I.M. Pei Oral History Interview JFK#1, 03/18/2003 Administrative Information

Transcription

1 I.M. Pei Oral History Interview JFK#1, 03/18/2003 Administrative Information Creator: I.M. Pei Interviewer: Vicki Daitch Date of Interview: March 18, 1966 Place of Interview: N/A Length: 19 pages Biographical Note I.M. Pei was the architect who designed the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library. The interview focuses on the process of finding a site for the library and the involvement of Jacqueline Kennedy and Robert F. Kennedy in the project, among other topics. Access Open Usage Restrictions According to the deed of gift signed December 28, 2010, copyright of these materials has been assigned to the United States Government. Users of these materials are advised to determine the copyright status of any document from which they wish to publish. Copyright The copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of photocopies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. Under certain conditions specified in the law, libraries and archives are authorized to furnish a photocopy or other reproduction. One of these specified conditions is that the photocopy or reproduction is not to be used for any purpose other than private study, scholarship, or research. If a user makes a request for, or later uses, a photocopy or reproduction for purposes in excesses of fair use, that user may be liable for copyright infringement. This institution reserves the right to refuse to accept a copying order if, in its judgment, fulfillment of the order would involve violation of copyright law. The copyright law extends its protection to unpublished works from the moment of creation in a tangible form. Direct your questions concerning copyright to the reference staff. Transcript of Oral History Interview These electronic documents were created from transcripts available in the research room of the John F. Kennedy Library. The transcripts were scanned using optical character recognition and the resulting text files were proofread against the original transcripts. Some formatting changes were made. Page numbers are noted where they would have occurred at the bottoms of the pages of the original transcripts. If researchers have any concerns about accuracy, they are encouraged to visit the Library and consult the transcripts and the interview recordings.

2 Suggested Citation I.M. Pei, recorded interview by Vicki Daitch, March 18, 2003, (page number), John F. Kennedy Library Oral History Program.

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4 I.M. Pei JFK #1 Table of Contents Page Topic 2 Being selected by Jacqueline Kennedy to work on the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library 3 Meeting with Jacqueline Kennedy 4 Jacqueline Kennedy s involvement in the project 5 Difficulties finding a site 7 Steve Smith s involvement 8 Selection of the site at Columbia Point 10 Robert F. Kennedy s [RFK] role in the project 12 Design of the building 13 Emotional engagement with the project 14 Concerns about the site 16 RFK s hopes for the library 17 Harvard community s resistance to the library

5 Oral History Interview with I.M. Pei March 18, 2003 By Vicki Daitch For the John F. Kennedy Library start things out by saying that I m Vicky Daitch, and I m with the John F. Kennedy Library. How do you spell Geiss? Daitch, D-A-I-T-C-H. Daitch, yes, yes. Right, and I m speaking with I.M. Pei, the architect who worked on the John F. Kennedy Library, and I hope that these will be set up enough I want them to get your voice, more than mine! [Laughs] All right. My voice is just like this. Is it all right? Yeah, I think that ll be fine. Can you receive it all right? I think that ll be fine. [-1-]

6 PEI If you want me to [Pause in Recording] PEI And you may know that Ted Musho [Theodore J. Musho] spoke with me at the library, it must have been a couple of months ago. Yes, yeah. And he was great! He came very prepared, with lots of papers, and dates, and names, and all that. Oh, yes, he was involved with me from the very beginning. Was he? Yeah, then he stayed with it, in fact, even longer than I did! Really? [Laughs] He did some renovation for the library since we finished it. I think he probably made an addition to it, that I remember, but I was not involved as much anymore. Oh, I see. Yes, mm-hmm. Right, right. So now, when exactly did you become involved with the library? Because it was my understanding that even before John F. Kennedy died, he was starting to think about the library. Oh, he was, but I was not involved in any way, until I think he was assassinated in 1963, and I, like all the others, were broken-hearted, of course. So therefore, I was not unfamiliar with the man and what he did. But it did not come to me as a commission, let s put it, until 1964, when Mrs. Kennedy [Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy] personally, I guess, chose me. Ah! And that was quite an interesting, for me anyways, history of the project. Because it was 1964 that she came with Bill Walton [William Walton], who was, I think then, the Commissioner of Fine Arts in Washington, and an advisor to the Kennedys on matters of the arts. And he came with her to my office, and we were alerted to that, and we prepared, because it was quite a lot of security in those days. We [-2-]

