The Genesis Process Guest: Michael Dye Host: Noel Meador

Transcription

1 The Genesis Process Guest: Michael Dye Host: Noel Meador

2 Noel: Welcome to Oxygen365. I'm your host, Noel Meador, and this is episode number 15. Today's guest is Michael Dye. Michael has worked with hurting and addicted people for over 20 years. He is a California national level two and international certified addiction counselor. He developed the Genesis Process which is a hugely successful relapse prevention program while he and his wife, Cathy, were the program directors for the Santa Barbara Rescue Mission. And in addition to his private counseling practice, Michael works full-time training counselors and churches in the Genesis counseling skills. Michael welcome to the show. Michael: Right. Actually it's been 35 years. Noel: Thirty-five! Well, I'll tell you. You've been one of those guests that I've really been looking forward to having on the show because I think the topic we are going to discuss today is very relevant. Unfortunately, it's become way more relevant than I think many of us would like it to but at the same time I think there's a lot of misinformation out there about addiction and how to get help. Is there hope? All those kind of things. So I'm just going to jump right in there. But excited to have you. I know that as someone who has done a lot of counseling and working with couples this is a topic that comes up a lot. So let's just start by defining addiction and for someone who is addicted, whether its behavior or a substance, how do you define that? How to you define that someone is addicted. Michael: Well it's actually pretty simple, and I like that the simpler something is the more effective it is. I define addiction as when we continue to do something that we know is not good for us, something that's self-destructive, and we continue to do it anyway despite the consequence. So the logical thing, if I'm doing something that I know is not really good for me, then why don't I stop it? Then there is something else in place there. But I think it also really important to define the word recovery. And this is foundational to Genesis and what we are seeing different pertaining sobriety and recovery. For sobriety, this means to abstain. You are not doing it anymore. But the word recovery which is misused so much actually means to return to a former healthy state. In other words, become the person you were before you were abused or traumatized and then start a coping behavior in order to deal with it. So that's what real recovery is. It's to become the person you were before the trauma caused you to become addicted to coping behaviors. So that's different than what most people see because... Noel: That is. Absolutely because I think a lot of people think of addiction as sobriety, right? They think, I haven't had an ounce of alcohol for 25 years thus I don't have an addiction. But I think we all a lot of times step over and Michael Dye 2

3 quickly move to sobriety versus recovery which you put a lot of emphasis on. Let me start by asking what contributes to the development of an addiction? Michael : Let me say that if you give up a coping behavior without dealing with what's it's there for, what it's there to cope with, you end up having to trade one addiction for another. And you would call it trading seats on the Titanic. What it was coping with is still in play and still the pain or whatever it is and so you have to end up finding another way to cope with it. So there's not real freedom in that and, of course, sometimes your new coping behavior may be better than the old coping behavior. But still, if the issues that are driving the addiction aren't dealt with, then you just have to find a new way to cope. Noel: Take us into the mind of an addict. I think that's where it starts, right? A lot of the stuff that we're talking about today is central to what is going on, the chemicals and even the way that we're processing the pain, the trauma that you referenced. Can you walk us through that? What's going on in the mind of an addict? Michael: Well look at the definition we have of addiction, which is doing something self-destructive in spite of the consequences. I haven't met anybody who, in that term, isn't an addict which means everyone does something. It's just that some of them are more destructive than others but actually most of the roots of addiction we know now happen in the first two years of life, unfortunately. Noel: In the first two years? Michael: Actually, in the first nine months and this is how it works. It's that in the first nine months to a year, two years at the most of life, that little baby's brain makes a simple decision. Whether the world is safe or dangerous. If the world is safe, the brain wires itself into an exploratory and creative brain but if you grow up in what we call chronic inescapable stress, then the brain wires itself into a hyper-vigilant brain. I'm going to oversimplify things. So what happens is there's this part of our brains called the limbic system which interestingly enough is the very heart of the brain. It's the very center of the brain. It controls everything that you don't control. Noel: Yeah, I've heard that. Michael: And so when the brain becomes hyper-vigilant, which means the world is dangerous, the neurochemistry of the brain changes a lot and usually that comes from, like you said, chronic inescapable stress. So the bottom line of it in these first couple of years is that when our ability to bond, trust, and attach Michael Dye 3

