DEPOSITION OF: JASON C. COWART

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1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE FOURTH JUDICIL CIRCUIT, IN ND FOR DUVL COUNTY, FLORID. CSE NO.: -C- DIVISION: CV-H WLTER HMMOND, an individual, vs. Plaintiff, LBERT J. RUSSELL LODGE NO. FREE ND CCEPTED MSONS OF FLORID, a non-profit corporation, and THE MOST WORSHIPFUL GRND LODGE OF FREE ND CCEPTED MSONS OF FLORID, a not-for-profit corporation, Defendants. / DEPOSITION OF: JSON C. COWRT Taken on behalf of the Plaintiff DTE TKEN: Tuesday, February, 0 TIME: :0 M - :0 M PLCE: Law Office of Kevin S. Sanders Willow Branch venue Jacksonville, Florida 0 Examination of the witness taken before: Laurie J. Miller, Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large VERBTIM REPORTING SERVICES, INC. Jacksonville, Florida (0)-0

2 P P E R N C E S KEVIN S. SNDERS, ESUIRE, Kevin S. Sanders, P.. Willow Branch venue Jacksonville, Florida 0 ksslaw@comcast.net ppearing on behalf of the Plaintiff. WILLIM M. DOUBERLEY, ESUIRE, Douberley, McGuinness & Cicero 00 Sawgrass Corporate Parkway Suite 0 Sunrise, Florida wdouberley@dmc-atty.com ppearing on behalf of the Defendants. LSO PRESENT: Walter M. Hammond and Richard E. Lynn

3 I N D E X WITNESS PGE JSON C. COWRT Direct Examination by Mr. Sanders E X H I B I T S NUMBER PGE Plaintiff's Exhibit No. for identification Plaintiff's Exhibit Nos. and for identification.. Plaintiff's Exhibit Nos. and for identification C E R T I F I E D U E S T I O N NUMBER PGE Certified uestion No

4 0 JSON C. COWRT, having been produced and first duly sworn on behalf of the Plaintiff, then testified as follows: THE WITNESS: I do. MR. SNDERS: I've moved to have Mr. Lynn, whose deposition is scheduled for this afternoon, at :0, removed from the room, so that I don't have to worry about influence of Mr. Cowart. Counsel has refused to do that. Is that correct, Counsel? MR. DOUBERLEY: Correct. He represents the party. MR. SNDERS: Okay. I'll place this injection into the record: I'll be moving for such in front of the Court. I'll also be moving for sanctions in front of the Court on this matter. MR. DOUBERLEY: Of course. That's your middle name, "Sanctions." MR. SNDERS: You are getting all that? DIRECT EXMINTION BY MR. SNDERS: If you could, state your full and complete name for the benefit of the Court. Jason Clark Cowart. nd Clark, C-L--R-K?

5 Correct; no "E." Okay. nd what's your current address? 0 Spring Park Circle, Jax, Florida, 0. 0 areas. How long have you lived there? Thirteen, fourteen years, at this point. re you employed? Self. What do you do? ppliance repair. nd how long have you been self-employed? bout ten years. Did you do anything before that? Yes. What was that? utomobile technician, and management in other Okay. Do you know why you're here today? I think so. Why do you think you're here today? In reference to a phone call dealing with lbert J. Russell. about it. How did you prepare for today's deposition? Just thought about what had happened. That's nd did you meet with anybody and discuss any of

6 the situation with anybody? The only conversations I had were really, "What's this going to be about?" nd they said, "It should only be about this." today? nd who said that? Richard Lynn. So you had a meeting with Richard Lynn before Yes. nd when was that? We spoke about it -- I'm trying to think -- talked to him; he said that you -- that I was probably -- that I was going to get deposed and that I should look for a summons, which I never got, by the way. nd I asked what would it be about, and he said it was about the phone call from the Grand Master at the time, to yourself, about Walter Hammond going to lbert J. Russell. 0 Master? So you had a phone conversation with the Grand Uh-huh. Which Grand Master was that? James Ford. How did that phone conversation come about? What do you mean, "come about"?

7 What prompted a telephone conversation with James Ford about lbert J. Russell Lodge? I would say the Grand Master would be the one to ask on that one, at the time, but the conversation was -- the time? Well, let me stop you right there. Okay. Did you call him, or did he call you? He called me. Okay. So -- and it was just out of the blue? Yes. nd he was the current sitting Grand Master at Yes. Were you expecting a phone call from him or -- 0 month? No. Do you recall approximately a date, somewhere, a Honestly, I do not. I can give you a reference. Sure. The reference would probably be within a few weeks after Walt Hammond attended a meeting at lbert J. Russell. But as far as a specific date, no. So you weren't expecting a phone call, but he just called you out of the blue; is that correct?

8 Yes. Okay. So he calls you, and what does he say to you? He asked me to go to the next meeting of lbert J. Russell and that, if Walt Hammond showed up to attend the meeting, to inform him that he was not allowed to sit in the meeting. meeting? Did he say why he wasn't allowed to sit in the Let me think. Honestly, it was only about a five- or six-minute conversation. nything I -- anything I would say would be guessing, because I honestly don't remember the exact conversation. I can tell you exactly, you know, what it was, that he told me to do that. nd I don't remember if I said, "Why?" or I just said, "Yes, sir," or whatnot, because it was in the middle of my workday. 0 told. Did you ask him by what authority? Honestly, he's the Grand Master. I do what I'm So you didn't bother to ask by what authority he had to keep Walter Hammond out of the meeting? I don't believe so. (Mr. Hammond entering deposition.) (Discussion off the record.)

9 BY MR. SNDERS: Okay. So the then sitting Grand Master Ford called you out of the blue and says, "There's a situation at lbert J. Russell Lodge," or how did he describe what was going on, that he decided to tell you to go to the meeting and instruct them not to allow Walter to come into the business meeting? To the best of my recollection, I was told that he attended a meeting, and he was not allowed to go into those meetings and that, if I would please go to the next one; and, if he arrived, to inform him that he was not allowed to sit in the meeting. nd if Walter Hammond would have asked you, by what authority in the Digest did you have the right to tell him that he can't come into a business meeting of the Lodge that he belongs to, what would you have said? I would have respectfully, as always, said that I'm acting on the authority of the Grand Master. Okay. Do you know that -- of anything that the 0 Grand Master has authority to refuse a member of a Lodge to participate in a business meeting? To my understanding of this whole situation, he was not a member. Okay. nd how did you obtain the understanding that he is not a member of lbert J. Russell Lodge?

10 Because of the letter that you sent to me. Okay. What letter did I send to you to make -- It was the letter from Grand Master Ford that said he was a Mason in good standing in the State of Florida, and that letter was for petitioning a Lodge for membership. Now, I do not have that letter in front of me, so I doubt that I am quoting it. letter? Did you ever -- so I sent you a copy of the Yes, you did. Okay. Did that letter, to the best of your knowledge -- and I will get a copy of it. Uh-huh. Did the letter, to the best of your knowledge, say he had to petition a Lodge? No. gain, I am saying exactly what I remember. ll right. In fact, that's a true statement: He 0 wasn't required to petition any Lodge, but he could petition a Lodge, if he wanted to, right? I don't know. MR. SNDERS: Let's take a break for a second. I wasn't expecting to get to this, but let's get a copy of that letter. (Off the record.)

