Episode 2: Thoughts & Theories After Undisclosed Episode 2 05/10/2015 Speaker: Bob Ruff EPISODE DESCRIPTION

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1 Episode 2: Thoughts & Theories After Undisclosed Episode 2 05/10/2015 Speaker: Bob Ruff EPISODE DESCRIPTION Following the release of Undisclosed Episode & Addendum 2, Bob reveals the theory that he sent into Rabia, breaks down what he considers to be facts about the case, reads listener s and theories, then finally lays out his theory. Hello everybody and welcome back to The Serial Dynasty podcast. This is Episode 2 and before we get into the real content of this episode, I just wanted to take a few minutes and say a few thank yous. First and foremost, thank you to all of you listeners. I've been pleasantly surprised at the amount of downloads and participation that I've gotten from the listeners after Episode 1. Since I released Episode 1 last Thursday, I ve received lots and lots of s, tons of interaction on Twitter. There s a lot of interest in what we re doing here. So thank you for all that interaction and also thank you for all the downloads. I ve been, like I said, pleasantly surprised at the amount of support that we ve gotten from this. Secondly, I want to thank the team over at the Undisclosed podcast, Rabia Chaudry, Colin Miller, Susan Simpson, all three of them have been actively supporting on Twitter what we re doing here with The Serial Dynasty podcast. There s been a lot of interaction back and forth and also thank them for continuing to put more information out on Twitter. Just keeps giving more fodder for me to work with and for you to work with as we go forward with creating this podcast. And as far as that information goes, holy crap. It s been a crazy week. I have a fulltime job and a family but I've been trying real hard to refresh my memory about everything that went on with Serial. So I have re-listened to Serial twice. I ve listened to all of the Undisclosed episodes and addendums several times. I went through, re-listened to all of the Serial Serial episodes. I ve re-listened to all of the Serially Obsessed episodes. I ve re-listened to all the Crime Writers on Serial episodes. It s a good exercise to do that because as we get more information then you go back and listen to the information that s given when those episodes were released and you look at it in a whole new light. But admittedly, it s tough to keep track of. I have the voice recorder on my phone. A notepad. A note app on my phone. I m constantly trying to keep track of all this new information and try to keep it in some semblance of order in order to do this episode today.

2 So hopefully I won t be too scatterbrained. I m going to do my best to try to be somewhat linear with this episode. So here s the plan for today s episode. I want to start with answering a question that I've gotten over and over and over again on Twitter and . Everybody wants to know what the theory was that I sent Rabia in regards to Don that I mentioned in Episode 1. So we ll discuss that briefly first. Secondly, I want to lay out what we do know about this case. There are some things that I m at this point ready to consider facts that we know about the case, that I think are pretty darn close to being undisputable. So we ll go through the answer to the Twitter questions about my theory about Don. Next, we re going to cover the facts about the case to try to lay a bit of a foundation as far as where we stand at this point. After that, I want to spend some time and read through and discuss some of the s that I ve received over the last week. And again listeners, thank you for that. This podcast would not work if it were not for your participation and sending your ideas, thoughts, and theories. So, that will be a large portion of this episode. And lastly, I want to wrap the episode up with my theory on what happened on January 13, All right, so let s get right into this. I mentioned in Episode 1 that I had sent a theory to Rabia regarding Don. And that in Episode 2 it became irrelevant, which is why I am assuming it was not responded to or not answered. It really wasn t a big deal, but I got a ton of questions, tweets, and s wanting to know what the theory is. So, this was the theory. Looking through all the particulars of the case, the note that Hae had in her car really was sticking with me. The fact that it said, Sorry, I had to go, it mentioned the Randallstown wrestling match, and it matched the interview. Now up to that point, I think we had all just agreed and accepted for gospel the fact that that wrestling match and that interview all happened on January 13 th. So a portion of the theory that I sent to her was that I can t believe that the police and prosecutor and everybody involved is just giving Don a pass. Don is lying. Don said he had not seen her that day at all. When you read that note, to me, there s no other way to take that other than she had seen Don that day. It didn t say, Sorry I couldn t say hi. It said, Sorry I had to leave. Which meant she was with him, in my mind. So that was thing one. Thing two was the lack of attempts to communicate from Don after the day Hae Min Lee disappeared. And in Serial and Serially Obsessed and Crime Writers, it seemed like everybody was really down on Adnan for that. You know, everybody says, Well, why isn t Adnan calling her? He s good friends with her. But to me, it seemed the other way around. The suspicious one was Don. I looked at it as: Adnan is the ex-boyfriend. Adnan is dating other girls. This Nisha girl, which we ll get into the Nisha call later, that s a whole other thing. But he was seeing other girls, he hung out in the same circle of friends, he had constant communication with everybody around him. So when he got the call that Hae was missing, in my mind, putting myself into the mind of a 17-year-old high school kid, the call didn t say Hae Min Lee has been kidnapped, or Hae has been murdered, or anything like that. It just said, Hey, have you seen Hae? It s been a couple hours and nobody has seen her. 2

3 He isn t back at school after that. He s moving on with his life and his day. We don t know what the phone interaction was with Hae and Adnan the night before other than we know that he gave her his new phone number. So it seems perfectly reasonable to me that he didn t reach out to her. Then once they get back into school or they start to hear news reports or whatever is happening back in 1999, he s in constant talks. So he knows from her close friends, who are in touch with her family, that she s gone. That she hasn t turned up. She s officially a missing person. So on and so forth. Now on the flipside, you look at Don, he s the current boyfriend, who says he s in love with her. And Don gets a call on the 13 th in the evening from the police, the same call no doubt that Adnan got, that just said, Hey, have you seen Hae? She didn t show up to pick up her cousin at school. She didn t show up to work. It s been a few hours, have you seen her today? Now again, first and foremost, I m actually surprised that the police were even involved that early. I mean, typically, I mean, I've seen TV, I know how these things work. Typically, you have to wait 24 hours before they can file a missing persons claim. So here they are just a couple of hours after they realize she s not where she was supposed to be and the police are already involved. But I have to believe that that call to Don was, Hey, have you seen Hae? She didn t show up to pick up her cousin. Do you know where she s at? Don says, Nope, I haven t seen her. And then never calls her again. Now, putting myself in the mind of, I guess, Don was 20 or 21 years old, but you know, a young man with a new girlfriend and you re hot and heavy in love, it s the beginning of your relationship. And I get a call that they don t know where she and I get call asking if I've seen her. I haven t. Most likely right then I would be, going back to 1999, I would be paging her. Wanting to get in touch with her and find out if she s all right. I believe if I m remembering all of the accounts correctly, she had plans to go see Don after work that night, when she was supposed to get off at 10:00. So certainly, 10:00 rolls around and she s not there, I m sending that page out. I want to know where she s at. What s going on. Again, all he knows from the police is that she didn t turn up. It just seemed very, very odd and suspicious to me that he didn t reach out or try to contact her that day. Now the reason the basis of the theory kind of got debunked by Serial was when we found out that the wrestling match, nor the interview, happened on January 13, It appears it happened on January 5, So the whole note thing which makes Don a liar in my mind, means nothing anymore. That was from a week earlier and who knows what went on with that note. That s something that maybe we ll discuss a little bit later. The phone call thing still does bother me a little bit. It still seems really, really odd to me that you wouldn t make any attempt to get a hold of her. So I was under the impression basically from what I had heard from Serial that Don never ever made any attempts to contact her again and he had no contact with friends or family. However, last night I got a tweet from Brendan Kenny who tagged me in a screenshot of an interview with Detective MacGillivary and 3