4 to other people gets damaged, then we have to learn to have to meet our own needs. It's called self-gratification. And that's not the way we're designed. We're designed to get our needs met through relationships, both relationships with God and with people. And, of course, what we call a double bind is that we are social bonding human beings who wound each other. So the thing that I need the most is also the thing that's wounded me the most. See what I mean? So it's relationships that messed this up, and it's relationships that'll heal us. But if we get into this place where we can't bond, trust, and attach to other people or God, then we have to learn to self-gratify. And this is a key not only to addiction but also to recovery because all addiction is self-gratification. I mean everybody can find a flaw on that. Noel: Now that's an interesting definition. Wow. Michael: It's so simple and the more simple you make something the more powerful it is. So if all addiction is self-gratification, then all recovery is going to be what? Learning to get all needs met, as we were designed, from gratification from other people. So when I'm down, depressed, angry, lonely, I'm designed to get that part of me filled, which is my heart or this limbic system, filled with relationships from other people and that makes me a healthy human being. But if I can't trust other people because I've been so wounded by them, then I have to learn to self-gratify. And that's what all addictions do. And especially when we are talking about... I know you have a lot of military personnel. But all addictions do the same thing. They temporarily push unwanted thoughts, feelings, and memories out of your awareness. And it takes energy to do that. So when you begin to get into recovery all those thoughts, feelings and memories begin to come forward. And that's why you can't do recovery alone because this part of the brain, this limbic system has a very simple memory system. You remember things that have to do with fear and pain. It says, "Avoid it." And then it has a memory system that says, "Anything that has to do with pleasure and reward do it again." So there you have the addictive brain. Fear and pain, avoid it. Pleasure and reward, do it again. So anything that takes away fear and pain we become almost instantly addicted to. And what the brain does is that any behavior, or emotion, or substance that it associates with survival, "I need this to survive," then it puts out a unique emotion called a craving. And a craving is a unique emotion where only real or imagined survival is at stake. So that's where Genesis has pioneered part of this field is that if we can find why the brain is actually putting forth a craving for something that's bad for me and we can change that part of the brain, if you can eliminate craving, you can eliminate relapse. And all this is unconscious, all subconscious. No one can tell me, why Michael Dye 4

5 are you such an angry person? Why are you anxious? Why do you shoot heroin? That's unconscious. But the answers are in the person and a good counselor, which is what we train Genesis people to do, is to ask the right questions and we call it "Name the sucker". So I think the interesting part of this is what we are discovering now is for 2000 years or more than that, people have known there's this part of us which is called our heart. It's this mysterious part. We are not talking about the thing that beats in my chest. Noel: I was gonna say, I need clarification. Michael: We're talking about the thing that is broken, or the thoughts and intentions of our hearts, And even Paul in The Bible says, "It's with our heart that we believe the results in righteousness." And I really got on that when I heard that. So our heart is where our belief systems are and it results in righteousness which is how we behave. So the simplicity of it, if you want to change how you behave you have to change your heart. And that's been the challenge. How do we change the heart? Noel: So to just clarify with the listeners when you talk about heart, what are you actually talking about? If it's not the physical beating heart, is that the will, the emotions, my mind? Michael: The dictionary and all calls the heart it's the center of ourselves. It's the center of our beliefs and emotions. But, actually, this is where understanding this and then understanding all the new brain scan technology that we have is actually what we call the limbic system. Noel: So it's actually the limbic system. Michael: Right, it is what we've called the heart all these years. It's gonna ruin all the country western songs for sure. You broke my limbic system. Noel: I like it. I think that might be a next best seller. Michael: Let me explain why this is so fascinating. It's exciting because it's the first time in history we actually know what's broken with self-destructive behavior, and now that we know what's broken we are being able to come up with ways to treat it. "So the limbic system, I'll just read this, "controls our experiential memory." And that's really important. It's not, call it, a primal brain or a reptilian brain. It only records these experiences, and experiences that have to with fear and pain. Avoid it. Pleasure-reward. Do it again. Very simple. It controls our emotions and especially how we react to new experiences. So when I had old experiences that something has hurt me, for example, say I get Michael Dye 5

