Lama Zopa Rinpoche: Foundations for the Flourishing of Dharma in the West

Transcription

1 Lama Zopa Rinpoche: Foundations for the Flourishing of Dharma in the West TRANSCRIPT Daniel Aitken: Rinpoche, you mentioned the other night that in Tibet lots of people, the older people especially, would say the mantra OM MANI PADME HUM, OM MANI PADME HUM, OM MANI PADME HUM, and you said that you notice these days mostly people are saying, When will I be happy? When will I be happy? So, Rinpoche, I was wondering, with this mindset what in the Buddha s teachings is most helpful? Lama Zopa Rinpoche: Explain. DA: Yes, this when-will-i be-happy mindset. LZR: I was saying that I was listening to the old mothers what they are praying. I tried to listen. Many made incredible prayers, even dedications, for all sentient beings. Not just for yourself, not just for your family, not just for the people who are your objects of attachment, not like that, but all the six realms, there are numberless sentient beings in each realm, all sentient beings they pray

2 to free them from the oceans of samsaric sufferings and to achieve Chenrezig s enlightenment. They dedicate for that and they recite the mantra OM MANI PADME HUM, six syllables. Even if they don t know much Dharma, they don t have intellect or anything, with bodhichitta, with ultimate good heart, they generate that and then they recite OM MANI PADME HUM for every sentient being. That means every human being without discrimination. There are numberless human beings in numberless universes, other than the hell beings, hungry ghosts, animals, the numberless insects, the mosquitoes, ants, bah, bah, bah. It covers, it benefits, everybody, obscured, suffering sentient being. I think that was... I was so amazed by the old mothers. Many old mothers do like that. This I noticed, yes. It is due to, I think, to His Holiness kindness, basically, I think, even though they didn t get to learn much Buddhist philosophy. I was saying in the West, When I can be happy? When I can be happy? day and night, day and night, all the time, when they are walking. You just think of yourself, generally. I mean there are buddhas and bodhisattvas, yes, who we see in ordinary form, but generally it is like that. Comparing, it is like that. But, of course, yes, there are many Westerners also who have good heart, very good heart, not involved with self-happiness, my happiness, but do everything purely from the heart. Very good, thank you. DA: Rinpoche, even without much Dharma knowledge just saying this mantra and having these thoughts is beneficial? LZR:: Yes, yes. To generate a good heart cherishing or thinking of all sentient beings, obscured suffering sentient beings, to benefit them, that is very good, bah, bah, bah, skies of benefit. DA: Rinpoche, you were reflecting on Tibet and I was wondering, you escaped from Tibet. LZR: Yes. DA: And then you came to India, which was the place where the Buddha taught... LZR: Yeah. DA:... and I was wondering what you thought when you came to India? Is it what you expected or was it a surprise? How was it when you came to India? LZR: I escaped from Tibet, called Phagri, near Dromo, where I became a monk, Dromo Geshe s monastery where I became a monk. I escaped from Tibet, Phagri, through Bhutan to West Bengal, Buxa. I was there eight years. A very interesting thing is we planned to go to Dromo Geshe s monastery s branches in Darjeeling, there are several. We didn t plan to stay in Buxa but to go straight. Then, no abbot and no disciplinary monk didn t stop us. Nobody stopped us, only the police[man] who speaks Tibetan, Tashi Babu, who was the head of the police. Only he stopped us, You can t go and another monk should be with you. The others he didn t let go. It was very strange. I think it is the guru-deities, the protectors, Dharma protectors, I think, who stopped me at Buxa. Otherwise, I would have gone to hell. I don t think I would have lasted. Then I studied, I had a little opportunity. My study was that of a little child. For eight year I was able to hear, to leave positive imprints for enlightenment, to achieve enlightenment, the Buddhist philosophical teachings from the kind, compassionate guru, Gen Rabten. He had very many disciples. He was a great learned erudite practitioner. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche was his root guru and Lama Yeshe s root guru. It is said Gen Rabten and my teacher, Lama Yeshe, had the same realizations. Also another teacher, his disciple, Gen Yeshe, was at Buxa. Then, from there I came to Nepal and 2