7 just don t, you know, wherever Mrs. Kennedy went, there was always a crowd chasing after her. So we had tried to keep it as private as possible, so she did come. And it was a very special occasion first time I met her, actually. In the White House years I d been to Washington once, and I saw her, but I wasn t really even introduced to her, formally, until And Bill Walton, whom I knew then, was a big help. Bill Walton made it easy for me to even talk about it the project with her. How did he what was his role as facilitator? Advisor, advisory only. But I think the decision was made mostly by her. Really? That s my belief, yes. Now, how do you think she chose you? Did she say what were the things that motivated her, what she likes about you? Well, preceding that meeting, which was in 64, I think she Mr. Walton did it for her, I suppose collected all the architects of the world, I guess, at that time, to meet in Boston, at the Ritz Carlton Hotel. That was before our formal meeting, when she told me that she would like to know more about me. At that time she already had, sort of came down to a smaller list, in which I was one. But that meeting in Ritz Carlton was an interesting meeting. We all went there, all the architects from everywhere, from Europe, from South America, and as well as United States, were there. Now that meeting must have been recorded. Do you have it in your archive? I don t know. It must have been recorded, because that was an important meeting where she expressed her wish no site yet that she would like to invite our interest in doing this. Of course, everybody was interested! I was [laughs] I was no different. And then after that meeting in Boston, we then were invited to Cape Cod, to the summer home of the Kennedys, yeah. I assume this was more the short list? I was no, not yet. I was not short-listed then. Oh, okay, so this was still a lot of people invited to Cape Cod? I still went there, and talked, and she probably look at each of us, you know. And then, when she came to see me in my office, I realized then I was one of the short list. And I then gave her what I had done, which wasn t very much by that time! [Laughs] [-3-]

8 [Laughs] Compared with the other luminous architects, I guess I was relatively a newcomer. But I did have a few projects, and I mentioned it to her, and I think she went to see it went to see many of them. Really? And then she came back after that, and decided to ask me to do it. That was the most exciting event in my life. Oh, it must have been! Most exciting! Has to be. I ve done other projects since then, but nothing can compare with that moment. Right. Why is that one so special? Hmm? Why do you think that one is so special? You ve done so many famous projects. No, not at that time. It was very special because of the man, whom we all venerated. And then also, the sad story of the assassination and all that. It s such a, my generation particularly, because I belong to the same generation as the President in fact we are the same age. So, I was very touched by the event, not any more so than many, many others, but still. So when the opportunity to try to do something to memorize memorialize, I guess the man, it s a great, great challenge, and a great responsibility. Yes, yes. Why do you think that well actually, let me ask you: is this unusual, for someone to invest as much time and energy to personally getting to know the whole variety of architects, the way that Mrs. Kennedy did, to personally talk to each of you? Is that a normal kind of procedure? No. Okay. Very unusual. Is it? And that speaks something about the lady. [-4-]

9 Yeah. She is nothing if not complete involvement in something she decided to do. She s just invested time to do it, and do it well. And she and since then, of course oh, you remember that you re too young. The procession? The funeral? Yes. She planned it all It was beautiful, yeah. She planned it all. And she planned this one, too. I m sure that she saw many, many architects, and she probably invested less time on all of them, but a lot of time on a few of us. And I was fortunate to be one of them. Right. What was your feeling about how you, oh, I don t know clicked with Mrs. Kennedy? I don t know. That is something difficult for me to say. I think it s probably difficult, too, for her. People ask her that same question. And you know her answer, probably, is that because I really had not yet done very much, but to her I show promise, that s what she said, much like President Kennedy was. That was the best thing she said! And I couldn t say more. But the project is a sad one, for her as well as for me. Tell me about it. We encountered so many ups and downs. We didn t really get to a decision on a site until many years afterwards. And it started in 64, and she and I went to Harvard University, and she pointed out a site that the university offered to her. And that was near the business school, I believe. And we looked at the site together. I was already selected then; the announcement was made in public in I think one of the hotels I forget which one, now. Plaza, I guess. And it was in New York Times, and all that. So after that, we started to work, and the first thing was find a site. And the first visit to Harvard was to see if that site was all right. I wish we had selected that site! [Laughs] [Laughs] I would have saved so much! But I didn t think the site was right, nor did she, for reasons I don t need to say now. It s just not the right site; we both agreed on that. So then, what is? What was, then, a proper choice? And I think we both came to I think it was probably she that mentioned that, that President Kennedy and Dr. Pusey [Nathan Marsh Pusey] of Harvard were already selecting a site at the time before [-5-]