4 Adnan and Hae s friend, Debbie. And in that interview, she clearly states that she did talk to Don. As a matter of fact, they had a seven-hour long conversation. So, that throws a whole new light in it too. That they talked for a long time. So he was in some communication with Hae s friends. However, from what I've seen just from that screenshot, and I m sure there s more, maybe Brendan after you hear this, if you can send us a little more information about it. I don't know when this conversation took place. Was this after she was found dead? Was this the next day? When was this going on? Who called who plays into that as well. There s a big difference between Don calling Debbie and asking her what s going on with Hae as opposed to Debbie calling Don to tell him what was going on. And also, that timing, like I said, plays in too. Was it the day after or was it after he found out that she was dead? So there s a lot of unknowns. At least for my side. I m sure possibly Brendan knows and can shed a little more light onto it. But still for me, there s a lot of unknowns. All right, what I would like to do next is I want to lay out, from my perspective, what we do know about this case. So this is what I think, I m 100 percent convinced that the legal system failed Adnan Syed. Beginning with the police investigation all the way through the trial and then the sentencing. So you may be wondering first of all, what is my perspective on all of this? As far as, what right do I have as just a guy, a fireman, to even be commenting on this or presenting my opinion like it matters? And maybe it doesn t. But let me lay out to you where I m coming from as far as my expertise in this matter. And I m by no means an expert. As I mentioned, my fulltime job is I m a fire chief. Of course, I was a firefighter before that, then a lieutenant, and now a chief. Throughout my career as a firefighter, one of the things that I m tasked with is investigating fires and arsons. It s something that I've done on a regular basis for over a decade. When we have a fire, we go through, and there s a lot of forensic things that go into those investigations as far as determining location and cause of a fire. Not really relevant to what we re talking about here. But the other side of that is getting witness statements, interrogation, interviewing, when we have what appears to be a criminal arson case. And I ve done a lot of that over the years so I know a little bit about that. I m not a cop by any means. But I do have a little bit of a perspective on how to do that. How to go about doing that. Even as far as the physical evidence side of things, the forensic side of it, I have a method of determine how a fire started. And that method is, I assume it has to be very similar to the way a police officer investigates a crime. I create a series of theories. So I examine the case, I draw on all the evidence. I walk through the house. I look at the burn patterns, things like that. And then I come up with a theory. So, for example, I have a theory this house burned down because the fire started in a trash can under a table. So I come up with a theory and then I dig through the evidence and look for ways to debunk that theory. And then I move on to the next one. In the example I just gave you, it would be, the fire started under the table in a trash can. Then I start looking, Well, how I could I disprove that? Maybe I look underneath the table and find out there are no burn patterns underneath the table. Meaning, the fire did not originate in the trash can. 4

5 The trash can melted or whatever led me to believe that s where it started, it came from radiant heat from another fire, along those lines. I m sure, who cares? I m sure this is boring some of you. But just trying to give you an idea of what I m talking about. I promise it will all come together here in a moment. What I m doing is I m crossing theories off my list. So I think this is what happened. Nope, that can t be it. Move on to the next theory. And then we dig through the physical evidence and cross that off of our list until we come up with a solid theory that we cannot disprove. By the physical evidence, I cannot disprove it. Then I move on to the witness statements and the key to any interrogation like that is, for me, for my area of expertise, this is to let the witnesses talk. I don t lead them. I don t suggest things to them. I usually start by, Walk me through what happened. Physically walk me through the house and what you did this day. And let them kind of show me what happened. I m listening, I m recording, I m taking notes on everything that they said about what happened that day. And I talk very little. I m trying to hear what they have to say. I don t ask questions other than very broad questions. And let them talk. In my experience, I find that the in my experience, the first statement that you get from a witness is usually the closest to accurate. Or, it s completely made-up. And in those events, typically, the rest of anything you hear from them is going to be completely made-up. Stories will change along the way. And oftentimes, I see witnesses or people involved, we don t call them suspects in my world, their stories will change to fit whatever new evidence we present them. For example, they could say, I wasn t home. I don t smoke. I have no idea how that could have happened. Well then I ll bring them inside, Okay, well, here is an ashtray. Here s burnt cigarettes. So on and so forth. There s three ashtrays in the house full of cigarette butts. The one in the kitchen is empty. The trash can in the kitchen is melted and it appears to be the point of origin. So then the story starts to change to fit that story. So now, and I ve had situations like that, where people will, once they realize, okay, they know that it was from smoking and that it was in that trashcan. But I still don t want it to me. So then they start spinning the story to how somebody else Oh, my brother stopped by. Maybe he had a cigarette. Maybe he s the one that emptied the ashtray. When in their first statement when the brother wasn t in the picture at all and so I m sure some of you are starting to see where I m going with that. The witnesses will change their story to fit the evidence that they have presented in front of them. Come up with it when they realize their original story was not plausible. Then the other side of that are the witnesses that are telling the truth but they misremember. Usually, I ll speak with them the day of, start getting some information. And then, as time goes on and now they're seeing things on the news, they're talking to their friends. There s all these different ways that people are putting ideas in their head and they start to mesh them together. Well then I ll talk to them the next time and the story has changed a little bit. Usually not on purpose. It s just tweaked because they're misremembering some of the details. Because usually these witnesses are, you know, it s not 5

6 a significant event to them. You know, they were a neighbor that maybe saw somebody pull in or leave a house or something like that. So long and short of it is part of that is why this case resonated with me because of my experience dealing with witnesses and suspects and interrogating and questioning and how stories tend to change and the reasons why that they change. My other perspective is, other than aside from being a fire chief, I m a teacher. I am the director of the fire science program at our local college here and I also own a company called Fire Seminars where myself and a team of instructors travel around and teach courses that we created, present other people s material, things like that. So just know that, also a teacher. That will play in here in a moment as well. Now one of the other services, we do some consulting services, but one of the ones that is significant to this case is we provide expert witness services. I m currently an expert witness in a case that s going to trial next month, in June. So I ve spent some time, both through arson cases and both that I was the investigator as well as an expert witness being on the witness stand in court. So I have a little bit of perspective there on that as well. And then lastly, I ve been on jury duty. I actually two years ago was selected to sit on a jury for a felony armed robbery case. It was a four-day case so that certainly doesn t make me an expert but it definitely gives me a little bit of perspective on what s going on inside the courtroom and inside of a jury s head having at least been through that experience once. So again, not claiming to be an expert in any of these things. But these are the mindsets that I m putting into my thoughts and theories on this case. So what I feel that we know is that the legal system failed Adnan Syed. Starting right at the beginning with the investigators and moving on through the prosecutor, the defense attorney, right on down the line all the way that landed him in prison today. First of all, is the investigators. Sarah Koenig mentioned in Serial that Ritz and MacGillivary, the two detectives that were investigating the case I believe her quote was, There not newbies. They're experienced. They're highly regarded detectives. It bothers me a little that she did not mention, and I don t have the sources cited right in front of me, so listeners go ahead and check this out. Detective Ritz about that time got himself in some trouble for a very similar case which I believe there was a racial connotation to it. But it was planting evidence and bullying witnesses, things like that. And I don t remember if he resigned or was let go. But he had some trouble for doing exactly what I feel was done in this case. And I apologize for not having those details right in front of me. There has just been so much information I ve been going through in the past week that that s I had it in my head when I sat down, I promise, but it s left me. So somebody fact check that and bump us on Twitter or on and either confirm or deny that. But Sarah described him as this great detective with an impeccable record was kind of what I took from it. And then you find out that s not true. And that s not something that happened after Serial. It happened before Serial. So I don't know if Sarah didn t know that or if she did know it and just didn t want to tarnish the name of a police officer. And I don t want to do that either if it s not the case but one thing I want to make crystal clear as we move through with this, I do not paint with a broad brush. Meaning, I don t think that because a 6

