StenoTran BETWEENIENTRE: RICHARD WARMAN. andlet ELDON WARMAN BEFOREIDEVANT: L'AGENTE DU GREFFE

Transcription

1 CANADAN TRBUNAL CANADEN HUMANRGHTS DES DROTS TRBUNAL DE LA PERSONNE CANADA BETWEENENTRE: Complanant RCHARD WARMAN Plagnant, andlet CANADAN HUMAN RGHTS COMMSSON Comnnsson Commsson! Respondent andlet ELDON WARMAN ntmc BEFOREDEVANT: PAUL GROARKE CHARPERSON/ PR~SDENT LNDA BARBER REGSTRY OFFCER L'AGENTE DU GREFFE FLE N0.~' CAUSE: T998/804 VOLUME: 4 LOCATONENDROT: Ottawa, Ontaro ' DATE: 2005/05/26 PAGES:

2 CANADAN HUMAN RGHTS TRBUNAL/ TRBUNAL CANADEN DES DROT DE LA PERSONNE HEARNG HELD N HEARNG ROOM NO. OF THE CANADAN HUMAN RGHTS TRBUNAL, 60 ELGN STREET, llth FLOOR, ON THURSDAY, MAY 26, 2005, AT :30 P.M. LOCAL TME. CASE FOR HEARNG/CAUSE DEVANT ~ TRE ENTENDUE N THE MATTER of the complant fled under secton 3() of the Canadan Human Rghts Act by Rchard Warman, dated June, 2003, a!ganst Eldon Warman. The Complanant alleges that the R,espondent has engaged n a dscrmnatory practce on the g,rounds of relgon and natonal and ethnc orgn n a matter r,elated to the usage of a telecommuncaton undertakng. Rlchard Warman Vplere Phllps Monette Mallet on hs own behalf Counsel for the Canadan Human Rghts Commsson

3 ! - - TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLES DES MAT~RES submssons on behalf of the Canadan Human Rghts Commsson Submssons by Mr. Rchard Warman Page

4 No. T;- 6 LST OF EXHBTS / P~CES JUSTCATVES Descrpton Affdavt of Servce dated the 9th day of May 2005, ndcatng that Randy Mlnes, Process Server, Calgary, Alberta, substtutonally served Eldon Warman by affxng documents to the man entry door at Avenue S.W., Calgary, Alberta Page Affdavt of Servce dated the 25th day of May 2005, sgned by Alex de Munck of the Cty of Calgary, n the Provnce of Alberta, regardng servce on the 3st day of March 2005 on Eldon Warman 3 74 Affdavt of Attempted Servce, sgned by Raymond Krk, sworn on May 25th, 2005, regardng attempted servce on Eldon Warman on May 7th, May 8th and May th 376

5 Ottawa, Ontaro --- Upon resumng on Thursday, May 26, 2005 at :30 p.m. REGSTRY OFFCER: Good afternoon. The hearng n the matter of the complant fled under secton 3() of the Canadan Human Rghts Act by Rchard Warman, dated June lst, 2003, aganst Eldon Warman s now resumed. Presdng s Dr. Paul Groarke. The Trbunal now calls for appearances. MS PHLLPS: Valere Phllps and Monette Mallet for the Commsson. MR. WARMAN: Rchard Warman. THE CHARPERSON: Good afternoon. REGSTRY OFFCER: s Eldon Warman n attendance at these proceedngs today, or s there anyone n attendance who has been apponted to represent Eldon Warman? Let the record reflect that no response was receved. THE CHARPERSON: n the crcumstances, thnk we wll take 5 mnutes and then come back, just to make absolutely sure Upon recessng at :3 p.m.

6 --- Upon resumng at :47 p.m. REGSTRY OFFCER: s Eldon Warman n attendance at these proceedngs today, or s there anyone n attendance who has been apponted to represent Eldon Warman? Let the record reflect that no response was receved. Mr. Char, have a document to be fled, whch was sent to Eldon Warman by the Canadan Human Rghts Trbunal, copes of whch dstrbuted to the partes pror to reconvenng. The document, whch wll be fled as Trbunal Exhbt T-6, s an Affdavt of Servce dated the 9th day of May 2005, ndcatng that Randy Mlnes, Process Server, Calgary, Alberta, substtutonally served Eldon Warman by affxng the followng documents to the man entry door at Avenue S.W., Calgary, Alberta: Notce of Resumpton of Hearng, dated May 2nd, 2005, ndcatng and hghlghtng the date and locaton for ths hearng; letter from the Trbunal, dated May 3rd, 2005, enclosng ths notce; and a copy of the Order for Substtutonal Servce ssued by the Canadan Human Rghts Trbunal on May 4th, EXHBT NO. T-6: Affdavt of

