989 James Robert Todd

Transcription

1 xv. 989 James Robert Todd Bographcal Sumnnary (1324) Todd was born on December 10, 1919, n Groesbeck, Tex. (2165) He held a varety of occupatons. He worked approxmately 2 years at Sue's Used Car Lot n Dallas as a salesman. (2166) Durng World War he was employed by North Amercan Avaton. (2167) n 1978, he was presdent of Todd Ol Co. and J. R. Todd Ol and nvestment Co. (2168) He was resdng n Dallas, Tex. llegal actvtes (1325) Todd had an extensve arrest record, but nothng snce (2160) He, had been arrested and convcted for a varety of offenses ncludng burglary, transportng explosves, and murder. (2170) (1326) t has been alleged that Todd was a well-known Dallas safecracker(2171) and known thef and assocate of Dallas bookmakers.(2172) n hs deposton, Todd dd admt knowng two Dallas bookmakers. John El Stone and Albert Meadows. (2173) He has also been assocated wth Dallas crmnal fgures such as Los Green, Jette Bass. Nck Casco and R. D. Matthews. (2174) (1337) Todd told the commttee that delos Green was a "personal fend" whom le. had known snce approxmately (2175) When asked about the delos Green bang, Todd stated that "gang" was not the proper word to descrbe Green and hs assocates. (2176) Todd descrbed them as "just a bunch of fellows that were frends." (2177) Later n hs deposton, when questoned by hs attorney, Todd ndcated he was not aware of any assocaton or organzaton known as the delos Green gang. (2178) _lssocato-n Wth C),ganzed Crme (1328) Todd admtted n hs deposton to the commttee that he was casually acquanted wth Sam and Joe Canps. Joseph C vello and Joe ann. alleged organzed crme members n Dallas.(2_79) He. also stated that he only knew flee Campss and the ann famly through ther restaurant busnesses. (2180) T eatnzertt by the Ta- era Con?,msson (1329) After the notaton "Jack. DA8-2635" was dscovered n Jack Ruby's automoble, the FB conducted a bref ntervew of Todd. (2181) A few mscellaneous references to Todd have been found n other FB reports n Jack Ruby's FB fle. (1330) Todd dd not testfy before the Warren Commsson, and he was not ntervewed by ts staff. Relatonshp TF"th Ruby (1331) When Todd was ntervewed by the FB, he stated he was frst ntroduced to Ruby n the Vegas Club 10 or 12 years earler. (2182) He explaned that the Vegas Club was next door to the B R B Restaurant whch he vsted frequently. (2183) Todd stated he had only been n the Vegas Club two or three tmes and had vsted the Carousel Club one or two tmes. (2184) (1332) Todd had often seen Ruby n the Band B Restaurant. (2185) Descrbng hs relatonshp to Ruby as "very lmted," Todd stated "he has never had any socal connectons wth Ruby and he has no

2 990 dea of Ruby's actvtes, who hs assocates arẹ, or any of hs busness dealngs."(2186) He could not recall when he had last seen Ruby. (?817) He dd admt, however, that the phone number found n Ruby's car. DA , was hs home telephone number. (2188) (1333) Two FB reports also lnked Ruby to Todd. An FB report descrbng an ncdent n 1953 when Ruby was n the ACVA offces argung wth Vncent Lee, the AGVA representatve, states that Lee sad Ruby, Joe Bonds and Todd, "together wth other hoodlums and safecrackers," usually "hung around" Sue's Used Car Lot, 3400 Lve Oak, Dallas, Tex. (2189) FB Agent Charles Flynn, after a contact wth Ruby on March 11, 1959, lsted Todd as an assocate of Ruby. (2190) (1334) When Todd was deposed by the commttee, he could not recall beng ntervewed by the FB, even after beng read the FB report of the ntervew. (2191) He stated, "To my knowledge, ths s the frst tme have ever been asked anythng about t... don't recall anybody ever askng me about Jack Ruby." (21,92) Todd also clamed hs phone number was not DA , but was DA (2193) Later, however, Todd stated he had no dea why hs phone number appeared n Jack's car, and he could not recall Ruby ever callng hm. (2191) (1335) When asked when he frst met Ruby, Todd stated t was when Ruby operated the Slver Spur. (2194) Todd sad that "n all probablty" he knew Ruby n 1946 and (2196) (1336) Todd was also questoned about Sue's Used Car.ot. He nformed the commttee that he had been employed as a salesman at the car lot for approxmately 2 years. (2197) He ndcated that as far as he knew, Sue's Used Car Lot was nothng more than a used-car lot. (2198) He dd not recall seeng Ruby there. (2199) (1337) When asked to descrbe hs relatonshp to Ruby, Todd stated To straghten the record out, never sad that knew Ruby other than just by " f he walked down the street, would recognze hm or Jack Ruby, f he walked n that door, would recognze hm as Jack Ruby, anu that's t. (2!00) (1338) Later, when questoned by hs attorney -, Todd stated that le was never a guest at Ruby's home or Ruby a guest at hs home. (2201) He had no busness assocaton wth ruby and dd not kn-av of any of Ruby's actvtes other than that of beng a club nanager.(32u2) (1339) Todd dd have sone common assocates wth Rubv-he a ;lmtted knowng James Dolan, R. D. Matthews, and ~Lews J. McWlle. (2203) (;1340) Deposton before the House Select Commttee on Assassnatons.

3 99 1 UNTED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATVES HOUSE SELECT COMMTTEE ON ASSASSNATONS Federal Buldng 1100 Commerce Street Room 4B40 Dallas, Texas 8!' Tuesday, July 11, :45 a.m. 9 10!! 11 ' ; APPEARANCES : 12? JAMES E. McDONALD, Senor Counsel Select Commttee on Assassnatons 13 Washngton, D.C ! 14 JERRY W. BESEL 161 North Exchange Park 15! Dallas, Texas! ALBERT MAXWELL, Commttee nvestgator Select Commttee on Assassnatons 17 Washngton, D.C u 19! < = 24 Oath Admnstered by BOBBE GASKLL, Courtroom Deputy for U.S. Dstrct Judge W_M. Taylor, Jr. SWORN TESTMONY OF J.R. TODD 2: l

4 992 P R O C E E D N G S whereupon, J. R. TODD a {was duly sworn and testfed as follows : 5 MR. McDONALD : Good mornng. :ay name s James McDonald. MR. BESEL : Mr. M--Donald, am Jerr. - Besel. On the record, would lke to say that :.t s now--- MR. McDONALD : Excuse me, Mr. R :esel, just let me get through some prelmnares. MR. BESEL : Okay. Then want to put als ths on the record. MR. McDONALD : All rght. My name s l James McDonald. We are present n the Federal Courthouse n Dallas, Texas, to take the Deposton of James Robe ".t Todd. Present ths mornng are Mr. Todd and hs attorneyf Jerry Besel. have been desgnated pursuant to House P,~soluto :. 10 2' ~ 222 and Commttee Rule Four as a desgnated cocnsel and power to take statements under oath, and the wtness has been prevously sworn by Bobbe C~askll, the Courtroom Deputy for U.S. Dstrct Court Judge Wllam nglar, Jr. MR. BESEL : thnk you have get that wrong, there s no such judge. Wllam Taylor.

