Bradley Nassif: Thank you, Jonathan, it's a pleasure to be here.

Transcription

1 Interview with Bradley Nassif Author of Four Views of on Christian Spirituality (Zondervan, 2012) Interview by Jonathan J. Armstrong Date of Interview: May 23, 2016 Transcribed by Alden Wright Edited by Jack DePuy Jonathan J. Armstrong: It s our tremendous privilege today to be speaking with Dr. Bradley Nassif, Professor of Biblical and Theological Studies at North Park University in Chicago. Dr. Nassif earned his Ph.D in Patristics from Fordham University in New York City, and his recent books include "Bringing Jesus to the Desert," available from Zondervan. His other recent book includes "Four Views on Christian Spirituality," and he is a contributor along with Scott Hahn, Joseph Driscoll, and Evan Howard, in this book. Dr. Nassif, thank you so much for being with us. Bradley Nassif: Thank you, Jonathan, it's a pleasure to be here. Jonathan J. Armstrong: Dr. Nassif, would you be willing to tell us about some of the classes that you've been teaching at North Park University this semester? Bradley Nassif: Sure. I do a course on the history of Christianity, from beginnings to the modern world. I also do a course on the Eastern Orthodox theological tradition; that's a new course. It's a unique course for students, because it's not well covered in the curriculum. And I also do courses on Christian Spirituality and Introduction to the Bible. Jonathan J. Armstrong: Excellent. Dr. Nassif, in this book, Christian Spirituality," how would you define Christian spirituality? What is it we re talking about exactly? Bradley Nassif: The term "spirituality" today, Jonathan, can mean almost anything you want it to mean; in a business setting, the term can be synonymous with social skills or communication skills. In non-christian religions, spirituality can mean heightening one's god-consciousness. But, as a Christian, the word spirituality" simply means Christian life and experience--nothing more really. But Christian spirituality does have a specific theological content and orientation. So I would say that, in order for it to be truly Christian, it would have to be Trinitarian spirituality. And by that I mean an authentic experience of God is grounded in the eternal relations between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It's not God in the abstract, but God as He exists in Three equally Divine Persons. Jonathan J. Armstrong: How then is spirituality different from Christian theology? Page 1

2 Bradley Nassif: Well, in fact, it's not all that different. Christian spirituality is simply the working out--or the living--of Christian truth. And, so, the two are inseparable. We can t have experience apart from truth in order for it to be authentic. I like to use the example of a picture frame and the picture. The frame is compared to the doctrinal part, and the picture is more of the experience of God. So, as far as the doctrine goes, the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Trinity are the frame, and the experience must be within that in order to be authentic. That's how you can know whether or not an experience is actually authentic is whether or not it conforms to Divine truth. Otherwise it's just a human emotion or psychological experience. Is it possible for Christians of different denominational backgrounds to disagree on theology, but agree on spirituality, or vice-versa? Well, I think that certainly happens. But if we're going to be logically consistent, we would have to say no, or, at least I would have to say no. Authentic spirituality can only happen in so far as it's grounded in the truth of who God is. Compare, for example, Pentecostal or Charismatic Christians, with cessationist Christians. Most, but not all, Pentecostals share a common belief with cessationists in the doctrine of the Trinity, but their outward spiritual expression is very different from each other. One group speaks in tongues, but another doesn't. Here I would trace the different experience within these two communities back to a fundamental difference over their theological understanding of the work of the Spirit in the Church today. Something, theologically, has gone astray there. If spiritual life is not grounded in theological truth, then there can be as many spiritualties as there are denominations, which is exactly what we have today. So, if the Christian faith is one, then Christian experience must be consistent with that. But I would add an important qualification, namely, that such experience can still be very diverse and very personal. Spiritual experience is not monolithic, but it is grounded in the truth of Christ in order for it to be real. There's diversity in unity, unity in diversity, but there is not contradiction in theology. Jonathan J. Armstrong: In this book we're discussing today, "Four Views on Christian Spirituality," you, Dr. Nassif, write the chapter on Eastern Orthodox spirituality, and you anchor your chapter in the centrality of the gospel. How does Eastern Orthodox spirituality relate to this gospel? Bradley Nassif: Well, Jonathan, the gospel lies at the very heart of the Eastern Orthodox Church. In a multitude of ways, it's present in every worship service and every life-giving action of the Church. the late father Alexander Schmemann said that the entire liturgy is adorned with the doctrines of the Trinity and Christology, and I couldn t agree more. In short, in a nutshell, in the Orthodox Tradition, the gospel is the work of the Holy Trinity to restore humans to union with God and communion with each other for the good of the world and the glory of God. So, this is manifested in a host of ways; for example, in its hymnography. The hymns of the of the church, during the liturgy, is an absolute treasure chest of gospel theology. It speaks of the Fall of Adam, and the expulsion from paradise, the prophets of the Old Testament looking forward to the coming of Christ, Christ becoming the Second Person of the Trinity, the Son of God becoming human and suffering and dying and rising again and returning to the Father. So, the hymnography of the church does that. Another area is in the church calendar. The lectionary is chock full of gospel truths, starting from the gospels and going through the different periods of the year. Sacraments of baptism, and communion especially, are also gospel sacraments. So Page 2