11 BY MR. SNDERS: Is this the letter that you're talking about? (Witness perusing document.) No, this is not. That's not the letter? Nope. This is the more -- that's the more recent one. BY MR. SNDERS: MR. SNDERS: Okay. I'll get that one. (Off the record.) Is that it? (Witness perusing document.) Let's see here. Yes. Okay. nd who is that signed by? James Ford. nd is it signed by anybody else? Richard Lynn. nd what was your understanding of how that letter came into being? 0 I'm thinking, trying to remember the conversation. Not a problem. I do know that there's several lawsuits that have been going on, and this was, I guess, one of -- the outcome of one of those.

12 Okay. I'll just suggest to you -- do you know if this was the result of a mediation to attempt to settle the case with Walter Hammond, between Grand Lodge and Walter Hammond? Yes. You told me that. nd it does say "affiliation," not "membership," so, again, I'm trying to remember. So what's the difference between "membership" and "affiliation," to the best of your recollection or knowledge? This, to the best of my knowledge, means that, under Masonic law, it is like if a member dimits from a Lodge immediately, which means he withdraws his membership. Until the end of that year, he is still a Mason, but he does not belong to a Lodge; so, to be able to attend a Lodge meeting, he must affiliate with a Lodge, which means he really cannot sit in a Lodge meeting if he is a floating member, I guess. Do you know of any circumstances in which Walter 0 Hammond was ever removed or dimitted from lbert J. Russell Lodge? I do not. If he never dimitted or was removed from lbert J. Russell Lodge, he's still a member of lbert J. Russell Lodge; wouldn't he be?

13 He was expelled from the fraternity by an act of Grand Lodge. Do not know -- I don't know the particulars of how that works at the Lodge level. Okay. You used a term, "expelled." I'm sorry. Not expelled; indefinitely suspended. Okay. Because I was at a meeting. To be suspended from something, you'd have to be a member to be suspended. Does that seem logical? Obviously, yes. Okay. So, if he was a member of lbert J. Russell Lodge, and he was only suspended, why are you under the impression that he lost his membership in lbert J. Russell? lbert J. Russell operates out of the Grand Lodge 0 of Florida. nd how did the Grand Lodge remove lbert J. Russell from -- I mean Walter Hammond from lbert J. Russell's membership? gain, you're going -- honestly, you're going past my knowledge of how that works. Okay. Do you know, have you heard, have you spoken with anybody, have you been told that the Grand Lodge expelled or otherwise terminated Walter Hammond's

14 membership? No; just the suspension. Okay. nd were you told or does this letter reference that that suspension was lifted, and he was made a Mason in good standing? The only thing that would tell me otherwise is the word "affiliation," which would reference me back to what I said before. Okay. How many different forms of affiliation are there, that you know of as a former District Deputy Grand Master? I guess there would be two, off the top of my head, maybe -- maybe three. nd what would those be? ffiliation would be, again, if you would -- if you dimitted from a Lodge -- nd we know that didn't happen in this case. -- if you -- okay, I would think if you're coming 0 from out of jurisdiction, from another state, I believe. nd I'm not sure of any other ones. I would just be guessing. I'm not that well versed on it. I'd have to go look them up. Okay. But, to your knowledge, there's been no removal of Walter Hammond from lbert J. Russell's membership?

15 Lodge. Other than the indefinite suspension by Grand nd do you even know if the indefinite suspension was lifted by Grand Lodge? Were you ever informed of that? No. Okay. I -- that letter, right there in front of me, is what we know, is what I know. Can you affiliate with another Lodge while belonging to another Lodge? I don't know. Honestly, I'd have to go and look at these things. Took me -- I couldn't figure out plural and dual for years; still can't. Is plural or dual membership considered an affiliation? No. I was using that as an example. Okay. So Most Worshipful Ford was the one who signed this letter? 0 Uh-huh. nd he was the one that called you and told you that Walter Hammond could not attend lbert J. Russell Lodge? Yes. Okay. But he didn't tell you why or how? Correct.

16 So you were given your marching orders, and you just went along with whatever he said, because he was the Grand Master? Correct. Okay. So what did you do, based on this conversation with Most Worshipful Ford? I contacted -- I was planning on going to the next meeting. nd I do not remember what I had going on that week or weekend, whether -- I was going out of town for something; I had something I was preparing for. So what I did was I called Freddie Velasco at lbert J. Russell and asked him that, if Walter showed up, to please call me, because I was only about ten minutes away -- I don't live far -- and that I would come over and speak with him. Other than that, I did not go to the meeting, and Walt did not show up. Do you know if Walter ever did show up at lbert J. Russell Lodge? 0 I would assume so because of the telephone call. But you weren't called over by Freddie or by the Worshipful Master? No. Do you know what happened over there when Walter showed up? t the previous meeting, no.

17 Well, when you're saying "the previous meeting," which meeting are you talking about? The one that I assume he came to. Oh, okay. So he came to a meeting, he sat in the meeting, actually balloted -- Okay. -- and you were told that that was wrong, by Most Worshipful Ford? Which part? You said two things. The balloting or the meeting? Both. I was told he was not allowed to sit in the meeting because he was not a member. Okay. Do you know of any ramifications that were taken against lbert J. Russell Lodge for allowing Walter to attend the meeting? No. Did Most Worshipful Ford tell you that he was 0 going to pull their charter or punish them? I was not told anything, other than not -- you know, to attend and, if he showed up, tell him he couldn't go. Why did he call you, instead of just calling lbert J. Russell Lodge, itself?

18 I was the District Deputy Grand Master at the time. I represented the Grand Master in the th District. nd as the District Deputy Grand Master, other than just -- and please excuse the way I phrase this -- Uh-huh. -- but, other than just blindly following what the Grand Master tells you to do, you did no independent research on this, at all? Other than the knowledge of -- the previous knowledge that I had, which was this letter, and that's about it. Okay. Did you interpret this letter for Freddie Velasco, or -- No. Okay. Did the Grand Master interpret this letter for you? Did he say that affiliation doesn't mean that he can come in? This is completely different than the -- that 0 situation. This was -- none of this was brought up. The only time this letter came into play was when you contacted me about asking him -- about asking me; I'm sorry -- if Walt could join Barnett, and then you ed me this letter. ll right. So you didn't even have this letter at the time that you spoke with Most Worshipful Ford?

