Oral History Collection

Transcription

1 1 Oral History Collection Transcript: BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER, INTERVIEW 2 of 2 Interview Date: 6/21/2002 Interview Conducted By: GARY MACK with STEPHEN FAGIN and DAVE PERRY The following interview is part of the Oral History Collection of The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza. The Oral History Collection preserves personal recollections regarding the life, times, death, and legacy of President John F. Kennedy. The interviews also provide insight into the cultural history of Dallas and the impact of the assassination. The Oral History Collection includes the memories of eyewitnesses, local law enforcement, local and national members of the media, civic and political leaders, White House officials, Kennedy family acquaintances, Dallas schoolchildren, filmmakers and researchers, Parkland Hospital personnel, and others related to the events of November 22, These candid and informal interviews provide future generations with a tangible link to the past. All oral history videos and audio recordings are available for research and may be viewed by appointment in the Museum s Research Center. Transcripts of select oral histories are available upon request for research. As an ongoing program, the Museum continues to actively record and transcribe oral history interviews year round. For more information, to schedule a research appointment, to request a research transcript, or to volunteer for an interview, please contact Stephen Fagin, Oral Historian, at OralHistory@jfk.org or call , ext This transcript is unrevised and may contain typographical errors. This transcript is intended for personal research and reference only. Any further reproduction or distribution of any portion of this transcript must be specifically authorized in writing by The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza. To request citation information, contact OralHistory@jfk.org. Please include contact information, project title, reason for citation, and approximate number of lines to be cited.

2 2 Oral History Interview Buell Wesley Frazier Interview Two June 21, 2002 By Gary Mack with Stephen Fagin and Dave Perry Researchers Note: Buell Wesley Frazier previously recorded an interview with The Sixth Floor Museum on June 19, (0:00:00) OK. Here we are, Friday morning, June 21 st, We re back at Dave Perry s house in Grapevine for part two of our oral history interview with Buell Wesley Frazier, and we re here on this second day because our light went out on Wednesday (chuckling). So, we called it day, and here we are back again. I m Gary Mack, the curator for The Sixth Floor Museum and with us is Stephen Fagin, our oral history coordinator, and Buell Frazier. Thank you for coming back, Buell. Oh, well, thank you very much for having me (smiling). All righty. Let s see if we can pick up pretty much where we left off. We were talking about the interrogation sessions at the Dallas Police department the afternoon and evening of the assassination, and you were telling telling me about they really grilled you. I mean, they really questioned you. Do you do you remember some of the questions they asked, and what they were trying to find out? They were trying to find out if if I was involved with Lee Oswald in the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and I don t remember the questions exactly. But they were over and over. One two officers would come in and interrogate me, and they would go through the questions several times. And during this while I was doing this they had me looking straight ahead into the wall. I couldn t left look left or right. I just had to answer them, and when they would tire or decided that they couldn t get any more information out of me, then they would leave the room. And then two more detectives would come in, and they would begin to interrogate me. And it was the same questions over and over and over, and after numerous hours, they finally realized that I was telling them all that I actually knew. When was the first time then that you realized how you were connected other than just taking him to work taking Oswald to work that morning? That first occurred to me when I was arrested out at the hospital where I was visiting on that Friday afternoon with my stepfather when Detective Rose and Stovall arrested me and took me downtown

3 3 Did they actually for questioning. Did they actually arrest you or just say, Come with us. We want to talk to you. Or? They didn t put me in handcuffs because I remember I requested that. I said, I won t be any problem. I said, Just don t handcuff me and embarrass me in front of my stepfather. And they I did they followed that request, and I had gone downtown with them. And once downtown, then the interrogation or trying to find out what my involvement was, if any, to what extent. And that went on, as I said not to be repetitious for quite a few hours. Did they actually pull out the handcuffs, though, when they first talked to you out at the hospital? I think they I think they had thought about it. I knew I know they have handcuffs, but I requested that they not do that. And I think when they realized that I was actually quite harmless, they agreed to go along with that. him that morning? Did they ask you about Oswald and whether he had anything with (nodding) I m sure they did. They asked quite a bit about Oswald and and the work we did at the Texas School Book Depository and and the route that we took into work that morning and so forth like that if it was any different than others, and basically, if we talked about anything. And if we did, what did we talk about? And I told them generally what I ve told you the the most things you comments you could get out of Lee was about his child or child that was unborn and the weather. And he wasn t he wasn t a big talker. When when did it first occur to you or when did someone first make you aware of the possibility that the rifle may have been in your car on that trip into work that morning? (0:05:09) That was made clear to me when when they began their interrogation of me, trying to find out what I knew, if any, about the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Well, how did they how did they get into that? What made them pursue that line of questioning? That I do not know, but I do remember that they asked me if Lee had brought anything to work with him that morning. And I told them, yes, he had

