Edward F. McLaughlin Jr. Oral History Interview JFK#1, 4/27/1964 Administrative Information

Transcription

1 Edward F. McLaughlin Jr. Oral History Interview JFK#1, 4/27/1964 Administrative Information Creator: Edward F. McLaughlin Jr. Interviewer: Edward Martin Date of Interview: April 27, 1964 Place of Interview: Boston, Massachusetts Length: 20 pages Biographical Note Edward F. McLaughlin Jr. ( ) was an associate of John F. Kennedy [JFK] during World War II and a Massachusetts political figure. This interview focuses on JFK s military service during World War II, his early political career, and his friendship with McLaughlin, among other topics. Access Open Usage Restrictions According to the deed signed October 10, 1972, copyright of these materials has been assigned to the United States Government. Users of these materials are advised to determine the copyright status of any document from which they wish to publish. Copyright The copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of photocopies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. Under certain conditions specified in the law, libraries and archives are authorized to furnish a photocopy or other reproduction. One of these specified conditions is that the photocopy or reproduction is not to be used for any purpose other than private study, scholarship, or research. If a user makes a request for, or later uses, a photocopy or reproduction for purposes in excesses of fair use, that user may be liable for copyright infringement. This institution reserves the right to refuse to accept a copying order if, in its judgment, fulfillment of the order would involve violation of copyright law. The copyright law extends its protection to unpublished works from the moment of creation in a tangible form. Direct your questions concerning copyright to the reference staff. Transcript of Oral History Interview These electronic documents were created from transcripts available in the research room of the John F. Kennedy Library. The transcripts were scanned using optical character recognition and the resulting text files were proofread against the original transcripts. Some formatting changes were made. Page numbers are noted where they would have occurred at the bottoms of the pages of the original transcripts. If researchers have any concerns about accuracy, they are encouraged to visit the Library and consult the transcripts and the interview recordings.

2 Suggested Citation Edward F. McLaughlin Jr., recorded interview by Edward Martin, April 27, 1964, (page number), John F. Kennedy Library Oral History Program.

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4 Edward F. McLaughlin Jr. JFK #1 Table of Contents Page Topic 1 Meeting John F. Kennedy [JFK] during World War II 2 Prank JFK played on McLaughlin 3 Sinking of JFK s boat 4 Reaction to JFK going missing in action 5 JFK s demeanor with other soldiers 6 Return from World War II 7 JFK s 1946 campaign for Congress 9 Attempt to convince JFK to run for governor 11 Beginning of political career 12 JFK s distance from Massachusetts politics as president 14 Spending weekends at the Cape with JFK 16 JFK s political talents 18 JFK s affiliations with veterans groups 19 JFK s legacy

5 Oral History Interview with EDWARD F. :M:!LA.UGHLIN, JR. April 27, 1964 Boston, Massachusetts By Edward Mart in For the J ohn F. Kennedy Library MARl' IN: The following is an interview with Edw;:trd F. McLaughlin, Jr. former lieutenant governor of Massachusetts and currently general counsel for the Metropolitan Transit Authority. The interview took place in Boston. The interviewer is Ed Martin of the Boston Herald. Eddie, your career in politics and, also, in military service parallels that of the late President Kennedy. It's my understanding that you first became associated with the President while you were in service. Can you tell us about the events and the occasions when you first met President Kennedy? MCLAUGHLIN: I'd be glad to, Eddie. This goes back to early I was assigned to Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron 10, and we were shipped to the Solomon Islands. Our base was in Tulagi. There was a large island across the water from Tulagi known as Florida Island on which we had the PT boat base. Shortly after I arrived there, one night after we had had our supper, I was walking along one of the paths between the huts we lived in. I ran into a tall, slender lieutenant, j.g., whom I recognized. I went up to him and introduced myself. We shook hands, and we started to talk about Boston. His grandfather, the old former mayor [John F. Fitzgeral~ Honey Fitz, and my father had been political associates over a number of years. His grandfather on his father's side, old Patrick J. Kennedy, was a former state senator; ahead of my father's time in politics here, but they were very friendly. Of course, my father knew the late President's father. So this was the beginning of our friendship. We sat there for quite a while in the twilight and kibitzed and talked about politics. That was the beginning of