5 993 1 ~ Ft. MCDONALD : Taylor. 2 MR. BESEL : Wllam Taylor, Jr. 3 ;j MR. MCDONALD : Thank you. MR. BESEL : am Jerry Besel. am Mr. 9 Todd's attorney, and would lke the record to reflect l that t s now 11 :40, mean., 10 :48, that ths Deposton was set at approxmately 9 :30, and at approxmately twent 8,~ mnutes to ten, Mr. Todd appeared on the scene wth hs attorney, and that we have spent the better part of the 10 last hour and ten mnutes attemptng to get Mr. Todd 11 sworn Mr. Todd and myself, along wth the Court Reporter, went to the Federal Court's own ffteen, tryng to fnd a Court Reporter, none were avalable, and then we went to the U.S. Magstrate, Judge Malloy, to hs offce, to ask hm to swear ths wtness. Judge Malloy -- We talked to the clerk for Judge Malloy, who then went nto Judge Malloy's offce and several mnutes later, Judge Malloy came to the clerk's desk and told us that he would refuse to swear the wtness or any subsequent wtnesses, and that they had decded wthout sayng who they are that they would not get nvolved n ths stuaton. MR. McDONALD : Mr. Besel, we apprecate your comment, and ths commttee regrets the atttude demonstrated by the U.S. Magstrates here n ths Dstr t,

6 and we regret the nconvenence to you and your clent as well as to ths Court Reporter and myself, because we also have thngs to do. And we don't lke runnng aroundl courthouses to get wtnesses sworn. And we wsh the Magstrate n ths Dstrct would show a lttle more j courtesy to the Congress of the Unted States. And t's a stuaton that we regret as much as you do. 8 EXAMNATON BY MR. McDONALD : Q Mr. Todd, would you please state for the record your full name? A J. R. Todd. 13 Q And your current address? A 6116 North Central Expressway, Dallas, Texas. And s that your home or busness? That's my busness. Okay. Would you please gve us your home address? A don't care about gvng my home address. Q 'm sorry. A Why do have to gve my home address? Q Just for the complete record. A The 6116 wll reach me anytme. Q All rght. And what s the name of the busness that you occupy at that address? A Todd Ol Company.

7 995 Q Okay. And the phone number there s? 2 A !Q Area code 214? A Correct. Mr. Todd, the statement that you are about to gve to us ths mornng s beng gven to us voluntarly ; s that correct? A As far as am concerned t s voluntary, yeah. Q n other words, you're not under subpoena at ths tme? 10 ", A That's correct.. 11 Q Okay. As you know, you do have the rght to have your, 12 ~ attorney present, whch he s sttng to your rght? 13 A Correct Q And you and your counsel have been gven a copy of 15 Commttee Rules and House Resoluton.222, 433 and 760,!~ 16 and you have both had a chance to peruse them ; s that 17 correct? 18 A We looked at Rule Four, but don't know about ~ Q Q Well, ths s the blue packet that passed out. And drected your attenton to Rule Four ; A Correct. 23 ago? s that correct? And whch your counsel read aloud to you a few mnutes Correct. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Todd, as you note, the entre

8 996 1 j Deposton s beng recorded, and when we have a transcr t 2 we wll forward a copy to you and -- Well, to you and 3 ~ your attorney to check t for typographcal and grammatcal 4 " errors. 5 A All rght. Q That wll be done n the near future. Okay. Mr. Todd, what s the nature of your busnessa Todd Ol Company? drll wells and operate wells. p! Q Uh-huh. And how many employees do you have? u 11 j A. only have one employee. 12 Q Okay. s t also known as Todd nvestment Company? 13 A J.R. Todd Ol and nvestment Company, s another separate 14 entty A ! A Contract everythng out. ~ Q see. Okay. And how long have you had ths busness? Q Okay. And would you please descrbe that for us? Q 19 A A Snce back n the 40's. Q Well, drll wells and operate wells under that name. Okay. company? Just one. And how many employees do you have under that l Q Okay. Do you contract out? And has t been at the same address? A No, at one tme was at 1022 Natonal Bankers Lfe

9 997 Buldng. Here n Dallas? 3 l A Yes, sr. 4 Okay. Do you have any partners n ths -- Do you have partners n these busnesses? 6 ~~ A 7 Q 8 A Q A No, sr. You are the sole propretor? My chldren and myself are, yes. And who are your chldren? What does that got to do wth ths? t ' Q Well, we're tryng to get just a background and dentfyng nformaton just for our complete understand-', ng of--- My ol company doesn't have anythng to do wth what we are talkng about. Well, t would just be helpful for us to know--- MR. BESEL : Counsel, thnk ths goes outsde the purvew of ths nvestgaton, and Mr. Todd doesn't feel lke, you know, gettng -to hs prvate lfe. He's volunteered to gve any nformaton he mght have that would be relevant to ths nvestgaton, but as to hs prvate lfe he doesn't feel lke any l 23, nvestaton gpe of hs rvatlfwarrant e s e. MR. McDONALD : All rght. Well, we are not nvestgatng hs prvate lfe, but wll respect

10 998 hs wshes at ths pont. (Mr. McDonald) Your answer then to the queston was that! your chldren occupy some place of responsblty n your, company, ether partners or--- Ownershp. Ownershp. Okay. And just a couple of more personal questons, f mght. What's four date of brth? December the tenth. Yes, what year? Okay. And where were you born?, E ' A Yes. Groesbeck, Texas. And you are presently marred? And what s your wfe's name? Ann. Ann. Dkay. Mr. Todd, as you know, you have voluntarly come here ths mornng to assst ths commttee n ts 9 nvestgaton of the assassnaton of John F. Kennedy. And n that regard, we are gong to be askng you some queston_ that pertan Jack Rubv_. to an ndvdual by the name of j One further dentfyng bt of nformaton. Are you! the same Jack Todd, James Robert Todd, that was ntervewed by the F.B.. n 1963 shortly after the assassnaton of

