Minnesota Historical Society

Transcription

1 TAPE~ <8'B 'i -2 INTERVIEW WITH CHRIS Saint Paul ORB (Oriental Ruthless Boys) 20 year old Hmong American Interviewed by Kate Cavett Hand in Hand September 10, 1996 and August 13, 1998 at Saint Cloud State Correctional Facility You know that I am going to interview you and that I'll be using the material for various educational purposes. Is this okay with you? Yup. Yes it is. How old are you? I'm 18. And tell me a little bit about your early history, you know, where you were born and kind of give me a little early history up until when you first became exposed or first heard about gangs. Well, I was born in Spencer, North Carolina; and we moved up here. I guess I was alright, an alright kid for a little bit. And then we just started going out with the wrong people and I was hanging around them and they started doin all kinds of stuff like smoking weed, and breaking into cars, whatever, just for the heck of it. You know we don't get nothin out of it. We still do it just for the heck of it How old were you when you started hanging around with the wrong people? Ah, about 11 or 12, then I started seeing my brother's friends around. And they were all gang members, and I started hanging around with them, hanging out the basketball court around with them and I just got hooked on all the stuff they were doin. What gang were they in? They're the Cobras. They're much older than me. How much older? Let's see, when I was 12, they were in their twenties, or 18 or 19 and up. 1

2 ~ Chris 2 So you're brother's a member of the Cobras? He used to be, but after he went to California, did some time over there and came back, I guess he just settled down and quit everything. So your first exposure to gangs was when you were about 12 and it was through your brother's involvement? Right. Right What kind of things did he do in the gang? Urn, I don't really know. He never talked about it or nothin, so I don't really know what he did. I'm pretty sure he did the same things that I did. What was interesting about the Cobras? Nothin really, I just thought they looked, half the stuff, they were cool like that and just you know hangin around, not doin nothin, doing things they were doin, just trying to get a reputation and all that. I don't know, I just thought it was cool then. What kind of reputation did you want? I wanted to be known as the toughest guy there is, you know, I wanted everybody to fear me, and like I thought it was respect for awhile. I thought fear was respect when nobody would mess with me. But I know now that it isn't, so. How did you learn that it wasn't? Well, respect means that people will, ya know, when you walk by people will say hi, shake your hand, ya know, if something happens to you, ya know, maybe they'll help out, you know, or they'll feel, they'll feel something for you, ya know. But the fear I was looking for was ah, fear is just, they don't care what happens to you, ya know, if you get shot or something like that, good, I hope he dies whatever, you know. They don't really care about you, ya know. Respect, they care about you, fear they K: don't, you know. Have you ever gotten respect from anyone? Ah, I'm sure I got respect from some people. I mean since I started changin a little, ya know, I started givin people respect, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people didn't give me respect back, ya know, cause I learned how to respect people now instead of pushing them around or threatening them or whatever, ya know. What were the things that you did that created people to fear you and

3 Chris 3 show you, acknowledge the fear that they had for you? Well, me and my friends used to go around just beating people up, doing drive bys, shooting at people. Every little thing, I would always go home and grab a gun and come back and shoot at them or whatever. I think they got some fear in them, I guess. Let's go back, when you were 12 and you were hanging around with the Cobras, did they have like a junior organization for 12~year olds? Not really, I was the, I was pretty much the youngest one there, so I was just hanging around playing basketball and everybody was all there, I was the youngest one there. What was the first gang~related thing that you did besides playing basketball with them? Well the first thing I ever did was jumped some guy from a rival gang, like 15 or 20 of us jumped like 4 or 5 of them. Yea, that was the first thing I ever did. What did you think and what did you feel after that? I was a little shaky at first, but then you know it did seem kinda fun but I don't know, we hurt him, we hurt him pretty bad. And I felt kinda sorry for them, they didn't know they don't know, they didn't know what happened to them ya know. But I don't know. This was a rival Asian gang. Right, rival Asian gang When did you first join a gang? You know, you were hanging out with the Cobras, but were you initiated into them or were you considered a Cobra? Ah, no I wasn't considered a Cobra. I was just, I guess they considered me as a friend. I guess some of the older guys they considered me as their little brother and stuff, but I never really joined them, but when I first joined a gang was when I was in junior high school, about 7th or 8th grade. What gang did you join? Ah, I joined, we started up the Junior White Tigers. What did the Junior White Tigers look like? What do they look like? Yea. I mean, how many of you were there? Urn, what did they expect you to do? How much involvement was there from the older White Tigers? Well it wasn't that many of us. There was about 3 or 4 of us, that's it. But they didn't really expect nothin from us. Ya know, all we did was hang,