19 I'd have to go -- no, I -- if I did, it was at Barnett, because I printed it out. I don't remember -- March rd? This was entered on March rd, 0. Honestly, I do not remember the dates. But you said it was sometime after Walter Hammond had gone to lbert J. Russell Lodge the first time? Right. That's the only reference I can give you. I don't remember the date. So, if you know that date, it's going to be, I would probably say, within a couple of weeks after that. Did Grand Master Ford say how he found out about the business meeting or why he was making that decision? No, sir. Did he explain to you that he was at a mediation with Walter Hammond and that the case had been settled, but that didn't allow him to attend Lodge? No. The only conversation I had with the Grand Master 0 about this is what I told you before. It was a very -- honestly, it was a very short conversation. I was in the middle of my workday, and he called me, and I said, "Okay, sir. Well, I've got to go. I'm getting ready to walk into somebody's home." MR. SNDERS: We'll go ahead and make that

20 0 Exhibit. That would be, just for identification purposes, the copy of the letter of March rd, 0, which is the letter of good standing for Walter Hammond, signed by James Ford and Richard Lynn. (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. was marked for identification.) BY MR. SNDERS: Did you get a copy of your Notice of Deposition? Yes, because I was asked, had I gotten one yet. Did you bring any documents with you? I don't really have any. Well, this -- The only thing I would have would be that. I have an ed copy of that (indicating), to show me what and when and everything, because I did not receive one in the mail. So you don't have anything in your possession 0 with regards to anything in writing regarding lbert J. Russell Lodge or decisions made by Most Worshipful Ford? No. The only thing I would have would be -- well, the stuff you sent me, actually, and some s concerning that. Did you bring them with you today? No. I can print them out for you and get them back to you.

21 Okay. Well, the purpose was for you to bring them with you today, so I could ask you questions on them. Well, honestly, I can show them to you, if you'd like me to. On your phone? Yeah. I know you can't enter that in, but all it was was concerning that, that, you know, you will -- you're going to be deposed; what dates are you available? nd I responded, I am free -- everything but these dates. Okay. Okay? So you're just talking about the only thing you had in your possession with regards to this is the actual Notice of Deposition? Correct. I don't have anything else, sir. Okay. nd No. asks for any and all documents in your possession regarding Walter Hammond. Do you have anything in your possession; any notes, any letters, s, or anything like that? 0 The only thing I would have would not be in my possession; it would be in the possession of Barnett Lodge, which would be correspondence from you, concerning the -- this, when he submitted the initial petition. To your knowledge, has that initial petition been balloted on yet?

22 Yes. Well, the initial petition was changed to a different form. It was resubmitted. It was brought to us by Hansford Joiner and was balloted on at the last meeting. then? So the initial petition hasn't been balloted on, It was rejected. It was the wrong petition. nd when was it rejected, and by what official rejection notice was it rejected? I would have to get that information for you, on the -- as far as the date. But I believe I contacted you, because we discussed which petition would be best to fill out. nd I suggested one, and you suggested, no, it's this one. nd that was not correct, because I believe the one you suggested, after I -- let's see -- I confirmed it -- I'm trying to remember, Kevin. I honestly don't. Because we talked on the phone about it, and it was -- I sent you -- I think I sent you all the petitions and let you figure out which one you wanted to submit, honestly. 0 Well, I'm trying to figure out at what point in time and by who the initial petition was rejected. Uh-huh. I don't think it was rejected. I think we said this is not the proper petition. I won't -- "rejected" is a wrong word. Rejected would mean it went before the

23 ballot. It did not. Okay. So it hasn't been balloted on yet? That one? No, it was not the correct petition. nd who made that decision? Honestly, it was either Grand Master Ford or Richard Lynn. Okay. nd Grand Master Ford and Richard Lynn are the two signing this document, establishing him in good standing, and they were -- is that correct? Correct; for purpose of affiliation. nd, to your knowledge, do you know that Grand Master Ford and Richard Lynn were the two that were negotiating a settlement of the case to return Walter Hammond back to good standing? I don't know the particulars, but I would assume, since he is the Grand Master at the time, and he is the Grand Secretary, that they would be involved in something. So the two people that negotiated this were the 0 ones telling you or somebody at Barnett Lodge that the petition was wrong? I just said I don't know if they were directly involved. I'm saying I'm assuming, since they're the Grand Master, and he's the Grand Secretary, that they would be involved. Okay. So when you said that the original

24 petition, or the initial petition was rejected, is that a correct -- I changed that. Not rejected. It was just the wrong format. It was the wrong type of petition. s you know, we have several different types of petitions. We have a new, never been a Mason; you have an out of jurisdiction -- I forget what the name of that one is -- a transfer of membership -- what are the other ones? -- a petition for reinstatement. So we have several; and, like I said, I sent those to you. nd I do appreciate you doing that. Not a problem. But I'm trying to stick to the facts. Uh-huh. You made a statement that it was rejected. Now you're saying it wasn't rejected; it was the wrong type of petition. Correct. Do you recall particularly who told you it was 0 the wrong type of petition? No. I just said it was either Grand Master Ford or Richard Lynn. nd so that petition still sits at Barnett Lodge, just unacted on? It may have been destroyed. It may have been

25 shredded. I don't know. I'm not the secretary. But it was the wrong petition. It was -- What was wrong about it? Didn't I answer that? Because the petition I believe you sent me, signed by Walt, was a transfer of membership, not an affiliation. nd why would a transfer of membership form be the wrong form? Because he was not a member -- is not a member of lbert J. Russell. nd what makes you say that he is or was not a member of lbert J. Russell? He was never reinstated, to the best of my -- or, best of my knowledge, he was suspended indefinitely from Grand Lodge. 0 that. nd they lifted that suspension? I do not know. I do not know the particulars of Okay. If somebody is a -- the only way somebody could be suspended from membership is if they're a member, right? Yes. We already clarified that. Let's follow some logic here. nd if the suspension has been lifted, you're

26 still a member; is that correct? No. nd why not? If you are suspended, you must be voted on to be reinstated. Don't the rules -- I am not familiar with Grand Lodge -- not familiar enough with the way Grand Lodge suspensions act to answer that appropriately, as far as concerning a Grand Lodge suspension. nd that's what my main point was going to be, that the rule that you were citing is only when a Lodge, itself, suspends its member, right? I would assume so. Okay. nd that section of the Digest basically says that, if a member is suspended, that person can appeal to Grand Lodge; correct? 0 I don't know. Okay. Honestly, I don't know. Okay. Let's say that it does, and let's say that the Grand Lodge accepts the appeal and overturns the suspension. In that case, a suspended Brother from a Lodge, suspended by the Lodge, cannot be put back into that Lodge.

27 That's the rule that you're quoting it, isn't it? Say that one more time. I said, if a Lodge, itself, suspends a member -- Okay. -- and the Grand Lodge intervenes, either through appeal or otherwise -- Okay. -- and they -- they lift the suspension and reinstate the Brother, the only rule states that he cannot be forced back into that Lodge without a ballot; correct? I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. Okay. So you don't know that that's the rule and that's the requirement? Correct. Okay. But, in this case, Walter wasn't suspended by lbert J. Russell Lodge, was he? I don't know. It's not my Lodge. Okay. Well, the action of suspension was at Grand Lodge; was it not? Do you know that? 0 Yes. Okay. Do you know of any trial that was had at lbert J. Russell Lodge, where it ended up suspending Walter Hammond? Not to the best of my ability, but lbert J. Russell operates under the Grand Lodge.