7 Servce dated the 9th day of May 2005, ndcatng that Randy Mlnes, Process Server, Calgary, Alberta, substtutonally served Eldon Warman by affxng documents to the man entry door at Avenue S.W., Calgary, Alberta THE CHARPERSON: thnk we turn to the Commsson, do we? MS PHLLPS: The Commsson has two Affdavts of Servce to fle. The frst s supplemental to the Affdavt of Servce that was fled at our tab C3, whch was the orgnal personal servce of Eldon Warman. The process server decded to draft a supplemental affdavt, detalng a bt more the events of that day. THE CHARPERSON: Was there an ncdent? Someone was throwng a rock, thnk. MS PHLLPS: That's correct, whch, hadn't been detaled n the Affdavt of Servce that was fled prevously. THE CHARPERSON: All rght. We wll have that marked.

8 REGSTRY OFFCER: s ths to replace 2 the prevous affdavt, or s t supplementary? 3 MS PHLLPS: t can replace the prevous affdavt. THE CHARPERSON: Then we would actually expunge t from the record. thnk t s better to add t as a supplementary document. want as full a record as possble. t won't affect anythng, but would lke t marked as a new exhbt. 2 MS PHLLPS: That's fne. 3 REGSTRY OFFCER: The Affdavt of 4 Servce dated the 25th day of May 2005, sgned by Alex ' 5 de Munck of the Cty of Calgary, n the Provnce of 6 Alberta, regardng servce on the 3st day of March ' on Eldon Warman, wll be fled as Commsson 8 Exhbt HR-50. EXHBT NO. HR-50: Affdavt of Servce daced the 25th day of May 2005, sgned by Alex de Munck of the Cty of Calgary, n the Provnce of Alberta, regardng servce on the 3st day of March 2005 on Eldon

9 Warman THE CHARPERSON: should note on the record that have read ths. There was an exchange of some sort when there was an attempt to serve Mr. Warman. wll read t nto the record. "The sad Respondent then pcked up a rock about the sze of hs hand. turned and advsed hm that f he touched me that would charge lm wth assault. He then stated 'you couldn't charge me wth assault because 'm gong to fuckng kll you. then ran to my car and left the area. " thnk t s sgnfcant to have those detals. t does say somethng about the atttude of Mr. Warman. Do you have another affdavt? MS PHLLPS: Yes. The second affdavt s the Affdavt of Attempted Servce. Attached to that affdavt s the letter wrote to Mr. Eldon Warman and a copy of the Trbunal Order that was attached.

10 376 The process server made three 2 attempts to serve Eldon Warman and was unsuccessful. 3 THE CHARPERSON: Dd the process 4 server, n the end, leave t at hs resdence? s that 5 bascally what happened? 6 MS PHLLPS: No, he dd not, because 7 we dd not have an order of substtutonal servce. They left ther card each tme, askng hm to contact them. THE CHARPERSON: see. Were there any communcatons wth anyone? Obvously they went to the door of what appears to be Mr. Warman's resdence. answer..." am readng t: "...receved no All rght. We wll have t marked as an exhbt. ' 20 REGSTRY OFFCER: The Affdavt of Attempted Servce, sgned by Raymond Krk, sworn on May 25th, 2005, regardng attempted servce on Eldon Warman 2 on May 7th, May 8th and May llth, wll be fled as 22 Commsson Exhbt HR EXHBT NO. HR-5: Affdavt of 24 Attempted Servce, sgned by 25 Raymond Krk, sworn on May 25th,

11 2005, regardng attempted servce on Eldon Warman on May 7th, May 8th and May th THE CHARPERSON: Ths contaned a letter, dd t? would lke to read the letter, f could have a mnute. --- (Pause) THE CHARPERSON: Agan, wll read ths nto the record. Ths s your letter to Mr. Warman. " am also wrtng at the request of the Trbunal to provde you wth notce that the Commsson s seekng a $0,000 penalty under s. 54() (c) of the Canadan Human Rghts Act as part of the remedes sought aganst you n ths.hearng..." Then there s an order attached to that, whch, of course, deals wth those parts of the request for remedy that we dealt wth at the prevous sttng. There were three attempts to serve those documents, and, of course, as well, he had the substtutonal servce from the Trbunal. The Notce