4 KG: G: KG: KG: Chris 4 hung around, ya know, just tagged along with them, see whatever they did, ya know, it was like whatever they'd do we'd follow them, ya know. That's all it was. Did you have an initiation ceremony into the Junior White Tigers? No, it was mostly, for me, it was all mostly walk ins, but we did initiate a few other people. How come you got to walk in? I'm not sure, I'm not sure. When did you first start using chemicals? About junior high, too. Just started taking acid, smoking weed, drinking and all that stuff. KG: Was all this part of being part of the Junior White Tigers? G: Not really, we just, cause everybody was doin it so I guess I did it, just to see, just to see what it felt like. KG: What did it feel like? G: It didn't feel too good. The marijuana and stuff, I didn't, I didn't really like that. You know I smoked for it for two to three years straight, ya know, every day. It took a lot of money, ya know, made me tired, and the liquor and stuff, it was alright, ya know. I didn't feel as bad as the marijuana. But it did make me feel pretty good. And ah, acid and stuff, it was pretty fun. But lookin back at it now it's kinda stupid. I coulda gotten a lot of stuff, ya know, while under the influence of all that stuff, but luckily I didn't. KG: Where did you get the money to buy that weed? I'd get it from my parents sometimes, and sell stuff like stereo equipment, whatever, whatever I could get my hands on I'd sell, ya know. Did you do robberies to get some of it? Pretty much. We would go break into cars and stuff and steal a lot of stuff and., G: G: G: What ages were you smoking marijuana? What ages? Ah,about12, 13,or14. At what ages were you drinking alcohol? About 12. And acid? Acid was about 14. I started when I was 14. The last time I did it was like a year and a half ago. When was the last time you drank or smoked? The last time I drank was I think, New Year's Eve, still smoking now, so

5 Chris 5 (laughter) Does that help the time go faster here? Yea it does, it kills, it helps kill time, ya know. We're in our cell most of the day and there's nothing really to do but smoke, I guess to get rid of your frustration and stuff, ya know. It helps me, it helps me sleep too. Is it more expensive in here? It is really, cause we only get paid 40 cents a hour and, ya know, and they're still selling it pretty much like usual, $2.00 a day for a single pack and it still costs a lot compared to the outside, in here, I guess it costs a way more in here, ya know. How long were you a member of the Junior White Tigers? I was a member for say a year. I wasn't with them too long, ya know, so... Did they have initiations, a particular initiation ceremony? I mean you got to walk in but. No, all there was was just, ya know, close friends, whoever your close friends are, ya know. Just walk in or whatever If there's somebody we don't know comes in and wants to join, then we might just jump them in for like 3,4 minutes, ya know. When, why did you leave the White Tigers? I left them because I guess, one friend went, one friend was with his uncle and them so he was going on the right track so it was just me and another, me and another one of my friends left, so. I don't know, I just said forget it, ya know. We're too small now so I, ya know, I just, I don't know, we're just too small, ya know. I didn't want ta keep it up no more so Ijust said forget it. I just went and hung around with my other friends, my cousins and them, so. What gang were they in? Ah, we were in no gang yet, but people used to come around and call us the Playboy Posse, or the Playground Posse, because we used to hang around the playground by my friends. And pretty soon we were just sittin around outside and started up a Hmong Mafia, I guess. So the Playground Posse grew into the Hmong Mafia. Right, right. How many, how many were in the Hmong Mafia? When we started there was about 7 or 8 of us, yeah. How many are still in the Hmong Mafia? Now I think there is about probably 15, 15 or 20, now. Are the original 7 or 8 still in the M&M's? Urn, me and my friend Enario, we're both out now, so, there's only, there's

6 44.43 K: about, what, 5 originals left. Chris 6 Fat Erin, Fat Erin you mean? No Fat Erin wasn't an original, he was a tag along at first. But then, I never let him in, so, he never got in until I got out so I guess they put him in, I guess. Because I had been told he was one of the originals Oh, no he's not. He just wants to be, huh? Right. Oh, okay. So, what kind of, when you were still the Playground Posse, what kind of things did you do, what kind of criminal behavior? Were you still smoking and drinking then? Yeah, I was smoking more then. I was smoking more then because I mean the one, my friend that's in there right now, he used to. I guess he liked that. He loved that stuff so, so we got money. We'd always go buy some and we'd smoke it every day, ya know. Every day we'd smoke about $30, $40's worth, ya know. Where'd you get the money? He'd get it from his mom, and I'd get it from my mom. And whatever we'd see of value in the house, I guess we would take it and sell it or anywhere we'd see something valuable we'd take it and sell it So you were stealing from your parents and you were going into other people's houses? Pretty much stealing from my parents. How did your parents react to that? I guess, they never knew it was me. They suspected it was me or my other brother, but they never knew until not too long ago when I told them all the stuff I took from them and all this, ya know. They reacted, they, I didn't expect them to react that way. I thought they would be mad or something, ya know, but they weren't, ya know. They acted like they understood what was going on and all that, and they forgave me, yeah. When you formed the M&M's, what, did you set up an initiation for people that wanted to come in, or how did you evaluate if somebody could come in or not? Well, when we formed it, we didn't really let anybody in, so. We were just pretty much us 7, ya know. We never really let anybody in there, whatever. But I guess we were just sittin around, but then one of my