4 4 brought a package and that I asked him what it was, and he told me it was the curtain rods that he told me that he would be bringing to work the day before. And the package story is one of the stories that you ve had to tell over and over and over again over the over the years. Yes. But we need to ask you to tell it one more time (chuckling) as best you recall. When you first saw Oswald out at your house that morning, did you see a package at that time? (0:06:12) The first time I saw the package was when I opened the car door, and as I was sitting down, I glanced over my shoulder, looking at him. And I I saw out of the corner of my eye that something was laying on the backseat, and that s when I asked him, I said, What s that on the backseat? And he says, Remember? That s the curtain rods I told you that I had come out to get that I was taking back to hang the curtains in my apartment. And that was the last that he and I had talked about it. I didn t think anything else about it. The size and shape seemed like it might be just what he said? Yes. Only getting a glance at it and not actually looking at it real thorough, I ve often described that the package was in the area of of two feet, take an inch or two one way, either way. And that s about the best I can describe the package. It was made out of brown wrapping paper that you could buy anywhere and is quite common in companies that do where they package and mail out packages to customers, regardless of the type of business that they have. And the tape and so forth that they used at the at that time, that we used there at the Depository or even in a business today is very similar. it? So, when you saw the package, you saw paper and some tape on Yes. As you know, people have written about this many, many times trying to understand what kind of paper it was. In other words, it s my understanding and please correct me if I m if I m wrong is that the paper is was not like what you would get at the grocery store. That is correct. The type of paper we re talking about that this bag was made out of is paper that is usually sold through wholesale outlets to packaging places such as Texas Department or Texas School Book Depository would buy to wrap and package their packages for in order to prepare them for shipment that both the post office and UPS or whatever packaging service that you would use to mail that.

5 5 bag grocery bag? So so, in other words, it s thinner than a regular old shopping I wouldn t say thinner. I would say it s probably of a stronger quality a more of a commercial-type paper package also? OK. that is often is dispensed off of rolls of various widths. OK. And your sister, Linnie Mae, she saw the bag she saw the Yes, she saw the package because she was at the sink washing doing some washing of some dishes, and he she noticed him as he walked across the the street that ran beside the house there since they live on a corner lot or they lived on a corner lot at that time. And she noticed him as he walked across the street. And how did she describe it to you? I mean, at some point, you and she must have started talking about this. Well How did she remember it? (0:10:05) Well, I can t speak for my sister, but I can tell you this: We never actually sat down and talked about what each of us had seen, but on our trip up to the Warren Commission, I know we had to make numerous bags from just our memory of what we of what we could recall. And it was really amazing how, they said, how close we came to each bag was the same as the other. So, they derived that that what the bag that we made for them was pretty close to the replica that they had. Have you have you become aware of the controversy involving the bag and how long the rifle was and things like that? Yes. I know a lot of people is is wondering actually what I did see, and what was inside the bag, I don t know. All I know is what I was told, and as I said earlier, doing working with Lee, Lee was always a very sincere-type person with me. And he never gave the impression that he would not tell you the truth, and so therefore, when he told me that it was curtain rods in there, I didn t I didn t have any reason to doubt him. When you guys were on the way into work that morning, what was his attitude like? Was it different in any way from previous trips?

6 6 I m glad you asked that. No, actually, Lee was the same as he always was. He was very quiet, just observing, watching the cars, and as we drove along. And the that morning, when we was driving in, the day was kind of overcast, cloudy. It was kind of misty early in the morning. So, there wasn t anything about what he said or did that was in any way out of the ordinary? (shaking head) No, he acted as as perfectly normal as he had if we d of had some way could have taped some of the things we talked about or or his reactions to our short conversations, I think people would really be amazed at how really bland he actually was. And and as I said not to be repetitious he wasn t a big talker, and he would answer you if you asked him something. But it was usually one or two sentences. Let s go back to the bag just for a minute. And we re almost thirty-nine years after the fact, and I m sure a lot of this is still pretty in your mind. But you have to people will always wonder if you ve picked up something over the years and blended it into your own story. The controversy about the bag is that when the rifle is fully assembled, it s about forty inches long. You and your sister, in the early days, always indicated that the bag was a little over two feet twenty-six inches, twenty-seven inches, somewhere in there. Give or take an inch, like you said. When you take the rifle apart, it s, what, thirty-four, thirty-six inches in length, something like that quite a big difference. I mean, that s the shortest it could possibly be. Uh-huh. So, the conclusion is that either the rifle was not in the package, or that you and your sister were mistaken. How do you how does one resolve that, or is there a way to resolve it? (0:14:06) Well, I m not sure if there is any way to resolve it. I can only tell you what I had actually seen, and I know the things like what you ve discussed about the length if you if you should break down the Carcano rifle that the barrel is a certain length and the stock is a certain length. We ll really never know actually what was in that bag. Did he have a rifle in it? I don t know. And is there any way that we could be certain after this amount of time to solve that? I don t have an answer for that. I wish I did, and I wish I could I could just say right out, Well, it was this and this or that was this way, but only seeing something for just a very small amount of time and not knowing at that time how important the short time that you had to look at it was going to mean later on and how much significance it would be on that, I m sure a lot of people has come up with their own conclusion. But I would like to assure you that my sister and I are telling you the truth and actually of what we have seen. Now, whether one wants to believe that or not, that s up to them. But I know what we did see, and that s all I can tell you.