12 of Resumpton of Hearng was taped to hs door. 2 must say that t was hghlghted n 3 a way whch would make t very obvous to anyone who 4 removed that document that the hearng was proceedng 5 today n Ottawa. 6 understand the stuaton. s there 7 anythng else that you want to enter or deal wth? 8 MS PHLLPS: No. 9 THE CHARPERSON: We wll move to 0 your submssons, then, on the second part of the, remedy. 2 SUBMSSONS ON BEHALF OF THE CANADAN HUMAN 3 RGHTS COMMSSON MS PHLLPS: As mentoned at our 5 last sttng, the Commsson s seekng a penalty of 6 $0,000 pursuant to secton 54() (c) of the Canadan, 7 Human Rghts Act. 8 n 998, Bll S-5 amended secton 54 9 to nclude the penalty provson. n dong so, t 20 expanded the order-makng power of the Trbunal under 2 secton 54 where a person was found to have engaged n 22 a dscrmnatory practce under secton As was just mentoned, an order n 24 regards to that practce has already been made by ths 25 Trbunal.

13 Ths amendment was made n a drect response to the rsng ncdents of hate crmes around the world. The justce mnster at the tme, Alan Rock, stated: "The government beleves that stronger measures are needed to deter ndvduals and organsatons from establshng hate lnes." At that tme they were dealng wth telephone lnes. "t hopes to accomplsh ths by allowng vctms of such lnes to apply for compensaton and subjectng offenders to fnancal penalty." The frst and only decson awardng the penalty was the Kyburz decson, whch s at tab 7 of the Commssonls book of authortes. The dscusson of penalty begns at page 2 of that decson. Charperson Mactavsh, as she then was, dscussed the nature of the penalty n paragraphs 93 to 95. She states:

14 "The ncluson of ths provson n the 998 amendments to the Act represents a sgnfcant departure from the tradtonal approach that damage awards n human rghts cases were prmarly remedal, and not puntve. To date, no order has been made by the Trbunal under ths provson." n paragraph 94 she says: "n contrast, penaltes leved pursuant to subsecton 54 ()(c) of the Act are ntended to reflect socety's opprobrum for the respondent ' s conduct., Then there s a dscusson of the factors that are to be consdered when awardng a penalty. n that case, Mr. Kyburz also chose not to partcpate n the Trbunal's hearng, and Charperson Mactavsh awarded a $7,500 penalty aganst hm. The frst factor that must be consdered by the Trbunal s the nature,

15 crcumstances, extent and gravty of the dscrmnatory practce. n ths case, the Respondent, Eldon Warman, used the nternet to spread hatred and contempt toward Jewsh people. n usng ths medum, he was not only able to reach a natonal audence, but an nternatonal audence. Ths means that Jews throughout Canada and the world may be exposed to ths materal, whch was, at tmes, vcous and vle n nature. n the Taylor decson, whch s at tab 2 of the Commsson~s book of authortes, the Supreme Court of Canada also dscussed the nfluence that ths type of materal mght haveon people other than the targeted groups. At page 24, paragraph 78, Justce Dckson was actually quotng the Trbunal decson -- there s a long quote n paragraph and there was dscusson of the attractons and advantages of telephone communcaton to racsts and whte supremacsts n terms of connectng wth and attemptng to nfluence those n the communty who are for one reason or another bewldered or dsaffected by events and forces over whch they feel they have no control. The Trbunal n that, case also

16 dscussed how the authors of hate messages are able, through subtle manpulaton and juxtaposton of materal, to gve a veneer of credblty to the content of the messages. "The combnaton of the telephonc medlum and the materal s, we beleve, partcularly nsdous, because, whle a publc means of communcaton s used, t s one whch gves the lstener the mpresson of drect, personal, almost prvate, contact by the speaker, provdes no realstc means of questonng the nformaton or vews presented and s subject to no counter- argument wthn that partcular communcatons context." t s the vew of the Commsson that ths analyss also apples to nternet communcatons, and perhaps even more so, because of the legtmacy of the wrtten word and the repeated messagng. The second factor s wlfulness or ntent and pror dscrmnatory practces.