3 started a monastery, Kopan and Lawudo. From there started the whole organization, teaching Dharma to... First I tried to translate with my broken English for Lama Yeshe; at the beginning, some words. Like that it started. Now how many centers? Ven. Roger: 161. LZR: 161, mostly meditation [centers]. Now there has been incredible study of Buddhist philosophy and the essence, lamrim, bah, bah, bah. Many qualified, forty-one qualified teachers, including Geshe-la. There are two geshes here, Geshe Sherab and then geshe? Huh? Ven. Roger: Tinley. LZR: Tinley. Forty-one. They open the minds, wisdom, to eliminate the ignorance due to which they have been suffering from beginningless rebirths, which were made by ignorance, opening the wisdom eye, bah, bah, bah, to see. Then, [they teach] the Four Noble Truths, the paths and bhumis, then also the tantra subjects, enlightenment, bah, bah, bah. That is what they do, including Wisdom Publications. DA: It is quite amazing, Rinpoche. LZR: Huh? DA: It is quite amazing, Rinpoche. You come from Tibet and you end up in Buxa... LZR: Yeah. DA:... and actually you are saying it is because of the activities of the Dharma protectors. Actually it is very rich Dharma, Geshe Rabten, Gen Yeshe... LZR: And Lama Yeshe. Third, Lama Yeshe. DA:... a banquet of Dharma. Lama Yeshe as well. And then from this, more than you are saying forty-one geshes around the world and 161 centers, Wisdom, all these amazing activities came from this. So, Rinpoche, I was wondering, you have seen this growth from the very beginning until today and I was wondering how has it changed Dharma in the West from the early days in terms of the students, the facilities, the texts? How have you seen things change? LZR: From the old times? DA: From the old times, yeah. LZR: There has been... Even just lamrim, the graduated path to enlightenment, there has been more and more translations, more and more books available for Western students, and many, many books on philosophy. It has been great that there has been more and more. It is very good, that. Yes, we have... Yes, before the Masters Program, seven or eight years, and then the Basic Program, three years or five, so before starting them, many of our old centers had teachings besides the lamrim. Of course, lamrim is the main one, Lama Tsongkhapa s lamrim, but also Madhyamaka and Abhisamayalamkara, these things were taught in all the centers already before, but now there is the Masters Program, and the Basic Program is in every center. Like this, there is so much education in Dharma, Buddhadharma. It is not that with blind faith, you live your life with blind faith, kind of, if you are asked questions, you can t reply. Not like that. Now there is much more understanding of Buddhism, what Buddhism is, really. That has happened and so much is happening, but overall the most important, the most important, you see, the essence of 3

4 Buddhadharma is compassion. Compassion that not only wishes sentient beings, who are obscured and suffering, to be free from suffering, not only that, but you want to free, you want to help the sentient beings to be free from sufferings and the cause of sufferings. Overall, I think, as regards the FPMT students, overall as the years went through, I checked, so it looks like more compassion has developed among the people. More compassion, more understanding and more compassion, has developed. This is what I see. Yes, it went slowly, slowly. With much hardships the centers started and then gradually with more experience, more understanding of Dharma, more practice, meditation, then more compassion developed. That is what I see. In the middle it was experienced and developed. At the beginning, there were so much hardships. Young people came to Nepal and India. They took the courses on meditation. They got benefit so much to their minds, then they went back to spread the experience of meditation, the education, to their friends. Slowly the centers started like that. They started like that. So what I see Yeah. The centers started and then they invited geshes and translators, so many things. They didn t have experience in business. They had so many debts, a hundred thousand dollars of debts. With hardships they got started. Now I see, the conclusion I can t say I know the realizations of individuals, I can t. Of course there might be, but generally more compassion has been developed for sentient beings. I think that is... The essence of Buddhism is that to not harm others and to benefit sentient beings, taking that responsibility. For that, compassion is most important. So that is generally how I see it. DA: Rinpoche, what do you think are the main causes for this development of compassion in the students in the West? What are the main things that have contributed to this? LZR: I think more studying. More the study of Dharma, more the meditation on lamrim, more the study of Dharma, as well as philosophy, I think if you learn more, you see more how you are suffering in samsara. You have gone through the six-realm sufferings numberless times from beginningless rebirths, then you see, when you look at others, the numberless sentient beings, the suffering that they have been experiencing from beginningless rebirths, samsaric suffering, then you have compassion. The stronger renunciation you have of your samsara, aversion, then you feel stronger compassion for others. It is like that. Not only studying the suffering of the desire realm, not only that, then in the form realm the samsaric sufferings, then the formless realm. In the form realm there is no suffering of pain but the suffering of change. Then in the formless realm there is no suffering of change, but there is the pervasive compounding suffering, the third suffering. The third suffering, in the desire realm, form realm, and formless realm, you are not free from pervasive compounding suffering. That is why there is samsara. That is the sign. It is like that. Nowadays I heard many people, I heard from Spain There is one Swiss monk, Rene, who has been teaching Dharma, many people asked him, Don t talk about suffering. And even in the center in Washington, because, I think, our student who has been teaching Dharma may have been talking about suffering. For example, they themselves have gone through so many problems and maybe they don t hear much about how to get out of samsara, so I think maybe, I think they, so they don t like to hear about sufferings, so they said, Don t speak. But I think the important thing is like this. Bodhichitta is the root of the path to enlightenment. To actualize bodhichitta you have to have the basis, great compassion towards all sentient beings. To arise great compassion you have to understand the suffering of others in the desire realm, form realm, and formless realm. 4