7 7 The other time you saw the package was when Oswald was walking ahead of you toward the building? Yes. And you described that to the Warren Commission. Could you repeat that one more time what you saw and how that came about? Well, as I said, that morning, he got out of the car, and I sat there for a couple of minutes and before I got out and turned the car off and got out. And he was walking ahead of me, and he was carrying what I could see was cupped in his hand under his right arm. You mean, cupped like in the palm of his hand? Yes, yes. And people has tried to say, Well, it would be sticking up past his shoulder. (shaking head) Well, the package that I witnessed him carrying didn t stick up past his shoulder, and and there s another question: Are you sure? Well, all I can tell anyone is what I what I actually seen. I was as I was walking along, I was looking at the crossing, walking across the railroad tracks. I was watching the cars and so forth and the train, but my eyesight is very good. And I know what I did see. Did you wear glasses in those days? No. I only wear glasses today to read fine print. The doctor that takes care of my eyes, he says that most people would love to have my eyesight, even at my age today. So, if anyone says, Well, could he see that far? Yes. I could I could see that far, and it was very clear. But again, not knowing how significant that was going to be explaining what I actually did see from the back of Lee Oswald that s all I can tell you, is that it was cupped in his hands, and I didn t see anything sticking up over his jacket. He was wearing a jacket that morning? Yes. Was it a dark color or a light color? (phone ringing in background) Oh, gosh. It s been a long time. I don t remember the color (phone stops ringing). I think it was and I could be wrong I think it was a more more of a brownish color, but I could be wrong. OK. After the assassination, you went let s see, wait. Let s talk about what you did for the rest of the weekend. In other words, you told us earlier that

8 8 you didn t leave the police station until like after midnight that Friday night, so they drove you back home. What happened the rest of the weekend? (0:19:11) OK. We didn t get home until actually Saturday morning, the 23 rd of November. Actually, I just stayed in the house because after going through what I had gone through, it was something that I think anyone at any age but I was only nineteenyears-old a boy from a small Texas town, all of a sudden thrust into the limelight of the world and being asked key questions about involvement and what did you see? and why did you do this? or where were you? It was something that I quite wasn t ready for, but ready or not, I had to do it. And I did that, and I was quite tired. And I think, if I remember correctly, I slept kind of late that day. And then during the day, I think we learned of some way that that the police had taken into custody a man with a highpowered rifle and a scope. And when I heard that and that was only a short distance from where my sister lived well, I then became scared and I decided to stay in the house. And I stayed in the house all weekend long. I didn t even go out of the house. name at this time. morning? This was someone the police picked up out there in Irving? Yes. Did you ever hear a name? I think eventually the name was released, but I don t recall the OK. Well, that takes care of Saturday. Where were you Sunday Well, Sunday morning, actually, I was in the kitchen, the same place I was (chuckling) on Friday morning when Lee had come down to the house. I was in the kitchen and eating my breakfast, and we were watching the they were we was watching the news. We had the television on, and they were getting ready to move Lee Oswald from the place that they had him at that time. And on while we were watching, we witnessed through television Jack Ruby shooting Lee Oswald. What was the reaction, and what were your thoughts at that immediate your immediate thoughts? Well, I I was kind of sad to see that because knowing what I knew at that time, I was hoping that we could clear this all up. By that way, Lee would be able to stand trial, and we would find out if he was actually guilty of assassinating President John F. Kennedy or if they had the wrong person. What did you think? Did you think he did it?