11 1 999 John F. No, sr. Kennedy? 3 14 You are not the same one? A No, sr. Were you ever ntervewed by the F.B.. after the assassnaton? Not to my knowledge. Not to your knowledge or not -- Dd you ever lve at ; j 2438 Oats Drve? ' 10 j A sure dd. Okay. And you don't recall beng ntervewed? No, sr. How good s your memory? Farly good. All rght. You don't recall beng ntervewed on b 1? A l Q A! 4 A approxmately December sxteenth, 1963, by Agent Tom E. Chapoton, C-H-A-P-O-T-O-N? n regards to what? n regards to Jack Ruby and the assassnaton of John F. Kennedy? don't remember, no. wll say ths, we have a record that you were ntervewed on that day. have--- You don't recall?!

12 1000 No, sr. Okay. MR. BESEL : Now, as Mr. Toc's attorney, f you have a copy of that record nere, 1 would 1-ke to see t n order to have my cl'.ent refresh?- s memory, because that's ffteen years ago, you know. MR. McDONALD : understand. am not at lberty to gve you a copy of t because t's part of the under documents that are not subject to dsclos-re pursuant to the Freedom of nformaton Acs_. t's ;tll under an excepton n the Natonal Ar-hves, :-ut a-cordng to the document 'hat am readng, t's an F.B don't know f you are famlar wth that term, t's an ntervew form of the P.B.. You were ntervewed on December sxteenth, :963, n Dallas, an.; the person ntervewed was James Robert Todd at 2438 Oats Dr~,e, Dallas, regardng a notaton, that was fourd n jack Ruby's car tha` sad, "Jack," and ther. a phone number, "DA8-26)5," whch was your pore m:mber at the tme, that's how they came to you? No, that wasn't my number. 22 P,, Q (Mr. McDonald) Let me just say ths : Ths was the 22 phone number and they at t':at tme, ffteen years ago, 7e traced t to you, and that's how the F.B.. came to 11 ntervew you?

13 1001 Well, f he came to ntervew me, don't remember t. And that telephone number s almost t, but that wasn't the rght number. wk-at- was your number Bt that tme? Davs F As best recall t, t was Davs Okay. Well could have been somethng to Jack, have no dea. Mr. Todd, at t.at tme, ffteen years ago, ths s Lhe number they found and they traced t to you, and you were ntervewed? t don't remember. M.R. McDONALD : You can make a rote also present durng ths Deposton s Commttee nvestgator Albert Maxwell. Mr. Maxwell, we are :n the process of tryng to refresh Mr. Todd's memory. am lockng at an F.B.. 302, you may help us, you have ntervewed Mr. Todd before ; s that correct? MR. MAYWELL : Yes, h-huh. MR. McDONALD : Accordng to the F.B.. ntervew, Mr. Todd was ntervewed back n December of 1963, and he was located because a number was found n Jack Ruby's car wth the notaton, "Jack, DA8-2635," and that's how the F.B.. ultmately ended up talkng to Mr. Todd. You're aware of those facts?

14 1002 MR. MAXWELL : Yes. MR. McDCNALD : Okay. Mr. Todd s havng a problem rememberng t. THE WTNESS : don't---- MR. BESEL : Let me ask you a queston, Counselor, let me nterrupt you. You talk about these facts as f they're, you know, true. t's my understandng, though, that the only thng you have s no personal knowledge, you are lookng at some report that purports to say that these facts are true, so let the record reflect that these statements that these are facts, that's just a supposton on your part, and you keep referrng to these facts, those are just some facts that are reported on an nstrument that you have that someone else quoted. MR. McDONALD : Let me say ths : started' ths whole lne of questonng out merely as an dentfyng bt of nformaton whch Mr. Todd now has forgotten. THE WTNESS : don't recall. (Mr. McDonald) You don't recall ever beng talked to by the F.B.. after the assassnaton of Presdent Kennedy? To my knowledge, ths s the frst tme have ever been asked anythng about t.

15 1003 Have you ever been talked to before, excludng Mr. Maxwel ;, regardng Jack Ruby by any offcal of the Federal Government? don't recall t, no. You don't recall. So, what you are sayng s then after the -- You don't recall, or you were or you weren't, yes or no? don't recall. MR. BESEL : He says he doesn't recall t. Hs memory says that he was not, but, you know, t's ffteen years ago agan, and, you know, t ddn't have any sgnfcance f he was, assume, s that true, Mr. Todd? THE WTNESS : don't recall anybody ever askng me about Jack Ruby. (Mr. McDonald) am just sayng that we deal wth a lot of people nvolved wth ths case--- Yes. 20 ~~ 21 ~; 2 ---and would say that fnd t hard to beleve that you don't remember that wthn two weeks after the assassnaton that an F.B.. Agent -- can beleve you mght not remember the substance, but that an F.B.. 23 q Agent came ether to your busness or home and ntervewe 24 25,~ you regardng Jack Ruby, the Presdent? the assassn of the assassn of

16 1004 MR. BESEL : You see, Counsel, that's because you're assumng that that report s accurate. MR. McDONALD : Yes, am assumng that t accurate. MR. BESEL : Okay. Then let's assume ths wtness s under oath and just testfed that he does not recall that, and does not beleve that occurred,~ and let's assume that--- MR. McDONALD : am assumng he's beng evasve. MR. BESEL : Yes, you are assumng he's beng evasve, and he'_ not beng evasve. He's beng as candd wth you as he cc~, ;d possbly be, because t has no sgnfcance. ;what possble sgnfcance--- MR. McDONALD : That's for us to determne and not -o_ Mr. Todd to determne. _ wanted to just dentl F. ".._m as the same Mr. Todd, and we ha ",,e reason to releve :..at we know that he 1.. _::e same Mr. Todd than was ntervewed by--- MR. BESE= : You de hot know that. MR. McDONPS.D : Yes, we do, Mr. Besel. MR. BESEL : You don't know that at all. You have got a report that you're referrng to there. He =_ Mr. Todd, and he lved on Oats Drve, he wll admt that, but he does not recall a meetng wth an F.B..