28 Okay. lbert J. Russell petitioned Grand Lodge to take jurisdiction over the trial, and it was denied. Do you know that? No. You didn't know that? No, sir. Okay. If lbert J. Russell petitioned to take jurisdiction over the trial and was denied, there's no way they could have had a trial against Walter Hammond, to suspend his membership, could they? I don't know. I don't -- you're getting into stuff above my pay grade, Kevin. facts. Okay. Well, I'm just trying to give you some I understand. So the part of the Digest that talks about not putting an individual back into a Lodge from which he's suspended is part of the trial that the individual Lodges have; isn't that correct? 0 gain, restate. Say that again. I'm -- I apologize. I've got a lot of other stuff going on in my brain, too. That's fine. Why don't we just flip it around. You tell me the rule or chapter -- I'll even go get the Digest, if you want -- that you can show me where,

29 when a Brother is suspended by Grand Lodge and then reinstated, that that keeps him from being a member of his original Lodge. Do you know that section? I do not know that section. If I went upstairs and got the Digest for you, could you thumb through it and find the section that you're under the impression is what happened? I can try, but the Grand -- but the Digest can be interpreted only by one person; so, if it is a statement that could be interpreted a different way, then the only person that can interpret it is the sitting Grand Master. nd that would be the sitting Grand Master who settled this case? If he was involved, then yes. Okay. He sat at mediation and was involved in the case -- 0 Okay. -- and so was Most Worshipful Lynn. nd so can Most Worshipful Lynn interpret the Digest in lieu of the Grand Master? No. But there are black and white rules, and there are gray rules. What's the black and white rules that apply to Walter Hammond, as best as you know or you've been

30 0 informed? I don't know, Kevin. gain, I was following the direction of those above me. under? nd you didn't bother to ask what rule that was No. Okay. So you never went over to lbert J. Russell Lodge? No, sir. Do you have any documents in your possession regarding any conversations between you and any officers of lbert J. Russell Lodge regarding Walter Hammond and his membership status and privileges? No. They were all phone calls. Okay. nd the only -- you said "phone calls." You've only indicated one phone call with Freddie Velasco. Were there multiple calls? I think I called -- well, phone call, phone 0 calls. If there were multiple calls, it was Freddie calling me, and he called me back. Okay. So the total conversation was between you and Freddie? Correct. nd just for the clarification of the record, it's Freddie Velasco we're talking about, the secretary --

31 Correct; Freddie Velasco. I'm sorry. nd he's the secretary over at lbert J. Russell? Yes. I asked for any and all documents in your possession regarding any conversations between you and the Grand Secretary of the Grand Lodge, Richard Lynn, on any matters concerning lbert J. Russell Lodge. Nothing. No documents? (Witness indicating negatively.) Okay. Did you receive any documents, other than, of course, a verbal telephone call from Most Worshipful Ford? No. Did you take any notes or write anything down? Is there any documents in your possession regarding any of these conversations between you and Most Worshipful Lynn, Most Worshipful Ford or Most -- not Most Worshipful, but the secretary, Freddie Velasco? 0 No, sir. nd I have offered you the Masonic Digest book. I can give it to you, but you don't have any sections with you? (Witness indicating negatively.) Because I asked for copies of any sections of the

32 Masonic Digest or corporate by-laws for Grand Lodge, used to determine -- to advise lbert J. Russell Lodge, its officers, that Walter Hammond had no privileges to attend business meetings. I was not involved in that, so I wouldn't have any of those. Okay. So you were just telling them, based on what Most Worshipful Ford said? Correct. nd you haven't done any independent research on that, at all? No. nd then it asks for any and all -- sort of a catchall -- any and all documents related to advice given to lbert J. Russell Lodge's secretary, Freddie Velasco, or any others at lbert J. Russell Lodge about the status of Hammond's membership post-settlement and any requirements or needs to have a valid dues card to attend meetings at lbert J. Russell Lodge. 0 Don't have anything. Okay. What do you know about perpetual memberships? To what end? I know what a perpetual membership is. You have perpetual, you have memorial perpetual, you have -- I think there's one more after that. There are

33 several types of perpetual memberships. Do you know that Walter Hammond has a perpetual membership with lbert J. Russell Lodge? I believe so. I believe I heard it mentioned. Has anybody informed you that lbert J. Russell Lodge, the full seven-plus years now that Walter Hammond's been suspended -- even though it was settled, it continues under suspension -- they've been receiving every dime of his perpetual membership that he paid? I did not know it. I have no knowledge. I don't know how that works. Perpetual membership is -- essentially pays your dues for life; does it not? I apologize. I know how that works. I'm just saying, as far as with the suspension, I have no idea how that works. Well, tell me what you know about perpetual memberships paying dues for life, then. member pays 0 times their annual dues. 0 They're exempt from paying dues the rest of their lives. They are -- can still pay all the voluntary contributions, if they like, and the Lodge gets -- I have no idea how it is calculated. I do know that the Lodge gets money back from all their perpetual memberships. If somebody has a perpetual membership, and the

34 Lodge gets the dues back from Grand Lodge that manages this, they can't be suspended for failure to pay dues, can they? reasons. No. They can only be suspended for other Okay. nd as far as we know today, unless you've heard of something else, the only suspension that occurred to Walter was one conducted by a Grand Lodge trial conducted by Most Worshipful Harry; is that correct? Yes, to the best of my knowledge. Okay. Now, we talked a little bit about the petition at Barnett Lodge. petition? You don't know what's happened to that initial Correct. Okay. So you said it might have been destroyed, it may have been shredded, it may be still sitting at -- at Barnett Lodge; you just don't know? 0 Correct. But you do know that it was never balloted on? Correct. Now, at some point, I think you said that Barnett Lodge received a different petition. Correct. nd you said that was presented by Hansford

35 Joiner? Yes; with -- is that the new letter, the new version of this (indicating)? 0? (Mr. Sanders tendering document to witness.) Yes, this. Okay. So this is the letter of November 0th, Uh-huh. nd why don't you just go ahead and read that, what that letter says, into the record. "This letter shall serve as a 'Letter of Good Standing' for the express purpose of petitioning a Particular Lodge for membership or affiliation, which shall be required to be filed on or before the expiration date of this Letter of Good Standing, on December th, 0. Notwithstanding the foregoing, your good standing status will remain in effect during the petition's due process on any petition for membership or affiliation filed prior to the expiration date." 0 Now, this one was on November 0th, 0, and the original one was on March rd, 0; is that correct? of -- Uh-huh. You have to say "yes" or "no," for the benefit Oh, I'm sorry.

36 It's hard for her to -- Yes. -- catch uh-huhs and huh-uhs. Sorry. Not a problem. I should have told you about that at the beginning of all this. Now, the original letter says "affiliation" only. Uh-huh. It doesn't mention "membership" or anything like that, does it? Correct. Do you know why the second letter says "membership or affiliation"? I have no idea why they would change it. ll right. So what type of petition was then filed that was attached to this letter? Honestly, I was not involved with that. Hansford brought in this, and I handed it over to our secretary. Isn't it true that you took the petition from 0 Hansford Joiner and immediately called Richard Lynn, to ask him about it? Yes, yes. You're right; you're right. I'm sorry. I did. Why did you -- Hold on; hold on. Let me think, so I can get it

37 right. Okay. I'm trying to remember the conversation. I believe I called because the letter was different, and I had to -- and I didn't know about this one. Tell me about the conversation you had with Most Worshipful Lynn -- That's what I'm about this petition. That's why I'm thinking, because I want to make 0 sure I get it right. I called. I said, "I have another petition here for Walt. I have another letter that I don't recognize." He says, "Yes, it was issued..." whenever -- of course, the date is on it, and -- what did I ask him? Sorry. I didn't speak up. I don't remember the exact conversation. I believe I called him, just so I did it right. I wanted it done properly, so I could express -- that's right. nd then I said, "Okay," and I handed it over to the secretary. I said, "This is all good and well. Here you go; give this to the Worshipful Master." Didn't Most Worshipful Lynn tell you to ballot on it that night? No, no.