10 he was assassinated, and he pointed out several sites. And I believe one of them was the car barn in Cambridge. Are you familiar with the car barn? Is that the M.T.D. site, or is that another? The car barn is now the Kennedy School is there. And I thought that was the best site! From that point on, she and I just fixed on that site! You did, yeah? And we had nothing but trouble trying to get that site! Well, it takes vision. I m trying to imagine this site. It s got trains, buses. You know, it s kind of almost a waste site. It s a yard. It s a railroad yard, but has great potential. It s opposite Eliot House, and face the great river. It has everything! Harvard Square is only two minutes walk. Right, right. No, there couldn t be a better site than that one! But at that time, people all surprised that we chose that site. From that point on, I was trying to get Harvard to agree, but Harvard doesn t have entire control of that site. It belonged to the Metropolitan Transit. Oh, right. Yeah, there s some kind of at that time. And they were not too keen about letting us have it. And also, I believe the Harvard University in general also worried about this, because they worried about the character of this museum, that it might attract so many tourists come, and make it sort of like a Disneyland kind of a thing. They were worried about that, which is not the case. But it was very difficult to convince people that it was going to be that. We had trouble. We had a lot of difficulty. And then it became even more difficult when Vietnam became an issue. Now why would that make it more difficult? Because then the President was linked with that problem, in a fashion. You see, he was venerated, as you know, 64, 65. But from 67 on, it became just the opposite. Oh, right. You see, the money was all raised within a matter of a short time, months or [-6-]

11 something. Really, all raised, just like that nickels and dimes from kids. It was unbelievable! But then there was a reversal of fortune for me, at least. And so we had great difficulty getting the right site. We were not I wouldn t say the word rejected. We were told that this is probably not the site to pursue, because there are so many oppositions. And Mrs. Kennedy herself left the scene, when she married Onassis [Aristotle Onassis]. She dropped out of it completely? Not completely, but almost. Really? She told me that. She said, You know, I m no longer a member of the family, and I will have to leave this now to the, there was a board of directors or whatever you call it, and at that time to Steve Smith [Stephen E. Smith], who was the brother-in-law of President Kennedy. So Steve Smith took over, and Mrs. Kennedy gradually stepped out of the scene. I don t remember the year that she married Mr. Onassis. It must be around that time, 67 or so? Maybe late sixties. Late sixties. But anyway, that is a turning point. When she left it, it was left at a time when the site was still yet to be selected. And we encountered greater and greater difficulties, looking for new sites. We went to many places Bunker Hill, yard, the shipyard oh, many, many places. I think Ted Musho can probably give you those lists, the names, many of them. But we were either something is not right, or we were not welcome, or whatever that may be. But anyway, it was just years and years of loss, looking for a site. And when you don t have a site, how can you focus? So therefore we made so many designs for different sites, you know, that by the time we reached the final site, I was exhausted! [Laughs] I really was. But Steve Smith actually held on, and he really kept the project alive. But it s not the same as having a committed client, which Mrs. Kennedy was, and nobody else could be. So how was Steve Smith helpful? Well just, he s a very good executive, and he would search out sites, and ask to go and look at it, and we would make an evaluation. And then he was also the person who was keeping the finances current, and we know, as time goes on, the money started to dwindle, because all these organizational expenses are very, very high, so therefore by the time we got a site, and had the plan to do a building, the amount of money we had got was reduced to a very, very small sum. And Steve knew all that. Steve was in charge in many ways. And there was then a board of directors, yes. They were based in New York. We had the board meeting from time to time. But they were not really a handson board anymore; it was Steve that actually that handled this. And he was very businesslike [-7-]