5 You have to understand all the different sentient beings suffering. You have to understand that. To really feel that unbearable compassion to others, first you have to recognize, you have to understand, you have to see your own samsara. The more you understand it, the more you see that is the nature of suffering, oh, then you feel more compassion to others. Not really understanding why you have to know suffering well, yours and others, not understanding the point, so that also depends on the way of explaining. It is like that. Okay. DA: Rinpoche, so this development of compassion in Western students is closely related to their studies and understanding of the text LZR: Yes, yes. DA:... on suffering? LZR: Yes, yes. DA: And all types of suffering? LZR: Yes, yes. Right, right. DA: Then great compassion. LZR: Extensive: there is the suffering of pain, suffering of change, and pervasive compounding suffering, so you need to get the whole thing, the whole understanding, meditate. Not just an intellectual understanding, but meditation you need. DA: So, Rinpoche, the key one, I think, which is also the harder one to understand, is the duje kyi dugngal, the compounded, what do you say, the all-compounded suffering? LZR: Pervasive compounding suffering. DA: Pervasive compounding suffering. So could you talk a little bit about what this is? LZR: Pervasive, the meaning of pervasive is, as often His Holiness says, explains, the aggregates. We have at the moment the aggregates of form, feeling, cognition, and compounded aggregates, and then consciousness. So we have five at the moment; we are in the desire realm. They are under the control of delusion and karma. If we can be free, if we can make free ourselves from delusion and karma, then we will have no suffering, no reason to suffer. You have no reason to suffer. You are free forever. You have achieved the blissful state of peace, free forever. Of course, that is what is needed in the West, so much clinging. What happened? Wow, one day... That is what is needed, to achieve that, but, of course, they don t know; only those who learned Dharma. That is what is needed. Yeah. Because they are under the control of delusion and karma, so the aggregates are pervaded by suffering, pervaded by suffering. If you are free from delusion and karma, then no suffering. No suffering, one who has achieved the wisdom directly perceiving emptiness, who has achieved the first bhumi. That arya being does not experience the suffering of rebirth, the suffering of death, old age, sickness. They are totally free and that bodhisattva has a spiritual body, not a body like us, not a skeleton inside, flesh and blood, no a spiritual body. So anyway, pervasive, the meaning of pervasive is that. Why the body and mind are covered by suffering is by that being under the control of karma and delusion. Now, compounding suffering. Compounding : because these aggregates are the contaminated seed of delusion and karma, from the seed arises suffering, arises suffering, the suffering of this 5

6 life and the suffering of future lives. Then, also arises delusion from the seed. Oh, the compounding is that. The seed is contaminated, the seed of delusion and karma is contamatinated, these aggregates, so they compound sufferings. Then these aggregates are also caused by karma and delusions; sagche nyerlen gyi phungpo in Tibetan. Like that. Okay. That is the basis. This is the main thing that Buddhists have to become free from. The main one to have renunciation of is this one. If you become free from this, then you can become free from the suffering of pain and the suffering of change forever. That is nirvana. This is what people should do; their holiday or vacation should be this one. DA: I was wondering then what does Rinpoche think in terms of the main challenges for Dharma in the West? What are the main challenges for the flourishing of Dharma in the West? LZR: There may be general ones and particular ones according to individual people. According to individual people there are particular ones, and then maybe there are general ones. Of course, the general ones are, of course, the three poisonous minds, ignorance, anger, attachment, attachment to this life, worldy concern. That is general, of course. Also if very strong of that, then Dharma in the mind... Then, of course, your life goes under the worldly thought, rather than going under Dharma, going to Dharma. Even if you accept Dharma, but going toward Dharma is very weak, only sometimes and very weak. So strongly it goes under the worldly thought of attachment to this life, the eight worldly thoughts. That s in general. Then, of course, also maybe the life situation in the West, also could be the way the country is run, how the life is very expensive in the West, very, very expensive in the West. In a way in the East, it is more free; in the West, a very expensive life. I think, yeah, things like that. But mainly it is due to, mainly it comes from the mind. I think maybe that. As I mentioned, yeah, together, all these together, but mainly the mind. So it is up to the individual. Mainly it depends on individuality. It is in their hands. Freedom is in their hands. DA: So, Rinpoche, I had another question. I was thinking that originally in your last life you were a Nyingma practitioner but then in this life I was wondering how you became in Tsongkhapa s tradition? How did this happen? LZR: Oh, this is a dream. DA: A dream. LZR: Well, I don t remember my past life. I was... One very close student, who built a monastery in Maratika where Padmasambhava achieved Buddha Amitayus immortal life, Maratika where nectar comes from the cave... That is amazing, amazing. Bah, bah, bah. Even if you just come there, that even becomes a blessing, a great blessing. His Holiness Sakya Trizin Rinpoche said that just you arrive there, then your life obstacles get purified, just even arriving there. I went there a few times. It is an amazing holy place. So he built a monastery there. They sacrificed animals, the Hindus, inside the cave. Then later he did so much, then they don t have to sacrifice animals in the cave. Then His Holiness advised to keep clean, to keep the place clean. Anyways, the monastery. He passed away and then he reincarnated. He started Mindroling Monastery. I met him. His son is now looking after the monastery. He was... My past life, even though I don t remember, but many high lamas mentioned I was the incarnation of that. In the past life, I think I was called Lama Yeshe, I think. When he was passing away... There are twenty-five absorptions, the outer signs and inner signs. While it was happening, he was able to communicate with this 6