38 I asked him, because we had already done all of the -- we had already done all of the investigations. You had already -- Walt Hammond had already spoken with our investigation committee, so we had the reports. Well, that was on the initial petition, right? The investigation is the investigation. It's the same for either one. That doesn't change. Where does it say that in the Digest? It doesn't say, either way, to the best of my -- to what I understand. If a petition follows its regular course, each petition is investigated; isn't that correct? Uh-huh. nd we did reinvestigate the second one. The Worshipful Master wanted to make sure, as -- as was I, that it was done correctly. in time? nd who was the Worshipful Master at that point David Thomas. nd why were you doing all this work for 0 Worshipful Thomas, and calling Richard Lynn and taking the petition? Why didn't you just let Mr. Joiner -- I am also listed as the assistant secretary. I assist the secretary; and, with foreknowledge of everything that's happened, again, I wanted to make sure it was done correctly.

39 So what did Most Worshipful Lynn say to you when you called him that night? Where did you call him at? That was after hours. Uh-huh. Did you call him on his cell phone? I believe I texted him, which would be on his cell phone, and said, "Can you call me, please?" or I may have called him. nd why did you decide that you had to talk with Most Worshipful Lynn about this situation? know. He is probably one of the most educated Masons I nd what were you hoping to learn from him, as the better educated Masons that you know? That we had done it properly. Well, what were you trying to do properly? You received a petition. Uh-huh; two different letters. What -- what changed between these two, other than the wording? 0 nd what did he say? He said it was reissued so that the letter of good standing on here, if you read it, would go on until the petition's due course. Did you call anybody else? No.

40 0 Were you still District Deputy when that came in? No. June of 0, I ended. Okay. So Hansford Joiner brings it in; you take it from him; you call Most Worshipful Lynn; you and him have a conversation about, I guess, the authorization letter, which you have noted is different than the original one. that? Uh-huh. nd then what did you do with the petition after I gave it to our secretary. nd then what, if anything, did he do with it? Let's see. November 0. I believe he went and got our Worshipful Master, said, "I have this. Would you like to vote on it tonight?" nd they asked me, "Can we vote on it?" I said, "To the best of my knowledge, we can." So you were the one that told them that they could vote on it that night? 0 Uh-huh. Without any additional -- Yes. I'm sorry. I said "uh-huh" again. Without any additional investigation or anything like that? No.

41 When you say "no," what do you mean? You didn't tell them that they could vote without additional investigation? No. I'm sorry. No, I told them that we could proceed with it. We already had the investigations done; the investigations -- I'm sure it was not going to change within a month or so. I don't know the dates that the investigations were done. Okay. So, without independent investigation on a separate petition which was different -- it was a different type of petition; was it not? Yes. I don't recall exactly what, but it was. Okay. But -- so, on a different petition on a different investigation, what happened that night? Did you ballot on it? Yes. nd what happened? It came back -- it was rejected by the Craft, and the Worshipful Master set it aside. 0 nd just for the benefit of the record, when you say "rejected by the Craft," what does that mean? It was dark. What does it take for a ballot to be dark? Can I ask, does that get into our -- the way we conduct business, not public? I'm asking you.

42 This is a deposition. It's before a Court; in fact, it's before several courts, both in federal court and in State court, and there are no secrets to the Court. This is a corporation, which has a corporate shield issued by the State of Florida through legislation. It is a body politic, as it calls itself. There are no secrets in depositions. May I ask the attorney a question? MR. DOUBERLEY: Well, nothing he just said was -- is accurate, and you should not disclose what you consider to be secrets of the Masons. THE WITNESS: re you asking how we ballot? BY MR. SNDERS: I just said: What is a dark ballot? I'm sorry. It means that the ballot was taken, a secret ballot -- nobody knows who casts what -- and it was declared that he was rejected. How many ballots or votes does it take for a ballot such as this to be dark? 0 One. One. So one person can keep somebody from affiliating or joining or going into membership in a Lodge? Yes. Did Richard Lynn tell you to cast that ballot? No. nd I cannot tell you how anybody balloted,

43 even myself. C You're under oath, and you can tell me how you balloted. MR. DOUBERLEY: I don't think so. nd you know better than that. MR. SNDERS: That's not true, Counsel. MR. DOUBERLEY: No, do not testify to such things. MR. SNDERS: Certify that question, and we'll bring it up to the Court and see what the Court says about it. (Thereupon, the question last-above referred to was certified by the reporter.) BY MR. SNDERS: Did Richard Lynn tell you to cast the dark ballot, and that's why he wanted you to vote on it that night? He gave me no advice on that, of any sort. nd you're, just for the record, refusing to 0 answer that, on whether or not you balloted on that to reject Walter Hammond? Say that again; testifying -- You are testifying -- or refusing to testify today on how you balloted on that? bsolutely.

44 BY MR. SNDERS: MR. SNDERS: That is certified on that. Just for clarification, you are refusing to 0 answer that question why? MR. DOUBERLEY: On advice of counsel, if nothing else. He has -- he has some values that other members obviously don't have, and he's going to stand by -- MR. SNDERS: Well, I'm glad you finally recognize that. MR. DOUBERLEY: You don't have any values as a Mason, for you to be asking these questions of him, and -- MR. HMMOND: I object to that statement. MR. DOUBERLEY: You can object to what you want, but he's done with this avenue of questioning. MR. SNDERS: You cannot direct me how I can ask questions. MR. DOUBERLEY: He's not going to answer any more. Certify them. MR. SNDERS: You say he's not going to answer any more questions, at all? MR. DOUBERLEY: Not on this issue. It's dark. MR. SNDERS: I'm going to move for sanctions against Counsel.

45 MR. DOUBERLEY: Oh, of course. I'm surprised you didn't say it before. MR. SNDERS: Make sure you get all that down. MR. DOUBERLEY: Yeah. BY MR. SNDERS: question. ll right. What do you know about Grand Lodge? uite a vague and broad question. Well, we'll see where it leads. What do you want to know? sk a specific What type of organization is Grand Lodge? I still honestly do not understand where you're going with the question. Grand Lodge is the governing body for Free and ccepted Masons in Florida. nd how is it made up, if you know? Its officers? Its structure? Structure; structure sounds good. It's composed of elected officers and appointed 0 officers and other things that I have no idea what they do. Is it an independent organization or is it a corporation? MR. DOUBERLEY: Objection; predicate. THE WITNESS: I don't -- I don't know how corporations -- how all that works.