6 -2- a long and very warm friendship. Eddie, did you know him before service? MCLAUGHLIN: No, I never did. I used to see him in Boston once in a while. He was a great pal of the former police commissioner, LJosep~ Joe Timilty, who was also the same period in political life with my father. While Joe was police commissioner, my father was fire commissioner for part of the time. That's where I first saw him, in the company of Joe Timilty one time in Boston. That was prior to his going into the service. MCLAUGHLIN: You never had any connection with him until you met him out there on the island? No, none whatsoever. What were some of the events out there? There seems to be a story that's going to be a legend around Boston involving some phase of the operations out there. If you'd tell it. MCLAUGHLIN: You mean about the $200,000? Yes. Apparently, it was quite a. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, you know, time has a way of playing tricks with you. Among my other duties I was a paymaster. I was in the supply corps. On one particular afternoon--i can't recall now when it was. We didn't have pay days too often out there. The boys had no place to spend their money, but they used to like to play a little cards, and once in a while they might shoot a little crap. So I decided, after we came back from the forward area, that I'd pay some of the boys some of the money they had on the books. SuddenlY~ over a loudspeaking system that we had, this voice intoned, "Lay down to the paymaster's shack," or words to that effect, "on the double if you want to get your money because McLaughlin's $200,000 short. " This was the gist of it. The exact wording, of course, escapes me. Involved in that incident was an ensign, or lieutenant, j.g., at the time, in my squadron, Squadron 10, named Paul Fay. He was affectionately known as "Red" Fay. He was a great friend of the late President. As you know, he was appointed by the President, and still is, the Under Secretary of the Navy. He was involved in it. Well, this caused a great hurrah. In those days I was a flaming redhead and had a temper to go with it. I frequently said afterwards that if I'd ever caught up with Jack Kennedy that day, he never would

7 -3- have been president of the United States because he never would have made it off the island. He subsequently told that story at a banquet that was given for me in 1959 here in Boston--I was a member of the dity council--and it really brought down the house. This was the type of a sense of humor he had. He was a great practical joker. He really raised the devil with me that day. They believed him. They came into that shack, some of them with fire in their eyes. It's turning out to be, as you say, one of the legendary stories about him. But it' s true. The incident took place. I don't mind saying that I got pretty red-necked about it at the time. I look back at it now and laugh and enjoy it. It's a great, warm feeling you have with that type of thing. Eddie, this was before the PI' incident in which his boat was cut in two, wasn't it? rvk::la.ughlin: Yes. We had already gone to Munda for the Battle of Munda. We were stationed over on Rendova. This. was one time we used to go back and forth. One time we were back in Tulagi, which was then a reasonably safe area. It had been secured. This was a rear area then. I don't know what we were doing back there, but we were all back for a time. This was some time prior to that boat incident. : Were you in the area at the time of the boat incident? MCLAUGHLIN: I was up in the area at the time. I remember the night very well. When it happened, it was a very shocking thing to all of us who had become very, very friendly with him. We knew that something had happened. We weren't quite sure what. It took a little while for it to become clear exactly what had transpired. It was an amazing thing. All of us had a great faith in him and his ability to do things and come out, somehow, in situations that, perhaps, somebody else wouldn't quite come through. It was only towards the end, before he was rescued, that we began to have some doubts as to whether he'd make it. While this search for him was going on, I came down with Dengue which is, I guess, some form of malaria, and they shipped me back to Tulagi. I was in the sick bay when they brought him in. He had the bunk next to mine while he was there. If you wanted to see a badly beaten up young man, boy, he was in really bad shape, coral cuts, coral poisoning. But he had fantastic courage. He made very light of it, you know. He really just didn't discuss it too much. He kidded about it. But he didn't have too much to say about it even in later years when he was in politics back

8 -4- home when he first started out. That story was used, as you know, in Readers' Digest. In his first campaign for Congress we used it as sort of a flyer, just to describe the type of man that he was, and the great physical courage and moral courage that he had. But he would resent it if you made much of him -when you introduced him, as I did on many occasions, to meetings of various kinds. He never liked to be made the hero. He didn't want to play the role; he didn't think he was one, really. He did what he thought he had to do at the time, and he. did it to the best of his ability. This was enough for him. He just wanted to let the facts speak for themselves, and he never wanted you to try to gild the lily. Eddie, at the time that he went out on patrol and didn't come back, how was that handled down in that area? I mean, the word is posted up on a board, and then would notice graduad.y get around to the various squadrons that PT-109's crew were gone? MClAUGHLIN: Well, of course, we all operated out of the same bases, but we floated back and forth. It got so when we ran short of boats and equipment, sometimes we'd interchange. There were several squadrons there making up a flotilla of PT boats. Of course, we didn't have all of the boats operational all of the time. We were short of material and spare parts. So there was much interchanging. As a matter of fact, the night that his boat was cut in half, the PT-109, /Jieorgif Barney Ross from Squadron lg was on the late president's boat when that was in Squadron 3. So we interchanged, and it was a very close knit organization. Is this Barney Ross the fighter? M:!IAUGHLIN: No. Barney Ross, who came from Chicago, was a great, big, tall, humorous fellow. He must have been 6 feet 5, weighed well over 200 pounds. He went to Princeton. He was sort of the clown of the group. He was the fellow that kept everybody laughing when you would be inclined to get down in the dumps. To get back to the question, there wasn't any posting of anything. The word got around the base. The boats would be going back and forth from, say, Tulagi up to Rendova, where our base was, up near Munda; that's the base from which he had gone out that night. Just word of mouth, real:cy. Wasn't there some specific period of time when the crew would get written off as presumed