7 Chris 7 friend's little brother, I guess, I don't know, he just started a junior M&M up too so. They started taggin along with us. There was a few of them too, about 6 or 7. What was the, kinda like the structure of the M&M's? Was there a leader, um? No, there wasn't a leader. Everything was just by majority vote, ya know. Seeing if everybody agrees to whatever we're gonna do, ya know. Cause we didn't want a leader because we couldn't make up our minds to see who would be the leader, ya know. So we just said we'd go on with no leader, just majority vote, ya know. Did you have rules or literature that you were going to organize the gang around? We did have rules, but nobody really followed it or nothing, ya know. We were gonna, because I guess I told them the word Mafia doesn't mean gangsters or nothing, ya know. Mafia means, ya know, you supposed to make money, ya know. Dress properly, not wearing your pants half-assed sticking out, but we were gonna supposed to cut down on all the drugs, too, but I guess nobody could so, all the rules were broken. So we just said forget it, ya know, do whatever we want, just ya know. Just whatever, we just backed each other up, so. How many drugs were you doing like a day, a week? A day we'd smoke like I said $30, $40 worth of weed, once in awhile we'd take acid, like once every three weeks. And sometimes we'd drink, and all that. If you were about making money, what were the business enterprises that the Hmong Mafia was involved in? Um, just pretty much breaking into cars and stealing stuff and selling it and selling guns and stuff. Where'd you get the guns? From a gun shop robbery. So you'd, you'd break into gun shops and steal the guns? Right, right. How many times did the Mug Mafia do that? Ah, only once when I was in there, I only did it once and everything went pretty quick. Where could you make more money, cars or guns? I'd say guns 'cause everybody wants, everbody wants a gun now ya know. That's where you sell the guns for $200 to $500, ya know. That's where

8 Chris 8 most of the money comes in. So how is the money handled? I mean if, did the money go into a central pool for the whole organization, or did individuals get the money? The individuals got the money, spent it on whatever, ya know. Like I don't know, we were just spending money like, it wasn't important, ya know. Like we'd spend this and get some more later, ya know. It wasn't important, ya know. cause we didn't work hard for it, so. I guess it didn't mean nothin to us, just something to spend to get somethin for us, ya know, whatever. Were you in school then? No, I dropped out. How old were you by now? Urn, still a freshman, about 14, yeah. So you dropped out of school when you were 14. So days kind of consisted of smoking once Well I slept most of the day. By the time I'd wake up school would be out. Then I would just go outside, and go to my friend's house and everybody would be there, ya know. So it's hangin out, alcohol or acid once in awhile. Did you smoke blunts or joints, or bowls or.. Smoked pretty much everything, blunts, bowls, joints, ya know. How often would the Mafia go out on a business expedition? Pretty much almost every night. Only some of us would go and some would stay. I guess the people that'd go do the theifing and stuff, they'd only take the people that I guess they'd trust, and whatever. Most of the other gang members left behind. Was it always the same ones that went out thieving? Pretty much. How many years were you in the Mafia? I was in for about 2-3 years. Kind of like 14 to 17? Yeah. Why did you leave? Well, I left because, they were doin a lot of stuff I didn't like and cause when I was in there we didn't have problems with anybody, but they'd always go around and pick on people, ya know, like mess around with anybody, ya know. And that wasn't really, I don't know, I wasn't really

9 Chris 9 happy with what they were doin and plus, I don't know, one day, one of them came around to my house and I guess you could say he disrespected my house or some stuff. And that's what gets me the most like when I get disrespected and stuff, ya know. But he was going through my mom's stuff, and goin through the whole house like it was his, ya know. So I kicked him out and he came back in and said, ya know, that's how it is, you want to go to war? And I looked at him and I said, ya know, we're in the same, we're in the same set, but, ya know, if you want to, we can, ya know. So I closed the door. He tried kicking the door down. So I went and grabbed a knife. He came back around. I opened the door, tried stabbing him, but the knife was pretty dull so it just punctured his stomach just a little. Then when I tried to go for his throat, my brother, my older brother came, grabbed the knife away, pushed him outside, and me and my brother just beat him. So after that I guess everybody was pretty mad at me, after that I left, ya know When you left, what did you do? Ah, when I left I just stayed home mostly. Stayed home, just went out and played soccer, ya know. And hung around some guys from, that owned a nightclub and stuff, ya know. We had a little singing group for awhile. What kind of music did you sing? Zacobella. And you sung it at what nightclub? Fantasia. Were you any good? I guess we were alright, alright for amateurs. So how long were you in the singing group? We were pretty much off and on, ya know. We'd wait for like special occasions like the New Year. We'd practice and sing cold songs there and pretty much whenever we wanted to sing. I guess we just got together, ya know. We were, I guess we were doin alright. We didn't, when I was with them, we didn't do any criminal activity or nothin. But we were still drinking and I guess they were smoking weed, cause I had quit then. But then they were smokin weed and we were still drinkin constantly and just goin out, staying out late, goin to restaurants, whatever. So you were still out of school? Yeah, yeah. I was still out of school. So you were at Johnson when you were a freshman and you quit then? Right, right.

10 Chris 10 So now, did you feel like you got kicked out of the M&M's, or you just kinda left? KG: G: KG: G: I just kinda left, because I did time for some guns too when I was an M&M. Pretty much after that I didn't hang around with them that much. But I was out with them once in awhile until that fight happened. So after that I felt like I left, ya know. I didn't feel like I got kicked out or nothin. Where did you do time? KG: G: At Boys Totem Town, did longterm up there. KG: Mr. Russ? G: Yeah, Mr.Russ. KG: Who was your primary? G: It was Mr. Reed for awhile. But then after he left, it was Mr. Russ. KG: Walter Reed? Yeah, Walter Reed, right. KG: I saw him a few weeks ago. You joined another gang? Well, I didn't really join for awhile because I have a few friends in California. He came down, I guess he moved down here. I was pretty much hanging around with them for awhile. We didn't get into any criminal activities right away, but we just hangin around at pool halls, going to restaurants once in awhile, hanging at his house, going to parties together, ya know. I was with them, I was hangin around with them for about a good six, five or six months. Then he asked me if I wanted to be in, I was thinkin about it for awhile, but then he said, he just said that I was in. He said that I could just walk in, ya know, cause they knew me. So he just pretty much let me walk in, so.. Which gang was this? It was the ORB, Oriental Ruthless Boys. How long have the ORB been around? Well, they've been in California since I think '88, '89. They've been around for awhile, but they not from Minnesota. They started up '94 or '95, somewhere around there. KG: So you just got to walk in? Right KG: If anybody else wanted to join the ORB, could they walk in or is there an initiation ceremony? We did initiate a few people, just jumping, ya know the same thing, just