46 Is not a church a corporation? Everything has to be a corporation to do anything. So I don't know. Different types -- I have no idea. BY MR. SNDERS: Deputy? You're District Deputy, or a former District Yes. It's been said you may have aspirations to become a Grand Master, yourself. Uh-huh, eventually. Say "yes" or "no." Yes. Let me just show you what is considered rticle I of the Constitution -- give you an unmarked copy -- and ask you if you recognize that, the organization that you would, one day, want to be Grand Master of. (Witness perusing document.) Didn't know I would have to read all of this, or I would have brought my glasses. 0 In particular, I'm looking at Section. If you can see that, the second paragraph, if you would read that into the record. Hold on. So you would like me to read Section? Just, if you want, you can paraphrase it.

47 But what does Section say that -- I'll read it verbatim, so that there's no -- I'm fine with that. "Corporate Entity: It is recognized that the 0 Grand Lodge is a regularly constituted Masonic Grand Lodge and, as such, is subject to and governed by the Landmarks of Freemasonry and those laws and customs that govern all Masonic Grand Lodges. It is further recognized that the Grand Lodge is a body politic and corporate, created and existing under and by virtue of Chapter, Laws of Florida, cts of, and it and all Particular Lodges Masonically chartered by it are corporate bodies subject to laws governing corporations so created and existing in Florida." Okay? MR. SNDERS: When I asked you if you knew -- we'll go ahead and make this as -- well, we'll do the second letter as and then the Constitution rticle, -- as. (Plaintiff's Exhibit Nos. and were marked for identification.) BY MR. SNDERS: I'm just going to get you to look down here. It says "Section." It says "Corporate Board." Who is the first person on the corporate board?

48 to be? The Grand Master. nd that would be who you aspire, at some point, Yes. Okay. Have you read Chapter, Laws of Florida, cts of? No. s an aspiring Grand Master, wouldn't it be good for you to have knowledge of all forms of Masonic law? bsolutely. Have you ever read it? No, sir. I also aspire to support my family, which comes a little bit before that. Well, that's good. Yes, sir. Let me show you -- this was marked as Exhibit B 0 to a Complaint that was filed in federal court. I'll give you a chance to read through that; and, when you've looked at it, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions on it, as a would-be Grand Master. Can I ask a question? Sure. nd with all due respect, what does this have to do with this situation at lbert J. Russell that I was

49 called here about? Well, I get to take the deposition and ask the questions, so -- it is all intertwined and interrelated. I'll just say that. I guess you might repeat your statement. It's above your pay grade, I guess. That's a very honest answer. So is this a copy -- what is this a copy of? You said a Complaint. This looks like this is a copy of Florida law.. It's a copy of Chapter, Laws of Florida of This is not a copy of a Complaint. This is a copy of law; okay. The only thing you have to read is Chapter (sic). You don't have to read the top line.. 0 Correct. I'm sorry. (Witness perusing document.) Okay. Well, did you read the first page? Yeah. You wanted me to read this. Yes. That's fine. Now, you've indicated you aspire to be Grand Master, possibly, one day; also, to feed your family. I

50 0 understand that. Uh-huh. You want to be the head of a corporation that exclusively limits itself to members of the white race only, according to its charter and formation? MR. DOUBERLEY: Object to the form. THE WITNESS: Can I still answer? MR. DOUBERLEY: Yes. THE WITNESS: The answer to that would be, the Constitution of the United States has been changed several times. They don't go back and white out the lines. To the best of my knowledge, this has been changed by subsequent legislation; and, no, I don't know what it is. BY MR. SNDERS: Who advised you that this has been changed by subsequent legislation? 0 ctually, several people. I was given a tour of Grand Lodge many years ago, and one little factoid was about the original wording of it, of the Constitution, that it was quite -- I would -- my opinion, racist, and was changed. Well, this is the Constitution, Exhibit, right? Or Charter; whatever you want to call it, I

51 guess. Okay. But the Constitution still indicates that its beginnings go back to an act of the Florida legislature in. Okay. Chapter. Okay. Right? Have you ever looked up -- and I can go do that for you real quick -- have you ever looked up the rticles of Incorporation for the corporate body that you seek to be Grand Master of one day? It says that it was formed in. changed? Okay. So when, to your knowledge, was any of this MR. DOUBERLEY: Object to the form; predicate. THE WITNESS: Late '0s, early '0s. BY MR. SNDERS: 0 Okay. But no one told you how or what or when? I would assume it was changed by a vote of the Craft or -- because that's how you have to change it. Well, you're talking about changing the Constitution. Okay. When was this statute ever changed?

52 I don't have that knowledge. I'm sure, if you went back and looked at a bunch of societies, or whatever you would like to call it, or ancient or -- I'm sorry; not ancient -- older, that there's some questionable wording in there. I mean -- That are still on the books? I would -- you're a lawyer. You know there's some extremely interesting laws still out there that nobody follows. nd this is an interesting piece of law -- would you agree? -- an organization composed mostly of white males, relating itself back and being formed back in. Do you know your history? In approximately, do you know what was going on? 0 I'm not very good with history. Prior to that, there was a Civil War? Yes. You've heard of that? Oh, yeah. Do you know what the composition of the Florida legislature may have been in? No. Well, I would assume it was predominantly white, if that's what you're asking. Do you know who the governor was, of the State, and his ties to the Confederate rmy?

53 No, sir. MR. SNDERS: Give me one second, real quick. (Off the record.) BY MR. SNDERS: I just printed off from the Sunbiz-dot-org site -- it's the Florida Department of State, Division of Corporations -- I've got the whole, entire three pages. But what I'm most wanting to show you is the details of The Most Worshipful Grand Lodge of Free and ccepted Masons of Florida. Have you ever looked at the corporate records? (Witness indicating negatively.) You have to say "yes" or "no." Oh, sorry. No. Can you tell when this corporation was formed? 0 It says "effective date" on it. MR. DOUBERLEY: Object to the form; predicate. THE WITNESS: ccording to this, the effective date was March -- no; January, February, March, pril, May; excuse me -- May th of, but it looks like it was refiled June 0th of. Okay. BY MR. SNDERS: What's the date on this?. MR. SNDERS: We'll make this No. and that

54 No.. (Plaintiff's Exhibit Nos. and were marked for identification.) BY MR. SNDERS: You attend Grand Lodge sessions; do you not? Yes. You know who Seth Rothstein is? Yes. Okay. Did Seth Rothstein propose any legislation, to your knowledge, about the Grand Lodge of Florida either accepting blacks in it or recognition of the black Grand Lodge? Oh, gees, that was years ago. Yes, I have knowledge. I do remember it. nd have you -- It was -- to the best of my knowledge, it was recognition to the Prince Hall Lodge. nd who is Seth -- 0 We already allow black members. Who is Seth Rothstein? Past District Deputy Grand Master of the th District, a Member of Solomon Lodge, Past Master of Solomon Lodge. nd what was the ultimate vote on that recognition?

55 The Craft did not elect it. nd what was Grand Lodge's position on that? I do not remember that. I believe -- do you have the year that that was? Not off the top of my head. Yeah. I've asked Grand Lodge for that discovery. It's supposed to be coming. I do believe that was probably the first or second year I went, so I wasn't -- I was still taking it in, with everything that was going on. nd, to the best of your recollection, if you know, wasn't it the Jurisprudence Committee's recommendation to deny it? I do not remember. Let's just take it from that way forward. Okay. Was it ever initiated or anything put in there about recognition of Prince Hall Masonry? 0 Didn't you just ask me that? Isn't that what the first was, did I -- do I remember it, or -- Well, I was asking you -- first I asked, did you remember -- Okay. -- if it passed or not. You said you do not.

