someone like it didn t happen is just denial. Forgiveness deals head-on with the struggle. So when I forgive someone, it doesn t mean I have to smile and say, The world is wonderful. I can forgive you and yet tell you, John, that what you did hurt me deeply. I m going to have to work to get over this pain, I m going to work to get over it, but I want you to know that I m not going to blame you. I m not going to come to the place where I believe the difficulties in my life are your fault. I m going to seek forgiveness so that I can live my life. And I want you to know that. JB: Forgiveness is such a powerful thing. Jesus encouraged us to forgive others, and every day we receive forgiveness from the God of Heaven. When it comes to the benefits of forgiveness, what are they and how do we realize them? DT: Well, that s the whole crux. I forgive because it makes my life better. I tell people, You can either complain and blame, or you can forgive and live. Because forgiveness, once it sets me free from the control of the past, then invites me to say, Where do I want my life to go? What goals do I want to set for my life? What do I want to become?

8 It Is Written Script: 1306 Seventy Times Seven Page 8 Or from a spiritual perspective, What does God want me to be, and how do I get there? So it releases me from the past to give me an open playing field for where my life can go. JB: Let me jump in on that. There are people who aren t realizing/achieving what they should be realizing/achieving in their life because they can t forgive? DT: Yes. They re trapped. And when you live in the past, by repeating that story over and over again, then your life repeats itself. So a year from now, I can be in the same place I am today because I haven t broken that chain, I haven t released myself. And forgiveness is the way to freedom. It is the way to peace. JB: What would you say to somebody watching us today who s saying, Yeah, but I m dealing with a really big thing. This isn t you backing into my car. My child is disabled because of someone s negligence, or someone has taken away my livelihood through a job layoff. Something of that gravity. This is the big stuff. What would you say to that person struggling with a forgiveness issue on a subject like that? DT: Well, I can share from my own experience. I went to work one day and my boss called me in, and I thought, What s this about? And I must admit, I had that little adolescent feeling, of when the principal calls you into his office. I thought, I must have done something wrong. JB: I m familiar with that. DT: Yes. But I didn t know what I could have done wrong, and so I went in. My boss didn t look me in the eye, and had a sheet of paper on the desk, and read to me a script that went something like this: As a result of the reengineering of this organization, we have eliminated some positions, and your position is no longer a part of this company. You will pick up your final paycheck today. Thank you for your service. Good day. And that was it. I walked out of there devastated. My world was turned upside down. Now, I know there are different events that turn different people s worlds upside down. And one of the facts of life is, no matter how much you suffer, you can always find someone suffering more than you. We should thankful for the blessings we do have by the grace of God. But for me, that turned my world upside down. My life and my work were so intertwined. I loved my work, and now I couldn t come back to work the next day. So

9 It Is Written Script: 1306 Seventy Times Seven Page 9 I remember going home that evening and having to tell my wife, who had just quit her job to start her schooling, and my daughter who was just going away to college, that our world had changed. What was devastating about that was how it gripped me. You know, you expect that in a week or so I d start applying for jobs and just move on. But I couldn t move on. I was frozen, I was angry, I was bitter, I felt betrayed. These were not only my bosses; they were also my friends. They just threw me away. And I couldn t get past that. My health began to suffer, my blood pressure went up, I was putting on weight, I wasn t exercising and I wasn t eating properly. My mood had changed. I was always a very optimistic, cheerful person, but now I was withdrawn and bitter and didn t want to talk to people. My spiritual nature had changed. I struggled to go to church because I didn t know how to face people. I was a failure, so how could I preach the Gospel when I was failing? My whole world spiraled down. I had people tell me, Dick, get over it. Move beyond. But I didn t know what to do. I was experiencing anger and the dark side of anger, which is depression. I was out of control until finally a friend of mine came to me and said, Have you tried forgiveness? I thought, I went to seminary; I studied forgiveness. Why didn t I think of that? But you know, that changed my life, and today I m doing a job I love and my family is happy and together. I have a life I didn t think I could live because forgiveness released me from that bitterness so I could find a better life. JB: This subject of forgiveness is central to the Gospel, isn t it? DT: It is absolutely central, from Genesis to Revelation. It s what changes our lives. It is a gift that God has given to us, to forgive one another and to receive God s forgiveness. JB: Dick, in South Africa a number of years ago, there was this remarkable Truth and Reconciliation Commission to help South Africa get from apartheid to the postapartheid era in a somewhat healthy fashion. And South African President Nelson Mandela had some remarkable things to say about forgiveness. DT: Yeah, we ve been talking about forgiveness at an individual level, but here we have it at a national level. You see, Nelson Mandela knew that, over the years, all the suppression that took place if that was released all at once, all of that anger, hurt and bitterness would come crashing into the streets with looting and killing.

10 It Is Written Script: 1306 Seventy Times Seven Page 10 And so he knew that if this transition was to make the government stronger, forgiveness would be necessary to deal with all of the hurt and anger. In fact, his close friend, Bishop Desmond Tutu, said this: Without forgiveness there is no future. JB: If that was true for South Africa, it s certainly true for you, me and anybody watching or reading this today. DT: Absolutely. JB: Without forgiveness there s really no future, is there? DT: There is no future; there s only reliving the past. JB: I just can t thank you enough, Dick, for taking the time to join me today. I know that many people watching today are going to have their lives transformed. They ll take what you ve put together what the Lord led you to and apply it in their own lives, and they re going to be free and forgiving and forgiven. DT: It ll change your life. Forgiveness is the one thing that changes everything. JB: Amen. Let s pray together. PRAYER: Father in Heaven, I thank you so much that you are a God who forgives. We thank you that the Bible tells us assures us that we can come to you with all of our mess and baggage and all the stuff, and know that you ll forgive us freely. I pray, help us to be forgiving people and to experience the blessings that flow when forgiveness takes place in our lives I thank you, Lord, for this time, knowing that you will bless greatly as a result of it. We pray this together in Jesus name, Amen. It Is Written Box O Thousand Oaks, CA USA Tel: (805) Fax: (805)