11 Chris 11 jump em in. F or how long? With them, it was about two to three minutes. Now I know there aren't any girls in the M&M's. Are there any girls in the ORB? Ah, in California there is, but not in Minnesota. I think there's a few now, but I'm not sure. I just been hearing from people that there is now, but I'm not sure. Do you still consider yourself an ORB? No, no. After I did this, ya know, I thought they were my friends and stuff but, once you're locked up or somethin, they turn their back on you, ya know. They would just say, you're in here and they're out there and they're gonna forget about ya, ya know. I don't know. I know that there are lots of gangs in prison. I know that the traditional black gangs are real active in prisons. Are there Asian gangs in prison? There are some. There's about one or two that are active in there. And they still, they still want to do their gang bang and stuff, claim their colors or whatever, their names or whatever. There're still some in there. Do you have to be in a gang in order to be safe? No you don't. All you have to do here really is just, ya know, respect others and they'll respect you, ya know. Because pretty much they require people out here, ya know, people to give more respect to you than the people that are, ya know, talkin, ya know, talking too much or trying to K: K: act hard in here, ya know. Yeah. Does the ORB have colors and symbols and signs? We have signs but we don't have any, we don't claim any colors. All we claim is just Hmong pride. All we claim is our pride, so. What are the signs of the ORB? The signs are (like that) ORB and it would be Right So you write that on things? I never wrote anything on anything, but the other ones did. You said you didn't have any colors that you particularly used. No, no colors. How long were you in the ORB? I was in about, almost a year I'd say, almost a year to a year. What was life like in the ORB, what were the kinds of things that you did?

12 Chris 12 It was a little bit more organized. But you know we collected money, ya know, we had a bank for a while, ya know, collected money every Saturday whatever, had meetings every Saturday. It was pretty organized, but me and my friend and this other guy we were the oldest and everybody else was younger, so, but it was alright though. But the younger kids, they liked to fool around a lot, ya know, and that did get on my nerves, but, ya know, I let it slide cause they were younger, ya know, and I understood how they, I understood, ya know, cause I was like that when I was younger too, ya know. So were you and your friend and this other guy kind of the leaders? Pretty much, pretty much, yeah. So you'd call the meetings and you'd run the meetings? My friend called the meetings and, ya know, ran the meetings and stuff. 53 K: Were like there names for the different people? Names like? Names, like in the GO's there are lieutenants and there are violators and. No, all we had were just shot callers, I guess, ya know, shot callers in every state to call the rules and whatever, ya know. Just tell, ya know, if somebody, if the shot caller wants somebody to do a job right he just picks out the people and tells them to do this and that, whatever, ya know. Were there rules or literature that came in from California? There wasn't literature, but I think there was some rules. Yeah. Tell me the story about how you got here in St. Cloud. Well, I guess since I started hanging around with the ORB's and stuff, the M&M's got mad, ya know. I don't think they really got that mad, but they were mad ever since me and my brother beat the other one up, ya know. And he fled, he moved to South Dakota for awhile. But when we came back everything started ya know, comin back at me, ya know. They all started comin since I got arrested for the guns they wanted me to pay for it, ya know and... They wanted you to pay for... For the guns, then I got arrested for it. Pay the M&M's for the guns that you got arrested for? Right, right. Is that standard procedure in a gang? No, no cause usually, ya know, the guns holds sets, ya know. But if somebody in the set gets arrested with it, ya know, that's the end of it, ya

13 Chris 13 know, you lost it, ya know. You got arrested with it, ya know. That's it, ya know. But I guess they just brought that up to add more to it cause me and my brother beat their other member up, so they were pretty mad and everything was cool until that night at Fantasia Nightclub, about ten or twelve of them tried jumping me over there, ya know. And I guess they weren't too successful so they plotted something else and, ya know, tried to come back at me, ya know. I joined, me the ORB's and some 612's, we'd like get together and talk about it and ya know I'd tell em we could just mediate this, ya know, just talk it out, ya know, call a meeting with them. So, we had several meetings, ya know, with them, with the White Tigers to back them up I guess, ya know. I was with the 612's together. We mediated. I gave em some money and I gave em some stereo equipment, ya know, but I guess since I did that, they wanted more. They think that they could push for more, so they kept on doin that until that night they came over to my house and told me if I wasn't goin to give them any more stuff, start givin them guns, they gonna, I guess they wanted to beat move up out there, ya know. And there was, well, four of them that night. So I said I wasn't givin em nothin more, so I just locked the door. They started bangin on the door. When I got my dad's rifle I just came and shot some warning shots through the door and they all took off, so I was scared then cause my parents weren't home then, but they were goin to be home that night and I was afraid that they were gonna, the M&M's were gonna go back and get their guns and come shoot my house up, ya know. And I didn't want to put my family in danger, so I called my friend up, told him to take me to the 612's house and get em and they just come and sit in my parking lot and wait for them to come, ya know. So my family won't be in danger or nothin. But when I got over there they were still over there, they were over there talkin to em, ya know. The M&M's were over talking to the 612's? Right, right. I guess they came out of the car smiling and saying, ya know, why did you shoot at us, you wanna die, or this and that. The guy that died came out of the car and said, ya know, something like, ya know, if you were to hit the car, I'd kick his ass, ya know. And I was already mad then cause they came and disrepected my house, ya know. And that really flared me up. Plus the grin, the smiles on their face, whatever, got me even madder, so I guess I just lost it there, just took out my gun and shot him. Did you think you'd kill somebody?