7 police officer did something bad that all police officers are bad. Everyone is individuals. There s different personalities. And everybody has their own moral compass. I also want to point out that I am very supportive of law enforcement. Like I ve mentioned, I've been in the fire service for a long time. I've worked hand-in-hand, side-by-side with police officers for most of my adult life. I have a lot of respect for any cop for what they do. But with that being said, that doesn t mean that every single cop is a good person. Or that every single cop cannot be corrupted. It also doesn t mean that because one cop is corrupted that all cops are bad people. So I just want to make that crystal clear as we move forward here. So as we listen to Serial and Undisclosed and all the other dynasty of podcasts out there, we see all of the witnesses in this case changing their stories. Constantly. Almost every single one of them. Even what maybe seemingly unimportant witnesses, they change their stories from, Yes, I saw Hae at 2:30 when she was buying a snack before she left for school and there s no possible way it could have been closer to 2:15 because the bus loop had to clear. And then comes at trial and testifies, Yes, it had to have been closer to 2:15 or 2:20 when I saw her. So why that change? There s countless numbers of these throughout all the different podcasts when you really dig into what witnesses said to police and then how their story changed to police and then how their stories changed at trial. A very significant example of this was Debbie at trial. Debbie in police interviews stated that she had seen Adnan about 2:45 at the school getting ready to go to track practice. Now at trial number one, the prosecution puts her up, they write that part out of the timeline and under cross, Gutierrez asks her if she had spoke with Adnan and confirmed that story and she said, Yes. She remembered seeing him at 2:45 on his way to track practice. However, in the second trial when asked the same question, she answered, I can t remember. In Undisclosed Colin mentions that that right there is the difference between innocence and guilt. That change in testimony is the difference between being exonerated and being convicted. But what I m looking at is why the change. Why change the answer? And there s several different examples of this and this is what I m in my mind 100 percent certain was going on. I believe Detectives MacGillivary and Ritz were bullying these witnesses. Not necessarily bullying, but manipulating these witnesses. I also believe the prosecutor, Urick, was doing the same thing. That was quite evident when Don told Sarah in Serial that Urick actually yelled at him after testifying because he didn t make Adnan look like a bad guy. So how was this done? How are all of these witnesses flip-flopping, changing their minds like that? You have to put yourself back in the mindset of being a 17, 18-year-old high school kid. I don't know what the term is, I m sure there is one for it, but the long and short of it is, it s really not that difficult to manipulate somebody s thoughts and memories. It doesn t take much at all. Especially for a young, impressionable kid. Let me give you an example about that. I wanted to try an experiment with this. So, myself and two of my firefighters had to run some errands recently and went out to lunch while we were waiting for a part to come in from the fire truck shop. And while we re having lunch, one of our vendors was sitting in a booth next to us and he bought our lunch for us. 7

8 So the end of the meal, I pulled out of my wallet a ten dollar bill and threw it on the table and said, Here, I got the tip. The two firefighters that were with me, one of them started to look in his wallet, said, Oh man, I don t have any cash. The other one was kind of asking me how much. And I just waved them off, said, Don t worry about that, that s enough, we re good. And so then we go back to the station and I was thinking about what I m discussing with you right now: manipulating someone s mind. Now, both of these two are, I think, still mad at me about this. But so I was thinking about that on the way back and I've always found that if you can throw a little bit of guilt at somebody and put a few ideas in their mind, details possibly, that they had not paid attention to, you can completely change their train of thought. Now mind you, these two firefighters, one is 21 years old and one is 25 years old, so they're younger guys. So we get back to the station and I decide to, let s try to implant a little bit of guilt. So I start talking to them, telling them, Man, I can t believe you didn t leave that lady a tip. That nice lady at the restaurant. I mean, geez, you could have given her a dollar or two dollars. And then kept hitting them with, You think about the life of a waitress. You know, you throwing out an extra dollar literally has no effect on your life. That dollar means nothing to you. But what it means to her is that that means instead of getting a 20 percent tip, she got a 22 or a 25 percent tip. She got a good tip because you threw that extra dollar out there. So no effect on your life, huge effect, and that makes her day. It s not about the dollar. It s about the fact that someone was generous enough to give her a larger tip than is customary. So things like that. So then I start planting details in their head. And I m literally doing this as an experiment for this show. Not that it s not something that I enjoy doing to my younger firefighters anyway. So I start telling them, You guys don t pay any attention to details. Were you paying any attention at all what was going on in there? I mean, she s got three kids at home. Chief, how do you know she has three kids at home? Well, didn t you see, she had a button on her shirt that had her three kids on there? And they re of course like, What? No. Really? And then quickly they started to, Oh yeah, I guess I didn t look that close at the button. I saw there were three kids but I didn t think they were her kids. I m like, Well, I assume they are. The ages looked about right. No kidding. I was like, She s not married. And they're like, What do you mean she s not married? I m like, Well didn t you notice she wasn t wearing a wedding ring? So it s a single mom with three kids at home. And then one of the guys is like, Oh, you know what, I did notice that. Yeah, that she didn t have a ring on. Man, I didn t, I feel bad now. 8

9 I keep going with this, I m kind of making them feel more guilty, You don t even remember her name, do you? You know, blank stares on their face. Did you even notice her name tag? Did you hear her when she said her name? And they started thinking a little bit. Now, the woman s name was Jane actually. And I said, You don t remember when she came to the table and said, My name is Mary Ellen. How can I help you? Or I m glad to serve you, or whatever it is that they say. And it was amazing watching both of them start to remember, Oh yeah, I remember. Okay, Mary Ellen. Because I said, Don t you remember on her name tag it was spelled a little differently? It was like two words like Mary-space-Ellen. You don t remember? Oh, you know, I do remember because the name tag And they re giving me details. Now the name tag was underneath the button of the kids on her shirt. So we re going on and on to the point where they both felt so guilty about not tipping this poor, single mother of three that they were ready to drive the twenty miles back to where we were to leave this lady a tip before I revealed to them that I was just messing with them the whole time. Like I said, they're still a little mad at me about that. But the point of the experiment was this: there was no button on her shirt. There was no name tag on her shirt. Her name was not Mary Ellen. But by the end of that conversation both of them were convinced where in their mind, they were remembering those details. Even though those details never happened. So by throwing in a little bit of guilt, I was able to completely manipulate their mind. So how s that relevant here? I think you all know at this point what I m getting at. I 100 percent believe this is where all of these witnesses statements came from. So imagine you're a 17-year-old Debbie and you remember talking to Adnan at 2:45 and he left. Then you sit down with detectives. You just found out that your friend was murdered. Nobody has that in the toolbox of their brain. The tool to deal with one of your close friends was murdered. So this is a crazy time for her. She s wrought with sadness and these detectives pull her in. She gives her statement. And whether it was the detectives or the prosecutor, I don't know because I don't know at what point this, because it was in the two months between the two trials where her story changed. And they start telling you things like, Listen, we have the evidence. We know that Adnan did this. Adnan killed your friend Hae. Don t you remember that he could not have been there at 2:45? It s not possible because we know that he was with Hae, murdering her, before that. So you re sure you re not remembering it wrong? You see what they're doing there. And I m not saying that s the words that were said, but I feel like that s the implication as to what was happening. And one after another, they were picking these witnesses apart. They throw the guilt in there. Your friend is dead. All it takes is that little bit of a hint that they already have it figured out. That they know Adnan was the killer. And then throw the guilt in that you saying that is going to let him off the hook. And we re sure you remembered that wrong. We know 9