9 MCLAUGHLIN : Well, af'ter a reasonable period of' time. Well, the telegram did come through on Jack that he was missing in action and presumed to be dead. He was given up, really. Apparently, it was quite eventful then when MCLAUGHLIN: When he came back, it was f'antastic. It did a great deal f'or the morale of' the men. They were so happy to see him. And to think that anybody could get through what he went through, and the way he handled the men. Ltape recorder turned of'f'--resume~ What do you mean, Eddie, the way he handled the men? MCLAUGHLIN: Well, you recall f'rom the stories that you've read about it, Eddie, he did a f'antastic job.in keeping up their morale. {jatric'if Mc:M3.hon, who was badly burned, he had in a lif'e jacket, and he actually towed him in his teeth with one of' the straps of' his lif'e jacket. The way he just kept their courage up, kept them moving, kept them out of' harm's way as best he could under just unbelievable circumstances. This story all f'iltered back, of' course. As I said earlier, he didn't like to talk about it too much, wouldn't talk about it. He didn't want to be cast in the role of' a great hero, which, of' course, the f'acts proved that he was. Yet, he did it because this was the thing to do. He didn't do it out of' any heroics; he didn't do it with any f'eeling that this was going to be a great thing and win him a medal or anything. He just did it because he was the commanding of'f'icer; he was responsible f'or this boat and this crew. This is how he looked upon everything he ever did. OUt in that area at that time what would you say that the various crews in the squadron considered him in his role as skipper? What type of' an off'icer was he? MCLAUGHLIN: He was most unusual, really. He could be more f'riendly with the enlisted personnel, as an of'f'icer, than any other of'f'icer could be and kid with them, f'ool with them. And, yet, he could and did maintain great discipline; the crews had great af'f'ection f'or him, great respect f'or him, great conf'idence in him so that no one would ever trespass over the lines that are necessary in any military organization between the of'f'icer and the enlisted personnel f'or reasons of' discipline. This was an ability he had, and he

10 -9- had it all through his life. In all his campaigns he was that way as close and as friendly as I was with him, rrry wife and a lot of other people. You could fool with him and kid with him, but, when he was a candidate in a campaign, there'd come a time when he'd drop the barrier down; the lines would be drawn, and he was the commander of that crew, too. And you respected him for it. Eddie, getting back to his campaigning days after the war. When did you come back?!vciaughlin: I came home from overseas after he did. After this injury he had received in this incident, he came home. He was hospitalized. He was over at the Chelsea Naval [Hospita!T quite a bit. I came home in the summer of '44. I got back to Boston sometime late in June if rrry memory serves me right. I met him somewhere around that time. I don't know how. I knew he was here, or I looked him up. Somehow we got together at that time. Then our paths would cross from time to time. Finally, he was retired, I believe, from the service. I stayed here. I was very fortunate. I was stationed in the South Boston Dry Dock. It was amazing. You were single then, Eddie? MCIAUGHLIN: I was single then. I got married in April of '45. Then I was about to go back for another tour overseas, and the war in Germany ended. Then, if you'll recall, the point system. came out. Those who had enough points for discharge were made eligible. Then the war against Japan ended in August. My eligibility came up, and I was finally discharged. As a matter of fact, it took effect New Year's Eve of l945. During this period, of course, the president was around here getting ready to decide what he wanted to do. It was politics. We used to discuss it. Finally, I was discharged. He made his moves, and we campaigned with him. My wife and I frequently would ride with him various places. The only thing we didn't like about doing it was that Jack. I used to kid him about being the world's worst driver. He loved to go fast, and he didn't care whether it was wet or icy. One night we were going to Lawrence, and it was a bad, bad night. My wife and I thought we'd never make it. We went all the way around. He used to come to the house frequently for dinner. We had a small apartment up on Queensbury Street. My wife, of course, never cooked in her life till we got married. But one dish she learned to make was lobster Newburg. She learned it from rrry mother. Jack liked lobster although, if you've ever been in his company when we were eating, he was a picker. One. I