9 9 Well, I ve been told a lot of things. I ve read a lot of things. But I ve never been completely convinced that Lee Oswald did that. And I know that if you sit on a jury and in a courtroom and listening to a trial, and if someone is trying to or being prosecuted and trying to get a conviction a death penalty I could not vote to put someone to vote by whatever method, whether it be lethal injection or or electric chair or whatever method the state would use, I could not do that unless I was 100% absolutely sure that that individual did that. If there was a fraction of a doubt in my mind that there s a possibility that we don t have all of the facts, then I couldn t do that. And Oswald didn t fit that? (shaking head) No, not to me. What was it about him that made you question? (0:24:10) The thing that I ve asked myself and I don t have a degree to substantiate this, and I m sure there s been some people, somewhere in some time, that have done something similar to this but on a smaller scale that have been guilty but maybe got away with it on but my theory or basis is, is listening to the children as they spoke of him, his kindness and usually, when you find an adult that is kind with children, I m not saying they can t become a murderer or assassinate someone, but I think it s highly unlikely because I don t I just don t think unless they were very desperate or put into a situation that they had no choice. And I know that there s probably people that will listen to what I have to say and and disagree with me, and if you disagree with me, that s your privilege. That s because we live in America, and that s one of our rights here in this country, to be able to think for ourselves. Now, sometimes what we think may not be correct, and we could be correct on some things but wrong on something else. But after all this time, I m I m not totally convinced. And that would have been the interesting thing if if Lee had been able to live, and we could actually have gone to trial. We wouldn t be sitting here talking about this now because we would probably would have solved and got the correct answer. What do you think the correct answer really is? That s that s a very good question. I m not sure, but I think it would be very sad if we have, after all these years, have said this man assassinated John F. Kennedy and he didn t. Did he or did he not? I don t know, but I m not convinced 100% that he did that. And if he d of been able to go to trial, I think it would have answered a lot of questions, and hopefully, we would have come to the to the right I don t like to use the word assume, but I we would have found maybe the truth because as each day goes by and each year passes, the chances of us ever finding the 100% truth of who actually assassinated John F. Kennedy is the chances of finding that out gets it goes it gets slimmer and dimmer as each passing day. testify. If there had been a trial, you would certainly have been called to

10 10 (nodding) Yes. One of the little known stories is that you and one or two other employees of the Depository in the days before Kennedy s arrival actually had brought rifles into the Book Depository. Can you talk a little bit about that? I mean, you had a what was the name of the rifle that you had, a British 303 Enfield or something? (nodding) Yes. What was that what was that all about? (0:28:35) Well, first of all, I never I never took any rifle to work. I think someone has said, well, or asked, did I ever take a firearm to work? Now, someone asked me that back some time ago, and my answer was, now, maybe someone did bring a rifle to work to show off to show it to someone because they were proud of it. But to the best of my knowledge, I never was I never witnessed any of that, anyone bringing a rifle to work to show maybe what they got for their birthday or Father s Day or something like that. That, I don t know anything about, and I certainly never took any firearm into the Texas School Book Depository. The stories let s see. Of course, as you know, there are a lot of things that are written in some of these books that are just silly. Yes. Nonsense! No basis in fact. That apparently is one of them. The the only other name that I recall was, I want to say Roy Truly, but I may be incorrect. And this was, like, three or four days before the assassination or earlier in the week. What s intriguing about the story about you and your rifle is that the early news reports had different descriptions of the rifle that was found (Buell nods). Some reports said it was a German Mauser and one report said it was a weapon made in Argentina. But some of the reports also named a British 303 Enfield rifle, which is the kind of rifle that you had. (nodding) Yes. And I wonder how word got out? I mean (to Stephen) Whoops! Did we lose the light? Stephen: Uh-huh. <break in tape> camera. OK. OK. All right, we re rolling again. Put in a new light for the

11 11 You were talking about three or four days before Yeah and and with Mr. Truly. and the British weapon was mentioned by name, and it just happened to match the kind of rifle that you did have, although you re explaining that you never did bring that into work. But obviously, the name came from somewhere. Did you let me think here. Did you talk to any reporters at all that first day? Department. Not that I know of. OK. So The only body I talked to were people with the Dallas Police Did you mention to them that you had a rifle? (nodding) I m sure sometime during their questioning, they knew I had a rifle because they had gone out to my sister s before they came to the hospital. And I had a British 303 Enfield rifle, and I also had a double barreled shotgun, a 16 gauge. It was a 1891 Stevens. Sad to say, both of those the rifle and the shotgun were stolen, and I no longer have them today. I had loaned them to my sister, who had lived in the country, and they did not own a firearm. And at that time, she was they had some cows, and and you could see the wolves on the hill not too far from the house. And so, I loaned her my British Enfield 303 rifle and the shotgun, and I said, In case you go down looking for the cows down you get off so far, I said, you need to be sure Because at that time, they had quite a heavy wolf population in that area, and I said, Mainly, they attack young calves or sheep. But I said, If rabid or extra hungry, I said, you never know. They might they might corner you. And I loaned the rifle and shotgun to her, and some years later, I was going to use the shotgun to I was thinking about going duck hunting. And that s when she informed me that they were both gone. Where was she living at the time you loaned her the stuff? She was living out east of Dallas. I m trying to remember because they have lived several places out in the country aside from Dallas. Well, somewhere out in East Texas? (nodding) Yes.