3 that's fundamentally how it is. Now, I would say though, having said that, you do have to be a bit educated in the Church to know, and to be alert, and the services have to be sung well and said well to get this. Not everybody in the Church knows that or experiences that, but that is what the Church offers. One of my big concerns over the years has actually been that just because the gospel is in the life of the Orthodox Church, that doesn't mean that everybody has understood it, or appropriated it for themselves. So, pastorally, the gospel really needs to be taught and made clear to each person in each generation, and God has called me to do that in the life of the church, among other things. Jonathan J. Armstrong: Dr. Nassif, would you expound on that a little bit? I'm an Evangelical, I m working at Moody Bible Institute, so myself and my students are familiar with a revivalistic tradition whereby a Church service, even a Church service for those who have been faithfully going to the Church for many years, still might conclude with the gospel invitation. The preacher might call people to the front to give their lives to Christ or something along these lines. You tell us that the gospel is proclaimed in the Divine Liturgy, but through symbols and through a rich layer of this liturgical meaning. How is the gospel proclaimed in the church service specifically, and are we relying on the Holy Spirit to apply that gospel to somebody who walks into the service? How was that gospel proclaimed? Bradley Nassif: Well, as I said a moment ago, what is necessary for a person to be educated. Unfortunately, not fortunately and unfortunately, the Church presumes a certain amount of theological education on the part of the people. It's not designed, necessarily, for unbelievers. The worship service presumes that people know Christ. Now, that still, to answer your question more directly, the proclamation of the gospel does take place in the preaching of the of the pastor. The preaching service, that part of the liturgy, is a time in which the gospel is made clear. Every Sunday morning, there is a special gospel reading in the lectionary out of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, and that is certainly one of the places. Aside from that though, you mentioned rituals, and symbols, and things like that. The icons in the church are visual signs of the gospel. These are--i would call them the gospel in lines and color. It s the gospel in portrait. It's the gospel through the eyes. So, on the one hand, you have the verbal proclamation coming from the pulpit, on the other hand you have the gospel coming from the icons. God became human and the icons are a way of affirming the Incarnation. They're not just pretty pictures. They there was a great controversy in the 8th and 9th centuries over the debate of the icons. And, as a result, in the Seventh Ecumenical Council, the church made the declaration that icons are only appropriate because God became human, and you can see Him. And, so, in that sense, the Gospels proclaimed the salvation that is given to us in the Incarnation. Other signs are a multitude of rituals and symbolic enactments of the gospel, where the Trinity and Christology are proclaimed, and so forth. Now, having said that, I need to tell you as well that this is still an urgent pastoral need in the Orthodox Church. Just because the gospel is there, and you can see it in the images, people can end up like I was. Page 3