10 you re remembering that wrong. Don t you remember that it was at 2:30, not 2:45? Don t you remember that that was a different day? So on and so forth. To where all these young kids are all flip-flopping their testimony. You know, Asia herself said on Serial, I just assumed that if they convicted him that he did it and they had all the proof they needed to do it. So, there was a failure on the detectives part. And I m going to go ahead and call it. If that is what was going on, that s corruption on the part of the police. When I m investigating an arson or something like that, what I m looking for is the truth. I m not trying to build a case to fit my theory. I want to know what actually happened. Now at the same time, remind yourself this if you weren t aware of this, that police department had 314 homicides in So almost one homicide a day. So it s not like, you know, and I m sure everyone listening to this, I ve gotten s from as far as Australia, so who knows where all of you are listening to this. In my town, there was actually a murder in the town where I work a couple of weeks ago. The first murder that those police officers have dealt with in decades. It doesn t happen in this part of the country that I live in. Obviously, it happens. But it s not frequent. So every resource the department had was going into solving this murder. The manhunt to find the man that did this. And they did catch him, by the way, two states over in Ohio. But in a department where you re dealing with a homicide a day, I wonder if doesn t play in that they're just trying to process, check, get it off my desk. Check. Done. Check. Done. Check. Done. Get this off my desk. Because what I m having a hard time figuring out is, okay, I think I know what happened as far as what the police were doing, but I don't know why it happened. Why go through all this trouble to pin this on somebody when, you know, I m not going to jump out and say, at this point, an innocent man. But certainly why pin this on someone that you really have no evidence that they did it? None at all. And to put all the effort, I don t get it. Other than possibly, I just want this off my case. I certainly hope that as a detective investigating a homicide that s looking to put somebody away for life or possibly even the death penalty in Maryland, that they're willing to be so nonchalant about it. Like, I get the right guy, don t get the right guy, whatever. Maybe they think they're going to sort it out in the courts. Who knows. So then after all this detective work, we get into the courts. Now something that I haven t heard said on any of the other podcasts that just occurred to me the other day. I was listening to the Serially Obsessed bonus episode with the jury expert and they were talking about jury selection and things like that and it was an interesting conversation. And all of a sudden, it occurred to me, I think we can all agree, at the very least, Christina Gutierrez was off her game at the time of this trial. You know, she was obviously disbarred a couple of years later. She had a law the State Legal Fund or Legal Trust or whatever it s called had to pay out record amounts of money for all these cases. We ve heard from people that had hired her for other cases where she had them meet them and give them large sums. You know, one of them was $50,000 cash for an expert witness that she never hired. Adnan s mother stated that she had to bring her $10,000 cash for an expert witness that again she never hired. There s been allegations that there was drug 10

11 abuse going on. We know that she was sick but then there were these allegations of drug abuse and I have no way of knowing whether that s true or not. But certainly, needing large amounts of cash like that and not producing and doing a terrible job in the courtroom is certainly suspect to drug abuse. I don't know that anybody will ever know that for sure. So, we ve talked about how she was off her game as far as what witnesses she contacted and how she presented the case in court. But Adnan was dead in the water right at the beginning. I don t think anybody has really talked about the jury selection. One of the most important parts of the trial is selecting the jury, the group of peers that are going to hear the case. And there s this process with the attorneys where they get to go through selection. They're the ones that are selecting who s going to sit on that jury. Christina Gutierrez was not on her game to say the least when she was selecting the jury. So before the trial ever started, Adnan was already fighting a losing battle. They had the prosecutor that was on point and determined to convict him very carefully selecting the jurors that were on that jury. Whereas Gutierrez, who knows, maybe she did a good job but I don t see why she would have done a great job with that and nothing else. So then the trial starts and, of course, we have the first mistrial and just from listening to the sound clips of Gutierrez s bantering with the witnesses and the judge [Laughs] For those of you that haven t listened to Serially Obsessed, you should really listen. I don t remember what episode number it is. I think it was Deepti, it might have been Daisy, that does a Gu-- [laughs], what she calls a Gootz impression in one of the episodes that had me rolling on the floor laughing yesterday. It s hysterical. But, you know, she had that loud, cackling, annoying voice. You would think that that wouldn t play in but it does. You know, having sat on a jury, or sat in a classroom, or anything for that matter, where someone s trying to explain something to you and you can t even they're yelling at you and they just have this horrible voice. They said her arguments weren t linear. She was bouncing around. They were confusing. It s really, really, really easy to lose interest in that and tune out and not pay attention. Or even just to kind of sway your opinion about anything they're saying. And, of course, there was the mistrial the first time which sounds like had that trial gone to a jury there probably would have been an acquittal in that one. And then in the second trial, she s just absolutely falling apart. So her as Adnan s defense attorney, really failed him in that this should have been easy. I mean, I m not a lawyer but it seems to me that this would have been a simple argument. And again, I m looking at it through the glasses of an instructor. When I m an expert witness on a witness stand, I don t look at it as through I m trying to persuade a jury. I look at it as though I m trying to teach a jury. For starters, as an expert witness, I can pick and choose the cases that I m willing to take and not take. If the case is something that the firm that s hiring me, I think they're wrong, I just won t take the case. I will not lie on the stand. I will not bend the truth. I m going to give the facts. So if the facts I have to give support their case, they hire me and I do the job. But because of that, I m not trying to persuade the jury, what I m trying to do is teach the jury. So much the same way as I would do in a classroom. When I give my testimony, I m trying to just help them to understand what it is that I m trying to explain. You know, when I teach people how to teach in the instructional 11

12 technique classes that I instruct, I always tell my students that your job is to make the complicated simple. You're trying to take what s in a book and convert it into language that s understandable in a practical manner so that your students can in their mind apply it to real life. And that s how it sticks. And that s how they get it. So looking at Adnan s case, it should have been very, very, very easy for Gutierrez to teach them and help them understand that this timeline makes no sense and that Jay is not believable. If I was a lawyer, the way I would have presented the case is I would have had some sort of a visual aid. Say a big whiteboard or say a PowerPoint and I think the trial was actually in 2000, that was kind of a thing then. But just a big whiteboard and literally draw a timeline when you have Jay on the stand. What if you went through, Okay, here s this date. Jay in this interview, you're first interview with police, you said you had nothing to do with this. Is that true or is that a lie? That a lie. Okay, next, Couple hours later, after you were recorded, you admitted that you were involved in the crime and you said this, this, and this. And you have laid out there, Called me at this time, from this location. I didn t help bury the body. Or whatever he had said there. Okay, so he has his whole timeline. This is from the notes you told the police officers on this date, correct? Is this the truth or is this a lie? He would have to say this is a lie and you go through, but the big point for me is to say, On this date, which I believe was before his second taped interview, did the police show you the phone records for Adnan Syed s phone? Yes they did. It s documented that they did. So he was able to look at those, have these two, three hours with the police officers prior to turning on the tape to go over those phone records. In my opinion, to formulate a story. Now, in trial, it would be, Were you shown Adnan Syed s phone records? Yes. On this date. Draw that point on a timeline, then after that put, Okay, now at this time, you gave another statement to the police. And in this story, your timeline changed to this, this, this, this, this, and this. Is that correct? Yes. Now what I m trying to do here one thing in a long trial like that is I look at it through the lens of a long class or even when I was on jury duty in a long trial. You have to give information to the jury that s going to commit to long-term memory. It may be a week before they deliberate. They re going to hear tons of other testimony before they deliberate. What s most likely to stick in their mind is probably closing arguments, right? And you can resummarize this in the closing arguments but I want them to remember this right now. I want them to learn what it is that I m telling them which is the fact that Jay s entire timeline is fabricated. The prosecution is presenting Jay s timeline as though it s corroborated by the phone records when it s crystal clear that Jay created his timeline based on the phone records. His timeline was completely different prior to seeing the phone records. So it shouldn t completely eliminate the legitimacy of anything that he testified. 12