6 bitten by a dog. So for a while, my limbic system, every time I see a dog, it's going to create an emotion called anxiety, which just says, "Be careful. These are dogs. They're going to bite you." And so what heals it is when you start having new and good experiences with dogs. So it's experiences that mess us up, and it's experiences with relationships that are going to heal us. It also controls unconscious learning, dreaming, attention, pleasure and reward, arousal. I mean, all our pleasure reward chemicals that if we're doing good things or chemicals or all these things, all that reward system is in the limbic system. It also... an arousal, all that sexual arousal. That's all in the limbic system. Sex is not in the genitals. It's in your brain. The expression of emotional, motivational, sexual and social behavior including the formation of loving attachments, which is why we've always had songs and poetry and all these things about the heart. It also controls the cravings for pleasure inducing, drugs, food, sex, gambling, or other real or imagined survival needs. Apostle Paul was a strong guy. He was strong willed. He went through a lot of things and he was a tough guy. He said, "In my mind, I want to serve the law of God, but in my behavior I do the very thing I don't want to do." So he makes an interesting statement. He says, "If I'm doing the very thing I don't want to do, it's not me doing it." So what he is saying is, "Why in my conscious and my good intentions there's something in me that's stronger than me that causes me to do the very thing that I don't want to do?" For 150 years psychology has recognized this and they call it the unconscious. So we blame the unconscious for everything, but the trouble is how do we change it? How do we heal this? Like I said it's the... Noel: Let me ask you this question. Is it possible to recover in isolation? Have you ever seen anyone actually be able to overcome an addiction by themselves without community? Michael: Well, I've seen them going through sobriety. Noel: So that's the differentiation? Michael: Sobriety but not recovery. And most of the people who just quit on themselves. About 10% of people actually just quit an addiction on their own. But we call them dry drunks because their personality and the issues that they were having that caused them to drink didn't get resolved. So a lot of times they become angry, isolated, defensive kinds of people, but not always. Noel: Here's another question. This is so fascinating to me when you start to actually peel back the layers of addiction and then talk about recovery. I'm sure Michael Dye 6

7 you've heard of something called Schick Shadel. Have you ever heard of that therapy? Michael: Schick Shadel? Noel: Yeah, Schick Shadel. Okay, thank you for correcting me. I just know enough about it that I don't want to ever have to do it. But essentially, for someone who is an alcoholic, one of the ways they overcome that addiction is they begin to serve you your favorite cocktail, let you drink that, and then they begin to put this substance that makes you throw up repeatedly. I've talked to several people who have gone through that and it literally cured them, but I'm just wondering are they missing a part of the equation as you are talking about when it comes to recovery? Michael: Well it's reprogramming the brain in associating something that was pleasure with pain. So it's switching that. But also what was there to cope with hasn't changed. With that kind of pain reprogramming, it can last for up to six months but if you don't deal with the core of it, that it's relationships that messed us up and it's relationships that are gonna heal it. So like I say, the brain records pleasure and pain. Well, unfortunately, when it comes to addiction, 100% of the pleasure, excuse me, of the pain and fear in our lives comes from relationships. Noel: Or hate. Michael: It's not physical pain that causes us to become addicted. And actually people who get addicted to say morphine or physical pain, when the pain goes away they get off of it. For example, 80% of the men who were addicted to heroin in the Vietnam War just stopped when they came home. So when they get into a different environment, it'll change everything. Noel: So we've been focusing on the one who is addicted. I want to switch and put a focus on the family member, the spouse, the partner who is actually in the relationship with someone who is addicted. What do you say to them? They are living this reality, whether it's the craziness of it or just the pain of it. What do you suggest they do? I mean part of it is, one, do they even know what's happening? So has this thing gone underground? And this could be more and more the sexual addiction arena or just generally the addiction of an alcoholic and having to live in that kind of situation. What do you say to them? Michael: Well, as human beings it's pain that motivates us to change. So anything that minimizes the pain or consequences of their behavior and choices actually adds to the addiction. There's an old saying that says, "Enablers kill Michael Dye 7