17 1005 Agent concernng the Ruby assassnaton of Oswald. 2 MR. McDONALD : Okay. You made your pont. 3 MR. BESEL : Okay. 4! Q (Mr. McDonald) Okay. Mr. Todd, have you ever heard of 5 the Los Green gang? 6 ;! A Yes, sr. 7j! Q Could you gve us -- How do you know about the Los Green 8 ~ gang? : ~ A The termnology, "gang", s just somethng that was 10 dreamed up by a bunch of folks.! 1 1 l Q. Okay. 1 l A Los Green was my personal frend. 13 Q Uh-huh. When dd you frst meet Mr. Green? 14 A About '39. 1' l Q 1939? 16 A Yes. 17,. Q And you're sayng the term, "gang", doesn't ft? 18 A (shakes head) 19 ~ Q How would you descrbe Los Green? Am pronouncng t correct? Rght correct Q And we wll call them assocates or whatever. How would you descrbe the group? A Just a bunch of guys.?4 G Q ;, A bunch of guys? A bunch of guys dong what? 25

18 1006 Just lke us sttng rght here, a bunch of guys. Uh-huh. Who were they? Do you recall any of the people that were members of ths group? You have reference to a gang, but see, no gang... t has never been establshed n my mnd as a gang. There's a bunch of fellows that were frends, and what relaton one of them made to the other, have no knowledge of that. thnk they're called a gang and they're consdered by, would say, law enforcement as a gang, as a group of ndvduals that were operatng ether n or on the frnges of the crmnal element n Dallas n 1939 or whenever durng the years n queston. Do you recall who were part of ths group? What people were nvolved? f you tell me ther names, mght know them, but don't know who they were. Well--- mght know a lot of ndvduals, but whether they were a member of the gang, never dd see ther badge. Dd you know an ndvdual by the name of Benny Bnon, B--N--0-N? know the name, yes, sr. How do you know the name? You can pck up the newspaper and see that, but know hm as a person casually.

19 1007 ~4 2 A 3 4 Uh-huh. When dd you frst meet hm? Probably back n the '40's. And what dd you read about hm n the newspapers? A 5 ~ A Occasonally, you pck up the newspaper and read somethng don't recall what you read. Uh-huh. Well, generally speakng, what knd of news reports were beng wrtten about hm? A j4 p A That he was gong to Vegas. They would prnt that n the newspaper, someone travelln to Vegas? don't recall. You would have to look at the prnt to see what was n there. don't recall what was prnted n ~ A 4 A Q A ~ 4 A So, n other words, he was known as a gambler? Yes. And he was wrtten up n varous newspaper artcles? don't know that to be a fact, but would thnk that would be the assumpton. Okay. Do you know an ndvdual by the name of Joe Camps? know Joe Camps. When dd you frst meet hm? Probably n the '40's. Okay. How about hs brother Sam? knew hs brother,sam.

20 100 8 Okay. And how dd you come to meet them? Ther daddy had a restaurant, and t later turned nto a club, and t was a place where everybody went. j Uh-huh. And what was the nature of your relatonshp wth the Camps's? Just go there and eat. Wth them? Not necessarly. would go n there, you know, lke any, other restaurant. He was the owner, and would go n there and st down and eat. What was the name of the restaurant? don't recall. They had one over on Central years ago, 1? 14 and they had one over on Knox Street, got the one they have got now. and then they have 'S ' Q Whch s the one they have now? 16! A beleve, t's called The Egyptan. 17 ~ Q And do you recall -- And whch street s the Egyptan on? 18 A beleve, t's on mockngbrd. 19 ~ ; Q How about Joe Cvello, Joseph Cvello? 20! A met Joe Cvello, yes, very casually. Q And where? A don't have any dea. When dd you meet hm? Probably n the '40's. And you're sayng that your relatonshp wth hm was

21 1009 casual? ;A Very casual. What do you mean by, "very casual"? Lke met Mr. Maxwell. here, would krzw `:..- agan f saw hm agan. would know he's Mr. Maxwell, that wrul3! be casual. Okay. how about Johnny Grzzaff, G-R--Z-Z-A-F-F-? Yeah, know Johnny. How do you know hm? Very casual. What do you mean by, "very casual"? ~ A '7! C! 14 A 'd know hm f he walked n ths room. Okay. When s the last tme yr, saw hm? Probably ten, twelve, ffteen years ago. s he alve today? have no dea Dd you have any busness relatonshp wth hm? No. Joe ann? Yeah, knew Joe. 1 ~ 1! Q.,y A 22 ': Q -A-N-N-? Yeah, know Joe. ' And what's your relatonshp wth hm? 14 l A 25 Q He had a restaurant and would go n there ana eat. What was the name of hs restaurant?

22 1010 A ann's. sn't he related to you by marrage? 4 Q Pardon? s he related to you by marrage? No, my son s marred to hs daughter. Okay. That's correct. Are these ndvduals that we have just named, are they consdered -- have they been termed n the press and by law enforcement crcles as "Organzed Crme", s the Dallas area? wouldn't have any dea. You have never seen that? When you spoke of readng 14 about Benny Bnon n the newspaper, have you seen t n that context? MR. BESEL : Counsel, thnk that's too 15 vague a queston for my clent to be supposng about how 16 these people have been characterzed by newspaper account - 17 MR. McDONALD : Well, 'm askng f he's 18 aware. 19 mll MR. BESEL : don't thnk that's a proper 20 queston because, you know, he mght read t, he mght 21 gve t some credence, mght be a New York Cty nut, 22 don't thnk that's a proper queston, and wll nstruct) 23 hm not to answer that queston Q (Mr. McDonald) Okay. Mr. Todd, n ths commttee's 25 j l l nqury nto Jack Ruby, and as you know, the reason why

23 l you have been asked to come here ths mornng s because we feel you can help us and gve us some nsght nto Jack Ruby, the person. n part of our overall nvestgaton, not only ths commttee, but other people who have been lookng at the Kennedy assassnaton have looked at Jack. 2 '' Ruby, one of the areas that they have focused on, was 3 what s called or has been termed, "The organzed Crme" 9!~ move nto Dallas n - 47 and '48, n the varous wrtngs o 10 the people that have revewed the Kennedy assassnaton a~d 11!, have wrtten n books that you can buy n a bookstore, l l ths s an area that they talk about, "The Organzed Crme" move nto Dallas, Texas, n '46 and '47. So, we'r hopng that perhaps you can gve us some nformaton n tat area. Namely, do you know a person by the name o Paul Roland Jones? 18 dd at one tme. 19 Okay. When dd you meet hm? ~~ 23!~ 4 l Back n the '40's. Uh-huh. Do you know specfcally when n the '40's? have no dea. Well, would t have been n '46, '47 area? t could have been. am not for sure. 29 Q And what was the nature of your relatonshp wth hm? MR. BESEL : Let me nterrupt you a mnute,