7 student. He was there for the retreat and initiation, to receive initiation from my past life. He asked questions about the absorbing elements and things. They had to talk, so he answered. Then after he passed away, the Lawudo Lama passed away, then he went to Tibet and several high lamas he asked them the question whether I was the incarnation of that or not. Several lamas promised, no, they did mo, observation, and they said, Yes, but you ask this lama. So it went several times like this. The last one, Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche, who is also my guru, I received many teachings, so Rinpoche said yes. So, like that. I don t remember in particular, but it seems he came from Tibet through Solu Khumbu it seems he was a Nyingma and Sakya with Diu Rinpoche, a great lama. He came from Tibet with him. But I don t remember my past life in particular. Many other incarnations remember, they remember. My root guru, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, His Holiness the Dalai Lama s younger tutor, before going to Ganden Monastery he can remember Ganden Monastery before he went there. So like that, for example, many incarnate lamas can remember, but I don t remember. It all depends on the level of the incarnation s level of the mind, how much realization and all that. But what I can say is when I try to meditate, little meditation, then the thoughts that come, then I am kind of surprised at the thoughts that come, and then I believe there is, from my side, experience, there is reincarnation, past lives. I did practice Dharma in the past life. Through the experience, through the meditation, that one is what I can say, but not like others. Not like that, okay. When I was a small child at Rolwaling... It is not my birth place but because I escaped a few times from my uncle, the monk who carved mantras on the rocks in the road... People, benefactors, asked him and then he carved them, so beautiful. Then when the people go, they circumambulate them on the road. I escaped. My home is near. It is down in the valley, so it was so easy to escape. I escaped a few times like that, so because in children time you only think of play. There is no reason, no logical reason, nothing like that; just only play, play. So my mother sent, very kindly sent me away. I think it was four or five hours, something around that, maybe after that or something. She sent me to Rolwaling. You have to cross huge snow mountains, bah, bah, bah. Great disaster, danger, bah, bah, bah, you have to cross. Normally it is three days in the snow. Rolwaling is a much hidden place, Padmasambhava s hidden place. The people are not so clever like those in Namche Bazaar, not clever, very, very primitive. I lived there for seven years. My other teacher, an uncle, was a fully ordained monk. What you hear about is Mindroling in Tibet, the main Nyingma monastery. I used to draw around the bed, my teacher s bed. I was staying with him, living with him. I drew, I made drawings about sitting on a throne, lamas sitting on a throne, like this I drew and I was thinking about going to Mindroling. I didn t have a thought about Gelugpa, nothing, just Mindroling. I was wishing to become a monk there. I have one uncle who became an Indian army[man] who was married with a Tsangpa wife in Phagri. They lived in Phagri. He invited us, uncles, my two uncles, teachers, alphabet teachers and myself. One day in Tibet on the walk... Only one day I was on a donkey. Somebody let me to ride on a donkey for several hours until we reached the house. Otherwise, every day we walked. We would eat on the road, make a fire and all that. So I arrived in Phagri. I was there a long time in Phagri with my uncle s wife. They had one child who became a monk. A branch of Tashi Lhunpo Monastery, he is from that. My teachers, two teachers, and the uncle in Tibet, they went to Lhasa to make pilgrimage. They didn t take me. My uncles didn t take me because they said, You will 7