17 Eldon Warman, despte beng challenged on numerous occasons by other contrbutors to the news groups, ncludng personspontng out the offensve nature of hs postngs, contnued, and, n fact, hs postngs became even more vcous and hateful. We saw, for example, the escalaton aganst "Joe the Jew Boy" n the mateals. The Respondent was also aware that hs assocate, Fred Kyburz, had hs nternet ste shut down as a result of the materal that contaned and made menton of ths n hs postngs. The thrd and fnal factor s Mr. Eldon Warmans ablty to pay. n the Kyburz decson, agan at tab 7, page 22, there was a dscusson about who has the onus to adduce evdence about ablty to pay, and the Trbunal found that the onus s on thb Respondent to adduce that evdence. Eldon Warman has adduced no evdence regardng hs fnancal crcumstances. THE CHARPERSON: You mean that the onus s on the Respondent or the Complanant? Respondent. MS PHLLPS: t s on the

18 That s at paragrapl 00, the last sentence : "That sad, we are of the vew that the Court's comments regardng the burden of proof relatng to thd ablty to pay are equally apqlcable to our delberatons under ths provson of the Canadan Human Rghts Act." They are referrng to the R. v. Noseworthy decson, whch was a crmnal case, whch s n the paragraph above -- THE CHARPERSON: read ths as suggestng t s the Respondent's oblgaton to -- MS PHLLPS: That's correct. heard you correctly. 'm sorry. THE CHARPERSON: may not have Bascally, your poston s that t s for Mr. Warman, f he has dffculty to pay, to come before the Trbunal and advse me of &hat. MS PHLLPS: That's/ correct. THE CHARPERSON: And they dd gve some weght to that? Madam ~actavsh'n ths case? MS PHLLPS: Yes, she dd. n

19 385 paragraph 00 she dscusses the fact that the 2 Noseworthy decson was a crmnal decson, but she 3 found that ths partcular prncple kppled wthn the 4 Trbunal context. 5 THE CHARPERSON: She says: "...we do not feel that we can attrbute t much weght, although we have consdered t." Were there references n the materal to Mr. Warmans fnancal abltes? am tryng to rernettber. MS PHLLPS: The ohy comment he made was n an e-mal to Mary Dufford, whch was actually Rchard Warman, n whch he sad " have no assets that they can fnd." THE CHARPERSON: ~d you know where that s, by chance? 7 MS PHLLPS: At tab C --, 8 THE CHARPERSON: Yes, remember the 9 e-mal now. He sad n the e-mal -- am wrong n 20 suggestng that he was almost boastful? 2 MS PHLLPS: That's rght. 22 THE CHARPERSON: That was the tone 23 of t MS PHLLPS: He says: '' don't have any assets they

20 can fnd, so they can do whatever they {sh. My webste s on a server n Panama, so. Canada de fact? guv cannot do too much about that. He s not sayng " have no assetsu; he s sayng that the Canadan government can't fnd them. THE CHARPERSON: don't know that t really addresses, n any event, the ablty to pay. don't know f t was the same n the Kyburz case. Really, t s your poston that don't have credble evdence or nformaton before me that would rase the ssue. sn't that your poston? MS PHLLPS: That s correct. THE CHARPERSON: Perhaps you are gong to go to t, but notce that she also states that t was a frst offence., states that? MS PHLLPS: charperson Mactavsh THE CHARPERSON: Yes. MS PHLLPS: She dd see that as a mtgatng factor; however, the ~ommdson would argue that Mr. Eldon Warman was aware of the order aganst Fred Kyburz. He was aware that there was an order for

21 hm to take down the ste, and t s referenced n the evdence. So am not sure f we can vew t n the same way that the Trbunal analyzed Mr. Kyburz's conduct, because Mr. Eldon Warman was made aware through Mr. Kyburz ' s decson that ths secton of the Act exsted, that a cease and desst brder had been made, and the ramfcatons of that, essentally. THE CHARPERSON: was gong to ask you about the maxmum. From takng a very quck look at that decson, gather that was the essental reason why they ddn't levy the maxmum $0,000 penalty. s that your readn4 of the case? MS PHLLPS: That js the only porton where beleve they say thatt s a mtgatng factor. beleve that ~harberson Mactavsh also referenced the materal that Mr. ~yburz had posted, whch sad that he had no assets. She took / 20 that as unsworn evdence and weghtedt accordngly. 2 THE CHARPERSON: Rght. see she 22 says that they consdered t, but ddn't gve t much 23 weght. 24 Bascally, t sounds as f the 25 sgnfcant factor was the frst offence.