24 1012 Counsel. We are gong back n some ffteen years pror to Kennedy's assassnaton, at the tme Kennedy was a teenager, a long tme pror to Ruby ever beng n Dallas, 4 as far as know. MR. McCONALD : Ruby was n Dallas at that tme n ' MR. BESEL : Well, apprecate t, and want you to ask any questons that you feel s relevant, but f we could te t a lttle closer to Mr. Ruby, you 10 know, want ths ted down to Mr. Ruby. MR. McDONALD : understand. MR. ZESEL : 7hs s gettng far afeld talkng about '46 and '47, because we haven't even ndcated at than tme that Mr. Todd ~as acquanted wth Mr. Ruby. MR.!cDCOALC : apprecate your comments,' and we wll be nyn ; t nto Ruby. Ths s a lackgrcund area that we have :c cover regardng Mr. Ruby. He was present n 2alas, Ruby was, at ths tme, and as 1 tred, to gve you n my preface remarks that ths s the reason! for these questons dealng n a tme span ffteen years pror to the assassnaton. (Mr. McConald) So, dr. Todd, ask you, what was the nature of your relatonshp wth Paul Roland Jones? No relatonshp wth hm at all.

25 ~Q You knew hm? l 2,! A Yeah. 3 % Q How dd you know hm? 4 A Somebody ntroduced me to hm.. 5 Q And how often dd you have an occason to socally or 6 l whatever meet wth hm? 11 7 A t was so vague, wouldn't remember, probably three l 8 tmes or four tmes forever. 9 ~Q Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew Paul Roland Jones? 10 ~; A have no dea. 11 Q Okay. How about an ndvdual by the name of Paul 12 ~j '. 13 o Labrola, also known as -- He had a nckname of Needle Nose, do you know hm? la A Not to my knowledge. 15!~ Q Well, have you ever heard of the person? 16 ~j A thnk he asked me one tme f knew hm, but don`t 17 know hm. s ~ Q You don't? 19 l A wouldn't know hm f he walked n the door.! 20 1 Q You would not? Okay. Danny Lardno? 21 A No, sr. 22 j Q You don't know hm? 23 ~ ; A No, Sr. 24 l Q Have you ever heard of the name? 25 j A No, sr.

26 1014 Marcus Lpsky? No. L--P-S-K-Y. James Wenberg? t :o. You're payng no, you never heard of them? You do not -.ow them or you have never heard of.hem?? ~:ave never heard of them :+ever heard of them, whch means you don't know them? That's rght. Okay. Pat Mannng or Pat Manno, M-A-N-N-O? Not to my knowledge. Well, n other words--- That name doesn't do nothng for me. Jack Knapp, also known as Romeo Natt? That name seems famlar, but don't know. have no dea. How about George Butler? know George. How do you know George? He's a polceman here. A polceman here n Dallas? And how dd you come to know hm? don't know. Pardon? have no dea how come to know hm.

27 ' 1015 _ A 3 n You don't remember the frst tme you met hm? No, sr. How many tmes dd you have contact wth hm? A ~ A wouldn't have any dea. 5 l 4 Uh-huh. What was the nature of your contact wth hm? 6 A have no dea what that would be. He was a polceman, 7 B S 10 l 0 11 he was probably dong hs job. 4 s t possble that Butler was one of the -- You have a number of arrests durng that tme perod, '41 through '54, could t -- s t possble that Butler was one of the arrestng offcers on any one of the arrests that you 12 ~ 13! A ~j 18 1S ~ A 20 ~! ~ ; A 22 ' 4 23 A < ~ 4 25 had durng that tme span? n probablty, t could be. have no dea. f they arrest you, they arrest you, don't take ther numbers and badges. Do you know whether -- To your knowledge, do you know f Jack Ruby knew George Butler or had any dealngs wth hm? wouldn't have any way of knowng t. Okay. How about Steve Guthre? Steve Guthre was a Sherff here. Dd you know hm? Yes. Dd you know hm personally as opposed to knowng who he was because he was the Sherff? n other words, dd you

28 1016 have personal contacts wth hm? Just when he arrested me, that's all the contacts ever had. Dd he personally arrest you? Yes. And what dd he arrest you for? Probably vagrancy. j Can you recall what year? Whenever he was elected Sherff, don't know what year he was elected. Okay. Do you know f Ruby, Jack Ruby, had any nvolvement wth Steve Guthre? have no dea. Okay. Mr. Todd, do you know an ndvdual by the name of James Henry Dolan? met Jm Dolan, yes. When dd you frst meet Jm Dolan.? Probably n the '50's. Okay. And what was the nature of your meetng wth hm? No nature, somebody ntroduced me. At a restaurant? have no dea of whether t was at a restaurant. Could we say -- To your knowledge, was Dolan wth Los Green? wouldn't have any way of knowng. assocated

29 101 7!Q Why wouldn't you have any way of knowng? 2 1- never asked Los f he.knew hm. Well, do you know f he was n fact, whether Los told you or not, dd you know that or dd you have any nklng that Dolan, was part of that group? wouldn't have any way of knowng. Well, so your answer then s you dd not know or he was? don't know. How well dd you know Dolan? Very very casual. And what do you mean by,'bery very casual"? probably n my lfetme have ever seen hm over four tmes or fve. And what would be the crcumstances when you saw hm j A four or fve tmes? Would t be--- Pass hm on the street. 17 Dd you ever have any lengthy conversatons wth hm? 1c t's accordng to how you classfy lengthy. "How are you 17!' 2 "How have you been?" "How's everythng?" "Good to see you.,, Uh-huh. And that's t? (nods head) Dd you know what Dolan, dd when he lved n Dallas? 24 ;~ A never asked hm Q Are you famlar wth a place- called Sue's Car Lot?

30 A Sue's? Q Yes. v A Yes., d Q Okay. What s Sue's Car Lot? What s t and where s t l 5 A Sue's Car Lot doesn't exst any more. 6 Q Okay. when dd t exst? 7 h A Oh, back n the '40's, guess. 8 ~~ Q And was Sue's Used Car Lot as the name would suggest, a 9 used car lot? 10 A Pardon me? 11 4 n other words, what was Sue's Car Lot? 12 A Sue's Car Lot was a car lot That's what asked, but t ddn't come out that way. 14 And where was that located? A Over on Lve Oak Street. n Dallas? Yes. How often dd you go to Sue's Used Car Lot? worked there. You worked there? As what? As a salesman. How long dd you work there? don't know. Probably two years. A year and a half. 24 ( Q Do you recall what years?