8 die, it is so cold. I was in Phagri maybe three months, I m not sure. During that time There were many monasteries but one day my karma ripened. One tall monk came and he asked me, Do you want to be my disciple? He asked me and I said, Yes. Past karma ripened. Then he went inside and told the wife, my uncle s wife. Then the next morning... She is very good in cooking. The next morning she made Tibetan bread, very nice. A Bhutanese bamboo loma she filled up with a thermos of tea. She is fifteen minutes, I think, more or less to the temple there, where my teacher was, so she brought me there. That s it. Then, at eight o clock it was time for them to go to puja. Every day you have to go to do puja with the family members. They have their own benefactors. It is all fixed, tomorrow this, tomorrow that, tomorrow. It is all fixed. Sometimes there is only one-day break. I don t know how it happens, a one-day break. Then I had a very long day; it was very strange, kind of looking like that as usually I was very busy with pujas. At new year time maybe one or two days break. I knew many people in Phagri. They became benefactors, so I would go to pujas. I was not so much known as an incarnation. To my teacher I told a little bit of the stories of the past. Then my teachers my two alphabet teachers and my other uncle came back from Lhasa. They were thinking me to go back to Solu Khumbu, of course, as they were Nyingmapa. My uncle, the lay person, bought everything [to go] on the horse, what you put on the horse new robes, everything, all the brocade dongkas. All the things he bought for me to wear in Solu Khumbu. He piled them up in the chokang; the chokang is where the altar is. He piled them up. He said, If you are going back to Solu Khumbu with your teachers, the two alphabet teachers, You will receive all these. Otherwise, you won t get these. I said, Now I will stay. Then what happened is my teacher asked me... Sorry, it is becoming long. My teacher asked me whether I would go or not. We were together there in the kitchen. I said... I didn t say it, I wrote it with a burnt coal. I wrote on a paper, I won t go. Then my teacher beat me. He screwed my ear and blood came out. It came out. I realized that was nothing, that is very common. It was because they expected me to go but I was already in the temple. Then what happened? A courtcase happened. A courtcase happened. There is Pontusang and Santusang, two rich families in Tibet. Pontosang s secretary was there. They were benefactors of our temple, Dromo Geshe s benefactors, monastery benefactors. He said My teacher checked with him. My teacher from the temple, Dromo Geshe s monastery, checked with him. He said, Yes, he should go to Solu Khumbu back. He said. Then it went to the district dzongpon, the district leader. I was in my uncle s house, the lay uncle s, actually in the altar room. But at the door it was totally dark inside. The door was locked. There was a little hallway where people can pass candies or presents. Some daughters, some of the family s daughters, because of the benefactor went close. They passed to me, gave me, candies in a container. They passed them through there. They thought I was locked in prison. Anyway, it was dark. My teacher, alphabet teacher, and the teacher in Tibet went to the district leader, so there was a courtcase. Then, he said it is is up to me. So I was called to the district place, the leader s place. I was shaking it was so cold. Then he left it up to me, [he said] it is in my hands. Then my teacher followed me. My alphabet teacher, the second one, followed me. In the daytime we were going to do puja for one family, who now their daughter is in Bhutan married with a rich Bhutanese man. He had several daughters and a son. My teacher, the second alphabet teacher, came to watch how I was doing the pujas. We were doing puja. There was another monk that was doing puja and I 8

9 was playing the damaru and bell, but I was looking down through the window at all the busyness, the trade, the horses going to Lhasa and going to Shigatse. I was looking at that. My teacher, the alphabet teacher, was looking at us, watching us, how we were doing, how we were doing. He sat for several hours and then he left. Then, that is it. Then, that is it. I met him in Nepal the last time. When I came to Nepal, my mother and all her family came to do pilgrimage and to receive Kangyur lung from Dilgo Khentse Rinpoche, the very big lama, naked half [body], who gave blessings all day long. That was my last time seeing him. DA: How old were you, Rinpoche? LZR: That time? DA: How old, yeah? LZR: One thousand years old. DA: One thousand years old. Only? LZR: I think I don t remember. DA: Rinpoche, earlier on, when you were a child, you had a wish to go to Mindroling. LZR: Yes. DA: And then later you saw your karma change a little bit and there was a courtcase about whether you would go back to Solu Khumbu. LZR: Yes. Yes. It happened. No, a courtcase in Phagri, Tibet. Yes. DA: Dzongpon, is that like a governor? LZR: Yes, it is a governor. It was between my alphabet teacher and then my teacher from Tibet, Dromo Geshe s monastery. It was between them. DA: Dromo Geshe? LZR: Yes. Yes, it was between them. That is how... I think karma, my karma to be Gelugpa kind of happened like that, even though there were many monasteries there, but... You see, in Solu Khumbu you don t hear of the monasteries much, you hear only of Mindroling, so my wish was to be there, to be a monk. That is how I became a Gelugpa, yes. Very fortunate, yes. DA: it was in Tibet when you saw Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche? LZR: Not in Tibet, in Nepal. DA: Nepal. LZR: Yeah. DA: Then you studied with Geshe Rabten after this? LZR: In Buxa. DA: In Buxa. LZR: That was in Buxa. I met also Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and Kyabje Ling Rinpoche. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, I think maybe Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche? Kyabje Ling Rinpoche was there. He came to Buxa. 9