14 Chris 14 No, I never thought I would. I thought I'd maybe wound him or somethin but never thought I'd kill him. What happened when you realized you hit him? I was stunned for a little bit, but then I was only stunned for a quick second cause when I shot him I saw the bullet come out slow motion, fly and hit him in the stomach, ya know. That kinda stunned me for awhile, but then the temper took over again, and I guess I just fired more shots at the other two while they were running and stuff. Then what happened? Then, I guess the 612's came and grabbed me and, ya know, asked me what I was doin and I said, ya know, I said forget all this talkin and stuff, ya know. It's been gain on too long and, ya know, and nothin else helped so I don't know, I just lost it, so I just turned around and walked away, walked down the street. I guess they came back and picked him up and put him in the car, and they drove to the hospital and I saw them leave, ya know, with them. After that my friend came and picked me up and just thought of a way to get out of the state Did you leave the state then? Yeah, I left the state for awhile. I left the state in October and I came back around December. So there was a warrant out for you all that time? Yeah, there was a warrant out for me. Why'd you come back? I came back because I had to get some clothes, whatever, get some of my stuff so I could go to the other side of the state, ya know, or the other side of the country, cause I was coming through anyway so I might as well stop in there and get my stuff, ya know, try to get some money. How did you get arrested? I guess I stayed too long. I stayed till about January 19th. I ended up staying longer cause, I guess when I came back I went and got my girlfriend and she got pregnant and everything just fell apart and then I didn't know what to do. So are you a father? She had an abortion. How was that for you? In a way it's alright and in a way it's bad, ya know. You know it hurts me to know that I should be a father but I'm not cause she killed the baby. And part of it's good because I never wanted her to raise a kid like this COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint PaUl, MN ===

15 Chris 15 anyway, ya know. KG: How did the police happen to find you? Did they know all along it was you? G: I guess cause after that night, two M&M's told on me, ya know, they said that I did it and a few, a couple of the 612's said that I did it too. And I guess when I ran, that convicted me right there already, ya know. So I guess I was there, we were there too long and my brother's wife's sister and them would come over and I guess some of her friends saw me so I guess they went and told the M&M guy that died's brothers so they went and told the police and I guess the police came and arrested me then. KG: What was it like when the police were at the door? G: I was kinda glad it was over, ya know. All that running, I didn't get no sleep, no nothin, ya know. I just constantly running and moving, ya know. I was kinda glad it was over, but then I was kinda mad that I got caught too, ya know. I was just thinking how much time I was gonna do, what am I gonna do, cause when I was on the run I was just thinkin ya know since I did it, I'm probably gonna do life anyway, 40 without parole and stuff. So I said if any cop gets in my way, ya know, I'll make him do something to shoot me, ya know, so I can just end my life instead of doing time in prison. I guess every time I said that, God's never let it happen, ya know, so I guess they got me, they came when I was sleepin, ya know, and I just said, ya know, forget it. I'll just go do time since I did it, ya know. KG: What is the sentence? G: 258 months. KG: How much is that? G: 21, 22 years. KG: When were you first exposed to guns? G: About, I was about 12, 13 KG: Did you have a gun most of the time from then on? 58 G: I didn't start carrying one till I was about 14, 15. KG: Did you carry guns most of the time after that? G: Up to the time I got caught. After that I didn't really carry one that much no more till something popped off so I'd just run home and grab it, ya know. KG: How many times did you do drive~by's? G: I'm not really sure. It was a lot of times. KG: How many times did you shoot at people and never hit anybody?

16 Chris 16 How many times did I shoot at people and not hit anybody? It was most of the time. I guess I never really did hit anybody before. Five,100? Oh I don't think 100 but I'd say about 10, 15 times. Did you ever think about that you could hit somebody? Yeah, I'd think about it, but I guess back then I just thought that if I hit somebody, ya know, I hit somebody, ya know. I guess it was just his day, ya know. So it didn't really bother me that much. It sounds like lots of anger was going on right then. What was that all about, Chris? About all the anger and stuff? It was about me being disrespected. I guess it was a little bit of, ya know, how your parents yell at you for this and that. And I guess that makes me mad, too, but I guess I'd just go out and take that out on everybody I guess, ya know. But they'd yell at me just for, ya know, just to tell me to be good, ya know, not abusing me or nothing, I was just, because I know I did wrong, ya know, but that still made me mad. Just went and took it out on everybody It sounds like disrespect is real important. Yeah, I guess it is. I don't like to get mistreated or nothin, ya know. When people talk to me I want them to, ya know, just look at me, ya know, and not try to look through me or nothin, speak to me like I'm a person, ya know and not no animal or anything, ya know, cause really people talk to animals like they're real people, ya know. They look right at em, and ya know, whatever. Then some people they talk to you like, ya know, you're nothin, ya know. I could just shoot you right now and get it overwith, ya know. I don't like you. You're nothin, ya know. I know that this country is a very racist country. Do you think that some of the sensitivities that you have about disrespect are because of the racism you've experienced? Yeah, I think I do because when I hear the wrong words come out of like a white person or a black person's mouth, ya know, I would usually go off on em, ya know. Like, if I didn't have a weapon or nothin I'd start hit, ya know, beating him up or whatever, ya know. If I had a gun, I'd start shooting at them or, ya know. If I had a stick I'd beat em with it, yeah. What's the earliest experience of disrespect you can remember? About 6th grade. Some kid said that, said that if it wasn't for them, we wouldn't be here and all this stuff and I don't know, just putting my people down and stuff, ya know. I guess I challenged him to a fight, ya know. I