12 on it. And the project, the fact that we got it built, is thanks to Steve. But the architect-client relationship was gone by then. So there s no correct me if I m not framing this correctly, but what I think I m hearing you say is that Mrs. Kennedy had the passion and the focus. She did. And Steve had organizational ability, and the desire to get it done, but not as much passion for the project, maybe? No, it cannot it just couldn t be for Steve to have that passion. And after all, she was the one that went through this process. She was the one that decided that I should do it. She was the one that knew what she wanted, to be a proper memorial for the President. It was a very personal enterprise, to her. Nobody else could have shared that. Nothing I can say that says something that Steve could have done no! There s no way for Steve to have done it. No one could have done it! Much too personal project. Now she, once the site was selected at Columbia Point, did she come back and approve of the site or anything? I don t know whether she actually approved the selection of that site. By then we had so little choice! We ve just got to get on with it, you know! Columbia Point was not a site that I would have chosen. You probably know why; you live there, you work there. Right! [Laughs] But I think we tried to do our best to make it all right. It was a storage dump, I think, and we had a lot of problem with methane gas! [Laughs] We could put a pipe into the sink it into the ground, we can light it! Oh! [Laughs] What a nightmare to work with! I know! I know. But we finally I mean, these are things which came later, and having been given a site which is and also surrounded by U. Mass [University of Massachusetts at Boston], which is a hunk of a building. It s just so institutional-looking that it was also not a very happy neighbor. I mean, I m being very frank about talking about these things. Now I m looking back, now. But I wasn t happy with it, so I wanted to put it on a special location. At least we can be identified as being alone. I chose the point, and the point is where we are now. Yeah, yeah. That much from that point on, it s a question of making a plan, or a building, [-8-]

13 that is within our means. And there just wasn t enough money left, so we have to be very economical. And I believe the Kennedy family has to come up with quite a lot of money to make it possible. That I know for truth, for fact, that was the case. And no, I can t say that Mrs. Kennedy left the scene entirely. When it came to the final design, I think she did look at it. And she even had a hand in a few things, which I think looking back at it, it s quite important, even though she already left the project, so to speak. She did come back. For instance, she brought Mrs. Mellon [Rachel Lambert Mellon] back. Mrs. Mellon, you know, was an old friend of the family. That s Paul Mellon s wife, Bunny Mellon. And we had the site is very, very there s a big parking lot in the back. It s not a very attractive site. So then we said, We have to do some landscaping. We don t have too much money! And it was Mrs. Mellon that said, I think it should be beach grass. Ah, mm-hmm. She was the one. Is it still growing, the beach grass? Absolutely! It s still growing? She was the one. She brought her gardener there, when Mrs. Kennedy was there, to show to actually plant those beach grass, with nets and so on. Right. And without her, we won t get that beach grass. So that was a great contribution, which I think now still is correct. And it just, it reminds people that the President spent his holidays in such an environment. And then another thing which I think Mrs. Kennedy and I agreed on, and I think it was she that said, I don t want a bronze statue of the President. That s all she said. [Laughs] Not even a bust! She didn t say very many things that she didn t want, but this, she was quite firm on. And I kind of agreed with that. So having seen what was then planned for the exhibition, which of course the Kennedy family all had a hand in it, and I thought it would be inappropriate to do much more when you come to the glass hall. And it was I then said, No statue, but a flag. And she agreed. So she did involve, when the important decisions had to be made. You can put all kinds of flowers and things of that kind, and have lots of things carved on the wall. But I didn t want any of that; I didn t think it would be appropriate, because by then, after having seen the exhibit, you know where President Kennedy came from, the history of the family, and what he had done, the Oval Office, all that sort of thing. Then you emerge into that hall. There should be nothing. Silence. And then should be the flag has to be there. He was President of the United States. And then, people would then walk into that great hall with nothing but their own thoughts, and they can look toward Boston, I guess, and remind them of the city upon the hill. [-9-]