22 They were n the same poston, 2 gather. The respondent wasn't there. 3 MS PHLLPS: That's correct. l 4 THE CHARPERSON: WAS the materal n 5 that case smlar? Would you compare the two? 6 MS PHLLPS: thnk, n nature, 7 yes, t was. t was ant-semtc. thnk the 8 dfference was, maybe, venue. Mr. Kyburz ran a webste 9 called "patrotsonguard". Mr. Eldon Warman posted n a 0 varety of dfferent fora. But the materal tself was. hateful n nature, and mostly, beleve, drected 2 toward people of the Jewsh fath., 3 THE CHARPERSON: ~dat s your l4 poston wth respect to -- you seem to be suggestng 5 that t s almost automatc, that should -- l6 Do you want to make further, 7 submssons? 8 have two questons for you. 9 MS PHLLPS: That s fne. 20 THE CHARPERSON: One queston has to 2 do wth the maxmum. f there s a maxmum, assume 22 t s there for the very worst knd o case, and 23 suppose you could magne a worse case. 24 There s some proportonalty bult 25 nto the system.

23 389 ' You seem to be suggestng that 2 should start wth the maxmum. 3 What s your poston? 4 MS PHLLPS: What q am suggestng 5 s, n lookng at the three factors that need to be 6 assessed under the Act, my poston s that there s no 7 evdence at ths pont, as the Respon$ent has chosen 8 not to partcpate, to mtgate and blng down the 9 penalty from the maxmum. 0 thnk, as we go through all of those factors -- the nature, crcumstances, extent and 2 gravty, wlfulness, ntent, et cetera -- pror, 3 dscrmnatory practces, f that s somethng that the 4 Trbunal s consderng -- thnk the evdence clearly 5 states that there was repeated -- ths s not one 6 postng that may expose people to hate, there were 7 numerous, repeated postngs that got progressvely more 8 vcous and vle n nature. 9 THE CHARPERSON:!thnk would 20 agree wth you. don't see much n terms of 2 mtgaton. 22 stll would thnk that one has to 23 somehow -- everythng s on a scale, so there could be, 24 as say, cases whch are less or more offensve. 25 do have some concerns about -- f

24 t s a matter of awardng the maxmum and somehow, n awardng the maxmum, fndng that ths s the worst possble case -- t s not the worstcase could contemplate. could contemplate, q,u=te frankly, worse cases. That s obvously not approvbg of anythng, t s just that, f there s some scale that apples here -- 'm sorry to say t, but could magne cases where the materal s yet more offensve. wonder about that. dd want to ask you the second queston, whch tes n to ths. t has to do wth the exercse that you have just gone through n tryng to serve hm wth some knd of notce that you are seekng the penalty. Should take nto account the fact that Mr. Warman has refused to partcpate n the process?. don't even know f, that s the rght way to say t. He certanly sekms to have -- there s some refusal to accept the legtmacy of ths process. would be very nte~ested n the Commsson's vew as to whether that 4s a relevant consderaton. : 25 MS PHLLPS: thnk, absolutely, t

25 s. thnk that, through the materals, Eldon Warman has demonstrated a lack of respect for the laws and rules and conventons -- and many othkr thngs -- of Canada. He has chosen, n the tax fokum, to not pay taxes, and he counsels people on how Lo not pay taxes. a He has been served personally wth notce of these proceedngs and has chosen not to attend.! THE CHARPERSON: 'thnk have to work on the assumpton, at ths pont, that he has been advsed of the process on repeated occasons, and have to work on the assumpton -- shouldn't say assumpton. don't know what the rght word s, but.thnk have to proceed on the bass that he knows about the process l and s delberately evadng servce a*d refusng to partcpate. Am rght n ths <ew? MS PHLLPS: Yes, absolutely. There was dscusson n the House of Commons and there was dscusson n the Kyburz decson about the nature of the penalty sectqn, why t was mplemented, and, clearly, t was meant to send a message to the respondent n that case, and t was also meant to send a message to other resp{ndents that ths