8 more addicts than drugs do." What we do with someone who is active in their addiction is we take away all their enablers. For example, someone who is a rage-a-holic, someone who is an enabler, allowing them to get away with that kind of hurtful, angry, fearful, abusive behavior without any kind of consequences. So that's the first thing we do is take away all their enablers so that their pain will come up which will motivate them to change. Noel: So what does this look like? I just have to drill down because this is really fascinating. You've removed the enablers, but what if the spouse is the enabler? How do you remove them? Michael: Of course! Of course she is. Noel: So how do you remove her? Or him? Michael: Well, it's not removing her. It's getting her some support. One of the programs out there that's most successful with that is Al-Anon. Al-Anon is a program where I have seen so many lives helped and changed through that program because there's a lot of wisdom there especially with women who have been living with a destructive person for some time, and they learn how to either detach from that person or to live with the behavior and not become sick themselves, which is what we call codependency or relationship addiction. Noel: Would you say that codependency is one of the primary mechanisms that keeps people in addiction? As long as that's there? Michael: Codependency looks for an altruistic. But it's actually just as selfish as any other addiction and so when you change the name of something, it really becomes more powerful. Codependency doesn't really mean much. It's a vague name, but when you a relationship addiction. In other words, a relationship addict feels responsible for other people's problems, feelings, and behaviors. In Genesis we say, "Why do you feel responsible for my behaviors?" This is the way it works. A codependent says, "I'm okay when you're okay. But when you're not okay, then I can't be okay. I'm guilty, or I'm fearful, or anxious. The only way for me to be okay is to make you okay. So I'm addicted to you." So it seems like it's very altruistic but it's actually, "I need you to make my bad feelings go away just like a heroin addict or an alcoholic would feel anxious or depressed and take their drug. So I'm addicted to you because I can't be okay unless I control you being okay." See what I mean? That's the core of codependency. And codependency, where it usually comes from, the origins of it is where children become responsible for adult behaviors. There are alcoholics, divorce, rage-a-holics in the home and the children try to hold the Michael Dye 8

9 home together because it's part of their limbic survival and they lose themselves into other people's behaviors for their survival. And one thing is a misnomer because people say, now we know with the limbic system, is "Time heals all wounds." That's a lie. Nothing goes away until it's resolved. Because the limbic system doesn't have a sense of time. It doesn't know the difference between 40 years ago and yesterday. It only remembers things that have hurt me, or things that have caused me fear and pain and anxiety, and then I react to them. So what we call that is when someone pushed your button. It caused you to over or under react to a situation. In Genesis, we pretty much ignore the behavior and we say, "Well, whose button is it? And what button were they able to push? What's the name of that button?" Which is in the term of a belief system. And so the other choice is to push people away where they can't get close enough to push your button, which is what most people unconsciously do, or you can get the button removed and that's real freedom. Noel: So is it that at the heart of this whole thing is the belief system? For someone who's fully recovered, it's not just the behavior modification or change. It's a belief change. Is that correct? Michael: Right. So for example we are talking about codependency. In Genesis, we have about 30 or 40 of these belief systems that we found that drive most self-destructive behavior. We've already said one for codependency which is I'm responsible for other people's feelings, problems, or behaviors, but the other belief system that drives codependency is that if I'm not in control then something bad will happen. So they feel responsible. What happens is beliefs create emotions and emotions drive behavior. So for example, one of the major addictions we have in this country that people don't even think is an addiction is stress. We're a stressed out society. Well, when you change the name of something, stress is anxiety, right? That's what stress is. And what is anxiety? It's a nice name for fear. So instead of saying, "I'm stressed out today," say, "What I am I afraid of?" And that's why we have a thing in Genesis we call a devil buying worksheet which we call "name the sucker." So if you are going to feel anxiety today, you have to feel something to create that emotion. So we pretty much ignore the anxiety because it's a road to the belief system. Your emotion has the belief system in it, but the tricky part of it is you can't get to it yourself. And that's why at Genesis we train the counselors to only ask questions because it's your life, it's your trauma, and how you cope to react to it is all in you, not in me. But I can ask the right questions in a safe atmosphere Michael Dye 9