4 See, I grew up in the Antiochian Orthodox Church. I'm Lebanese in my cultural heritage. The old Church of Antioch that you read about in Acts 11:26 didn't die out after the Apostles died. The church that was left behind continued, and in the fourth and fifth century, of course, it was greatly involved in the Christological debates. But here I am, I grew up in the Church. I was going to Church every Sunday. The priests in those days it was an immigrant period, we were lucky to get anybody from the old country, from Lebanon and Syria. And, so, honestly, the ones we got didn t really have a good theological training. So I came into the church going through the services, but not knowing Christ! Now, it was due to the outreach of Billy Graham, partly, when I was a 12, 13, or 12-year old boy, that the gospel was made clear. And other people, kids in high school, reached out to me. So it was of several people. My life changed on September 17, 1971 due to Evangelicals that have helped me to see the Christ of my own faith. So what I'm saying is, you can grow up religious, but lost, in the Orthodox Church, just as you can in other Churches as well. And so that's why I feel it's so important that, as a theologian, I know the gospel is there now; my goodness I've had 15 years of theological education after that, and now I understand. But one must never assume that, just because people are going to Church, they know Jesus Christ. They may not. They may be religious, but they may not have a personal relationship. So, it is urgent that the Church, in each generation, make the gospel clear and central; that s the key words, clear and central, to every person in every generation. It can be done through preaching, it can be done through the confessional, it can be done on a private, personal counseling basis, it can be done with evangelistic outreach, and so forth. So, when I say that the gospel is in the Church, I don't mean necessarily that everybody has accepted it or understood it; that is where the ministry of pastoring and the ministry of the Bishop is so important. Jonathan J. Armstrong: Thank you, Dr. Nassif, so much for that reflection. Doctor Nassif, you speak of deification in your portion of this text, "Four Views on Christian Spirituality," and deification is probably the part of Orthodox teaching that's the most difficult for evangelicals to really wrap their minds around. Would you be willing to explain to us what is deification, and how does it function in Eastern Orthodox spirituality? Bradley Nassif: The first thing I would say, to clarify, is that the word deification" does not appear in the New Testament. But neither does the term Trinity, or Millennium, and other doctrinal terms. The key question is what the word deification means, and whether it s supported by Scripture. The person who summarized the teaching best, I think in the church, comes from Saint Athanasius of Alexandria in the fourth century. He was the defender of the Nicene Creed and he said, "God became man so that man might become God." Now, at first modern Christians might take offense of this, and wonder if the Church is teaching that we can become God in some absolute sense; as if we can become fourth Persons of the Trinity, or that some come to possess creative powers of some kind. It sounds like Mormonism, but in fact such a teaching would be completely blasphemous to the Church. So let me start by saying that it's not what the Church teaches. Instead, Orthodoxy teaches that those who are divinized remain eternally distinct from God. God is God. We will never lose touch with our creaturely status, or be changed into God s being. Page 4

5 Now, having said that, the next thing I want to say is that: when God created Adam and Eve, He created them with the design that they be in communion with Him forever. But, as we all know from the Genesis account, they disobeyed God, and they failed in their created purpose. And for that reason, God became human in the Person of Jesus Christ to bring salvation. Now I don t have time to get deeply into the Scriptural foundation, but here are a couple of key texts: Second Peter chapter 1 verses 3 and 4; Peter says, "his divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness, so that we may become partakers of the divine nature." So here, Peter tells us that Christians are to be made like God in some sense: partakers of the divine nature as he put it. First John 3:2-3 tells us, when Christ is revealed, we will be like him for we will see him as he is and all who have this hope in Christ purify themselves as he is pure." So there are many texts that we could look at for the collective testimony of Scripture, and that is, though, that God wants us to be transformed, to become like the Image of the Son of God. Now, I would say this is not just an attitudinal change, or a moral change. It's that, but it's more. Likeness to Christ and deification will be a visible likeness. Two more quick texts are the Transfiguration and Second Corinthians 3:18 and Romans 8:29. In the Transfiguration, you know the story, Jesus brings to the mountain Peter James and John, and there He is transfigured before them. His face shone brightly, the Gospel writers tell us, and His garments were radiant. The Glory of His Divinity shone through the ordinaries of His humanity. So, without ceasing to be human, Christ s humanity became glorified. What Christ is in His glorified humanity, is an image of what we will become in the last day. So it's not just a revelation of His Divinity, it's about glorified humanity. So, the Transfiguration anticipates the redemption of our humanity by the divine glory; we will be deified as Christ s human nature was deified, but we'll never be God by essence. That's only reserved for the Trinity. Finally, Second Corinthians 3:18 and Romans 8:29. 3:18 puts it this way, "but we all, with an unveiled face, with beholding as in a mirror, the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image. From glory to glory, just as from the Lord the Spirit." Romans 8:29, Paul says God predestined us to "be conformed to the image of his Son." So, that's what s meant by deification. Deification involves the entire person body and soul our likeness will pervade both the material and the immaterial aspects of human nature, and deification fulfills the very purpose of creation that was lost, and Christ redeemed and saved. It looks forward to the final goal at the end of human history, in the new heavens and the new earth. So, that in a nutshell I would say is really what the heart of deification is all about. Jonathan J. Armstrong: Dr. Nassif, thank you so much for unfolding that for us very clearly and systematically. Thank you. Doctor Nassif, on what points is Eastern Orthodox spirituality perhaps different from Roman Catholic spirituality? Bradley Nassif: Yeah, well, of course, that's a long question and I tried to answer that in the book, so I would refer your readers to a more complete answer there. But I can say that, in short, the big difference is over ecclesiology and the nature of the Church. But, with regard to Catholicism and Orthodoxy in particular, the first thing I would say is that we do share a lot in common in our overall vision of Christian life and thought. Scott Hahn, the Roman Catholic theologian who wrote in the book, put it well when he said, "the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and life." And, so, the Trinity and Incarnation Page 5