14 I think that was done right. Many of the other things I would have wished to do better. Like what? No, just, by then, I m sad to say that I was so exhausted of those years and years of fighting, trying to find the right site. Make a plan for Site A, Site B, Site C, Site D, and so on exhausted. And without Ted Musho I couldn t have gone on. And also having lost, really, the passion, of a kind, the combination was just too much for me. It was a sad story on my part, personally. I wish I could do it again. It s disappointing that there were so many things that were in no way your fault, or anything you could do anything about. So many years, 1964 to 1978 fourteen years. Not fourteen years of continuous involvement, you know, making progress every step of the way. It was making it, then come back, making it, come back. It s that kind of condition I was in. Do a lot of creative thinking, and then had it change, or refused, and start again. It s that kind of. And how much can one go through, without showing signs of it, as I did? I feel that it was my failing. I would think it would have sapped anyone s creativity, to keep making design after design after design, for the same project. And then with the funding shrinking by the day. Right, right, making it more difficult. Mr. Musho mentioned that, of course, that was also a period of high inflation, in the seventies, and so what money was there was becoming less valuable. Become less. It was a very difficult time for us, but we persevered. You did. Anyway, we do have a building. We do, and it s beautiful! And you all keep it alive. Yes, we do. We love it here! Tell me I suppose, I don t know if we just forget about Bob Kennedy [Robert F. Kennedy], that he was alive for a few years while this was going on. Did he have any involvement? Very involved, now that you mention it. It was Bobby Kennedy that took over this, together with Mrs. Kennedy, in the beginning. And he was, of [-10-]

15 course, very much engaged in politics, so the amount of time he could spend was very precious but very limited. But I would say that he was a very important. If he had been alive he was assassinated in it was 68, or so? Something along that time. Mm-hmm, 68. I would have a part of the President in Bobby Kennedy, you know? Or part of Mrs. Kennedy in him. Because he did have that passion, and of course he knew the President better than anybody else. Even though I couldn t have very much of him, but he was there. But after the assassination, it was just too much, just too much. Too much for her, too much for me, too much for many of us. Too much for the project. That s understandable, if you think about it. He was briefly involved. But those months, I think it must be months 64 he was the one that announced the selection. The New York Times, front page Bobby Kennedy was there. And he continued to be interested in the project with us at least until a year and a half afterwards. And then, of course, then political campaigns started to run, and it would be impossible to get him. And also we felt that we we could understand, we could understand then that it s not possible to chase after him. Sure. How was both of them, actually Bob Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy how were they to work with? I think they both were of one mind. A passionate feeling for the President is in those two persons, Mrs. Kennedy and Bob Kennedy. And then, after that we have Teddy [Edward M. Kennedy]. I call him Teddy. We had Senator Kennedy, also, he was involved. It was Steve Smith and Senator Kennedy that really took over. Again, Senator Kennedy has a lot of political obligations, just as Senator Robert Kennedy as well. So it was difficult for them to be now, the sisters got involved a little bit more afterwards, when Jackie, when Mrs. Kennedy left the scene. They took over more, and they participated in many meetings. And especially in the exhibition space, they had a lot to do with that. Were they very active? Did you get the feeling that they were there more or less just to represent the family? Or were they actively participating? I think when it comes to making the exhibits work, for them, they were involved. And I think it was with Chermayeff, I think. We didn t have too much to do with the exhibits. We had to provide for the mechanical and electrical aspects, but the design was made by Chermayeff and Geismar [Thomas H. Geismar], and they are sort of a graphic design firm very well known. And Ivan Chermayeff is a very good friend of mine, so I followed this project. But I think the Kennedy family were more involved in that. By then, the building was already decided; it was under [-11-]