10 that the limbic system will begin to reveal its secrets and that's why we have the change groups. There's rules and structures with these change groups and the main thing about it is when it gets safe, right? Then these unconscious, sabotaging belief systems will begin to reveal themselves. So when you have anxiety, is one thing right? What do you do about that? You have to take some drugs or do some yoga or something, but when you get to the belief system now it's all things. So that's the key to real recovery is you had a trauma and you create a belief system. "I'll never trust anybody again. All men are..." You know, or a real common on under addictions, especially for men, is that, "No matter how hard I try, it will never be enough." So we would say there's the belief system, so how does that make you feel? Angry, anxious and the next question is how does that affect you in your relationship? So this is where it gets tricky. How do you change the belief system because it was established experientially? So talk therapy doesn't work with addictions. Noel: This is so huge what you're talking about because I think so many people don't realize the power of trauma and that ultimately it was an experience that created it and then they're thinking if I do the talk part. So tell me, what is your prescription to help as it relates to that trauma and it being experiential? Michael: Let me say out of the trauma came a survival belief system. I got wounded, rejected. I will never trust anyone again, which is extremely the most common belief system for people who have been abused or people coming out of war and PTSD. Let me put it this way. The mind will replay what the heart doesn't delete. Noel: So let me just make sure I get that. So the mind will replay what the heart has not deleted. So the limbic system has not deleted it is what you're saying. Michael: That's right. So the mind is trying to replay it. So I think it's most common with PTSD. Noel: Okay. So let's just stop there for a moment because we have a lot of listeners that we have worked with on the side of being wounded, ill, and injured and most of them invisible wounds, PTSD. So let's just camp out here for a second. Michael: Yeah, they're limbic wounds. So with PTSD what's happened is they went through traumatic experiences which don't make sense. I think I talked to before a little bit about this. Like World War II there wasn't nearly as much of this because it was real clear that we were the good guys, Hitler and Japan were the bad guys, and we saw a lot of bad things. Our friends die and did a lot of things, but it was worth it because we won. You see what I mean? So my brain Michael Dye 10

11 is able to put it away and compartmentalize it and say, Yeah all that trauma was worth it because the outcome was good. But where you have Vietnam and Afghanistan, it's a war that we didn't win. We're not going to win so how do you justify, compartmentalize, especially justify, all the things that you saw and did? You were traumatized. It doesn't make sense, you see? So the heart hasn't been able to put it away and compartmentalize it so the brain keeps playing over and over again trying to find a way to resolve it. Noel: So how do you delete? I think a lot of people want to know, "How do I delete that trauma?" We are talking about PTSD. These things happened. I didn't necessarily sign up to see them happen, but they've happened nonetheless and now my brain can't turn it off. So how do they delete it? Michael: Well, it's the same with all addictions, especially even with sex addiction, which I'm sure your military families are dealing with it. It's pandemic. Sixty percent of all divorces in the United States now have pornography as a major issue. The average age of a first viewer of pornography is between 8 and 11 years old and it gets younger and younger all the time. So it's really screwing up people's ability to have relationships, which is in the limbic system. When you mess that up, then what's your whole life going to be like? If we are not able to live in a way that we were designed and the key is the word designed. So there are therapies now that are trying to work with this. EMDR is one, used now with PTSD and it's somewhat successful. Noel: And what is that for our listeners. Is that rapid eye movement? Michael: Yeah, desensitizing the brain, the limbic system of trauma. So what has to happen is that the memory of the trauma has to be changed and there has to be a new memory there. And, of course, in Genesis because it has to be experiential that's where we do the counseling and that's where God comes into it. Basically, with all addictions the first place you go is with God. The 12 step programs, everywhere. In other words, I can't control this thing and there has to be a power or strength outside of me, a higher power of some sort that is going to give me a strength that I don't have myself to help me overcome this. And the thing is, He does that through people. So when we find name the sucker and get the belief system, no matter how hard I try, it's never good enough because I grew up in a farm or whatever it was. No one ever worked hard enough and I became a workaholic, rage-a-holic, a sex addict. And to go back into the emotion, we call it the road to the wound, and there's several other processes that do this, that uses the emotion to get back to the original memory. And it's called body memories. Our mind can play all sorts of games with us and deceive us, but our body remembers. And so when a person Michael Dye 11