11 -7- night she went out of her way. Gosh, she put on lobster Newburg and all the fixings and bought a quart of Brigham's ice cream which Jack liked with a hot fudge sauce. In those days that was quite an effort for us. He was getting into his lobster Newburg, which was bought. I'll never forget it. I went down to Masso Avenue to the old Foley's Fish Market. I forget what the price per pound was in those days, but I suppose $4 - $4;.50, which was a lot of money. Jack said to my wife, "Cis, is this canned lobster meat, or is it fresh?" If you ever wanted to see a young bride ready to hit someone over the head with the platter, that was it. He got a big kick out of that. He used to love to tease her about those things. Eddie, this was in the 1946 campaign when he first ran for Congress? MCLAUGHLIN: This incident I'm talking about is just prior to it. This was when he was getting ready to run, and he was traveling. He would speak anywhere whether it was in or without the district in which he provosed to run. Gosh, he traveled all around everywhere. Did you play an active role in that '46 campaign? MCLAUGHLIN: Yes o I worked long and hard in that campaign. We had a headquarters. We used to use Jack's small apartment up in the Bellevue. ~ wife and a girl named Rita Dunlap were the two secretaries. They both worked during the day. ~wife worked for an advertising company, and Rita, up in Tom Dorgan's office. in the courthouse. Then as soon as work was over, everybody would funnel in there about 5 o'clock and grab a bite to eat. Eddie, what was your wife's maiden name? MCLAUGHLIN: Her name was Drake, Elizabeth Drake. She came from New York. We'd come in there at night. The girls would do the typing, and we'd go out and campaign. We had a headquarters for the Boston area down in 18 Tremont Street. Then we had the local wards. We had one in Charlestown. We had one in East Boston, of course. We had the Cambridge and Somerville ones. {Timothy J., Jr.J Ted Reardon handled Somerville. John Droney and others were over in Cambridge. This is what we did. We loved it. It was just like a new way of life to us. Although I had been around politics all my life-- I had grown up in it; my father was in it--this was the first campaign I'd ever participated in. This was the Eleventh Congressional District that took in.

12 -8- MCLAUGHLIN: That's right. That's the fight in which LMichae!T Mike Neville was involved and John Cotter. Gosh, both of those fellows have passed away now. The Falvey girl [Catherine E~ was in it. Gosh, I forget now who else was in it. Jack got a fantastic vote. He almost lapped the field. He was a great campaigner. Worked, he worked like a dog. MARTTir: Do you recall any incident that would show the type of hard campaigner he was? MCLAUGHLIN: Work didn't ever bother him. He'd go from earj.y morning till late at night. Of course, he was not the campaigner then that he was as most people in this country remember him today from his presidential fight. In many ways he was sby and retiring. He was very tall; he was almost gaunt at times. He was light in weight. Somebody said he had a yellow complexion, a jaundiced look. MCLAUGHLIN: He did. He had a jaundiced look about him from all of the medication and from the malaria and everything else, the atabrine. But he had a fantastic smile. When he walked into a room, you knew he was there. He had an ability, when he was talking to an individual, to make that person feel that that person was the only one around, nothing else made any difference. This was a great thing to be able to do as a public figure. So many times it's difficult, and I can tell from my own experience. You'd be talking to one person in a hall, and, not intentionally, your eyes would be darting around to see someone else that was there that may be of importance; that you wanted to make sure you got to before you left that hall. Jack had an ability to make the person he was talking to think that that person's the only one that counts. It won him a great deal of friends and supporters. He had a willingness to work. He didn't mind long hours, hard work, up and down stairs and three deckers, in and out of stores and shops. He would just go, go, go. But, as I started to say, he didn't have the tremendous attractiveness earlier that he developed later although he was an extremej.y attractive candidate. Sometimes he had a habit of walking with his head down. We'd say to him, "Well, here comes John Jones." "Who's he?" We'd give him a qu:i:ck briefing and tell him, "Now, you be sure and say 'hello' to him as you go by." Sometimes he'd ge a little reluctant to do it, 'but eventualj.y he'd get into the swing of things, and he turned out to be a fantastic campaigner. Every night when we'd get through, we'd always end up up at the Ritz having scrambled eggs. He was a great man for eating scrambled eggs and drinking milk. Or, if it wasn't too late, you'd get into an ice cream soda or a sundae, which he liked with lots