31 1019 Well, was t early '40's, durng the war, after the war? don't remember. j Well, dd t do a pretty good busness? Yeah, would say they dd a far busness, yes. j Okay. Let's see f we can pn the tme down. Durng World War, were you n the Servce? No. 8, Q Do you recall whether you worked there n the early '40's 9,~ durng World War? don't recall. Well, do you remember what you dd durng the early '40's! Do you remember what you dd durng the war? A worked at North Amercan. Q North Amercan? A Avaton. 16 Q Durng the entre war years? X7. 1 ; A was workng there n '41 when the war broke out. 18 ~ Q And how long dd you work there? 19 A Qute awhle. 20 ; Q Two, three years? 21 A Could have been. 22 ~ Q Okay. 23 ~~ MR. BESEL : Let me nterrupt you just a 2< mnute, Counsel, n order to make ths a lttle more ~! 25 ; defntve, f mght. Mr. Todd, whle you were at

32 1020 Sue's Used Car Lot, were you workng under the name J.R. Todd? 3 THE WTNESS : Yes. 4! MR. BESEL : And dd you have Socal S Securty and wthholdng taxes? 6 j~ THE WTNESS : Yes, dd. 7 8! the government, f they wanted? MR. BESEL : Are those stll avalable to 911 MR. MCDONALD : Well, can answer that queston, 0 l! no, they are not. Socal Securty doesn't keep 11 those knd of records, and am just tryng to pn t 12 down as far as years. 'm not tryng to get the exact 13 E l dates, but thnk, t's reasonable to thnk that we can 14 perhaps just work our way to fgure whether t was durng f t was not durng World War, we know t's between 16 ~ 17 '45 and '50. Would that be a reasonable tme frame to be talkng about? 18 A (The Wtness) t could have been, but am not statng. 19 don't recall. You know, my guess would be as good as yours. j ~ 4 (Mr. McDonald) Okay. Durng the tme you worked at 23 A Sue's Car Lot, f he dd, never saw hm. dd Jack Ruby ever come there? 24 a l 4 Well, dd you know hm? Dd you know Jack Ruby n 1946,

33 " A n all probablty, dd, yes. P 2 11Q Do you recall hm comng to Sue's Car Lot? 3 A don't ever recall hm comng to Sue's Car Lot. 4,Q Dd any other ndvduals come to the car lot? 5 'A We was n busness, there was a lot of people comng. Q Do you recall whether Ruby used to come there on a regula bass, not just once or twce? 8, A just told you never saw hm there n my lfe. Q Uh-huh. Okay. Mr. Todd, do you know an ndvdual by 10 the name of John El Stone? 11 ~ A Yes, sr. 12 ~~ Q Okay. How do you know hm? 13 A Lke you know Maxwell. ;4 Q Uh-huh. n other words, you know hm casually? 15 A Yes. 1 Q That's not lke know Maxwell, but lke you know Maxwell 17 A Yeah. 18 ~~ Q And how long have you known hm? 19 A Snce n the '40's. ~1 20 Q Okay. Do you stll know hm? 2 ; A 'd know f he walked n the door. Q when's the last tme you saw hm? 23 A Probably a year or so ago. 24 Okay. s he stll engaged n bookmakng, do you know? 25, A have no dea.

34 1022 Okay. How about James Woodrow Stone, Jm Stone? Who? Stone, Jm Stone? 3 A You've lost me there. 5 Q Okay. Albert Meadows? 6 '' A Al Meadows? Yeah. l 911Q Yeah, know hm. How long have you known hm? 10 A Snce n the '40's. 11 ~', Q Do you stll know hm? 12 A Yes, sr. 13 Q He s stll alve? 13 fl A As far as know. 15 l, Q When's the last tme you saw hm? 16 A Probably four, fve months ago, sx. 17 ~ Q Pardon? 18 A About four, fve, sx months ago. 19 lk Q Okay. What busness s he n? s he a bookmaker? 20 ~ A don't thnk so, but never asked hm. 21 jj Q Okay. How about the fellow mentoned frst, Stone? 22 Stone s known as a bookmaker? 23 MR. BESEL : don't thnk t's proper for 23 ~; Mr. Todd to characterze these people as bookmakers or 25 ;, l whatever, that's for the newspaper reporters and wrters

35 1023 to characterze. don't thnk t's proper for Mr. Todd to characterze anybody as a bookmaker or--- MR. McDONALD : Well, okay. That's true. (Mr. McDonald) But do you know them as -- these ndvduals as makng book or nvolved n--- don't k,-,.>w them lke that ether. Okay. Dd ck Ruby have any assocaton wth these ndvduals that we just mentoned? A Q wouldn't have any dea. n other words, yoll were ne,--~r present wth any of these ndvduals? 12 ~ A 13 j Q 14 ~ A 16 ~ Not to my knowledge. Well, understand what you're sayng when you say not to your knowledge, but--- want you to understand that because, you know, f saw Jack Ruby, don't pay no attenton f somebody's 17 standng there next to hm. Everybody on the street Q would know hm from one end other, but, mean--- When dd you frst meet Ja of Commerce Street to the k Ruby?,21 ~~ A Best remember t was over on Ervey Street, whenever he had the Slver Spur or whatever that place s called. When dd you meet hm? Whenever the record wall show that he had the Slver Spur, _ don't know.

36 1024 That would be early 1950? don't know. Well, would t be safe to assume that you frst met Ruby, sometme durng, we'll say, the early '50's, late '40's? 5 Have you known hm that long? 6 'A Whenever they had 3.2 beer here, that's all know. 7 Q When was that? 8 ',A don't know. f knew that, would know what year t was. 10 Q Do you recall where you frst met hm? 11 ~A beleve, the frst tme ever met hm was when he had 12 ~ the Slver Spur Q Dd he own a place called the Vegas Club? 14 1 ~ A heard rumors that he dd, but don't know that to be l a fact. Q Okay. How dd you come to meet hm at the Slver Spur? j 17 ~~ A would go n there lke everybody else would Q Uh-huh. Dd you get to know hm well? l 19 l A No, sr. 20 Q How often would you have contact wth hm? A f went n the Slver Spur, would see hm and speak to hm, f you call that contact. 23 ~ Q Dd you ever back n the, we'll say, the early 50's, do. 24 you recall a restaurant called the B a, B on Oaklawn 25 Street?