13 The reason I would present it the way I just mentioned is instead of just saying it, which you're going to make that point at the end of the day in your closing, but when I m teaching, I always like to let my students figure something out. For example, I m not going to say while I m questioning Jay, Did you change your timeline based on these phone records? And the reason for that is, I want the jurors to commit this to long-term memory so I want them to figure it out. So I m literally just going to lay it out that way. You said this then. This was your timeline, right? You lied. At this point, they showed you the phone records, here, here, and here. Yes. After that you gave another testimony in the interrogation with the police officers and you changed your timeline to this, this, this, and this. Right. After you saw the phone records. Right. Then keep moving on and let the jurors, and it seems like a simple thing that doesn t matter one way or the other but from my experiences, it does. The jurors going through that process have to connect the dots themselves. Okay, wait, he said this, then he saw phone records, then he said this. That s why his testimony matches the phone records. Then it continued to change after that, of course. So that s something that the defense attorney should have been able to do. So there s another failure. So we have the police failed him in the fact that they manipulated, clearly manipulated, the testimony of all these witnesses to shift it to fit their timeline. Also, that I didn t mention before, the police did a terrible job. I wonder if part of the motivation I discussed earlier has to do with the fact that they did a shitty job investigating this. For example, when they find Hae s car, the file for the investigation of Hae s car, they took four pictures of it. They didn t really process it. There s no evidence that I ve seen or heard from that they actually have physical evidence showing that Hae was ever in her trunk. One thing they did find was a fingerprint on the rearview mirror that they did test against Adnan, Jay, and Hae and it was none of theirs. Well, whoever drove their car there may have adjusted the mirror. That may be your killer right there but that just kind of falls out of the narrative. It s just gone. The fact that there s this unknown fingerprint in there. So I feel like they were rushed, they had a lot of cases, they did a sloppy job investigating and then here comes this guy that s willing to pin it on somebody and they run with it. What I don t understand is why they choose to go with Jay. Like my first thought would have been, Jay is the killer. Jay is the one who did it. That s who I would be going after but see that would require a lot of work. That would require a better job investigating, two weeks prior, or three weeks prior, whenever it was when they found the body. They hadn t found the car yet. That would have been a better time to do it. But instead they have this great piece of evidence where they have this guy who s pinning it on someone else. So the police did a terrible job. The police manipulated the witnesses. 13

14 The defense attorney, Gutierrez, did a horrible job. She didn t present the case well. She didn t contact witnesses. She didn t ask the right questions. She didn t have the right people on the stand. She didn t verify stories. I mean the fact that the track coach can absolutely, 100 percent verify that Adnan Syed was at track on time that day, based on what was disclosed in Episode 1 of Undisclosed podcast. The thing is that really bothers me about this is the fact that the police knew. The police had in their notes that the coach had said that he remembers talking to Adnan during Ramadan at an outdoor practice because it was a nice day and they were outside. Couldn t remember which day it was. Then the police, it sounds like, had gone through the trouble to check the weather reports and found out that January 13 th was the only day that fit that description and they chose just to throw that away. That right there is an exoneration. If we go back to what I was stating earlier about how we investigate an arson, I m investigating this crime, I have a theory this guy Adnan did it. And then I find that piece of evidence, that has disproved my theory. I can check him off the list. It wasn t him. That s how simple this in my mind to me. That right there tells me okay, it wasn t him, along with Debbie saying she saw him at 2:45. I ve got the coach saying he talked to him at track practice. That s okay, maybe not completely forget about him, but move on to somebody else. That theory is not going to work. But for some reason they kept continuing down that path of Adnan. I don t get it. I m hoping as Rabia and Colin and Susan move further with Undisclosed, we get some more information as the mode of what was going on with these police officers. But then we had the prosecutor too, another failure in the system. He s continuing to obviously bully the witnesses. Don stated that he was bullying him and yelling at him. He was clearly 100 percent trying to convict Adnan Syed. He was not trying to convict the murder of Hae Min Lee. He was trying to convict Adnan Syed and there s a subtle difference there. He had his mind made up that it was Adnan. And had lost the ability in his mind, I guess, to consider other ideas. Just, that s it. It s Adnan and we re going after it and I m going to push and manipulate. I think that, I would assume, that Debbie s testimony changing from trial one to trial two at that point wouldn t be the police, that would be Urick, I m guessing. Urick, we already know he s yelling at Don for not painting a bad light on Adnan. I have no doubt in my mind that he grabbed Debbie after that first trial and said you re remembering that wrong. You can t say you saw him at 2:45. What are you trying to do, let your friend s murderer go free? You remembered that wrong. The same thing the police officers were doing at the very beginning with a lot of these witnesses. And then providing Jay with an attorney, I can t believe the judge let that go. The judge failed him. And we just pointed out that the prosecutor that s prosecuting Jay secured a lawyer pro bono for him to defend him. Are you kidding me? I mean, I m not in the law profession at all and I know that that s not ok. And it s not but for the judge just to let that go is ridiculous. So there s another failure of the system there. And these just go on, and on, and on, and on. So that s what I know so far. I m not necessarily talking about the facts of the investigation but the facts of the case are that Adnan was failed by this legal system. That I know. I don t know a whole lot more than that but I know that that was a failure. 14

15 [00:47:15] Listener s* Next I want to move on to reading some listeners thoughts and theories and s. My first comes from Laura Murphy from Sydney, Australia. So thank you, Laura, for sending in your thoughts. Now this is a long one so I m going to have to summarize it. She has a lot of thoughts she gets out here but let me read you a couple of the paragraphs here. She says: Hi Bob, Thank you for creating The Serial Dynasty. I look forward to hearing more from other enthralled listeners from around the world. My interest in this case comes from the core requirement of justice. Regardless of whether or not Adnan Syed committed this crime, I think all listeners can probably agree that the case that was heard in court was not enough to convict Adnan Syed. Yet, Adnan was convicted with so many unanswered questions which I suppose is why we are left picking this apart sixteen years later. Not so much of a theory, but just getting my thoughts out there. A lot of insight here in this paragraph: Without doubt, when you do throw a veil of doubt over a person or thing, for lack of better wording, people then asks themselves questions that were never in question before. In Adnan s case, it is the people he knew from school asking whether or not they think he did it. Because by that point, Adnan was being trialed. So guilty until proven innocent to an extent. The fact that this veil of doubt is thrown over Adnan would naturally cause people to throw that same veil over their thoughts, clouding any memory they have of that day. Or as we heard from Undisclosed, the days surrounding that day, i.e., Cathy s house. If we factor this in, it seems as though anyone who appears to corroborate Jay s version of events has possibly fallen victim to the veil of doubt that was thrown over Adnan. Now she goes on quite a bit. She mentions the interview with the Intercept that Jay gave. In the rest of the , she points out that in the interview with the Intercept, Jay claims that he was lying to protect his family, which was different than his original statement that he was lying to protect Stephanie. She believes that absolutely Adnan is innocent. And she knows that Jay has more information than he s letting on. I think we all know that. She threw out a couple of theories, one being that Jay definitely knows who did do it but he ll never come clean about it because now with his new family, wife and kids, he just would never take that risk. So I agree with Laura that Jay is never going to talk. We re never going to get to the bottom of this from Jay. She also, not necessarily a theory, but throws out 15

16 the idea, or it is possible, that Jay himself was the murderer. So thank you, Laura, from Sydney, Australia for sending in that . I appreciate it. We have another from Mary. I like this one. Short and sweet. Mary says: Hello, Not so much as a fully-fleshed theory but just a yucky feeling about Don. Was his mother/boss really his only alibi witness? Ugh. Thanks, Mary, for sending that in and I m kind of in the same boat with you on that one. I m not ready to say I think Don did it, but I m really still not comfortable with Don. I mentioned at the beginning of the show today that him not reaching out to try to get a hold of Hae that day or the day after, still bugs me. My issue with that is I can t in my mind, from what I know, figure out a way that connects Don with Jay. Maybe we ll find more out about that on the next Undisclosed episode. Thank you, Mary, for sending that one in. My next theory comes in from Pete Berg. Pete says: Hi there, Really glad you're making this podcast. I ve been a Serial obsessive for months as well and I have listened to every podcast and read every blog post that I could find. I even drove around Baltimore a couple of months ago to see all the locations with my own two eyes. After everything, this is my theory And the theory, it s really, really long. And it s posted on Reddit, so I think the easiest way for me instead of just trying to read this all to you is I will put up the Reddit link on our Twitter feed after this show airs so anybody that wants to hear what Pete Berg has to you say, you can check it out there but here is the long and short of it. Pete doesn t believe that Jay had Adnan s phone. He does a very good job laying this out. Let me read here, just the beginning, it says: Theory: Adnan had his cell phone with him at school all day up through the Nisha s call and only lent it to Jay when he got dropped off at track practice. Jay was at Jenn s house when the murder took place. The come and get me call was at 3:21 from Adnan s phone to Jenn s landline. Then he goes through the phone records and he has a theory, or an explanation, for every call. So it s really neat what Pete did here. He s kind of created this whole timeline based around these calls. Coincidentally, I think that s what the police officers did as well. But here s my issue with it, and I m not going to call Pete crazy or anything, but my issue with this is that I have yet to hear anyone claim that Jay didn t have Adnan s phone, including Jay himself. I mean, Jay states that he had Adnan s phone all day. Adnan states that he had Adnan s phone all day. Jenn states that she remembers seeing Jay with Adnan s phone. So for 16