12 12 her? OK. How long after the assassination did you loan these guns to Oh, it was it was it was some years after that. OK. Back to Sunday. Oswald is shot. An hour and a half or so later, he dies. He was buried the next the following afternoon right about the same time President Kennedy was and about the same time as Officer Tippit was. I assume you watched all this on television like everybody else, or did you did you not? (0:34:30) I watched the I watched on television the burial of John F. Kennedy, but to the best of my knowledge, I think Lee s burial was kind of private, and very few people were invited to that. Officer Tippit I m not sure whether I watched that or not. I do not remember whether that was on TV or not. him? Did you know by any chance, did you know Tippit or know of No. The first time I I learned of Officer Tippit was during the news after the assassination of John F. Kennedy. And how bout Jack Ruby? Didn t know him either. I learned of his name in the same fashion, through the through the news. Had you ever been to his club, or were you aware of his club? I did not know he owned a club in downtown Dallas until after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and correct me if I m wrong, but wasn t the name of the club the Carousel? Yes, uh-huh. OK. After the police finished questioning you that first night, did they later come back to you to ask more questions? (0:36:15) No. When I left early Saturday morning to come home, I m sure they may have asked me questions briefly but not to anything to the extent that I had to go down back downtown Dallas because I was still working at Texas School Book Depository, which is located Houston and Elm Street. And if they needed to speak with me, then it was only a short way from their their workplace that they could come down and check with me. But not to my knowledge. And what was it like working at the Depository after the assassination? I assume everybody came back to work on probably the day after the funeral for Kennedy, so that would have been Tuesday. What was what was the atmosphere like working in that building at that location?

13 13 Well, I think a lot of people was shocked. They they were hearing all this through the media in forms of newspapers and television and news, and and they were they just kind of were in disbelief that someone like Lee could do something like that. And everyone had their own opinions, which is no different then as is today. Opinions are like noses. Everyone has one. Whether your opinion is correct or or better than someone else s, I don t know. Well, of the folks that you worked with, what did most of them think? Were most of them convinced that he did it, or were most not convinced? Well, I I think if you would have taken a poll at that time, I think you would find it was kind of a mixed reaction. I mean, were any of your coworkers saying things like, That s just impossible. He could not have done it. Or were others saying, Absolutely. For whatever reason Well he did. What? I answer you like this. If you worked at a place and and some employee or coworker that you worked with and something of this nature had happened which I hope never happens again in this country or anywhere, as far as that matter of fact, but certainly not to an American president I think you would find some people might say, Well, he was quiet. That kind of fits that kind of fits the bill. And someone said, Well, I m not sure he could do that, or He never gave me the impression that he was that type of person. I think I think the reaction during that time right after the assassination of John F. Kennedy as well as today, I think it would that there s a difference in time. But I think the reactions of people would probably be pretty well the same today as it was then. Did reporters start coming by trying to talk to people? I m sure they did. I know a lot of reporters tried to talk to me, and I thought maybe it was best that since I didn t have but one story to tell and the police had that I didn t see any reason in duplicating that. So, you routinely turned down requests? (0:40:00) (nodding) Yes. I had opportunities to appear on I think it was several popular television shows at that time, Talk show host-type that s much like there is today. And to be quite frankly, the reaction and of what happened in this country and the effect it was having on the world, I just didn t feel secure about going on somebody s show and talking about that. And and to anyone that is still in that

14 14 business, if you thought I snubbed you, then I owe you an apology. I just I just didn t think it was a proper thing to do at that time. I I thought that by staying silent and staying off the TV and not talking about that, I thought that was a that was just kind of a courtesy to the Kennedy family. So, you did you try to avoid the daily news stories about this, or did you follow it actively? I listened to things from time to time, and it s no different then and it is today. Sometimes, I walk into a bookstore and there s a new book out about the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Well, no disrespect to any author of any text, but usually, I start to read. And I ll pick the book up right as pretty well a lot of people do. I mean, when they re debating on where to purchase a book for reading, I ll read maybe two or three, four or five pages in the book. And usually by that time, I have lost interest because I ve already spotted discrepancies, and that bothers me. There s there is people that have written about this, and they say that they research and check things out. And that is not true. I m not saying all, but some of them what they do if you check their footnotes, they take their information from some other text. And no disrespect to any author or writer, but I think if you re going to write something, I think you need to do your research firsthand yourself. I think it will give much more validity to the article or the book that you re writing, and I think it would only it gets around amongst people that are quite well-read or up on current events, past and present. They can tell you authors that write decent articles or articles that are they tell it as it is. I know there s one, oh, person that I respect very much that writes articles. He s written articles for different publications. He has a current he currently writes for, I think, The Washington Post, and his name is Hugh Aynesworth. Now, I m not sure definitely about the paper that he writes for, but I think That d be that d be The Washington Times. Washington Times, OK, and he writes a the last time I talked with Hugh and by the way, I do know Hugh, and I really think he s a fine person. I did not know Hugh before this incident happened, in reference to the assassination of John F. Kennedy. It was quite some years afterwards that I had the opportunity to meet Hugh Aynesworth through a mutual friend of mine friends, Dave and Nicole Perry. And since then, we have become very good friends, and I have the highest respect and regard for him. Are there any are there any books that where you are mentioned that stand out as being especially wrong or incorrect? (0:45:06) Well, no disrespect intended. There s quite a few of those out there, and I often tell a story that if you as many books that have been written about the assassination of John F. Kennedy, if you was to take and literally tear the hardcover off of the book, the publication, and throw the covers over in one pile and the book in another, and ask a small child, two or three years old, Would you like to help me put these back