6 are crucial foundations to deification for the Orthodox, or the life of grace as, Scott Hahn calls it, for the Catholic Church. Hahn goes on to say that salvation is not merely from sin but for sonship, for the sake of Divine adoption. And this comports well with Orthodox spirituality, as explained by the early fathers. I would also draw a point of common ground between Orthodox and Catholic spirituality in the area of sacramental theology, especially baptism and Eucharist. This places a central role these sacraments play a central role in Christian spirituality. Having said that in terms of the common ground, areas in which there are differences, particularly different ethos, pervades our two Churches. In my experience, there really is a certain rigidity, in Catholic sacramental theology that is not there in Orthodoxy. For example, the numbering of the sacraments as the Seven Sacraments, is not really the traditional way the Church Fathers of the Orthodox Tradition have approached those saving mysteries of the gospel. I don't want to overstate the case, but in Orthodoxy, the sacraments are seen more as relational gifts than rational realities. So there's a difference there. Also, on the devotional level, it seems as though the place of the Virgin Mary is different between Roman Catholic and Orthodox piety. The Catholic dogma, for example, of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, is not an official teaching of the Orthodox church. in Catholicism, it seems as though Mary takes on a life of her own in some sense, whereas in Orthodoxy, Mary acquires her significance only in relation to her Son and our Savior, Jesus Christ. You look at the iconography, for example, with the exception of the Annunciation and things like that, Mary, in Orthodox tradition, is never to be depicted alone. In one beautiful icon Mary has her hands, and she's called the directress. She s pointing the way to her Son; "it's not about me," she's saying, "it's about my Son. So, that Christological dimension is important, probably also because they were fought out the Christology debates were fought in the Christian East. Other important areas, just to note them, are the Catholic doctrines of papal infallibility, universal jurisdiction, the use of the Filioque clause in the Creed Nicene Creed, among others. So those are the areas, I would say, the parameters of our unity and disunity. Jonathan J. Armstrong: Dr. Nassif, you have been involved in many dialogues, both formal and informal, in ecumenical settings. In your perspective, what are the opportunities and challenges that face real ecumenical progress in the decades ahead? Bradley Nassif: The short answer is, the needs that we have, the opportunities and challenges, the first thing is the need for a will on the part of the people. We need to have the will to try to work toward Christian unity more than we have. This goes for the Orthodox as well as for Evangelicals and others. And so, that's it. Now, I would direct you to, for Orthodox and Evangelical dialogue, there is a very important dialogue that has gone on for the last three years that was sponsored by the Lausanne Evangelism Committee. I don't know if you're aware of it, Jonathan, but, for the past three years, the Lausanne Commission has initiated a dialogue with the Orthodox and the Catholics, but the Orthodox one has survived more than the Catholic one has. And this is a truly historic occasion, which I never thought I'd ever see in my lifetime. I've been a pioneer of Orthodox/Evangelical dialogue here in North America, along with other people. And this is an occasion I never thought I would witness. And what it is is, in the last Page 6