13 -9- of hot chocolate sauce on it. During the day, frequently, when >ve' d campaign, we'd go down to Thompson's Spa. He loved chocolate i ce cream sodas. I'll never forget one day we were in there with him. He'd eat the ice cream out of it first. Then he'd sort of sheepishly look at the fellow 'behind the counter and say, "Would you mind putting just a little bit more ice cream i n there?'' The fellow from the counter wouldn't know who he was. He wouldn't know whether to put it in or, if he did put it i n, whether to charge him or not. We used to kid Jack about it all the time. We used to tell him he used to get two for one. These are little things you remember about him, about a man who turned out to be one of the truly great men in this century. Eddie, you carried on your association with him into the '52 Senate fight when he first went for the Senate? MClAUGHLIN: Yes. After Jack was elected in '46 in the primary. o It was an early primary. It was i:q. June of that year. Of course, he had no problem with being reelected after that in '48 and '50. In 1 48, some of us tried to convince him that he ought to become a candidate for the governorship. As a matter of fact, we were out getting signatures for him. A gang of us got together; we got the papers out. This was in 1948? MClAUGHLIN: after his first term in the Congress. That was the year that he finally decided not to run. Jack's desires were more in the Congress, international, that type of politics, although he gave very serious thought to running at that time. That's when he didn't run, and the late Paul Dever did run and was elected. Then Jack set his sights on the Senateo In 1952, he did run for the Senate after, as you know from other people you've spoken with, 1vaiting for the decision made by the then two-term Governor, Dever, as to whether he would seek reelection or whether he would run for the Senate. There was debate at that time among a lot of Jack's friends as to whether or not he should make the move for the Senate or for the governorship. The feeling, I think, was among many people that he could very easily win the governorship if Dever elected to move for the Senate; that his fight with {ffenry Caboi7 Lodge would be a very difficult one. There were those, I think, who felt that Dever, having been a two-term governor, also having been, years before, an attorney general for a number of years, had a better base across the commonwealth as a statewide candidate than did the late president. But as things turned out, Governor Dever sought

14 -10- the third term in which he was defeated in a close fight by Governor ["Christian AJ Herter. Jack did seek the Senate, and in a real tough fight, as you recall, he won by just a little over 70,000 votes. That fight wasn't decided till about 6 in the morning when we were finally sure he had won. Eddie, going back again to that 1948 consideration to run for governor. Had he decided to go for governor then, who would have been his opponent on the Republican side? MCIAUGHLIN: /J.ober.f/ Bradford was the governor. He had defeated Maurice Tobin in That was the year that Jack became a congressman. In '46, as a matter of fact, before Jack had formally announced his candidacy for Congress, there was an effort made by some of the then Governor Tobin's associates to convince Jack to run for the lieutenant governorship on the Democratic side with Governor Tobin. As a matter of fact, my wife and I were going to dinner with him this night. It was in February of 1946 sometime. I was there in the apartment when a discussion was held with regard to that. As we went down to have some dinner, he said to me, "Eddie, what do you think?" I'll never forget it. To me at that time, the lieutenant governor's position was just beyond belief. We were young, and to have a statewide position of that nature was just almost something beyond your ken. I said to him, "Gosh, Jack, we've got enough moxie breaking in here and trying to run you for the Congress, let alone running statewide." He seemed to agree with that. Then he said, "I made up my mind I want to go to the Congress." That was the end of that discussion. I never had another discussion with him about it. In '48, after he'd been one term in the Congress, a lot of us felt that he could move. Of course, we had great faith in him. We didn't think there was anything he couldn't do. We wanted him to do it, many of us. Eddie, do you think he had aspirations to the White House even back then? MCIAUGHLIN: If he did, I don't ever recall him discussing them. He had great ambition, but he was young, too, at the time, and he wasn't as deeply tied to his political life as he later became. We often wondered what he would have done had he not won the first congressional fight; we often wondered what he would have done had he not been successful against Senator Lodge. What would have been the results if they hadn't gone our way. MARI'IN: Did you think at the time that he had a chance against Lodge?. I