37 Dd you used to frequent that? On occasons, yes, sr. Do you remember whether the Vegas Club was n the vcnty of the B & B restaurant? About three doors down. Do you recall ever meetng Ruby n the Vegas Club? Meetng hm n the Vegas Club? Uh-huh. f went n the Vegas Club, and he was there, he would say, "Hello," that's about t. never went there specfcally to meet hm, no. Dd you ever go to the Carousal Club when Ruby owned the Carousal Club? Where was the Carousal Club? MR. MCDONALD : Al, where was t? MR. MAXWELL : On Commerce. THE WTNESS : Here? MR. MAXWELL : Across from the AdolPlus THE WTNESS : Yes, have been n the ' Carousal. (Mr. McDonald) And dd you see Ruby when you would frequent the Carousal? ddn't ever say that frequented t. sad have

38 1026 been n the Carousal Club, and have probably been n there three tmes n my lfe. Uh-huh. How about the Sngapore Club? Where was that? MR. MAXWELL : don't know. jq (Mr. McDonald) Somewhere n downtown Dallas? 7 ~A don't recall t. 8 Q Okay. Well, durng the years that you knew Ruby, pror ' to 1963, how would you descrbe your relatonshp wth hm? To straghten the record out, never sad that knew Ruby other than just by f he walked down the street, 12 l would recognze hm as Jack Ruby, and f he walked n that door, would recognze hm as Jack Ruby, and that's Q 16 t. You're testfyng that you never had any conversatons wth hm beyond a casual--- 17, A 18 Q Beyond a casual conversaton, correct. What we're tryng to determne s why -- and know we have started out the Deposton wth the dscusson, but the phone number of the name Jack that was found on a sls of paper n Ruby's car, t was your number, and so, the queston s : Why would Jack Ruby have your name and number on a pece of paper n hs car? 24 A have no dea. 25 ~ Q Okay. You can thnk of no reason?

39 1027 No reason whatsoever. Dd he ever call you? Dd Ruby ever telephone you? Not to my knowledge. Well, do you remember that he dd? No, sr. Okay. But t's possble that he could have, you just don't remember? t's possble. MR. BESEL : That queston, Counselor, "s t possble, Mr. Ruby," anythng s possble. Mr. t 12 3 Todd would have no way of knowng. Mr. Todd would only know whether or not he talked to Mr. Ruby. (Mr. McDonald) Okay. And you don't recall talkng to to Mr. Ruby over the telephone? Q 17 ~ No, sr. And you can gve us no reason why that slp of paper was found n Ruby's car? 1g l l 20 ~ A Q No, sr. And your testmony s that your relatonshp wth Ruby was merely a casual hello? 21 l A That's rght. 22 ~ Q Okay. Dd you know any of Ruby's relatves, hs brother, 23 ~ Sam, Sam Ruby? 24 A Seemed lke he was ponted out, but don't thnk ever 25 met hm.

40 l v '1Q How about Earl Ruby? Who? Earl, hs brother, Earl Ruby? 4 '' A don't know. l 5! Q Eva Grant? 6 A Eva Grant, f t's the one am thnkng of, used to take! 7 ; tckets at the club, but don't know. Q At what club? j 9 ' A The one out there on Oaklawn The Vegas Club? A Yeah. Q Eva Grant would--- A thnk that's true, yeah.!~! Q 'm gong to ask you these questons. Dd you have any knowledge durng 1959 that Jack Ruby took a trp to Cuba? A Not to my knowledge. Q n other words, what you're sayng s, you don't know? A wouldn't have any way of knowng. 4 Do you know whether Jack Ruby was nvolved n the numbers l A wouldn't have any way of knowng. ; 4 s there anyone that you thnk would know the answers to A No. some of the questons am askng you? Q n other words, any of your frends? Dd you have at that tme any frends who knew Ruby better than you dd?

41 1029 Well, f they knew hm at all, they would know hm better than me. Dd you know an ndvdual by the name of Ralph Paul? 4 11 A 6 ' Q 1 1 A Not to my knowledge. n other words, you don't remember hm, f you dd know hm? That's rght. B l Q How about George Senator? know George Senator. Q 11 A.!, 12 Q A 15 ~ Q 16 ~ 17 1s ~ A How do you know hm? bought some clothes from hm. Uh-huh. When s the last tme you bought some clothes from hm? A year or two. Uh-huh. How dd George Senator come to sell you some clothes? understand he sells clothes out of the back of hs car? Correct. 19 ~ Q And how dd you come to be n contact wth hm? 20 A 21 Just probably sttng down and he came n wth some clothes, and bought them. 22 see. Can you recall where you were? 23 ~; A 24, Q l 25! A Not rght offhand, no. When s the last tme you saw hm? Oh, probably four to sx months ago.

42 1030 Q Can you recall where you saw hm? 2 'A Greenvlle Avenue. Greenvlle Avenue here n Dallas? Uh-huh. 5 Q At a specfc spot, a restaurant or a bar or what? 6 A At a parkng lot. '1, 7 Q Was he settng up shop, so to speak? 3 ( A He was gettng n hs car. 9 llll t Q Gettng n hs car. How about OD. Mathews? 10 ;! A know R~D. How do you know hm? A Casual. l, Q When was the frst tme you met R,D. Mathews? A Seems lke t was rght after the war. l Q What knd of busness was Mathews n? A never asked hm. ;, Q when you say, "casual", what do you mean by that? A Just casual, how would you descrbe casual? ~~ Q Well, 'm askng you. A 'm tryng to get you to gve me a lttle assstance here n descrbng t. L e,..,.s How about 3.OU8 McWlle? LAus McWlle? Yes. L t.,, S know 4av-s McWlle.

43 103 1 What's the nature of your relatonshp wth hm? Very casual. Okay. And when's the last tme you saw +4r. McWlle? Probably ffteen years ago, eghteen. How about Joe Bons? Yeah, know Joe. Casual relatonshp? Very very casual. When's the last tme you saw hm?. Probably '49. Uh-huh. P ; How about LYnne Patrck? don't beleve so. Does the name sound famlar? No. Dave Yaras, Sam Yaras, Y-A-R-A-S? No. How about Johnny Patrono? Yeah, know Johnny. How dd you know hm? 20 ~ A Just knd of casual. 21 Q Uh-huh. where would you see hm? 2 See hm at the ann's restaurant or Joe's restaurant. 23 Q Would you ever st down and speak wth hm? 24. A 25 Lots of tmes. What knd of conversaton? What would you talk about?