17 Chris 17 never sho'hed up. I didn't show up. White kid? Yeah, a white kid. 1:00.01 Are you very grounded, or are you very in touch with the Hmong culture? Pretty much in touch with it. I know, I know all, ya know how the 'Heddings go, how the funerals go, ya know, and so forth. I know pretty much about it. Do you respect the Hmong culture? Yeah, I respect it. Respect is very important in that culture, isn't it? Correct, right. Your respect and reputation is important in this culture. In the Asian gangs, you talked about having meetings, it sounds like, kinda like so much meetings happen and negotiations bet'neen gangs, that's my impression. Am I correct? C; What was that? That there's like meetings, you know like the ORB will ask for a meeting with the M&M's. You know, where do you have these meetings? We'd have it like at parks while 'He barbeque, at my friend's house while we'd barbeque or sit back and drink or whatever. So there's a lot of alcohol or marijuana taking place at these summits or the negotiation meetings. Not really any marijuana but drinking, yeah. The day that you committed your crime, were you high or had you been drinking or smoking? I was sober. I was sober. I knew what I was doing, but I guess I just couldn't control myself, just 'Hent off on them, ya know. Have you had a chance to do some anger work? Not yet, but I'm still waiting for an opening in the classes. Is that something you want to do? Yeah, it's something I want to do. How do kids get out of the Hmong gangs, I mean we've talked about your brother's out of the gang. Do they have to be beat out or what are some other ways that you can get out of the gang? Can you just say "Ok, I'm out now"? 1:01.07 You can stay out by, you can get out by, ya know, just not going out, hang in around with them no more. And I guess some people do get jumped out, but if you don't want to go that way ya know, just stay at home

18 Chris 18 and do what's cool, ya just disappear really, ya know. Just disappear. I guess you just can't do the old things like you used to, ya know, like go to parties or whatever, ya know, you just gotta disappear for awhile, ya know. What about getting married? Yeah, that helps a lot too, but sometimes, some people gets married too early, and I guess it doesn't really work out, ya know, cause I, I got a lot of friends that were married and now they're separating, ya know. They're back, they're all back into that stuff, ya know, back in that gang banging stuff. What have you learned from all of this, how have you changed? Excuse me? What have you learned? How have you changed? Um, I learned that gangs just keeps ya in the same spot, ya know. You don't get ta go to get no education, get no job, pretty much you're out there killing yourself, ya know, with all the drugs and all that stuff and sittin out there you catch a bullet, whatever. There's only two ways ta go when you're in a gang, ya know. You're either in prison, ya know, or be in a coffin, ya know. There's only two ways, but I changed because it's senseless, ya know. There's nothin in it. All you do is go around hurting people, pretty soon, because my parent's aren't gonna be around for long, ya know. And once they're gone I can't count on nobody no more, and I guess I'll just be a bum on the streets pickin garbage, ya know. Do you have any regrets? 1:02.12 I have a lot of regrets, ya know. ever joining a gang, ever starting hanging out, ever startin smokin and just everything, I guess. What can you do to make it up to you? Get me a good education, get a career goin, ya know, so when I get out, ya know, I could get a good job. Can you go to college here? Yea, I'm still waitin for a class now, 2 months. I should be takin it pretty soon. St. Cloud State? Excuse me? St. Cloud State has got classes for you? Right, right. What are you going to study?

19 Chris 19 I want to be a child psychologist or counselor, ya know, help them out, because I know what they been going through. I know, I been there before, ya know, and some kids think that whenever their parents yell at them, whatever, ya know, it's like they think their parents hate em or somethin. I wanna help them with their problems, try to prevent them from, ya know, following the same path that I did, ya know, try to prevent that. You've been through a lot. What could have prevented it for you? One of the things that we're looking at is what can we do, what programs can we create, what can we do to help kids not get into gangs? Well, I guess I just need a positive, ya know, environment, need to be around positive people, ya know, I mean not be around people that are like nothin but school, ya know, but pepole, ya know, people that know how to have fun, ya know, and avoid all that criminal activity and stuff, that gang stuff. Like, I mean, people that had programs like camping and all that stuff, but I don't really see that stuff helpin cause people, I guess the guys just really go there to meet girls or whatever. The only way to help is just try, to get somebody, just positive people ta hang around with. So how do you find positive people to hang around with? 1:03.25 That's pretty, that's kinda hard, ya know, there's not that many around, ya know. It takes, I guess some people it takes places like this to change em, ya know. And some people come here but still don't change. Guess the ones that really change is the ones that, ya know, think right, ya know, that get tired of all this childish gangs, and stuff, the senseless beatings and shootings and stuff and so when they get beat up real bad, ya know, catch a bullet and survive, ya know, that's... How do we teach young kids about true respect and that most of what they do is only about creating fear? What could somebody have done or said, or what program could you have been in that would have made a difference? Um, I don't know. That's a hard question, ya know. It's mostly kids, words go in their ears and out the other end, some just close the door there and bounces right out, ya know, it doesn't never go in. I'm not really sure. After the incident with the M&M's, and you did time in Totem Town kinda left, if there had been some type of a program with a lot of support, do you think it would have helped you stay out of the gang or going back into the gang?