15 -ll- MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. I never had any doubt in my mind that he. would lick him. I knew it would be a hard f'ight, but I knew the great desire that Jack had f'or it. The way that he worked on that f'ight was unbelievable. He did things that you just wouldn't think a human being could physically keep doing. Of' course, prior to running f'or it, he criss-crossed this state weekend after weekend speaking in any place that he could get, f'or groups of' all kinds, all denominations, all political af'f'iliations to let them see him, let them get an i dea of' what this man was like. He earned that one. There' s no question about it. He worked very, very hard. Nobody could have worked any harder. Eddie, you also began a political career in the commonwealth. When did that start? MCLAUGHLIN: Well, as I said to you earlier, Eddie, I grew up in politics. My f'ather was in it. That's all I really saw around my home. He was in it all his lif'e. He was in the State Senate, House of' Representativ.es, the old Nine Man Council, closely associated with many mayors starting with the late President's grandf'ather, Honey Fitz, and with {James Michae!T Curley and then later with Fred Mansf'ield. So that this was something that I had a liking f'or, I suppose, somewhat naturally. And my appetite was whetted, of' course, by my experience in campaigning f'or the president. So after he won the Senate f'ight in 1952, I began to give very serious thought about running f'or of'f'ice myself'. At the time I was an assistant United States attorney, having been appointed one by President {Harry!fJ Truman in The reason I was appointed is that Jack, who was then a congressman, f'ought hard to get me the appointment, and, but f'or that, I never would have had it. So I then had almost three years because I went there in February of' After Jack was elected to the Senate. We lost the presidency, as you will recall. President LDwight D~ Eisenhower def'eated Mr. LAdlai E~ Stevenson. These jobs being politically patronage, I knew that my days were numbered, but I had set a time limit f'or myself' in the position as three years in any event. So in January of' 1953, I sent in my resignation to take ef'f'ect the 28th of' February. I was the f'irst member of' the staf'f' to resign. I went into private practice with the view in mind that I was going to try to run f'or political of'f'ice. I assessed the situation. I was then living in ijyde Park in the Readville section. I did not come f'rom there originally. I came f'rom the South End and spent most of' my lif'e in Jamaica Plain. So I really had no political base there. The representatives in the ward were pretty sturdy men at the time. But there had been a new charter put into ef'f'ect in Boston, the Plan A Charter which we still have. The city council was elected under it f'or the f'irst

16 -12- time in 195lo I thought there was an opportunity in a citywide contest, and I ran in 1953 with the blessings of Jack. He was very helpful to me. I was lucky. I was nominated, and I was elected. I was reelected in '55, reelected in '57. In '58 I ran for Congress. The congressman at the time was ~Laurene~ Larry Curtis. It was basically a Republican district, but growing more and more Democratic. {Jackson J~ Jack Holtz had tried twice and almost caught him the first time in '54; he lost by about 1800 votes. He wanted me to try in '58. I discussed it with the then Senator. I got into the fight, but LJohrjf Jack Saltonstall was in it. Head to head I knew that that wouldn't have been too difficult a nomination knowing the makeup of the district. But then young {Joseph, JrJ Joe Mulhern jumped at the last minute. He and I cut up between the two of us some 25,000 votes. I think it was around 12.5 or 13,000 votes. Saltonstall got the nomination. It was really a very close primary fight. Then he went on and made a good fight against Curtis, but curtis prevailed by about 5 or 6,000 votes. In '59 I ran for reelection for the council again. I won. I was then presi~ent of the council. Then in 1960 I was reelected president of the city council. In 1960 I ran for lieutenant governor. I was nominated in the convention, again in the primary. I was elected. Of course, that was the election in which the Senator was elected President. Did he give you any direct support in any phases of your political career, Eddie? MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, yes. He would do it in his own fashion. I didn't think it was fair to him to get him embroiled in contests where there were other men, also Democrats, this being primarily a Democratic city, who had supported him,too, perhaps; not to the extent that I had, but, nonetheless, they were supporters. I never felt that it was a fair thing to get him involved like that. But he did certain things and made certain things available to me that were most helpfulo Eddie, there was some criticism of the president that, once he went down to Washington, he forgot the interests of those who supported him and their careers in politics; that he kept himself somewhat aloof from the political activities within the state. Aside from one specific instance of the fight for the control of the Democratic State Connnittee at the time that {John M~ Pat Lynch M::IAUGHLIN: I know that there was this criticism. I used to discuss it with him. I always felt that, as the new, young leader of a large segment of the