15 15 together? The small child, not knowing what book goes in what cover, would put one in there, and again, no disrespect intended to anyone you wouldn t really know the difference. When these when these books come out, do you look at the index to see if you re in there, and? Not particularly. I I usually find out about new books coming out on the market by by someone that by mutual friend might say, Well, there s a new book being published, will be on the market in the next two weeks. And often, they purchase the book, or they go to the bookstore with the intent to purchase it and do what I said earlier. They usually thumb through the book or maybe read a few pages here and there in the book to decide if it s really one they would like to purchase and and put in their bookcase. Let s go back to One day in the mail, I would assume, there came a letter from the Warren Commission. Do you remember that? (nodding) Yes. What was how d that all come about? Well, I got a little excited about that. I remember I talked to my sister and her husband about that, and I said, Well, I wonder what they want to know? Did did she get a letter also? Yes, she did. OK. And she and I did appear before the Warren Commission. Here in town or here in Dallas or in Washington? (0:47:36) No, they had us come to Washington, and we went before the Warren Commission. And I remember a the attorney that was representing the Warren Commission. His name was Mr. Ball. I think and I could be wrong I think he is deceased now. Is he not? I m not sure. I m not sure. Well then, if he s not, no disrespect intended and I owe you an apology, Mr. Ball (smiling). I remember him quite well. He was quite witty. I enjoyed the cross-examination with him. He s thoroughly was a very good attorney. And I enjoyed the time there in Washington. It was during the year when the cherry blossoms

16 16 were in bloom, and that is if anyone s ever been to Washington, you know that time of the year is beautiful in that area with the trees in bloom. They flew you in, and you spent the night. And then, the next morning, you wound up talking to them. Is that how it worked or? Yes. They yes, we left Love Field in Dallas, and we went to Washington. By the way, some of you may think this may be a little funny to you, but that was my first time to ever actually fly. And right before we got to Washington, it got quite rough. And being a small boy, I was always fascinated by planes as well as trains. And when I used to see one in the sky, I always asked myself, Well, I wonder where where they re going or where they ve been? And I used to say, One day, I ll be on you. And how little did I know, that would be true (smiling). But we we got out, and they took us to a hotel. And we stayed in a hotel, and they summoned us when they was ready for us to appear before them, which I think you are correct I think it was the next day that we appeared before them. And we were there for quite some time, and while we were there, they Mr. Ball, he cross-examined me as well as my sister, and we were not in the same room at the same time. So, I m I m not sure what questions he asked her. We probably conversed afterwards something in regard to that, but and we both we both had to make packages of what we thought the bag looked like, in reference to the bag that was on the backseat of my car. And we did that numerous times, and they were amazed at how we could be so close each time we made a bag. to reconstruct a bag? Had you had any idea before then that you were going to be asked No. Did they brief you ahead of time, saying, Mr. Frazier, this we re going to talk about this, this, this, and this? (shaking head) Oh, no. They strictly So, you just you just went into it cold? (nodding) It was strictly cold. And on something like that, I think you get your best results. Were did you or your sister have any impression that they were trying to steer you in any particular direction with their line of questioning or their tone of voice or anything they did? (0:51:42) No, not really. They were they were doing their own investigation of what actually what the Dallas Police department had done. It was kind of a replica. And so, the questions that they asked me, I wasn t alarmed or surprised, but we answered them to the best of our ability. And they were pleased with the results.

17 17 When you say, They were pleased The fact that they made you and your sister make several bags and they always came out about the same length, which according to the transcripts, was about 26/27 inches, the Warren Commission members had to have known that the bag wasn t big enough wasn t long enough to carry the rifle. So, they may explain why they kept asking you in different ways to Yes. to make this bag. Did you, at any time, feel that you were being manipulated or threatened or coerced in any way to make that bag longer? No, because what they they finally realized was that all we could tell them was what we actually knew. And I m the type of person that, you re not you re not going to make me admit to anything that I don t know. I m strongly strong enough mentally not to let someone coerce me or manipulate me into the channel that they want. After your questioning ended, were there any areas that you didn t get to talk about or didn t get to explain fully or or wish they had asked you? Well, now, after all this time, I wish they would have let me given my own true opinion of what I thought of Lee Oswald and my relationship to him on a professional basis as a coworker. They did not do this, and like again, I don t like to use the word assume, but evidently they must have thought that that was not important at that time. And I m sure that the questions that they asked me, even though in reference to you not to be going back repetitious about having to make the bags over and over and over, I never got the impression that they were trying to push me in a certain area. I was going to tell them what I knew, and that s all I could tell them. And they would have to realize or come to the conclusion that that s what I knew, and I wasn t going to tell them anything else. you still do. you still do. You liked Lee. You liked him then, and I get the impression that I like to what? That you liked Lee Oswald back then, and I get the impression that (0:55:11) Well, I don t hate him, and I hope that doesn t come across or offend someone. But when someone says someone did something, well then, I think they must prove regardless of how significant it is they must prove that 100%. What you think of an individual or or is, to me sometimes, you need to keep your personal thoughts to yourself, especially when in reference to someone if it s not going to do that individual any good. If someone asked me about someone well, my mother once