10 DA: Did you study in a Gelugpa monastery in Tibet? LZR: In Buxa. Buxa. Tibet, yes, where I became a monk, Dromo Geshe monastery, was Gelugpa. Yes, yes. DA: So then, Rinpoche, I was wondering maybe you could talk about the profound teachings of Tsongkhapa? What are some of the most profound perspectives of Tsongkhapa s teachings? LZR: From beginningless rebirths we have been circling in the six realms one after another, experiencing the oceans of each realm s suffering the human being, sura, asura, intermediate state, hell, hungry ghost, animal. From beginningless rebirths up to now, we are still not free from the oceans of samsaric sufferings and the cause, delusion and karma. The oceans of suffering of each realm and then the particular sufferings of each realm, all are rooted in the mind. They came from the mind. They came from one s own mind, negative mind, ignorance, anger, attachment. All came from the root, ignorance. The reality is, what the I is, is nothing more than what is merely imputed by the mind. It is nothing more than that. It focuses on the aggregates, the mind focuses on the aggregates, then that mind makes up the label I. It merely imputed I. That s it. It is nothing more than that. That is the reality, nothing more, nothing the slightest more than that. The slightest more than that is the refuting object of the Madhyamaka philosophy, the Madhyamaka school, not the Prasangika but the Svatantrika. No, I m sorry, not Ranggyupa [Svatantrika] but Thalgyurpa, Prasangika, the Prasangika school s object to be refuted, gagja. So the slightest more than that, the slightest more than that, is the gagja. That is the unmistaken gagja, the refuting object of the Prasangika, Madhyamaka Prasangika. The first second is that; the first second the I is just merely imputed by the mind. That s it, nothing else. Nothing else is real. That is what exists, the I that exists. It exists most subtle, most. What it is is most subtle, so fine. It is like... For us it is like it doesn t exist. It is like it doesn t exist. The I for The next second it appears, the next second it appears real from there, oh, real from there. Totally different from what exists that of the first second. The next second it is real from there, not merely labeled by the mind, something slightly more than that, the Prasangika s object to be refuted. Then, not only that, Ranggyupa nothing came from the mind. It just really truly exists from there; nothing came from the mind. Then there is Semtsampa, Mind-Only School, then Vasubandhu, the Sautrantika. Very gross, it kind of goes down: permanent, existing alone, existing with its own freedom, all these, all the wrong views, when you look at the I. The second, next second, it is totally false. That is a projection... Ignorance left, from beginningless lives ignorance was generated, so it left an imprint, a negative imprint on the mind, the mental continuum, so it projects. A merely labeled I, then after it merely labeled I, then it projects, decorates, true existence. It decorates true existence, then it appears truly existent. It decorates true existence like you put a film in the machine and then it projects on the screen, like this, similar, the imprint projects true existence. It made it real, like that. So it came from ignorance. Now that, that is... Then like that, the I, it is just I, but mind, I mean body, forms, sounds, smells, tastes, everything, the whole world, [it makes] everything appear in that way totally false, completely false, exactly like a dream, like an illusion, there are many examples, a mirage. So everything is totally false, including the I. Now, now on top of that, on top of that then you totally entrust, your ignorance totally trusts in that real I that appeared as TRUE! It totally entrusts. So all problems, you can even think global 10

11 problems, even the present-day global problems, the ice melting and destroying, the tsunamis, all the dangers of fire and water, everything came from that, came from the mind, so from ignorance. All your problems, all came from that, [including] depression. Everything, millions and millions, came from that, so now... So this, entrusting in that. You can t see it. You can t do operation. It is not physical. It is formless, it is mind. You can t see it. You can t touch it. You can t see it; it is formless, colorless. But just a concept creates all the suffering, the six-realm sufferings, wow, wow, wow. Anyway, you see, now, so far we have been suffering, so now if you don t realize emptiness, the Prasangika s view, especially Prasangika s view... The four schools happened during the Buddha s time. We don t realize the false I, realize it is empty, realize it is empty, that it is not there, so you hold the I like this from beginningless rebirths, Oh, there is an I to hold on to. But when you realize emptiness it is not that I have realized emptiness but I pray to realize emptiness what happens is that suddenly you discover that it is not there. It doesn t go through the window, door, or chimney; it is not like that. Suddenly you realize it is not there. That destroys this hallucination. It is not there. You realize it is not there at all, that there is nothing to hold on to. It seems that That is the first. Then through that, then you realize how the I exists. If you realize emptiness unmistakenly, you realize that the refuting object is false, the real I, something more than what is merely labeled by the mind, then you realize emptiness. Then through that... That is the cause and then as a result [you realize] how the I, that the I exists, that the I definitely exists, it exists but in mere name. It exists but in mere name. Oh-hoh, then you actualize the kundzob denpa. The dondam denpa you realized before, the absolute truth, then [you realize] the conventional truth, the truth for the all-obscuring mind, you realize how the I exists. It is so powerful how the I exists the I exists in mere name. In the Prasangika... In the Svatantrika, I think you realize there s no I from the aggregates. There s no I from the aggregates at all, but there is an I on the aggregates; you see that. You see I on the aggregates and that the I uncontrollably exists under the control of name. Uncontrollably the I exists. Like that, that I think is the Svatantrika. You see there is no I from the aggregates, but there is I on top. Still you see the real I on the aggregates. So now what is left is to see that real I on the aggregates is not there. Still there is one I appearing, the I, real I oh, it is not there. Ohhoh, when you see that the real I is not the aggregates, not on the aggregates, oh, then at that time you realize the Prasangika s view. Oh, like that. Entrusting in that, This is real, true, we create the cause of samsara. You create the root cause of your samsara, the ignorance, when you entrust in that, the real I. That is ignorance; you are creating ignorance. Now, therefore, to eliminate, to eliminate, to be free from samsara, the oceans of suffering of the six realms, then you need to eliminate this ignorance, this superstition mind. You need to eliminate this. This concept, this subtle thing, eliminate. To eliminate it, you need to realize how what you have been believing the I appearing from there is totally false; it is not there. Once you recognize it is false, it is just a minute, whether you think of dependent arising or not, it is just a minute to realize it is false, it does not exist, it cannot exist by itself, it cannot exist, so you see emptiness. I think if you have so strong guru devotion that the guru is a buddha, the one who you made a Dharma connection with, so strong; then positive imprints from past life meditating on emptiness; and at the same time there happens continual great collect merits and strong purification, at the 11