17 -13-: Democratic party with a different outlook on government than, perhaps, some of our predecessors, he ought to assume the control of the party and the leadership of the party. Eddie, under normal circumstances wouldn't the governor himself be the MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. This is so. This is absolutely so as a political matter. I always felt that he ought to at least be more deeply involved in it. We discussed it many times. He had his reasons for not wanting at that time to become deeply involved. He wanted to get established. He used to argue with me, as you've just said, that this is a state problem; the governor, when he is a Democrat, has that right and ought to handle that situation. On the other hand, I always felt that he represented, as I said, another type of person, perhaps, a new young element that was coming along, and that his voice was needed in the party circles. Eventually, he did do this. He did it in the fight for the chairmanship of the Democratic State Commit~ee. Then, gradually, he became more and more interested in it. He and Dever eventually worked out a rapport and an understanding. But you have to remember that fellows like Governor Dever and the present Speaker of the Congress, who was then the majority leader, had been around a long, long time. They had their way of doing things. They had an understanding of each other's ways of doing things. I think that they looked at the late president in those days as a young, up and coming, capable public figure. But I really feel that they felt "Don't rush too fast." And Jack had great deference to them; he didn't want to offend. He would have his moments of chafing at the bit, and I think perhaps some of us who were chafing at the bit with him and anxious to go added to that. But eventually I think it worked out well. There were differences of opinion, but so far as him turning his back on people who were helpf'ul to him, he never turned his back on me. Eddie, coming from a family that was long associated with Massachusetts politics, do you feel that the president, although he had a deference to the socalled old-time pros, kept himself aloof from them? He had no associations with the Curleys. MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, none whatsoever. None whatsoever. And he had his reasons. They were sound. In fact the Curley situation goes back to his grandfather. It took a lot of courage to maintain his view on that matter under great pressure. He is to be admired for it. He had no association, really, with, for example, Paul Dever. They maintained a relationship, but Paul Dever was another political

18 -14- generation ahead; Maurice Tobin the same way. J ohn McCormack was even further, two generations, removed in the political sense. These were differences that were not easy to meld together. Jack was independent, He held his own views. And he spoke his views, even with his father. His father had a great influence on him, but I know that he sharply disagreed many times with his father. He maintained his independence on his political thinking certainly. So this was the man. He would listen to you. He'd listen to your suggestions, but he'd make up his own mind. This was the great respect I had for him. I could disagree with him on a political issue, and we might argue about it. But, in the end, i t vms his decision to make on which he would rise or fall, and he made the decisions. I would have to a.ay that he made them right most of the time. The record proves that. MARTirif: Eddie, you were socially associated with him during his career as a senator. Do you recall any occasions when you'd meet with then Senator ~ennedy down at ijyannis Port? MCIA.UGHLirif: Well, my wife and I, of course, were very friendly with him socially before our family started to come along. We spent many weekends, and weeks, down at the Cape. It was a part of my life that I look back on with great relish. It was always very stimulating to be there because it was a family that would sit around in a very informal way; they were great kidders; they would argue like the devi l among themselves; and they were always playing games that would require some mental gymnastics. At the dinner table or at the lunch table when the father was there, he, of course, was the presiding officer. You discussed what Mr. Kennedy thought ought to be discussed at that given moment. I have memories of this type of a relationship that was really fascinating. I don't really think I ever enjoyed anything more. They were wonderful folks. They were very kind and very thoughtful. When you were there, anything you wanted was at your disposal. They were really great people to be associated with. I had a lot of fun. And I miss it. In 1948 our first youngster came along, and then we had them quite regularly thereafter till we got up to five. We didn't see him so much; once in a while he did get to the house for dinner, but, as he became a senator, he had less and less time to socialize back home. He'd be going across the country. The more prominent he became, the more speaking engagements he took on a nationwide basis. So your lives, because of the avenues you were following. You just didn't have the same opportunity to socialize the way you used to. When I'd go to Washington, I'd always see him, kibitz with him. Then, of course, when he became president, you naturally saw less of him although my