26 conduct wll not be tolerated., But thnk that, n ths partcular case, evason of servce, falure to partcpate, falure to recognze the jursdcton of the Trbunal -- offensve n that. THE CHARPERSON: There s somethng MS PHLLPS: Absolutely; not just ths Trbunal, but any court and any law n Canada. thnk there s somethng offensve nsomeone choosng to gnore t and make a mockery of t en THE CHARPERSON: the comments that you refer to, those knds of comhents would feed nto ths. There s an atttude. The atttude that the Respondent has dsplayed to the p&ocess s -- t s more than regrettable, t s offensve n tself. t seems to me that that s the knd of consderaton -- f you just take the facts of ths case, and f you just look at the e-mals, don't thnk you are talkng about the maxmam. But, as you know, have myself, as the member n ths case, gone out of my way to see that Mr. Warman s aware of the process and apprecates that ths complant s beng heard, and th&e s some very obstnate refusal to accept the authorty of the

27 process and the Trbunal, and somehow, when you add t all up, can't help but wonder f that exacerbates the stuaton and f that sn't somethngl should consder. need to thnk about the stuaton, but t s your poston that that s somethng that somehow aggravates -- that s an aggravatng crcumstance and that would justfy the mposton of a hgher penalty. MS PHLLPS: Yes, and thnk, n readng the three factors, as mentoned, the House of Commons dscusson and Charperson Mactavsh's comments n Kyburz -- thnk, when you put all of that together, that s n lne wth the purpose of ths 5 secton. 6 THE CHARPERSON: Perhaps should 7 say on the record, too, that consder t regrettable 8 that Mr. Warman wasn' t here and ddn' 6 partcpate. 9 The Trbunal would have been happy to have accommodated 20 hm, n terms of venue or any other adpect of the *, 2 process. Of course, the Human Rghts process 23 s educatonal. That s part of what ls supposed to be 24 gong on. But we are n a very dffcult

28 poston, where a respondent refuses to partcpate. apprecate your comments. understand your poston. wll havb to consder the stuaton. Do you want to add 4nythng? MS PHLLPS: jusd have the concludng paragraph of my submssonl. The evdence demonsdrates that Eldon Warman authored and repeatedly postedmessages on the nternet whch are lkely to expose pbople of the Jewsh fath, natonal or ethnc orgkn to hatred or contempt. Hs repeated messagd s that Jewsh people have no redeemng qualtes. There s a pattern of snglng out Jews and ascrbng extremely negatve characterstcs to them as a group an& as ndvduals. He denes or dmnshes the ~olocaust! one of the sngle bggest atroctes n hstory.' The Respondent s actons are a clear volaton of not only secton 3 of the Canadan Human Rghts Act, but of the very sprt ofthe legslaton. t s, therefore, an approprate case to award a penalty. am hopeful that the Trbunal wll reach the same concluson and send a clear message to

29 the Respondent and to others postng hateful and contemptuous messages that t s not only unacceptable, but contrary to human rghts law and, therefore, wll not be tolerated. THE CHARPERSON: Thank you. Mr. Warman? SUBMSSONS BY MR. RCHARD WARMAN MR. WARMAN: have ;very bref submssons. n the man, am content to adopt the submssons of Ms Phllps for the ~~(nmsson. The only thngs tha$ would menton n specfc response to ssues rased' by yourself would be n terms of the nature, crcumstanaes, extent and gravty of the dscrmnatory practce. don't ntend to revst the lstng that Ms hll ps went through at the end of the prevous hearng, but would pont out three or four specfc thngs. THE CHARPERSON: ce!rtanly. MR. WARMAN: The frst s that Mr. Warman suggests that Jews were n fact responsble for the Holocaust. That s at tab 42, page 2. beleve The next s that ~ r Warman. suggests that Jews are mass murderers, evl cr~mnals, robbers, jackboot thugs, extortonsts, lars, genocdalsts, et

30 ~ cetera. That s found at -- THE CHARPERSON: ~ d e frst reference -- thnk can say that there was a strange nverson there. The materal suggests that somehow the Thrd Rech was -- n some sense there were Jewsh ndvduals behnd the Thrd Rech. MR. WARMAN: Yes. THE CHARPERSON: that rght? tryng to recollect. MR. WARMAN: Yes., THE CHARPERSON: That s where the reference to murderers and jackboots and all of the rest of t comes n. MR. WARMAN: No, sodry. That s the frst one, whch was at tab -- THE CHARPERSON: No,, am sayng n terms of understandng the second comment. thnk that s what s gong on, wth all respect to Mr. Warman -- the other Mr. Warman -- n hs mnd. thnk that s why he s makng those knds?f statements. That's what was thng to -- MR. WARMAN: Yes. THE CHARPERSON: Le:tls be specfc about that. Perhaps there s somethag partcularly offensve or appallng n that knd 04 nverson. You