16 construction. And their interests were then make sure that the exhibit would tell the story properly. Right, right, and it does. I like the whole thing, but it s easy for me to like it because it already it s there. It exists; it s the only thing I ve ever seen. Oh, yeah. They kept many of the things that is now there, and otherwise would have gone, or disappeared. Right. Do you think the building itself Mr. Musho showed me some various designs, going back to the Boylston Street location in Cambridge, and then up to the point. Do you think there are elements that persisted all the way through all the designs? I suppose you can also find something that you say that is the leftover of an earlier idea, but it s very different, because the program is very different. You see, the early idea was to combine the library with the school of government. They were one; they were together. And that would have been the right thing to do, you know. And so the emphasis then is in that kind, and the library is part of a larger whole. But when we moved to Columbia Point, the library was the only thing, so therefore design has to change. It has to change. And the site, of course, is different. Completely. So many program changes, site changes, budget reduction all that has a lot to do with changing the design every step of the way. I wondered if there were things that you had a particular commitment to, in terms of just an image that you wanted to convey about your thought of what would memorialize Kennedy best? I think the one thing we probably kept all through is the transparency of the memorial. A memorial, normally, like Lincoln, like Jefferson, is all enclosed, indoor. Or even, after our library, the Johnson Library [Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library] is also in a huge indoor space. I had always felt that light is important I mean, daylight. And it should be transparent, for all to see. And regrettably, that we it was a budget consideration, we had to go to a glass which is very dark, which I would have not like I would have liked something different. But in those days, the glass technology had not been advanced to such a point that we could do it. Today we can. Today we could have done it, and so when you look at it from the outside, it doesn t look so dark. It would become much more transparent. But in those days, we couldn t. Partly technology, partly budget. It must be terrible to be, I mean in your case, both an artist and technical person. And to have those kinds of limitations must be frustrating! [-12-]

17 That kind of limitation is actually much easier to live with than the emotional aspect, the change of circumstances, the lack of an emotional [unclear], on the part of a lot of people, including myself. Right, right. Do you normally become very engaged emotionally with your projects? In the beginning, yes. You do? Oh, for years I was. But it was towards the end you see, fourteen years of ups and downs, ups and downs. That was difficult. That I thought about it a lot, and when I thought about it more, I say I better forgive myself. But I think that I should have been more stronger. [Laughs] I wasn t. You were the one person who saw it through from beginning to end. Well, that much I can claim. That, I can claim that, but I could have done better for it. But it s you see, a work of architecture is not the architect alone; it s the architect and the client. And the symbiosis is essential to do a good piece of work. When one-half of it s gone, or loses energy, I ll say, it affects the other half. And I just wasn t equal to it. VD: I don t know that you could have done anything. Of course I could, but then, it takes a stronger man! [Laughs] [Laughs] But what you re describing is literally this symbiotic relationship. If one half of it goes away, the other half can t make up for it. Can t make up for it, no. No matter how much you try. That I have always held. I held that belief. I told many architects, young architects, of that. That don t think you are the creative genius; you re only part of the story! [Laughs] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And then, I have reason to believe in that, because I look back at the work that I am proud of, let s say. Invariably there was an important client there. Ah, mm-hmm. [-13-]

18 Without exception! I have five or six projects. I don t want to name them; they re not needed. I would not have been able to produce it without a passionate client. That makes sense, from an artistic perspective. It makes a lot of sense to me. Not so much from a painter s point of view, from a sculptor s point of view, no. Less so. Architecture is a humanistic involvement. It s kind of a it requires a you have to have someone to work with, that started to think about the project in the first place. Whether it s designing a house, or designing a huge monument, you always do that. You always need that. If you don t have that half, you will not be able to create the best work. You can t. It makes sense. So what you ve said that you ve been somewhat disappointed with the outcome, and I know that it must have been exhausting for you. But are there things about the library, aside from the glass, anything else that you re particularly fond of, or proud of? I think the fact that it s on the water. You see, the site selection, I am proud of. Columbia Point in those days was not called Columbia Point. It became Columbia Point because we chose the point. And to put the library right on the sea, almost, was a correct decision, to memorialize the man who was a sailor, who loved the sea, and who loved Boston. Boston was the beginning of his career. And Columbia Point, if there s anything that s good about that site, [laughs] I would say it s that. You can be there, you can be on the sea, and you can look at Boston. And that choice of that site I am proud of. I had to convince a lot of people to get there. You did? Yes. Because we worried about the weather, worried about exposure, worried about lots of things. And the long drive to it, that sort of thing. And I wanted to get I m sorry I have to repeat that to get as far away from U. Mass [laughs], as far away from the housing development. You know the housing development? Yeah, across the way. That was a big problem then. It was an unsafe place, you know. So therefore, if there was anything I could do, if I were given that site, fortunately the site was big enough for me to push this building as far away as possible. [Laughs] Right. Not a very nice thing to say about I don t wish it to be [-14-]