12 does something and I react, I have a body reaction, an overreaction, especially with sexual abuse survivors and that sort of thing. That is because it's reacting to that original memory. So when the person, we have 400 or 500 groups going with this and we have thousands and thousands go through this, and I'm a "what works" guy. And when people have an experience with God who reframes that memory, in other words, we take the belief system to God say, "God what's the truth about this belief system?" When He speaks to the person individually, then that is experiential and it changes the belief system. I do one exercise with 200 to 300 people at a seminar at once. And we'll say find a "I don't trust anybody" or "No matter how hard I try it's never good enough." And we'll say, "How strong is that emotion in their body?" "Oh, it's a 10." We take them through this process and in 10 minutes after they have this experience, I'll go, "Okay, say it again." And they say it's not there. They don't believe it and so their body is not producing that emption anymore. Noel: I got to make sure I'm clear on this. So you have a group of 200 to 300 people, you select someone from the audience to come up who is dealing with... Michael: No, I take the whole group through. Noel: Oh, you take the whole group through it? Michael: We have several different ones, but everything in Genesis is geared towards using reactions and problems in life to get to this belief system, to heal the belief system. So that's where recovery is. It is returning to a former healthy state to the person you were and changing the coping belief system that is there. So the bottom line is this, and it especially comes to the bummer of all the research and it's very good research, that most things happen in the first year of life. Our propensity to become addicted happens then. So whatever we substitute for love and relationships we can never get enough of. And that's the core of addiction. I'm living in a way that I'm not designed to live so how do I cope with that? And that's where the brain starts to equate things with survival. So addiction, interestingly enough, is not about getting high. People who get high don't get addicted. Addiction is about being normal. I'm anxious, I'm depressed, can't cope today so I do this behavior or I take a substance and now I'm okay. I can cope. So the brain says you need this to be normal to survive and so it creates a craving for it. Our basic cravings in the limbic system, there are only three basically: food, sex, and safety. We have natural cravings for food. We have natural cravings for sex and for safety. Which means, if you are normal and that's where drugs and alcohol and all that come into it. That's why food and sex have the lowest recovery rates because Michael Dye 12

13 they are natural cravings. Where alcohol is not a natural craving, but food and sex are and when they are perverted into coping with areas they weren't designed to cope with, then we can never get enough of it. Noel: Wow. So I have to ask the question. If you're saying that the propensity towards addiction happens within the first year of life, is it possible to overcome this? Michael: Oh, sure. Noel: Can you put a percentage on it? How many people go through your Genesis process that actually come through it and are healed on the other end or recovery is part of that? Michael: Well, it's hard to say because we have groups and all that, but we get things all the time that say, "I went through this process, and I'm a different person." And all sorts of agencies are using the one on one relapse prevention process if you have two processes, the group process. We have DVDs with that so you can facilitate it. And then we have a one on one process for more severe residential recovery relapse prevention but that has to be done by a trained counselor. Noel: That's an interesting question and we're coming to the end of the show but I need to ask. There seems like there are different levels of addiction in terms of severity. How do you classify that? Let's say I'm in a relationship and I think they might have an addiction but I'm not really sure. And yet, if they were to come to your process, you'd say, "No, this is a whole different situation." Michael: Way of approaching things. In order to get into recovery, you first have to have sobriety. So the most successful program for sobriety in the world is the 12 Step, AA and NA type program. And it's interesting because we know it's about our heart and limbic system. One of the reasons that 12 steps groups work is a phenomenon called herding, like a herd of animals, is when you get into a herd of like animals or humans, it raises serotonin in the brain. And serotonin decreases dopamine which is where cravings are. So an addict will say, "I got to get to a meeting today," because they are starting to have cravings. And when they get into their own herd there, serotonin comes up and reduces the cravings and that's why the AA people don't go to an NA meeting. It's a different herd. They don't work. A lot of Christian people want to have a church group rather than an AA group. The bottom line is all addictions are extremely isolating because of that belief system. I can't trust anybody. It's nobody's business. And also the fear of they're going to make me give up this behavior and then how am I going to cope? Michael Dye 13