18 18 used to tell me that, if you can t say anything nice, you just keep your thoughts to yourself. Well, in this case, in reference to Lee Oswald, all the thoughts that I knew of him were nice. So, everything I told not only to the Dallas Police department or the Warren Commission was all that I knew about Lee Oswald, and to answer your question, I don t think badly of him. I just wish that and I know this may be a childish wish but I wish that Lee could have lived to stand trial. And by doing that, we would know a lot of the answers that we re looking for. After your Warren Commission experience, you and your sister come back to Dallas, and I would assume would have looked forward to a life of relative anonymity. You continued your work at the Depository? August of (nodding) Yes. How long did you work for them? I worked I continued to work for the School Depository until 65, and then you went where did you go from there? From there, I got another letter from the United States government where the president had selected me in the draft to serve in the United States Army. I had not heard that! So, you were drafted in 1965? (nodding) Yes. And in which service were you in the Army? I was in the Army. And what did you do, and where did you go? (0:58:13) Well, my first overseas assignment was they sent me to Germany. At that time, in 1965, Vietnam was a relatively new thing. It was called a conflict (chuckling). And I was reading something the other day, and it referred to the Vietnam War as a conflict. And I kind of laughed to myself, and I said, Well, the person that wrote this evidently must have been in a box, because as you walk around America, there s lots of men who can tell you that Vietnam was more than a conflict. It was a war, and it was a war that I think this country had a hard time accepting. And I don t think some people has ever really accepted it because it was kind of kind of a strange time. Some people at that time, some people, if you stopped in a place, they wanted to buy you a cup of coffee. Kind of a carry-on of World War II and the Korean War. And then, somewhere then in the same day, you could be walking along, and someone would spit on you.

19 19 Stephen: I don t want to jump around too much here. I need to switch tapes. Oh, OK. <break in tape> OK, here we go again. Brand new light in there, and off we go. We were talking about you being in the service. You served in Germany. When did you get out of the service? I got out of the Army in August of I did two years active duty, and I did four years reserve time. OK. Let me ask you this because I think one of things that is of interest to people that want to know about folks who had a close connection to all these events is when you meet new people, do you tell them your background? If not, why not? I mean, how many people did you meet that you told them about about Kennedy? I would and I would like in the 60s, a lot of people, it was on their mind, you know. Where were you when you heard that Kennedy had been shot? That kind of thing. So, I guess, what I m asking Buell is how have you dealt with being a part of history? (1:01:13) Well, I ve I ve chose to be real low-key. When people bring up the and sometimes, I ve been in places where people were talking about the assassination of John F. Kennedy. I just usually sit and listen. No one has never really asked me, Where were you that day? If they would have asked me, I say, Oh, I was at work. OK. Hold on a minute here. We re thirty-nine years after the fact, and no one s ever asked you, Where were you when Kennedy was shot? Not that I not that I can recall. If someone was to ask me, I d say, Well, I was at work that day. And then what would you have said because that person would have said, Well, where were you working? Well, if they would have come back to that, then I d say, Well, I work in Dallas in a warehouse. And usually, they don t ask after that. They usually because they don t they don t put they don t put my name together with the assassination of John F. Kennedy. And I love that because I like the anonymity. I have a time a little hard time saying that word, but the low-key is what I prefer (smiling).