20 Chris 20 c: It might have, but I'm the kinda person that, ya know, whenever there's, whenever I'm out on the streets, ya know, I don't, I'll go to that place a few times, ya know. I'll go there a few times, but pretty soon I just end up quitting, ya know, just say I'm on the streets. I got better things ta do, ya know, gotta have my fun, whatever. 1:04.30 If you could design a program, what kind of a program would make a difference, would have made a difference for you? What would you need? That's a hard question, too. I'm going to ask you to think about those, okay? And see if you can come up with any other answers. One of the things that we're looking at is designing a program. Some of the things we've thought about to help is like teaching more indepth, and to teach about specific culture. Another thing we've thought about is helping people to tap into their creativity and like teaching if somebody likes to write poetry, doing poetry and doing artistic abilities or dramatic abilities. Do you think something like that could have tapped into you? That, that might help a few, might get into a couple of their heads, ya know. Probably change a few, not many, maybe one. One's good enough, well it's not good enough, but it's good. But a lot more would be better. Well, you've got the answers. See, I don't think the professionals have the answers. I think you kids have the answers. And I guess I challenge you to think what the answer might be; and as you get ideas, look back. What could help me change? What could help me have not gotten into it, to come back and give me that information so that we can design something, cause I don't think I can design anything, I don't think there's any professional that can. I think you kids can. What else should I ask you that I haven't? 1:05.26 You've asked me pretty much everything. KC; How are you feeling now, about being here for a number of years. I feel, I feel like, sometimes I feel like I just don't wanna do all this time, ya know. Just try to do something to end it. But most of the time I just plan out, make my goals, plan out what I wanta do when I get out, ya know. There's a lot to think about for that, ya know, so. I'm mostly thinkin about that. CK: Thanks, Chris

21 Tape INTERVIEW WITH CHRIS Saint Paul ORB (Oriental Ruthless Boys) 20 year old Hmong American Interviewed by Kate Cavett Hand in Hand Wednesday August 12, 1998 ROOM TONE Background noise and DOORS Chris 21 Chris, you're working with the kids up here, those that aren't here as long as you to help them get out. So, you're an expert on helping kids change their attitudes and wanting to leave the gang. What do you do, how are you helping them? I don't know what questions to ask. Basically what I'm, all I'm really doin is helpin em boost up their confidence, ya know, like bein there in a room with peers an ya know they see me as a old gang member or whatever an their always tellin me about, ya know, the bad stufff about em, ya know. I mean like, oh I don't ah, I'm not good in school an I can't read, whatever. An, my mom an dad this, my mom and dad this. An I'm tellin em, ya know, I'm jus helpin em boost their confidence up, ya know what I mean. Like, ya know, your mom whatever, ya know, your mom took care of you when you were little, ya know, if you don't care for your mom who's gonna take care of her when she gets older an ya know, your mom's doin this for a reason, whatever. Your dad's doin, whatever he's doin, for a reason. About, for school, ya knowwhat I mean, the only reason why ya don't know is cuz you're not goin ta school, right. If you, the more you go to school, the more you learn. Ya know, I mean, you jus can't learn jus by sittin there an ya know watchin TV an whatever, ya know. An, (unclear) I mean, I'm pretty sure as soon as they start goin there, they'll start thinkin - wow, ya know what I mean, I'm learnin somethin I never known before, ya know what I mean. Here I am writin a letter an I've never known these punctuations or nuttin before an here I am puttin em down, ya know what I mean. An I know where ta put em in the right spots, ya know. Yeah,I seen a lot a these kids that come in here, ya know, it's jus the same thing over, ya know, every single one a them, it's jus the same. Ya know what I mean. They complain about the same things. It's either about ah, I don't