31 take a persecuted group and you somehow nvert what happened hstorcally, and they become the persecutors. s there somethng dartcularly offensve n that? MR. WARMAN: beldve there s. thnk f you look at the effect that ths would be lkely to have, and that Mr. Eldon warman would know that t would be lkely to have upon the Jewsh communty, and upon everyone of good wll wthn the communty -- ~ THE CHARPERSON: thnk can say -- and have a publc poston -t thnk can say that t s hard to magne somethjng more offensve to a Jewsh person. MR. WARMAN: ndeed.! He suggests that ~ eqs were n fact responsble for slavery. That s at lab 38, HR-45, page 5. And the last specfc example that would pont out would be HR-44, whch s tab 37, page. Mr. Warman suggests that Jews may~n fact be subject to total extermnaton. reference agan, please? THE CHARPERSON: Could have that MR. WARMAN: t s HR-44, whch s

32 tab 37, page of 2. THE CHARPERSON: ~ d you n gve me the full ref,erence, please? MR. WARMAN: Yes. He states: "My lfe DOES $OT revolve around Jew hatred - t s just very stupd of anyode n North Amerca to not recognze that the people who!are destroyng our countres and puttng mllons of our/ people n grave jeopardy are Z~~NST-NAZ Jews. And, Jews are obvously not the only NAZ-ZON~TS n ths grand scheme of world domnaton and destructon of banknd on Planet Earth. Are all/ Jews n, the category of zohsts? thnk not. But, those other Jews had better damned wkll come out wth whom they choose to sde, or they all wll b& categorzed as 'WORLD TERRORS~S~, and could very well be subject to total extermnaton -! a f and when

33 399 people wake up!to what s REALLY 2 gong on. " 3 t goes beyond smpje statements of 4 hatred. t goes nto the realm of meaacng, and t 5 goes nto the realm of threatenng. 6 When you look at tha hstorcal 7 record of the Holocaust havng exste n World War. 8 and then you look at someone who s repeatng smlar 9 threats that they could, n fact, be subject to total 8 0 extermnaton, thnk that s an agglavatng factor. f anythng, that, agan, tlts the skale toward the 2 worst under the spectrum. 3 As sad, Ms Phllps dd a very 4 thorough job of catalogung many of tbe other comments 5 that Mr. Eldon Warman had to make n $er closng durng! 6 the last sesson. The only other thng would menton 7 s, wth regard to the ablty to pay, n the Kyburz 8 decson, whch s at tab 7, would pont out 9 paragraph 99, n whch the Trbunal n Kyburz revews 20 the Noseworthy case andndcates: 2 "The presumptoh of nnocence, 22 however, ends whth the 23 concluson by the tral court 24 that the accusep person s 25 gulty of the okfence as

34 charged. From /then on, any poston that reled upon s pleaded or wth on the bass of the that the party pleadng or relyng upon a leadng the evddence necessary to establsh d. " That, n fact, was +upport for the Trbunal members poston n the ~~b+rz case that there was no evdence before them; an#, n ths case, specfc factual crcumstance has the burden of as well, smlarly, Mr. Eldon Warman bas submtted no evdence n that regard. THE CHARPERSON: He has made t very dffcult for the Trbunal and for hkself, because you are suggestng that the party wth the oblgaton to brng forward any mtgatng factors :s Mr. Warman hmself, and he, of course, refuses to appear. thnk could say that he refuses to partcpate n the process. and apprecate them. notce that n Kyburz: All rght. have your submssons, have a queston fdr the partes.

35 40 "Payment of the penalty shall be 2 made by certfed cheque or, 3 money order, payable to the 4 'Recever General for Canada, 5 and must be receved by the l 6 Trbunal wthn 35 days of Mr. 7 Kyburz beng notfed of ths 8 decson." a ' 9 s that how ths should work? 0 Probably Ms Mallet knows better than j anyone. 2 MS PHLLPS: We had ths dscusson ' 3 n Oakvlle wth Member Hadjs, as well, and we dd a 4 bt of research on t. t s under the Fnancal 5 Admnstraton Act where t dctates that penaltes are 6 payable to the Recever General., 7 THE CHARPERSON: ~ s a bt 8 unusual -- had contemplated even askng you about 9 what would happen once the order was bven, but / 20 assume -- the general rule under the Act -- and am 2 not lookng at t rght now -- s thal orders are fled 22 wth the Federal Court. So t seems a bt strange would have thought that t would be the Federal court 24 that would have the authorty and the oblgaton to ;. 25 enforce the order, once t s fled wth the Federal!