17 me, it s a stretch to say that, I don t see why Jay would lie. It would be much easier for him to say, I knew nothing about it. I don t know. They checked Adnan s phone records and they leave Jay the hell alone instead of, you know, him telling them he had the phone. So, I think it s really neat and it s a lot of effort. Pete says here, he closes it up with: Anyway, I spent far too much time pondering over Serial, this subreddit, the Intercept interviews, Undisclosed, Susan Simpson, Rabia Chaudry, Evidence Professor, blogs, plenty of trial transcripts, and police reports. I ve even visited Baltimore and driven around Leakin Park and Woodlawn High. Ultimately, this is the theory I ve come up with. Your thoughts? So, Pete, thank you very much. Those are my thoughts. Definitely A for effort. That s really, really impressive that you took the time to go through and do all that. I just, I can t commit to believing that Jay didn t have Adnan s phone. All you other listeners out there, think about it for yourself. Pete, for you, I will put that link up to your Reddit blog on Twitter feed. My next just asked me to identify them by their Twitter handle so if you want more check them out on Twitter. This is the theory they sent: Serial killer Roy S. Davis was not only in the area when Hae Min Lee went missing, he also shared interests with Jay Wilds. Davis was a drug dealer and his tendency for rape might have brought him at or near the adult video store where Jay was employed. This was not a mild-mannered place. The shop was shut down in 2012 because there were booths with glory holes and it was a meeting up place for prostitution. It was a hangout complete with prostitution, assault cases, even an incident involving autoerotic asphyxiation. Jay didn t become officially employed at the store until shortly after his arrest but he must have had some [Bob laughs] Okay, let me reread that. Jay didn t become officially employed at the store until shortly after his arrest but he must have had some yank because they let him start work even though he was a no-show for the first three days. How do you get a job like that anyway? In short, it provides a nexus where area drug dealers might indeed come into contact with an extreme sexual predator like Roy Davis. Mr. S also comes to mind. And lists a couple of links to news stories about the video store where Jay worked. So, thank for shooting that into us. I think that s not something we should write off. I think it s something that s certainly in the possibility column. I know the Innocence Project was working on the serial killer angle and 17

18 you know, the question that comes up a lot any time I think that somebody may be a suspect-- How do they link with Jay? Because we know Jay was involved. How does this person link with Jay and that s not too far of a leap for me to at least consider it. So if you want more from check out on and see what they have to say. Thanks for the then sent me a follow-up , says: A caveat, what I found about the nature of the porn store are articles written several years ago post Serial, nothing contemporaneous. Generally, this is a sub-theory of a more encompassing theory that Hae happened into a Jayrelated scene that was heavier than either of them initially understood. Jay is then in a bind because he is both beholden to and frightened of the perp. Adnan is a patsy. He doesn t have the muscle to come back at Jay. Both Adnan and Hae are involved because of an interest in weed. Maybe Hae is looking for some weed for her date with Don or maybe she mistakes Jay for Adnan because Jay has the car. This is a decent theory but I feel like I remember watching the video, I think it was the Docket interview, one of the Docket interviews with Rabia and Susan. Where they discuss the fact that they had done a toxicology report on Hae and there were no traces of any of your usual suspect drugs, marijuana, or anything like that. Now the doctor that was on the show mentioned that he wished they had done a more thorough toxicology report to see if there was perhaps something like a date rape drug or something like that in her system. So I don t think Hae was a drug user. I could be wrong on that. I ll have to go back and watch the Docket interview to find that out for sure. But, thanks for sending that in. Our next comes from Brendan Kenny. He says: Bob, Thanks for the show and thanks for asking listeners for theories. I have three areas that I d like to know more about. Number one: Adnan s I m going to kill note. Which he says you can find at ViewfromLL2.com in Examination of the Prosecution s Evidence against Adnan Syed blog post. A) Aisha Pittman read this note at trial. At the top of the page it says I m going to kill. Police had found the note when they searched Adnan s house. But who knows about that one, right? Seems like a detail you d find in a cheesy detective novel. It s from Serial podcast Episode 6. As a trial lawyer, I think the note is a big deal. I understand that there are hurdles in getting the note into evidence at trial, but I still want to know more. Here are some of the questions I have: 18

19 1. Where did police find the note? 2. Is there any indication that Adnan had it near him in the weeks leading up to the arrest? 3. Did he ever talk to anyone about the note? 4. How do we even know it was in his handwriting? Other than Aisha s word? I guess my response to that is, I don t really know. I actually just listened to that episode again last night in preparation for this and that note has always kind of thrown me. And I guess I m in kind of a conspiracy-theory mindset right now so, you know, it could be totally irrelevant but I think could that have been something the police wrote on there. Like, could this be just totally part of framing Adnan? Aisha said she never saw that on the note when she was passing it. And I agree with you, it sounds like something from a cheesy detective novel. The killer happened to write a note and leave it on his desk that says, I m going to kill. You know, I guess it s possible but it doesn t fit with everything else that was going on in this case. So, I have some questions about that too and so Rabia and Colin and Susan, if you're listening to this, maybe it s something you could bring up in the next Undisclosed podcast if you have any more information on that. The second point is Jay s statement to his friend that the trunk pop happened on at a pool hall, conversation about Patapsco State Park, other statements about the killing. A) I lumped these together because I have the sense that these things really happened to Jay either on January 13 th or soon after. I think that the statements and actions he attributes to Adnan are from someone else. The words that Jay puts in Adnan s mouth don t sound anything like Adnan today. And in fact, Adnan s first attorney said that the urban sound that Adnan has today is something he s developed in prison. He sounded nothing like that then. Were any of the people who knew him at the time shocked that he s used these words? It makes me wonder whether someone could do a textual analysis comparing known samples of Adnan s speech in 1999 to what Jay says Adnan told him. On a related note, I don t think anyone has looked into the pool hall. Is there anything to suggest that Adnan knew about it? Did Jay go there often? Who else connected to Jay went there? These are all good points. For me, I guess I m operating in the mindset that I literally believe nothing that Jay said. Other than the fact that I know Jay was involved in the murder, but he has spun and twisted and turned this story and what Adnan said and didn t say and 19

20 where they went, the whole state park trip, they completely dropped it out of the narrative in the trial. Basically, I'm sure because if that happened then nothing else that he said could have happened. So, I get your questions, I don t have the answers for you. But a lot of these questions are parts of the story that I've just kind of thrown away. I don t need any more evidence to know that Jay was lying. But anybody else out there that has more thoughts about this, feel free to shoot me an and we ll get them out on the next episode. His third point is: Jenn Pusateri lawyers-up before meeting with the police. I'd be interested in knowing who she talked to before getting the lawyer and why Jay didn t get a lawyer then. I don t quite understand how this all fits in. Best, Brendan I agree with you there. I have a lot of questions about Jenn and I ll discuss those as we wrap this episode up when I give you my theories. So, thanks again, Brendan for the . I appreciate it. All right, the last today that I want to read comes from Susannah from Washington D.C. Susannah says: Bob, I love your idea for a listener-driven podcast. I think that Adnan is innocent and that Jay is responsible either direct or indirectly. I have read that there was some very serious crime happening at Jay s house. Not just light drug dealing and I m wondering now whether Hae somehow witnessed something she shouldn t have and Jay or his family acted on the moment as a result. Not sure. No matter what I am horrified that Adnan was convicted based on so little evidence. Cheers, Susannah I wasn t aware of the higher crime there. And admittedly, a lot of this, my research, you ll find as we go further and further with this podcast, is mostly based on audio stuff, podcasts, things like that. It s just solely because I m a very busy guy, I m on the run a lot. Like I mentioned, I have the four kids and I have the fulltime job and I teach and run a business. So, most of my research time comes when I m traveling in my car. So I m not really up to speed on all the blogs and Reddit and all these things because I just don t typically have the time to sit down and read those things. 20