20 20 How bout, let s see I m guessing, but I suspect you finally got a phone call or a letter or something from probably from Eddie Barker at Channel 4, asking you to participate in a CBS special about the Warren Report and the Kennedy assassination. Do you remember getting being contacted by Eddie or someone connected with that program? I remember Eddie Barker because I think, at this time, back in 1963, I think Mr. Barker was employed by Channel 4/CBS. Right. And he was their lead man when CBS out of New York would come down to Dallas. Mr. Barker would often kind of be in charge or kind of help the people that would come in from New York. He would help them. And I remember Mr. Barker. He was always very nice and courteous. I did see Mr. Barker a couple of years ago in Dallas at The Sixth Floor Museum. They were having a program there, and Mr. Barker was there. It was kind of it was a you can probably help me with this what it was actually, technically called, but I think it was kind of a roll-back to that time, an era, and the people that were, like, working at Channel 4 and the newscasters and what they were doing and what they ve been doing since then. Mr. Barker, he s retired. I forget when he retired from Channel 4, but it s been quite some years now, I think. And but his memory is still very good, and he was very pleasant to chat with. Well, he apparently talked you into appearing on that CBS special in What made you decide to do that? (1:04:38) Strictly, probably because of Mr. Barker. After meeting him and the way he treated my sister and I, I felt that he was somebody that I could work with and could enjoy working with and understood understood the position I was in. It was something that I wasn t very proud of then, and I m not proud of today that that I was associated with that. But you had to know that once you appear on television, then people will know who you are and what part you played. Did you hear from people after after the program aired? Yes. From time to time, there for a while, after I got a lot of requests for autographs or or to appear for them to interview me for a magazine article or to appear on a as I said earlier on a talk show host. But I declined those offers, as I said earlier, because because of respect to the Kennedy family, and simply, I was just scared. And it wasn t something that I was proud of being a part of, but the thing is, I was, so I ve had to learn how to adjust and live with that. What were you scared of?

21 21 As I said earlier, I ve never been convinced that Lee Oswald did that, and if there is someone or or were at that time was at that time, then I didn t want to be a person that gave the impression that they knew a lot of things because my ambition is to live to be a very old, old man (smiling). And and the pleasure of the things that I ve found in life since the assassination of John F. Kennedy is some of the people that I ve met along life s way. Have you had difficulties with your work career as a result of your connection to the Kennedy assassination and to Lee Harvey Oswald? (nodding) Yes, I have. I was with one company I won t name the company but I was with this one company, and I was in management. And and as they say a cliché they thought I was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I could do no wrong, and then during the time that I was employed by them, there was a research team that came to Dallas still working on the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Well, these men came to the place of business where I worked, and I did as well as I could to camouflage them as just being a customer. But my superior quickly learned that it was something else because the people would come back from time to time, or if they d come and I wasn t there, they d ask when I was going to be there. And one day, he asked me, he says, Who are those men? And I said, Well, I said, they re some men that work for the government. And I said, We have something that He knew I had been in the army and had been different places, and for a while, he thought it was about something in regards to my military career. And finally, I had to tell him that they were asking me questions in reference to the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Shortly after that, I was informed a very short time very quickly after that that the company was no longer interested in employing me. And I have lost employment. It says when you apply for employment, Have you ever been convicted of a felony? And I always say, No, because I have not. But some people in human resources and higher up in some companies have told me that I lied on my application, and I asked them, How so? And then, they bring that up, and I said, Well, you can check all the records that you like. I said, I ve never been convicted of a felony, and I wasn t convicted of anything then. I said, Being arrested and questioned in reference to is one thing but being convicted is another. And You were never charged with anything. (1:09:56) (nodding) That is correct. And so nowadays, I and so, I had to kind of change my pattern. I had at one time, I had a lot of high aspirations and that I could do a lot of things. But now, I m mainly employed from time to time places where and please, no disrespect intended, they really don t care where I was last year or who I worked for. They could care less. All they care is what I can do for them today, and I have to sometimes settle for companies like that. And it s something that I m not proud of, but that s something that I ve grown to accustom, that I have to accept. And sometimes, you have to play the hand that you re dealt and do the best you can. I wish my life had turned out differently. And someone asked me one time, would I rather have been somewhere else than Dallas, Texas, that day, and my answer is yes. Knowing what

22 22 I know now, I should have been at Sam Houston State College going to college. And that was my mother s wish, but I didn t do that. I came to Dallas and became employed at the Texas School Book Depository. And the rest is history. The rest is history, and I also add, knowing what I know now, since I didn t have enough money or didn t have a scholarship to go to college, I would have loved to have been in Wyoming working on a ranch. And if I had done that, I wonder how my life would have changed and be different. I m sure a lot of the people that I ve met and become friends with, that may have never happened, but that s life and and who knows what I could have become if if this if I had not been involved or associated with the assassination of John F. Kennedy? Hopefully, something will happen really nice to me in my life. I have had a few nice things. I ve been able to go to England for the making or the remake of the I think it was titled The Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald. It was. Let s talk It was a mock trial. Let s talk about that. I ll tell you what. Let s go back a little bit. The government s second major investigation of the Kennedy assassination was in the late 70s. Were you involved with that at all? Did did the investigators want to talk to you? Yes. Did they come down here, or did they fly you up to Washington? No, they come to Dallas. And that s where I said earlier not to be repetitious was where I was working with a company, and I was I was in management. And things were going quite well for that company, and they were opening branches. And I was going to be the next manager of a of their next branch they opened. But unfortunately, that never happened. So, your memories of the House Select Committee of Assassinations are tied in with losing losing out on a good job opportunity? Well, I think it cost me a chance there, and and who knows what else it s cost me. But I m not I m not angry. I just wish a few things had been different in my life for me. What were those investigators looking for?