14 Noel: How am I going to handle life? Michael: But see, the limbic system is programmed to help you avoid fear and it's not safe to face those memories and feelings, thoughts, and memories alone but when you get into a crowd, then the limbic system will senses a sense of safety and will allow you to feel some of these things because you have to feel to heal because the belief system is in the emotion. So if you can't feel, you really can't heal. And so, especially with PTSD, they are so overwhelmed and I've been through things like that where you have to just shut down, in India or Egypt or just the poverty and death you have to just shut it down. And if you do that very often, then it will just come back and for a lot of us, especially the men, we were taught that our emotions are something you don't feel. You can't have your own problems. Don't ask for help and those kinds of things. And so it's very difficult for us sometimes to heal because we were taught at a very early age not to feel. Noel: My last question. This has been so good. You are on the frontlines of some of the biggest cultural issues in our society and really having a massive impact on us. So I thank you again for taking this interview. Thirty five years you've been in this and you've seen a lot. What would you say is the one thing, if there's one thing you can communicate to that addict today, the person who is just at the breaking point and in so much pain and isolated, what would you say to them? Michael: Well, I'd say one thing we have in Genesis it says, "The right thing to do is the hard thing to do." And what's the hardest thing especially for men? Ask for help. And that's where all recovery really begins with humility. And humility says, "Ask for help," whereas pride says, "I can do it myself." So it actually opens up the heart this humility. And, of course, that's what hitting a bottom is. I work with people who don't have a bottom. They go into the ER and get jump started and then walk right back out and use. They don't seem to have a bottom, but a bottom comes when the pain of the behavior gets to be greater than the pain of giving up the behavior. Then and only then will people begin to start getting into recovery. So that's why we want to take away all their enablers, which are usually family members, or sometimes it's even the government giving them welfare so they don't have to get together end up using their welfare for drugs and all that. Even with some of the PTSD work I've seen done, it validates how bad they feel and how messed up they are without giving them the most powerful part of the recovery which is something called hope. Hope is a very powerful noun. It's something you have or you don't have. People who have it are affected much Michael Dye 14

15 differently than people who don't have it. And hope actually comes from change, and change comes from taking a risk. And so, I think you were saying an addict, they take the risk to go to a meeting and ask for help, and then they see other people there that are changing. So it gives them hope. And hope is what gets you through a bad day whereas with hopelessness, you won't be able to think of one reason not to use when you have a bad day. So these are all key to the brain and the things we've known for years, but now we understand the neurobiology of it and the spiritual component, and how the two together actually change our heart. Noel: Well, what we've been talking about is called The Genesis Process and this is Michael Dye. And I just want to say, Michael, thank you. Again, this has been a wealth of information and not just information, actual information that can change lives. And so, to that end, thank you for what you are doing. For you that are listening, all this information about how to get a hold of The Genesis Process, tell our audience a little bit of if they need to take that next step, what can they do? I know that you have several different things that they can begin to do right now. Michael: We have a website and it's genesisprocess.org, and that has information about materials we have and how to start groups. And there's also a map on there of groups program for people who are looking for help. Or, now with the groups, since we have DVDs, people can start their own group. It's pretty easy as long as you follow the rules because you've got to have the safe atmosphere for the secrets of the limbic system to begin to manifest. It's amazing how people have an experience of, I'll just put it this way, of God moving through people to change their lives without professionals and moving through them to change other people's lives in these groups. And there are some YouTube videos that explain some of this stuff also, but we try to keep it pretty simple. Noel: So is the training to be a facilitator of your program, is it that online or do I have to come to an actual event? Michael: For the group training, we have DVDs. And I take everybody through each process and introduction, but there's also a whole DVD on there on how to train the facilitators to run the groups, which really isn't difficult now that we have the DVDs to follow along. Now the one on one, more intensive and inner healing kind of process that we have for rehab prevention, I do those live trainings. I may have one coming up in Coeur d'alene in the fall. I don't do too many of them anymore. I'm getting older. I don't travel very well, but now we have an online training where people can go through the one on one counselor training online. And it's actually better in some ways because they can go Michael Dye 15