21 When I m in my car, I can turn the podcasts on and I can listen to all of them and try to parse that all together. So I m really relying you on the listeners for some of the information like we just got from Susannah in Washington D.C. So thanks, Susannah, for sending that in. We ll see if we can t dig into that a little bit deeper. And if I do have some time, I ll do some research myself and see what we can come up with there, but certainly not outside the realm of possibilities that Hae stumbled upon some sort of crime happening with Jay and/or his family and that s what s happened. Certainly a sound theory and thanks again for the . I want to thank all the listeners who took the time to send us your thoughts and theories either through or through Twitter. It s really appreciated and keep them coming and hope as we keep snowballing this and gaining more and more listeners, we ll get more and more thoughts and theories and ideas and I m really looking forward to hearing from everybody. Twitter is a place where you can, if you have a quick thought you want to send over to me, go ahead and tweet that That You can shoot me a quick message there or if you have a longer thought, go ahead and shoot us the theories@serialdynasty.com. Before I wrap the show up for today, as promised, I will give you my theory on the case up to this point. Now I came up with my theories in the same manner which I told you at the beginning of the show that I investigate a fire or an arson case. Where I come up with what I think is a logical theory and then I compare that to the evidence and see if it can be disproven. So, I ve listened to Serial over and over and over again. I think I m coming up on fifteen or sixteen times now. Some of the episodes I've listened to 20, 30 times and that s why is because I get new information, you know, Undisclosed will drop an episode, gives me a little bit of information. I come up with a new theory, I listen again and see how it pans out. So the first theory to put up against the evidence is the obvious one when I first started listening is: Adnan did it. He s the one who got convicted. So considering the idea that Jay s telling the truth in one of the versions that he told and Adnan is the murder, I went back through and I listened to all the episodes and I just, I can t do it. I m ready to call at this point that I not only feel like Adnan is innocent, I feel like Adnan literally had absolutely nothing to do with this. When I first started listening to Serial months ago, I went through the ups and downs. The he did it, or, he s innocent. Or he was involved but he didn t do it. Or he knows more than he s saying. But when it really all pans out, when I really think about all of it together, I just really think that January 13, 1999 was a normal day for Adnan and I ll explain why. I can t find a place in Serial or anywhere else where Adnan has lied. Typically, that s where we catch people like in an arson case or something like that is, you catch them tripping up. They forget their stories. They forget what they told you last time. They shift their story. They lie. He s been consistent. And sure, part of his consistency has been that he doesn t remember what happened that day. But to me, that s truth. It s a normal day. Everybody says, Well how can you not remember? That was the day you got a call from the police. But keep in mind, he got a call from Hae s brother, if I understand it correctly, asking if you d seen Hae. Hey the police are here, let me talk to you. I really feel like that call was nothing more than, Hey, she didn t show up to pick up her cousin today. Have you seen her? 21

22 No, I haven t seen her since school. And I m sure in Adnan s mind, like he said, he thought, Oh, Hae s in trouble. She didn t show up. He had other things going on and they were off school for the next several days and probably didn t give it much more thought after that. So I don t think that day would have been significant to him. So the fact that Adnan doesn t have an exact recollection of that day, makes perfect sense to me. So, I believe 100 percent that Adnan is innocent. For that reason and then also with the new information we have I feel like his alibi is rock solid. Undisclosed has blown the State s timeline completely apart. But what they ve also done is blown apart the timeline that all of us have been working on, us Serial fanatics, for all these months. You know, when we re trying to parse out what happened, we re basing it on, you know, she had a wrestling match. I don t think anybody believed that she was killed at 2:36, but somewhere in this time, this had to happen, all based on the State s timeline. So my first thought with Undisclosed was, Oh man, I kind of have to start from scratch here because that day is completely different than I thought it was. But what we do know is that whatever happened to Hae happened to her before 3:00 p.m. She was supposed to pick up her and I hope that s correct because I shot a quick tweet out before I started recording today looking for some listeners to verify this and I did get a few responses to verify that this was correct. Hae was supposed to pick up her cousin at 3:00 p.m. She didn t show up to pick up her cousin at school and that s when her family realized she was missing. So whatever happened to her happened between 2:15 and 3:00 p.m. Well, we know what Adnan was doing during that day. I believe Debbie when she said she talked to him at 2:45. I believe the other witnesses that said they didn t see Adnan get into her car. I believe that he went to the library, checked his . We know that he was at track practice. The track coach verified that indirectly that he was at track practice. So we know he was busy during that time. We know he was at track practice. He was at school, at the library, and at track practice after school. And that s when Hae Min Lee was you know, at the very least abducted, if not killed, at that point in time. So at this point, I have to check as a suspect off my list, Adnan Syed. I don t think it s possible that he did it. So who do I think did it? I don't know yet. We know Jay clearly was involved. I mean, there s no question about that. I feel very strongly Jay knows a lot more than he s letting on. I think that Jay either killed her or is protecting whoever did kill her and I agree with the one that Adnan was nothing more than a patsy in all this. I think, I don t even think that was premeditated. I don t think the murder was premeditated. The fact that she was strangled, to me, says not premeditated. If I m planning to kill somebody, or if someone is planning to kill somebody, don t you think that they would take a weapon, a knife, a gun, a baseball bat? Something? Manual strangulation is something, to me, that happens in the heat of the moment. So something happened that caused whoever was in front of Hae to grab her by the throat and kill her. So I don t think that it was premeditated at all. I also don t think the plan to pin it on Adnan was premeditated. I think that was a coincidence. I think Jay clearly was involved, if it wasn t him himself that did it, and when the 22

23 heat started coming down on him, how perfect is this? He has Adnan s car, he has Adnan s phone. When the police contact him, I m sure he was thinking he was going to be contacted as a suspect in the murder. I think that he was probably surprised when they contacted him asking him about Adnan. And so, I think even using Adnan as the patsy also came from the cops. And the cops got it from this anonymous caller. Okay, and Sarah in Serial says how she just really believes that this anonymous caller who called in and told them to check out the ex-boyfriend, and that he used to take Hae to Leakin Park, and that he thinks that the car would be in a lake or something like that. Sarah believes that this anonymous caller is the key to the whole thing. And at first I did too. I thought that s got to be the accomplice. That Jay s accomplice is the one that had to call in, or if it wasn t Jay himself. But just today, I mean hours before I was recording, I was listening to that again, and it was the caller also told him to contact this Yaser Ali, who, that didn t pan out. But the more I think about it, I don t think the anonymous caller has anything to do with this for the simple reason that the anonymous caller stated that they think that the car would be in a lake. Or that Adnan had said if he ever killed her he d put her car in a lake, or whatever it was that he said. Well anybody involved with the crime that knows where the car is, and is trying to pin it on Adnan, why would they say anything about the car being in a lake? My theory as to that call is there were rumors going around. Somehow these rumors got back to this guy, whoever this guy was, who the police say was Asian. I don't know how they d know that other than I don t know, maybe he had an accent. Seems like a weird thing to write down on a report. But I think this person heard the rumors, you know, people are going to start rumors about Don, about Adnan, about whoever. Somewhere there was a rumor about a car being in a lake. He decides, you know, whoever he heard it from, heard it from somebody, who heard it from this Yaser guy supposedly. You know how rumors work. And it had gotten to him that he had heard that Adnan did. That he used to take her to Leakin Park and that he put the car in a lake. So I think that s all that anonymous call was. Going forward with my theory of who I do think did it, I think Jenn is far more involved in this than she s letting on. In Episode 4 of Serial the Inconsistencies episode, we hear from Jenn and we hear what she said to the police and she claims that she got a call from Jay to pick her up. She shows up at the mall, Adnan and Jay are both there. Jay says Hey what s up girl? She said his clothes didn t look dirty, he seemed normal. Jay gets in her car, Adnan gets back in his car, drives away. And then immediately Jay tells her, Oh my God, Adnan killed Hae. We got to go get these shovels. We ve got to clean the shovels off and throw them in a dumpster. And then took all his clothes off and put them in a bag and threw his clothes away and did all this. And for a moment, I feel like the cops were on to something because they asked her, So wait a minute. You're telling me that Jay had nothing to do with this. For someone that didn t have anything to do with burying the body, why is he cleaning shovels? Plural shovels. I don t see one person running two shovels. So there was clearly more than one person digging. Why is he wiping fingerprints off of shovels and cleaning them and throwing them away? Why is he getting rid of his clothes if he had nothing to do with any of it? And so it s 23