12 same time that happens, then this happens. Then, even if you think you may not get a realization for so many years, but then suddenly it happens. That is due to the guru s blessings. That it depends on the guru s blessings is not just blind faith, it is scientific. It is like a clock or TV, how everything is arranged, depending on each other, everything, it works. Similar here, now, the realization also how it depends on, so much depends on the guru, strong guru devotion receiving blessings from the guru. That is all. Everything you can see is like scientific, very logical. Oh-hoh, so now you need to realize the Prasangika s view, the unmistaken emptiness. For many great meditators, it is so easy to slip into nihilism. Even if they talk about emptiness but it is so easy to fall into nihilism, either eternalism or nihilism. It is so difficult the middle way: Whatever is a dependent arising then that is explained as empty, that is labeled by the mind, then that is the middle way. Then, you don t realize the middle-way view, you slipped into nihilism. It is so fine. Then also, Whatever is a dependent arising is empty. Whatever is empty is a dependent arising, in the Root Wisdom by Nagarjuna. I m very fortunate. That is a very, very subtle point. Why I exists in mere name is because there are the valid aggregates, they exist. That also exists in mere name. So everything follows like that. That is extremely, extremely, extremely fine, difficult, extremely fine. Then, the other thing is zhi-ne. Attachment scattering thought has gross and subtle. Sinking thought has gross and subtle sinking thought. Then also for great meditators it is difficult, subtle sinking thought is difficult to recognize. Many great meditators think it is perfect meditation, shamatha, but Lama Tsongkhapa clarified that. Then also the tantric, how to achieve the illusory body, clear light and illusory body, the cause of the dharmakaya and rupakaya. Illusory body: before there was an explanation how to achieve what is the illusory body, but it was small, so Lama Tsongkhapa elaborated on that. When Lama Yeshe was asking questions to Kyabje Serkong Tsenshab Rinpoche... Lama Yeshe had experienced the clear light and illusory body. He was asking questions to His Holiness Serkong Tsenshab Rinpoche, who was His Holiness the Dalai Lama s guru, in India. Before in Tibet he was the tsenshab. Tsenshab means not an actual guru, but helping in the education. He asked him questions on these things. Lama Tsongkhapa elaborated very much on these. So these I think, of course I didn t get to study well all the teachings but this it seems, yes, it is incredible. Like that. Daniel: Thank you, Rinpoche. Do you have any parting words of advice for our listeners? Anything else you would like to share with them? LZR: Okay. There is one question you haven t asked how long Buddhism can last in the West? DA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, thank you. LZR: You see, Buddhism is, yes, much studied intellectually, much studied. Yes, of course, it depends first on that. Similar happened in Tibet, in India, Nalanda, all that thing; after the Buddha gave teachings, the pandits gave commentaries. Yes. Yes, but that is like tsampa; if you throw it on an ocean or river, it stays. It doesn t go inside, it stays on top. It stays just on the top, it doesn t go inside. Oh, it like that. Now, you see, really deep down, Buddhism to go deep down, you need realization, you need to practice, realization, not just study words, words collecting, just like collecting information in a computer. A computer can hold unbelievable, a whole library, bah, bah, bah. So, not just that. Yes, practice. Through practice, realization. 12