36 - Court. 2 MS PHLLPS: f thd penalty s not 3 pad, then the order would be regsteked for the 4 purpose of enforcement. 5 THE CHARPERSON: Y$u have revewed 6 the stuaton and the Commsson s satsfed that that s the approprate way of handlng t? 8 MS PHLLPS: Yes. THE CHARPERSON: haven't really had to deal wth ths before, but that s the nature of the wordng that you want, payable to the Recever 2 General, but t should be sent to the Trbunal. l3 MS PHLLPS: Yes. 4 THE CHARPERSON: Do'we notfy you at 5 some pont f we don't receve t? S that how ths 6 - works? We smply nform you, perhapsby j 7 correspondence, that we haven't receved a cheque or a 8 money order, and then we leave t wth you, and that s 9 when the enforcement procedure takes ;lace? 20 MS PHLLPS: The order n Kyburz 2 gave Mr. Kyburz 35 days wthn beng notfed of the 22 decson. THE CHARPERSON: That s a problem, too, of course. 25 MS PHLLPS: That s a problem.

37 ! 403 THE CHARPERSON: How would you lke 2 me to deal wth that? 3 MS PHLLPS: would ask for a 4 substtutonal servce order to serve hm wth notce. 5 THE CHARPERSON: n the manner that 6 the Notce of Resumpton of Hearng was served? 7 MS PHLLPS: Yes: 8 THE CHARPERSON:,thnk would be 9 uncomfortable f t wasn't, at least, left at the 0 resdence, n ths crcumstance. How many days should we be talkng about? 3 MS PHLLPS: n ths case t was 35! l4 days. l5 THE CHARPERSON: see that, but s ; 6 that an approprate tme? 7 MS PHLLPS: beleve so. ' 8 THE CHARPERSON: t: s very hard, 9 wthout Mr. Warman beng here. 20 What would you request days, 2 the same as the Kyburz case? 22 MS PHLLPS: thnk that s 23 reasonable notce. 24 THE CHARPERSON: He can always ask 25 for more.

38 MS PHLLPS: That's rght. THE CHARPERSON: 4 s probably ether 30 days or three months. wll decde. wll 4 consder t. do lke to accommodate people as much 5 as possble, but understand how youwant me to 6 proceed. 7 s there anythng else to say on 8 that? MS PHLLPS: No, not on that ssue. THE CHARPERSON: Mr. Warman, s there anythng you want to say on that? MR. WARMAN: NO, th&k you. THE CHARPERSON:!thnk that s 4 what we had to deal wth today, unless there s somethng else -- l5 MS PHLLPS: The only thng wanted 7. to menton was that you had asked about the nverson 8 of Jewsh people beng the aggressors -- 9 THE CHARPERSON: Yes. L MS PHLLPS: Just for your nformaton, n the Zundel decson, whch s at tab 3, 2 22 there was some dscusson of that. There was an 23 expert, Dr. Prdeaux, who was qualfed as an expert n ; 24 the feld of dscourse analyss, and $e talked about j 25 the nverson strateges "where those wdely understood)

39 405 as the vctms n Naz Germany become! the aggressors, 2 and the aggressors become the vctms." 3 There s a lttle bt of dscusson 4 n the Zundel decson whch mght be of nterest to 5 you. j 6 THE CHARPERSON: yes, thnk that 7 would be of nterest. Can you gve mb the paragraph?! 8 MS PHLLPS: t s paragraph 27, 9 and t s at page THE CHARPERSON: What was wonderng n terms of the maxmum s, do thnk that 2 one has to have a scale, and you need to look for 3 aggravatng factors, and ths does strke me as l4 somethng whch mght make these communcatons even 5 more offensve than they mght ntally appear to be. / 6 There seems to be somethng fundamentally offensve n reversng the herarchy of oppresson, or whatever the l7 l8 approprate term would be. 9 wll consder that,, and wll look 20 at Zundel. apprecate that reference. 2 Unless there s somethng further, we ' 22 wll leave t at that. apprecate your partcpaton 23 today. Thank you Whereupon the hearng concluded at 2:30 p.m. ' 25

40 HEREBY CERTFY, to the best of my skll and ablty, that the foregong s a true and accurate transcrpt of the proceedngs Susan B. vllenhve Verbatm Court heporter