24 like, oh they're right there, there on it. But then they just kind of let that go. They just buy Jay s story. So this is what I think happened that night in that exchange, that actual interview with Jenn. So go back and listen to Serial Episode 4 with this theory in your mind. Listen to it and then let me know what you think. I think either Jay killed Hae or Jenn killed Hae or Jay and Jenn killed Hae. Or Jay and Jenn and some third person killed Hae. I think they killed her while Adnan was at track practice. They killed her, they took her out, they buried her body, and then he gets the call from Adnan saying, Hey come pick me up from track practice. So, oh shit, now I got to go stop what I m doing. Go back and pick up Adnan. He can t tell Adnan what he did, obviously, so he has to act like it s a normal day. They go get some food. They drive around a little bit. They smoke some weed. Whatever it is that they did for those couple of hours. When Jenn gets contacted, she shows up. Now in my theory at this point, Adnan has no idea anything happened. Jay, at least, if not Jay and Jenn, do know what happened. He s been trying to act normal around Adnan. He gets in a car with Jenn after Adnan leaves and he s clear. Then he says, Okay we need to go back and get those shovels and put them away and get rid of my clothes and all these things. So that s the only thing that makes sense to me. That during that time, he had to act normal around Adnan and then after Adnan was gone, then he went back and tried to cover his tracks. He just ran out of time because Adnan got out of track practice. Trying to compare that information with the idea that Adnan did it and Jay was with him burying the body, none of that makes any sense whatsoever. If Adnan and Jay did it, and they're riding around the car together, and Jay was concerned that these shovels need to be gotten rid of, don t you think that he would have told Adnan, Hey man, we need to go get these shovels. We need to put those shovels somewhere else. We need to get rid of them. Why would he wait until after Adnan s gone and then immediately involve another person in this? If his story is true, he would want to keep this completely secret but immediately tells somebody else, Jenn, what happened and then asks her to get involved and help go dispose of this evidence. That doesn t make any sense at all. If Adnan was involved, he would have been helping Jay get rid of the evidence. You can t have it both ways. People are trying to paint Adnan in this way that he s like this manipulative, brilliant murderer, but he s so dumb that he leaves all this evidence laying around. It doesn t make any sense. Also, Jenn even admitted he didn t look disheveled. He didn t look dirty. He was acting normal. And, of course, people have said, Well, maybe Adnan is a sociopath. Nothing before or after that day would lead anybody to believe that Adnan Syed is a sociopath. He was normal in school. He actually excelled in school. Did a great job. He was popular. He was friendly. People liked him. No issues with violence, nothing like that. After he was locked up, he s been a model citizen and model inmate in prison. He s just nothing about him reflects, you know, in thirty years of life, nothing reflects what they said he was doing that day, which is like this brilliant murderer who s too dumb to dispose of things. So that s part of the reason why I don t believe whatsoever that Adnan had anything to do with it. I also don t believe that, like I said, Jay, as soon as he s done committing this crime with Adnan, gets out of his car and then immediately tells Jenn what he did and wants 24

25 her to help bury evidence. I mean that s a hell of a risk. To take your friend and just say, Hey, I was just involved in a murder, I need you to help me get rid of the evidence. I mean, that right there is risking somebody just calling the police and sending you to jail. I believe thoroughly that Jenn was involved in this murder. And that it happened while Adnan was at track practice. And that Adnan had nothing to do with whatsoever and then she helped clean up the pieces afterwards. Is it possible Jenn had nothing to do with it? Yes, that s possible. Is it possible Jay had nothing to do with it? Absolutely not. Jay definitely had something to do with it. So how could all this have gone down? Just completely speculating, taking a shot in the dark, a theory that I ve considered is that Hae caught Jay and Jenn stepping out as the Gootz said in court. Caught them having an affair. Somehow that got heated and somehow that led to Jay or Jenn or both killing Hae and burying the body. That s one of the few theories that I have that I can t disprove. That doesn t mean that s the correct theory. But so far, I have not found any evidence that can tell me nope, that absolutely is not what happened. That she witnessed them cheating, said something, said she s going to tell Stephanie, whatever was happening, and she ended up dead because of it. So that s all the theories that I have for you for this week. Looking forward to tomorrow when Undisclosed Jay s Day comes out, Episode 3. Originally my plan here was to go every other week, but I think that s too long for me and if you're enjoying this podcast and your enjoying Undisclosed, I m sure you d like to have a little more content. And also I didn t realize when I first created this that those addendums with the Undisclosed podcast would be every week. So what I m going to try to do is you guys keep sending me in your thoughts and theories be it Twitter or . The address again is theories@serialdynasty.com and I m going to try to do an episode every Sunday. That s my plan. I can guarantee you they won t all be this long. I may do kind of like what Undisclosed is doing and every other week do a shorter episode, an addendum, if you will. But I m sure that there s going to be tomorrow when Undisclosed comes out, there s going to be a lot of new information and I m not going to want to wait two weeks to talk about it. So look for another episode of Serial Dynasty next Sunday. And right about now, you might be thinking, Man, this would be a great time to have some nice closing scoring music or background music or theme music playing in the background as we close out the show. So I want to try something. I was going to try to put together some kind of a theme music. I don t want to steal music for another show. There s some weird fair use laws in there when you're talking about a show, whether you can use their music. I m just not going to cross that bridge. So we have thousands of listeners out there, if anyone out there would like to help out and kind of help participate in this and wants to create some theme music for us, get in touch with me on . Maybe it s something where we just record a couple of quick scores and shoot me an MP3 and I will use them on the podcast as we go forward, kind of keeping with our theme of being listener-driven. And I ll be of course sure to give you credit for all of that if anybody is interested in doing something like that. 25

26 As we go forward, if you like the show, please do a couple of things. Number one, tell your friends. The more listeners we have, the more content that we ll have to talk about, the more s that we can get in. Chat about us on Twitter. Again, our Twitter handle That If you do like this show, then I would love for you to take a few minutes out of your day and go onto itunes and rate and review the show. I would really appreciate that, it actually does help me out quite a bit as far as where our placement is on the itunes feed, where we come up when people search for the show. You can always listen to all of my episodes on the website SerialDynasty.com. If you're looking for something else to do to fill the gap between the dynasty of all the Serial podcasts, go and check out my other podcast, Off Duty podcast. It s very different from this. It s a group of three firefighters and a guest and it is more of a comedy podcast than a talk show, so if you're just looking for something to listen to to fill the gaps between all of your Serial content, please check us out. We re on itunes and Stitcher. Oh, also, Serial Dynasty is now available on Stitcher if that s where you prefer to listen to your podcasts. I had another listener tweet and ask if I could put the podcast on TuneIn Radio and I have submitted that. TuneIn creates content manually, meaning it s not as simple as submitting an RSS feed, but I submitted all the information to them through and they're supposed to be getting back with me in the next few days and letting me know if we re approved. So keep looking on TuneIn between the next episode, see if we re up on there. And until next time, I m Bob, this has been The Serial Dynasty podcast. [01:22:36] End of Episode * s and listener names are transcribed from the audio and may not match original s. Transcription by 26

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