13 In India, there are many caves, many places, of those who achieved realizations, even the Buddha. In Tibet, so many caves, so many hermitages, so many did meditation and actualized. In Tibet and Nepal, even just Milarepa, so many caves where he achieved this realization, where he achieved that realization. You need that, you need realization. You need realization deep down. Buddhism not just on the surface, not just like tsampa on the water, not just that. You need to actualize the words, the meaning of the words, in the mind oh, realization. Oh, you need like that, like Milarepa, many Tibetan caves where he achieved realization. Oh, you need to do like that, actualize the whole path to enlightenment. Oh, like that, then Buddhism is very dear. Then it can last a long time, be very strong, like in Nepal and Tibet. If like that happens in the West, then Buddhism can be not just the mouth or the brain, not just the head, but deep down. For Buddhism to really exist in the West and to live long, then we need like that, like in Nepal and Tibet the many different holy places where the great yogis achieved realizations. Ordained now, ordained. So that is the practice; that comes first. Just studying words, no. Buddhism, if it is only studying, if it is only just mere study, then... Yes, you need that, of course; that is what His Holiness often emphasizes. But that is not enough. You need to transform your mind. You need to really actualize; what is said in the books to have in your heart. Oh, that you need. Then, Buddhism can last a long time, really deep. Therefore, now, in the FPMT the education is going very well, but now I think the realizations. So I thought to build a few houses to do lifetime retreat actualizing the lamrim in Washington, or for each center to have its retreat houses where people can do deity retreat or whatever retreat. I think to practice what you learned is so important, really to actualize the path. That is what you need to put effort into to actualize the path. Even just the lamrim, renunciation, guru devotion, correctly following the virtuous friend, renunciation, bodhichitta, right view, even just that, bah, bah, bah. If one person actualizes that, one person generates bodhichitta, wow, it blesses the world, bah, bah, bah. It is of great benefit to sentient beings. I m thinking, yes, to invite one lama. One monk, from Sera went there, Sera Mey, went to Litang in Tibet to meditate. His Holiness sent him. He gave teachings for two months on bodhichitta and zhi-ne, calm abiding. Then, two people, not necessarily monks, two people achieved zhi-ne, calm abiding, in the two months, during the two months, during his teachings. He is so wise in guiding meditation. I was thinking to invite him to guide meditation. Anyway, he didn t want to come. He didn t want to waste his time. He still exists. So I m hoping. I talked to him but I didn t get to go to Tibet yet. I m putting, trying to put, more effort into the practice to have realizations. DA: Rinpoche, so there are lots of opportunities to study Dharma but we need more practice? LZR: Yes, yes. Yes, study alone, just listening to words alone without practice, you can t make Buddhism strong. DA: What about, Rinpoche, for people who work every day how can they balance studying and practicing? Do you have recommendations for how to spend time on either one? LZR: Yes. I think lamrim from beginning to end they should study well. Maybe two or three times study well, whichever lamrim book, Lama Tsongkhapa s great or middle lamrim, or Refined Gold, or the short Liberation in the Palm by Kyabje Phabongkha Dechen Nyingpo, whatever. Then what you do is in the morning, in the mornings or in the evenings, or in the mornings, one hour or, if not, even half an hour, or even fifteen minutes, whatever, you must read the lamrim. You must. 13

14 The first meditation, correctly following the virtuous friend, you do that for six months or one year. You got that outline, you go through it, repeat the outline to actualize, not only to understand it but to actualize it. Go through that for six months or one year. Then another year or six months on renunciation, all that. Meditate on the outlines of that. Then on bodhichitta six months or one year, then emptiness. You do that. If you need to do more, you can do that two or three times. You can do more. Like that, you can do two more times or whatever, according to your needs. Then you do That is effortful meditation on the lamrim, then the other is effortless. Until you get a realization of guru devotion, correctly devoting to the virtuous friend, then no matter how long months and years it takes, you do on that. You can do not only one; you can do, if you can, two meditations a day. You can do. Then, renunciation. After the renunciation realization, then you can do bodhichitta, then emptiness effortless meditation. After you actualize bodhichitta, then you put more effort into the tantric generation stage. The completion stage, going through the words, that every day should be done going through the words to leave a positive imprint to actualize the whole path. Then, more on the generation stage. When you have more experience of the gross generation stage and subtle generation stage, then do more completion stage. Like that you need to practice. It is so important. Somebody who can should study philosophy, extensive, extensive, as His Holiness says, like that on the basis of lamrim. Then somebody of middle intelligence, middle way learning. Then somebody of lower intelligence, then just lamrim. Then, through that, your own deity, the tantric two stages, generation stage and completion stage, of your own deity. You try to achieve enlightenment through that. In the past the Kadampa geshes happened. From Kadampa Geshe Potowa, the extensive scriptures. Then the Lamrimpas studied lamrim, not the extensive scriptures. If you can t study the extensive scriptures, lamrim just study and achieve enlightenment. The first one through studying the extensive scriptures then achieve enlightenment. The second one is lamrim. The third one, then even lower intelligence, get instructions from the guru, then you try to actualize, practice and actualize, then achieve enlightenment. So similar happened in the past the Kadampa geshes, the three groups happened; it is similar nowadays also. Those who can [should study] extensive philosophy, then achieve enlightenment through the practice. They put into practice the lamrim, then achieve enlightenment. Then the middle one is just lamrim; try to learn it well, then practice it, then achieve enlightenment. Then the lower intelligent ones, the guru s instructions you learn, then through that, by practicing, then you achieve enlightenment. My advice to everyone, the most important, is bodhichitta, ultimate good heart to practice bodhichitta in general and especially ultimate bodhichitta. You live the life, whatever you are doing, you do it for, dedicate it for, sentient beings. As much as possible eating, walking, sitting, sleeping, doing your job, everything, even sleeping, everything, dedicate it for sentient beings. With a bodhichitta motivation is the main thing, your main refuge. A busy life, then your main refuge is bodhichitta for all sentient beings, to benefit all sentient beings, to free them from the oceans of samsaric sufferings and bring them to enlightenment. Then, you are living your life the healthiest life, and mentally the healthiest mind. Then, through that, a healthy body comes. Then, even cancer or whatever it is can go away. It is very powerful, then most beneficial for every sentient being, every single insect, every single being, bah, bah, bah. The happiest life. That is the happiest life. I think that s all. 14

15 DA: Thank you so much. Rinpoche, thank you so much. It is such an honor for us for you to come on the Wisdom podcast. Thank you so much. LZR: Thank you. Thank you. 15