44 1032 Whether he was losng weght or ganng weght, or how he was feelng. To your knowledge, durng the '60's and '50's, do you know whether t be by hearsay or drect personal knowledg4. or whatever, rumor, scuttlebutt, whether Jack Ruby was an nformant for the Dallas Polce Department? wouldn't have any way cf knowng. Well, thnk you mght have had, you know, just general talk among the bar talk and stuff lke taat, Just loose 10 ~~ conversaton, but had that ever come up to your knowledge's 11 A Not to my knowledge, no. mean, thnk, you would have had a lot of casual relatonshps that that mght have come out n conversaton? Not necessarly so. Okay. n an ntervew wth Mr. Maxwell, you mentoned that you had met Morgan Brown, assume, you know Mr. Brown, Mr. Morgan Brown? 19 They asked me f knew Morgan Brown, told them had met one casually, that's what told you, t was n the 20 ~ ol busness, and they sad that was the one n the same. 21 ~! Uh-huh. And when was ths? When dd you meet hm? Q 22 ~ A Oh, back some tme ago. don't recall exactly. mean-~ Q Well, how much s "some tme"? Sx months? 2e A Probably sx months, a year. 25 ~ Q Uh-huh. And where dd you meet hm?

45 t 1033 ; ',1A don't recall. ` Q Well, was t here n Dallas? 9 A Yeah. 4 1Q And what knd of meetng dd you have wth hm? 5 A "Jack, ths s Morgan Brown. Hello." That's t. 6 ;,Q Who ntroduced you? a CA He asked me the same queston, couldn't remember who t l 8 1 : was. 9 Q Was t n a bar, restaurant or offce? 10 MR. BESEL : Counsel, agan, now, we're 11, talkng about what happened here sx months ago. And j 12 agan, we have been talkng about thngs that have been 1? ;.; ffteen years before the assassnaton. Now, we're talkng 1G about thngs that happened ffteen years after. see u, '.5 j, very lttle relevance to the nvestgaton. 16 ;' MR. MCDONALD : Well, Counsel, t s 17 l relevant. 'm not tryng to take up your tme or Mr. 19 Todd's tme. MR. BESEL : Well, we don't have the 2G?1! nformaton, of course, that you have avalable to you, and so, therefore, thngs that appear not to be relevant 22 to us MR. McDONALD : Let me assure you, wouldn't be sttng here askng a queston, f ddn't thnk t 25 was relevant to our nqury. And we are almost completed

46 1034 MR. BESEL : All rght. MR. McDONALD : So, f you wll bear wth me. (Mr. McDonald) We're gettng back to Mr. Brown, Morgan Brown. t was so casual don't recall f told hm. And dd you have -- What knd of conversaton dd you have wth hm? What do you normally say when you meet somebody? You ddn't talk about ol busness or anythng? Well, he was nformed about the ol busness, and was nformed he was n the ol busness, so--- 1? 14, ~ A 19 l4 20 One fnal queston, whch asked you before, but t's somethng that we're tryng to get an understandng that s agan : Why, to your knowledge, would Jack Ruby have your name and phone number on a pece of paper n hs car? would have no way of knowng. n 1963? MR. McDONALD : Okay. have no further questons. to put on the record. MR. BESEL : have some questons want :a p. 25 MR. McDONALD : Okay. CROSS-EXAMNATON

47 1035 BY MR. BESEL : Mr. Todd, we have been questonng ths,mornng, we have gone from 1940's to the 1970's n regard to who you know n Dallas County, Texas. Let me ask you, durng the perod of tme that you knew Mr. Ruby, was he ever a 7 ~~ A No, Sr. guest n your home or you a guest n hs? B ; Q Dd you ever know Mr. Ruby to have any actvtes other! than just a club owner, an operator?! A That's all ever heard of hm do. Dd you have any busness assocaton wth hm at all? No, Sr. Other than just a casual greetng on the street or seeng ; 15 1 all? hm n hs clubs, dd you have any contact wth hm at 16 A No, sr. fl 1' y Q All rght. They characterze what they call the Los 1 9, Green gang, were you aware that there was any organzato 1s or assocaton actual of that n nature? 20 A No, sr.!! Q Now, dd Sue's Used Cars that they talk about, was ths 21 1! 22 any knd of notorous hangout or anythng lke that? 27 was ths a lttle car lot run by a woman on Lve Oak ~ ~ 24 ', Street? 25 '~ A As far as know, that's what t was.

48 1036 Well, you do know, don't you? do. You sold cars there? That's rght. All rght. They have gone through and asked you a bunch of names of people who you know, guess, would you say you meet many people n your busness? Qute a few. Would t be possble for you to meet someone ffteen years ago and not pay any attenton to them when you met them and, you know, maybe meet someone and not remember that you met them? Very possble. All rght. Now, the Camps's, there was some conversaton about the Camps's. Do you know them through ther restaurant busness? Yes. All rght. And other than the fact that before your son marred nto the ann famly, what was your connecton 2G ~~ wth Joe ann? 21 A just knew hm. He was n the restaurant busness. 22 ~ would go n there and eat. 2v l Q n fact, when was a lttle boy, you carred me n hs 24 l 25 ~~ A Probably. restaurant to eat on occason?

49 1037 MR. BESEL : That concludes ths Deposton. Thank you very much. (Whereupon, at 12 :00 p.m., the proceedngs n the above-enttled matter were closed.) ~ 22 (' 23 24

50 1038 CERTFCATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER, CODY C. BLAKESLEE, a Certfed Shorthand Reporter, ~do hereby certfy that the testmony of the wtness whch!appears n the foregong deposton was taken by me n (;shorthand and thereafter reduced to typewrtng by me or under ,my drecton ; that sad deposton s a true record of the testmony gven by sad wtness ; that am nether counsel for, ;;related to, nor employed by any of the partes to the acton n whch ths deposton was taken, and further that am not, l a relatve or employee of any attorney or counsel employed "by the partes thereto, or fnancally or otherwse nterested!jn the outcome of the acton CODY C. BLAKESLEE Certfed Shorthand Reporter

51 1039 have read the foregong pages, 1 through 47, nclusve, and they are a true and accurate record of my testmony theren recorded. J.R. TODD Subscrbed and sworn to before me ths day of, Notary Publc 16 My Commsson Expres : 17 P