22 6.48 Chris 22 care, I wanna be tough an all that stuff an I give em insides on the future, ya know what I mean. Cuz, all these kids don't, they don't really look on the future. Tomorrow's as far as they look, right. An, I try ta feed em some stuff about ya know, you're gonna have or kids, ya know Wlat I mean. It doesn't matter, you might be young now, but as you look down the road if you keeps actin like this you're not gonna have a future at all, with no family no kids. I dunno, be in the Hmong community it's, when your parents get old they get passed around from house to house an stuff, ya know what I mean. I talk to em a lot about, ya know, if you don't have money how's your mom gonna live an how you gonna take care a your mom when your mom took care a you, ya know Wlat I mean. I mean, how would you feel, have your mom and dad get moved down from house ta, ya know, to your brothers to your sisters to your aunts to your uncles to your, ya know just passed around the family, ya know what I mean. I don't think they're objects, they're the most precious thing here on earth, your parents. I can't see how people can treat em like that, but... 1 ask em questions like that. They give me feedback an they think about it over night an then the next day or whenever they come back, ya know, they're - yeah, I see what yer talkin about, ya know, I mean I wouldn't want my family gettin passed around like that or ya know my mom and dad get passed around like their objects an stuff. I jus, ask em a lot a questions like that ya know. Do you find it takes a long time, I mean they're here with you in the house. You have kind of a stable... it seems like a lot of the Hmong kids are in your house. Right. Right, they are. So, and as professionals I observe that, you know, I have a conversation with a kid and I want him to change tomorrow. I mean does it take a long time for you to keep asking the questions and feeding and repeating? It does, it takes, it takes awhile. It takes awhile, cuz they're young, hardheaded an I'm probably still hardheaded myself, ya know. They're hardheaded an yajus gotta keep askin em over an over again, ya know what I mean. An, as far as bein in (unclear) day they have time ta think about it ya know. Bein (unclear) on the streets they'd be constantly out playin wid their friends an they ain't got nothin ta think about. You might ask a question out there, but like they said it goes in one ear an out the other, ya know. How old are you now? Bout About 20 he says.

23 Chris 23 Turnin 21 by the end a this year. You know your culture. You know Hmong culture right? I know, I know pretty much. Not a lot, but I know. Were you born here? Yeah, I was born in North Carolina. A challenge I 'M)uld throw out to you, is to study more about Hmong Culture because you have the time to study it and learn it, and you can teach that, along with American Culture. It's my observation that in this country a lot of your friends want to become American, but Americans don't see them as Americans, so they don't get treated the same. It's important to be proud of being Hmong and American. And, I think it's going to take kids of your generation to set the model on how you can be both. From what you know about Hmong culture, and I know that your community is in a lot of pain over all the kids in gangs, how do we integrate? What are some ideas of things that we can do to be preventative so that the kids don't get into gangs, the Hmong kids? 9.4- Well, you could like do things that, put together things that they like, like me an some a the guys talk an I dun no, maybe a gang task force could put together, you know, just a big party one night, ya know, before school or after school party an invite all gangs, ya know what I mean, jus all flags down. An jus do stuff they like. I'm pretty sure, eventually the ones I know I would think will change, the ones that, ya know, there's a few hardheaded ones that'll take awhile, but the more everybody do, we do more things they like an I'm pretty sure they'll change In a way there's nothing wrong with gangs, it's just the violence and the crime. Exactly. It's you could say everybody been sayin (unclear) whatever's protrayed on TV they try ta act it out, ya know what I mean. Like whatever gang movies, they'll come out an... I've seen it, I didn't believe in, believe in that it was TV at first ya know, I dunno, I have seen in some a the people out there, I mean like you can be watchin this gang movie an when ya get out, somebody jus act it out, ya know what I mean. I dunno. I've been told that one of the ways to learn English is to watch TV. So if you watch the violence on TV to learn English does that mean you learn American way by watching the violence? Probably so. It's most a these kids that are jus comin over here from

24 Chris 24 Thailand or Laos, ya know. I mean the majority of em are gettin in gangs right away, bein that they see - Oh, wow, look at all these gang members they got, ya know. Another ways a way for me ta get girls, ya know what I mean. Get girls, maybe it's ta be cool an so I won't be called a nerd an, ya know what I mean, an thas the most thing, they hate bein called nerds. I dunno, I guess thas how they see themselves gettin girls or whatever, ya know. What about you, is there anything that could have been done, cuz you had kind of left the gang if I remember right, and then you went back. Is there any support that could have been given to you when you left so you wouldn't have gone back? Well, for me it's jus, it's pretty much my own choice here, cuz um, I dunno, it is kinda hard when yer (unclear) ya know what I mean. Have friends ever since yer little an grow up wid em, ya know what I mean an jus cut em off an not, ya know, hang around wid em. It's kinda hard, but after I (unclear) I went back, cuz it's an off an on thing ya know, an I was hardly wid them, I was there once in awhile an I was more worried about, ya know, who am I gonna get married to, what am I gonna do fer a job, my education, ya know what I mean. So, thas the only reason why I, ya know I went back ta school an I had a steady girlfriend then, too an I guess I was jus mostly with her, hardly... 1 see em once in awhile, I hang out wid em like maybe three times a week, maybe ya know what I mean. But I guess the second time was, it was, it was my choice ya know what I mean Yeah it was your choice, but my challenge is; how do... it seems like there needs to be more support when kids are kind of walking away, to support the healthy choice of walking away, and that we're not doing that. Is my observation right? It is right. Yeah, but I dunno it's. I spose if, if they walk away an you gotta show em somethin, ya know somethin better like, like the young guys these days they jus hang out in a parkin lot. No money, no nothin. Whenever somebody's hungry say -let's all scrounge up.99 fer a whopper an there'll be 10 a us an we'll jus share one, ya know what I mean an I spose ya show em a better life, ya know what I mean, like a cuz they're lazy... ah they're not lazy, but they wanna be lazy an they hate hard work, ya know what I mean an I mean they pretty much hate work period, but I mean if all their friends are workin in one spot, they pretty much do whatever, it's a laid back job an ya show em a good like, ya know what I mean - hey, here ya go, ya know, stary dressin em out them scrubby ass clothes ya know. Here put on this