56 nd since you do not remember whether or it passed or not, I was asking you -- No. -- has it been implemented, in any way, to recognize Prince Hall Masonry? It did not pass; it did not pass. Okay. Do you know how many Grand Lodge states there are that do not recognize black Masonry? No. There's only approximately eleven. (Witness indicating affirmatively.) Do you know what states those are in? No. The original Confederate states. I was surprised that Texas does recognize. I thought -- I do know there are a few, and I would have thought Texas would have been one that do not, but they do. Only the ten or eleven that compose the original 0 Confederate states are the ones that refused to recognize Prince Hall Masonry. Now, this statute also requires that the subordinate Lodges also be composed of Masons of the white race; does it not? Section. I'm reading. Yes, it does.

57 nd if you read a little bit further down, it says that these Worshipful Masters and Junior Wardens who form the subordinate Lodges will be separate and independent body politics and corporate; does it not? I didn't get that far, sir. It's only about four more lines down. (Witness perusing document.) It does. But it also says something about it can have several other corporate names and styles, and -- okay. What does "separate and independent" mean to you? Exactly what it means, separate and independent. So do the separate and independent bodies still have to respond to Grand Lodge, or are they separate and independent from Grand Lodge? Yes. In the first section, it says they will be subordinate to Grand Lodge. But, in the fourth section, it says that they'll be separate and independent. 0 It says two different things, then. If each independent Lodge is a body politic and corporate, by what authority does the Grand Lodge have to rule over those separate organizations? MR. DOUBERLEY: Objection; predicate. THE WITNESS: I don't know. I know that my Particular Lodge is listed underneath the Grand Lodge

58 of Florida, and it's corporate, because we're having to do some banking stuff, so it is listed as an entity of the Grand Lodge on Sunbiz. So, to the best of my knowledge, that would mean there are some Lodges that fall underneath the corporation and are part of it, Grand Lodge. But law is you all's job, not mine. BY MR. SNDERS: What, if any, conversations have you had with anybody else, with regards to the situation with Walter Hammond and his membership? Who have I spoken to or been spoken to about? Correct. How much paper do you have? Tons. I've got her. Honestly, there's not -- there's no way I could tell you. It's been how many years? 0 Too long. Too long. nd everybody -- you know, people ask. They ask you? They ask. They want to know what's going on. "Do you know what's going on?" nd how do you respond to those questions? I tell them what I've seen, what I've heard, to the best of my knowledge. There's some stuff that I've

59 heard about. There's some stuff that I've seen. nd what is it that you've told them that you've seen, and what is it that you've told them that you've heard about? I was at -- what year was that? 00? Was it 00, the appeal at Grand Lodge? I remember being in -- I'm trying to think, because I think you were there. That would be close. 0 It was around there, 00? nd I sat in on the appeals process and listened to everything. It's been so long, I honestly don't remember everything that was said. I mean, the conversations vary so much, you know: "Why was he suspended?" "I don't know." "This is what was said." "I don't know. I wasn't there." But, as well as -- well, you know, you even know. nd it's just -- it's been so long, it's -- everybody knows what's going on. I say everybody. lmost every Brother in the fraternity knows a little piece of it. Well, I'm just looking for some names of some people that you've spoken to or that have asked questions about it, that you've engaged in conversation. You've mentioned Most Worshipful Lynn.

60 0 Uh-huh. I assume there's got to be more than him that you've spoken to. I mean, do you just want me to start naming everybody I've had any kind of conversation about this with? s best you can. Oh, geez. Let's see. There's you, Hansford Joiner -- I don't know. Let's just start at Barnett Lodge. We'll go back. Mark McNew, Keith Dryden -- I mean, this is years ago. I mean, I'm not being facetious; I'm being honest. The people I've had these conversations with or have started conversations with me. Let's see. Joe Rogers, III; Joe Rogers, II; Joe Rogers, Sr. I mean, I'm just -- I'm just seeing names in my head, Kevin. Where do you want me to stop? Okay. I mean, I'm not -- How many Grand Masters have you spoken with about 0 this situation? Let's start at the top. Grand Masters? Yeah. Primarily, James Ford would be the primary one, of what was going on with that. ny other Grand Masters, besides, of course, Most

61 Worshipful Lynn? Most Worshipful Steve Boring and I have spoken on -- have spoken on it. nd when was that? Okay. I made it a point not to look that way, but I need to ask Richard Lynn a question. You can't ask him anything. Okay. I need to know a date. It was the Grand Master's homecoming for Steve Boring this year, and it was down south somewhere -- I don't remember -- and it was -- I don't remember the date; whatever date that was. nd he asked me, you know, "Was it voted on?" I said, "Yes, and the Worshipful Master set it aside." He goes, "Okay," and that was it. 0 mean? ballot? nd when you say he set it aside, what did that The Worshipful Master did not accept the ballot. Okay. Can a Worshipful Master set aside a In certain circumstances, yes. What would be those circumstances? The Worshipful Master also can, at his will and pleasure, do that for his own reasons, which he doesn't

62 have to expound upon. Is that written someplace, that he can do that? I believe it is. But you don't know where? I can read it, Kevin; and, in a couple of days, I couldn't tell you where I read it, honestly. Who is the current secretary at Barnett Lodge? Joe Rogers, III. nd when you were talking earlier, and you said you handed it to the secretary, you handed the second petition to Joe Rogers, III? Yes. ny other Grand Master you spoke to about Walter's case, the appeal or anything? Lynn. No, sir. Okay. I know you've spoken with Most Worshipful Besides the conversation that you had with Most 0 Worshipful Lynn, with regards to the letter, what conversations have you had with Most Worshipful Lynn about the Walter case? Honestly, there's been quite a few over the years, asking questions -- You don't have to give me dates. You can tell me the substance.

63 this do?" I understand. -- asking, "Why does it work this way? What does nd what -- I'm getting there. You've got it. I'm following my own train of thought. It's a little screwed up in there right now. "It says that -- okay, it says..." such-and-such "...in the Digest about..." nd, "Okay, explain that to me." "Okay." nd then I'd go, and I would read some stuff -- you know, just various conversations about what's going on with it. Well, can you get specific about the Digest topics that you're talking about? I kind of need you to be as specific as possible. I know you do, and I'm trying. I'm trying to 0 think of a specific thing we said. Well, you were saying that you asked him why, and you read the Digest, and you were asking, "Why does it work that way?" I mean, can you recall -- It was in some of the sections concerning -- I

64 know we had -- we talked about -- I think we talked about a section concerning types of petitions, I think. I did call and ask one time about the -- the suspension reinstatement process, and I was referred to the Grand Master, but I never called the Grand Master. Which Grand Master were you being referred to? I believe it was Jim Ford. It goes back to that interpretation thing. Was there any decisions on suspension reinstatement? No. Like I said, I never called him, because he said, you know, it was up to the interpretation of the Grand Master on some things. topics. I'm still looking for some details. I know. You have to remember some details or, at least, They escape me right now, Kevin. nd all I can 0 say is I'm sorry. I've got a bunch of other stuff going on that has got my thought process tied up with that. Or is it you just don't want to say? No, that is not it. nd I would be more than happy to explain to you why, if you would like. It's not really part of this, but it might explain to you why.