7 three years, through the Lausanne Outreach, there has been an international group of senior Orthodox and Evangelical leaders that have met in Albania and Helsinki Finland. We met for a week of conferences, and we discussed how we can witness to Jesus Christ together. I was shocked! There were people from all over the world: Russia, bishops and priests, and hierarchs, people in high, high positions in the church who I never thought would attend such a conference; they were there. And both Caledonian and non-caledonian from India, and Russia, and Romania, and Lebanon, and Syria, and Egypt, all over the world. And you can see this, or the readers can also go to it, if they look at the website, the Lausanne Orthodox initiative, and it s and you can see all that has happened. I would also recommend an article I wrote a number of years ago titled Eastern Orthodoxy and evangelicalism: the Status of an Emerging Global Dialogue," and this is in the book by Dan Clendenin titled "Eastern Orthodox Theology." And there I give a summary of all that's happened. Jonathan J. Armstrong: Dr. Nassif, if I can conclude with a question that we ve been asking all of our speakers on this program, and that is, what would it mean today for the church to be united? How might we recognize this unity, and what can we do today to pursue real Christian unity? Bradley Nassif: Well, I think we have to approach it with, first of all, courage to be honest and truthful about where we are theologically. From the Orthodox perspective, there can be no true unity unless there is unity in the faith. And that is why the Orthodox have participated in World Council of Church meetings, as well as more conservative dialogues that I just mentioned with Evangelicals. And it's important to the Orthodox that unity not be based on a flimsy minimum of what we just can agree on at the bare bottom, because in the theology of the Church, Christian truth is maximalist. The Incarnation embraces the whole of creation. Now I'm not saying that before there's unity, there has to be unity on every single point, because the Church hasn't really made that many dogmatic statements. But I'm talking about things such as the ecumenical councils the Seven Ecumenical Councils talking about sacramental theology, unity in Trinitarian thought, and unity in the hierarchy that the bishops and the nature of the church as a sacramental eucharistic community presided over by the bishops who are in communion with one another. So, the first thing I would say is, to work together, there must be serious work done at the level of theology. Now, having said that, we all know from experience that theology has been divisive, and theology has not always brought forth the fruit that we want. The Orthodox continued to be a witness to the importance of that and not to lay it aside, some Christians want to lay it aside and just go together on other things. I would say the areas in which we should work toward unity, and actually can do now, is in the area of the social agenda. Orthodox, and all Christians, Catholic and historic Christians I should say, and Protestants, can work together in moral issues such as what the state is now doing with redefining marriage, and homosexuality, and this kind of thing are things we can work together on. As for evangelism, I would say, and not all Orthodox would agree with me about this, but I don't have a problem with it because I've spent so much time in Evangelical communities and their educational institutions; I know that there s nothing to fear. But on the area of evangelism, I Page 7

8 would be of the kind of that Billy Graham did a number of years ago, what he called cooperative evangelism. When Communism dominated Russia, he went to Russia and preached the gospel there. This is a country that has the largest population of Orthodox in the world. After he preached the gospel, those who came forward to have faith in Christ, those who came from an Orthodox background were then funneled back into an Orthodox church for discipleship. That kind of cooperative evangelism seems to me both having integrity and and, at the same, time we're working together as Christians. So, I would say that. As for Evangelicals, my advice to them would be study church history. The late Alexander Schmemann said "the most valuable perspective on the present are those which have carefully digested the past. So, if Evangelicals want to understand the Orthodox better, they need to be patient, study Church history as well as the Bible, but Church history is very important, and together we can make a difference in this world for the sake of Jesus Christ, and the good news of the gospel. We can share together the same triumphant cry that we Orthodox and all Christians say: Christ is risen. Jonathan J. Armstrong: It s been our delight today to be speaking with Dr. Bradley Nassif, Professor of Biblical and Theological studies at North Park University in Chicago, and contributor to the book that we've been discussing today, "Four Views on Christian Spirituality," available from Zondervan. Thank you, Dr. Nassif, so much for being with us today. Bradley Nassif: Well, it s my privilege. Thank you, Jonathan. Page 8