16 through it slowly rather than being overwhelmed in four and a half days with all this information. Noel: Yeah, because what you shared in the last forty minutes I'm going to have to take some time to process through. It is a lot. Michael: It is a lot, but the main thing is that there's hope because we actually know what's broken, And we know that whether it's heroin addiction, alcohol, or rage-a-holic or even an anxiety addiction. Anxiety addiction is probably the most destructive addiction in our country today, and people don't even know it's an addiction. Noel: I'd never even heard that. Michael: But anything that speeds up the body, dulls the awareness of physical and emotional pain. So anxiety and anger neurochemically, when we look at the brain scans, it's almost identical to cocaine. So, how do people get anxiety? They worry. They worry because why? Because it creates anxiety and anxiety speeds you up and, basically, outruns depression and you become addicted to it. So people are wound up, stressed all day and say they don't like it, but in Genesis we say, "What would happen if you gave up anxiety? Why be depressed? So would you rather be anxious or depressed?" "I'd rather be anxious." Noel: You're just trading one for the other. Michael: Yeah, but it's all unconscious. But when you get to the belief system that creates anxiety and you get some healing to that belief system, then there's some freedom. And especially with food, like food you would say, "Why do you eat when you're not hungry?" We ignore the dieting. When you answer that question, then we can begin to heal. Why do you have this craving for food when you're not hungry? It's the limbic system. So this is kind of how it works and that's why I'm so excited about it because we are seeing people really get free rather than just find systems to cope with their behavior for the rest of their lives and relapse back and forth. Noel: Well, I'm already seeing episode number two coming here shortly and, no, I'm just kidding, but it's so true because we spend so much time working with couples and yet all of this is so connected. You can teach behavioral modification, communication skills, resolve conflict but if you're not getting to the heart of the matter which is often times the belief system, all that stuff can be an attempt to help but I don't think it really hits where it needs to. Michael Dye 16

17 Michael: A lot of the times what happens with couples is that we find that people are okay until they get married, and then when they get married it's the first time they let somebody get close enough to them to push their buttons. And so they react to the person whose pushing the button, but they're not the person who put the button there. So you get these reactions with each other from your childhood stuff and pushing these limbic wounds. It's like when you have a sore in your arm. Somebody comes up and grabs it. They didn't put the sore there but what's your reaction to them? You get angry, and that's a limbic kind of reaction to pain. So that's one thing for couples is communication skills and all that are happening but we call our road to the wound that when you get your button pushed or an overreaction, it's an opportunity through that incident, through the body memory to get to the original wound and heal the memory. And that's what changes the behavior. Noel: Yeah, I think episode number two is definitely coming this way. Michael. It was fun. I thank you for allowing me to be on your show and maybe give some people some hope that there can be freedom, but it's a lot of work because you're moving towards the very fears that caused you to be selfdestructive in the first place. That takes a tremendous amount of courage and it takes the support of others. So that's why Genesis is built the way it does. Once we find out what was broken, we say, "Okay, so what's it going to take to what works?" Noel: Right. Well, everything that we have been referencing is right below this video, and I do want to let you know that there are some immediate steps that you can take just by going to genesisprocess.org, picking up the workbook, getting into a group. You have 500 groups all over the country. They can find those groups there. Michael: Yeah, most of them are at churches. Genesis is made to be spiritual but not religious. So people that either are not Christian, or are struggling with the whole concept of what God can do Genesis but, of course, you can't really change the heart very well without God. And the problem with that is He usually works through people, and that's where it gets messy. Noel: Well, Michael, thank you and we appreciate you being on the show. And thank you for all the work that you are doing with so many lives out there. Michael: All right, thanks, Noel. Thanks for having me. Michael Dye 17

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