65 Well, I'd rather stay on topic. I know. nd I'm not insensitive to any situations that you're in, but my client has been in a situation now for over seven years. I understand. It's your job. You can't recall a single instance of a topic that you discussed with Most Worshipful Lynn, involving the Walter Hammond case? The deposition -- the most recent thing I can think of is -- and I don't know if that's part of the Walter -- I was at the Masonic Home for the th and th's support of the Masonic Home, and we had a big gap in the day, so I wanted to go -- there's meetings you can sit in on, so I went and sat in on the meeting. meeting involving Walter? No, no. It was nothing to do with Walter. It 0 was nothing to do with that. It was just the corporate board, or whatever, and there was a letter that you had sent that I had heard about. fter that, after everything was done, I'm like, "What is this all about?" nd I posed the question to Most Worshipful Lynn. He goes, "It is in reference to -- it has to do with the ongoing Walt Hammond case."

66 nd I believe that's what all this had to do with. That would be the most recent; and, honestly, that's the most specific I can give you at this point. nd when was that? September-ish, November-ish, I think. So you're talking September ', 0? Was that a Saturday? I have no idea. Yeah, exactly. That would be, I think, around in there. I think it was on a Saturday. So the only thing you can remember is one instance at the Masonic Home, in a meeting, about a letter that I had sent? Uh-huh. nd that was in 0? Yes. No other conversations with Most Worshipful Lynn that you can recall regarding voting, balloting, parts of the Digest that apply, or anything like that? 0 Not specifically, Kevin. fter you gave Walter's new form to Joe Rogers, were you involved in any way after that? No. Other than being a member of the Lodge, no. MR. SNDERS: I'm going to suspend your deposition at this point in time. I'm not terminating

67 0 it. Well, you may have some questions from your counsel that he may want to do, but you may be recalled back after we talk about this in front of the judge, on the certified questions. MR. DOUBERLEY: I have no questions. I don't agree to a suspension, but -- MR. SNDERS: That's it for today. (Discussion off the record.) Your deposition is incomplete. It's been suspended. But in case the judge, for some reason, finds that there's no further need to take your deposition or to continue it, you have the right to read your deposition. THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. MR. SNDERS: That would require you contacting the court reporter, going into her office, reviewing the deposition. You can't actually change the deposition -- THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah. MR. SNDERS: -- but you can make a list of things at the back, which says that, on Page, Line, I don't believe I said this; I said this. THE WITNESS: Okay. MR. SNDERS: nd that would be an exception to it, but the typewritten would be it.

68 0 You can waive that, if you want; and, that way, you don't have to come in. If you waive it, then everything that is taken, that she has recorded, will be considered correct and true, and we go from there. MR. DOUBERLEY: You do not have to go to her office. She'll provide me with a copy that I can send to you with the Errata page. MR. SNDERS: She will not provide that to his office. You'll have to go to her office in order to read it. MR. DOUBERLEY: That's just not true. MR. SNDERS: That is true. MR. DOUBERLEY: nd you can't -- MR. SNDERS: It's my court reporter. MR. DOUBERLEY: Yeah, I know it is. Maybe that will be changed if you keep this up. But -- MR. SNDERS: You have used and abused my court reporter by taking copies of things and not ordering things from her. You want to order a copy? You're welcome to order a copy and stop being so cheap. MR. DOUBERLEY: I have not used anything that I haven't paid her for. It's none of your business, anyway, my relationship with your court reporter. But, look, if I order --

69 0 MR. SNDERS: You can come to her office. He's in Jacksonville. You're not even in Jacksonville, sir. Why in the world would she send it all the way down there to have it come all the way back here? MR. DOUBERLEY: She does it electronically. Every reporter in the state does it. I order it; she sends it to me, with the errata sheet; I send it to him; he fills it out, and he can change his testimony. MR. SNDERS: He cannot change his testimony. MR. DOUBERLEY: She doesn't change the transcript. MR. SNDERS: He will add an addendum to it. That doesn't change his testimony. MR. DOUBERLEY: He can correct anything that he wants. MR. SNDERS: It's not a correction. It's his backwards recollection, if he thinks he did something else. There's no corrections. MR. DOUBERLEY: Yeah, he can change it, anyway. But we can -- we can read the rule. It's up to you, whether you want to do it or not. The reporter has proven to be very accurate in what she has reported, so -- but I can send it to you, and you can review it and sign it and fill out the errata sheet,

70 0 if you wish. It's always a good thing to do, because then, if you find something that was wrong, you can correct it right away, instead of waiting till later. THE WITNESS: I'm sure. MR. SNDERS: You have to pronounce on the record whether or not you want to read or you want to waive. THE WITNESS: Say that again. MR. SNDERS: You have to pronounce verbally on the record, based on all of this, whether or not you want to make yourself available to read all of this or -- THE WITNESS: I would like to read, to make sure. MR. SNDERS: There we go. nd that's it. (Witness excused.) (Thereupon, the deposition was adjourned at approximately :0 a.m.) * * * 0

71 CERTIFICTE OF OTH STTE OF FLORID ) ) COUNTY OF DUVL ) I, Laurie J. Miller, Court Reporter, certify that JSON C. COWRT, personally appeared before me and was duly sworn. WITNESS my hand and official seal at Jacksonville, this st day of February 0. Laurie J. Miller 0

72 STTE OF FLORID ) ) COUNTY OF DUVL ) DEPOSITION CERTIFICTE I, Laurie J. Miller, Court Reporter, do hereby certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the foregoing deposition and that the transcript is a true record of the testimony given by the witness. I further certify that I am not a relative, employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorneys or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. Dated this st day of February 0. Laurie J. Miller, Court Reporter 0

73 E R R T S H E E T This is to certify that I, Jason C. Cowart, have read the foregoing transcript of my deposition, Pages through 0, taken on Tuesday, February, 0, and find the same to be correct, with the following exceptions (if any): PGE LINE WHERE IT SYS: SHOULD SY: 0 Jason C. Cowart

74 Brighton Bay Trail North Jacksonville, Florida ========================================================== Phone: (0) -0 February, 0 William M. Douberley, Esquire Douberley, McGuinness & Cicero 00 Sawgrass Corporate Square Suite 0 Sunrise, Florida In re: Hammond vs. lbert J. Russel Lodge, etc., et al. Case No. -C- Division: CV-H Dear Mr. Douberley: ttached hereto is the E-Tran copy you requested of the transcript of the deposition of Jason C. Cowart, taken in the above-styled case. Please have Mr. Cowart read his deposition transcript and complete and sign the corresponding errata sheet, then please forward the original executed errata to Mr. Sanders, as he is being provided with the original transcript. If you have any questions or if I may be of further assistance to you, please don't hesitate to call. Cordially yours, Laurie J. Miller, Court Reporter cc: Kevin S. Sanders, Esquire

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