19 I know what you mean. You know what to do with this kind of personal opinion on it. But the choice of the point was an important contribution. Right, yeah. Well, it s a beautiful site. Where else would you have put it, given that site? Right. Right, given that site, and the other available sites. That must have taken some vision, because nevertheless it was on the sea, but nevertheless it was a landfill or something, basically. All landfill, yeah. The whole thing was made up by man, a complete landfill. I think that pretty much exhausts it! That s the story, isn t it? Yeah, it is. I have to say this: that the excitement of the thing is to be selected to do this. It s probably the most exciting moment in my professional career, to be asked to do it. And therefore, the greater that moment that turned out to be, the sadder it became, when it not really fulfilled what it could have been. The circumstances beyond my control, but not all of it beyond my control, so I do contribute a bit to that disappointment. You know, I think what you re saying about the thrill of being invited to do this project made it so much worse when things weren t going right. If it had been a motel or something it s not the same thing! [Laughs] You know exactly what I meant when I said that, that it should have been a great, great project. Well, it was unfortunate, the way some of the things went. Anything along the way, in terms of, just in the course of going through the project, any funny or striking interactions with people who were involved? Members of the Kennedy family, or? Many, many, many. I would single out for number one, Mrs. Kennedy. Then, Bill Walton was very important also. He was advisor to her, and he was very much committed to doing the project. And I had, even long after, before he passed away, long after the project was built, I d ask him. I d say, Bill, write something! Because he knew the whole story, even before I entered the scene! Right. [-15-]

20 And he said, Yes, I will. I will, but he never did, and then he passed away. You know Bill? Have you ever met him? Never met him, no. Oh, he was a great person. So I would say that. And then you have Bobby Kennedy brief, but very important. Brief moments of commitment that that man had, to remember his brother. Did he have anything in particular that you remember that he wanted the library to be or represent? He wanted he just wanted to make sure that the library would reflect what his brother was. You know, it s highly, an abstract kind of thing. Not specific, say, I want it to be small, or big, or white, or black. Not at all that. Okay. Just something that would do justice to the importance of that man. And then of course the rest of the family. They all committed, in one form or another. But Steve Smith contributed a great deal. I can t expect that kind of passion from Steve. That cannot take the place of what Mrs. Kennedy could have done; there s just no way. Or even Bobby Kennedy. But it was without him there would be no Columbia Point. So to take hold of this project, with very diminishing means, with the need to find a site, to get it built quickly Steve made it possible. Right, right. So he stepped in? Hmm? He stepped in when he was needed. He stepped in. He stepped in at the right moment, and did a job that, as well as anyone could have done. Remember that. Those are the we had many meetings, many meetings at Steve Smith s apartment, and many meetings [END OF SIDE A, START OF SIDE B] Okay. One of the things that I was going to ask you is if you remembered any sometimes you remember negative interactions as much as you do anything. And there were a lot of frustrating experiences. Do you remember any particular moments when you just wanted to yell at somebody? [Laughs] [Laughs] Many such moments! Well, I graduated from Harvard. I would have yelled at Harvard! [Laughs] But President Pusey, though, was very [-16-]

21 engaged, as long as he was president, yes. But Harvard could have helped us more, especially but then I think that at that time, though you see, after Vietnam came in as a problem for the country, you know, a kind of disenchantment, it affected us, too. It affected the community, not just students, but also people living in that area, their feeling about what this library would do to Harvard Square. I think they were wrong, but nevertheless, those concerns were not unreasonable. Right. Some of them, one of them even said, Gee, we will be stepping on chewing gum all over the place, you know, that sort of thing, thinking that the Kennedy Library s going to be another Disney World, that sort of thing, which is of course wrong. But I couldn t very well talk them out of it. I tried, but cannot be convincing enough, not with that, at that moment in time. If it were a few years earlier, it would be no problem! America. [Laughs] Kennedy s name was absolutely untouchable. You could almost do everything, or anything, in his name! But a few years later, there was a big change. I sensed that change. That change tells me a lot about politics in Yes. Absolutely. It s a good point. It s very interesting. But it always shifts again. The concern was a little short-sighted, because those things go away. They come and they go. Go away, that s right. I know. But who knew, at the time? Yeah. We re in such a moment now. Right, right. I don t know whether you wanted to talk about any other people in particular. I know I talked to Derek Bok [Derek C. Bok] about, you know, the site thing. Yeah, he took over from Pusey. But I think I don t remember too much of Derek Bok. I think he was his interest was to keep the school of government, and move the library away. I may be wrong in saying that, but that s my feeling. And I think he succeeded. Well, it s the way it happened. He talked a little bit about the and so did Mr. Musho there was an environmental impact statement that apparently lent fuel to the drive to move the library planning away from Cambridge. [-17-]

22 I think environmental impact studies can be interpreted in so many ways. But really, it s the commitment, in this case the commitment of the Cambridge community, and the university, most important of all. And the Metropolitan Transit whatever they call M.T.A.? M.T. I think it s M.T.D. It must be district. [M.B.T.A.] M.T. something like that. Those are the key players in this case, and I have a feeling that they wanted they were afraid of the library, because of the adulation at that time that people paid to the Kennedy, President Kennedy, that it would have created too much tourist mecca, so to speak, you know. I think they all had that feeling, and there s no way for us to talk ourselves, talk them out of it. Is there anything else about the library or its planning that you? I ve spoken as much as I can remember! [Laughs] You re asking me about questions, how long ago 1964 to 1976 or 77, I ve forgotten now. So, it s a long time ago. It is a long time. And we have you ve really been wonderful to share with me your recollections and your thoughts. Because we have the paperwork; we can follow that. But what we wanted to know was more what your feeling about the work was, and what you were trying to do, and that s very helpful. I talk to you as the way it comes to my mind, and I m not talking [unclear] history, so therefore I m quite aware of that. But I m also aware of the fact that I must be factually correct, even though it may sound a little bit like I was complaining! [Laughs] [Laughs] Complaining my fate, not complaining by others, people. I could have done better, for that project. But, I contributed as much time and energy I possible could, from 64 to 78, those fourteen years. And the last part of it is the most difficult, and without Ted Musho, I would say Ted really picked it up, and ran with it when I flagged. I was but I was fortunate to have him, and have Steve Smith! [Laughs] The two of them get a lot of credit for getting it done. Yeah, well and you get a lot of credit for hanging in there. [Laughs] I did! I did hang in there. But that s you know, as I said before, I said to [-18-]

23 create you can t do it alone. Right. That I can vouch for! [Laughs] You know that, yes. Can t do it! Well, anyway, this is all I have to say. Thank you very much! And I hope that I gave you what you You gave me just what I need. Thank you. It s been a wonderful [END OF INTERVIEW] [-19-]

24 I.M. PEI Oral History Transcript Name Index B Bok, Derek C., 17 C Chermayeff, Ivan, 11 G Geismar, Thomas H., 11 K Kennedy, Edward M., 11 Kennedy, Jacqueline Bouvier, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 15, 16 Kennedy, John F., 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 17, 18 Kennedy, Robert F., 10, 11, 16 Mellon, Rachel Lambert, 9 Musho, Theodore J., 2, 7, 10, 12, 17, 18 O Onassis, Aristotle, 7 P Pusey, Nathan Marsh, 5, 16, 17 S Smith, Stephen E., 7, 8, 11, 16, 18 W Walton, William, 2, 3, 15, 16 M Mellon, Paul, 9