19 -15- wif'e and I visited him two or three times while he was in the White House. He'd always take the time to sit down no matter how busy he was, what the problems might be that were pressing on him. He'd always give you ten, f'iteen, twenty minutes just to talk and kid and f'ool. He never really changed that way. Of' course, he just didn't have the time to do the things that you would like to do with him, and, I'm sure, that he would have liked to have done himself'. In these visits, Eddie, what direction would the conversation take? Was he f'orever interrogating you about events back in the home state? MClAUGHLIN: Well, he had a way about him that, if' you got to know him, you got used to, and you were ready f'or. He would talk about your f'amily. He used to love to kid with my wif'e. Then, suddenly, he'd change the subject, and you'd be of'f' into something serious, something political perhaps. He might ask me a question about a specif'ic incident that took place or, maybe, a vote that I might have taken on some matter. He probed; he kept very well inf'ormed. He knew what was going on. You'd be amazed the things he would ask when I was lieutenant governor the f'ew times I was down there and talked with him. He had his f'inger on the pulse of' Massachusetts. Don't you think he didn't. He knew what was going on. He asked very incisive questions. I can't think of' any specifics at the moment, Eddie, but this would be the general tenor of' the conversation. But, always, he'd have a joke or a kidding remark to make. The f'irst time he saw me af'ter I was elected was when he came up to make that great speech, the "City on the Hill." I was designated to be the committee of' one to greet him, when he got to the State House. It was on January 9, l96l. I had just been inaugurated lieutenant governor. As he walked up the stairs, of' course, it was a madhouse, fantastic, trying to keep the crowds away f'rom under the arch. He looked up and shook hands and said, "Well, Eddie, you'vec.come a long, long way." I burst out laughing. I said, "You haven't done bad yourself', Mr. President." He just laughed. This is the way he was. Then he could become very serious. But that was one of' the greatest speeches I ever heard. I have a picture on the wall of' my of'f'ice when he's making that speech. I'm on the platf'orm with him with then Governor LJohn A~ Volpe, the Speaker of' the House John Thompson, and the president of' the Senate John Powers. It's a picture I value a great deal. I have the speech with it. It was a fantastic performance. MARriN: Eddie, when was the last occasion that you visited the President and talked to him?

20 -16- MCIAUGHLD'f: Let me see. It was in the spring of 1962.* I had announced for governor, and I had taken a week off. We were coming back, and we were invited to the White House to a concert by Mrs. Kennedy. I saw him briefly on the occasion and kibitzed a little. I had seen him for a longer period about a month and a half before. I think it was in February of the same year when he swore {James A.J Jim Reed in as an assistant secretary of the Treasury. Jim was also in Pr with us out there. Jim was an usher at my wedding, and he was an usher at the President's wedding. So we were very friendl. When Jim was appointed, the President did an unusual thing. He swore him in himself in the Cabinet Room. We were all invited down to the swearing in, and then Jim had a party that night. So I saw him for, oh, fifteen or twenty minutes on that occasion after he swore Jim in--just my wife and I. We just talked generally about the old days, and we talked some politics. Then, of course, I got into the campaign. Gosh, you know, '63 I saw him in the summer. I'm trying to figure where it was. I don't recall. Then this past summer I had a cottage right across a little creek from his cottage, and I used to see him flying in all the time. I met him up at otis a couple of' times. But it's hard, Eddie, to remember the dates. Once in a while I'd be over at otis and see him when he came in. But he was under great pressure, and, you know, you hated to bother him, really. I know that summer when he lost his youngster, I didn't have the. It's awfully difficult to write on those occasions. At least I find it so. MY wife wrote him a note. We had lost a youngster ourselves in 1953 by drowning, and so we could appreciate what it meant to lose a baby. I always remember, on that occasion, the first message I received after it became public our baby had died was from Mr. Kennedy in behalf of Jack. Jack was in Europe. These are some of the things that you remember. Eddie, if you were asked to name the one great talent he had to make him successful in political life, what would you say it would be? MCIAUGHLD'f: I don't think you can put it in one great talent, Eddie. I think he was a combination of talents. He had great perception. He could see through things, and he could cut through things and get right to the heart of the matter. He was very incisive. This mental ability that he had to do these things was a great asset to him. There's no question in my mind. He had a great power of cencentration. He could read and absorb things very rapidly. He could listen to you and absorb and take things apart. He could say why he thought your thinking was wrong. This type of mental gymnastics *Note: Mr. McLaughlin later remembered a meeting with the President in October 1963 at a Democratic dinner.

21 -17- that he was able to perform, I think, was one of his greatest assets. Then, when you have that ability plus a great deal of courage. Some people will probably say it's easy to be courageous when you're well to do and you have that kind of security. I don't think that that's so. There are many people who have that kind of security that don't have the type of moral courage that was so essential for him to display on many, many occasions. I think the combination of these factors made him the type of a man that he was and made him the leader that he was. The great tragedy is we're never going to know how great he might have been. He laid the foundation for a whole new period in this country economically, politically, and, in many senses, in an international basis. I think that we're now seeing coming into fruition the houses being built on the foundation that he laid, I think when the history books are written, that this will be so. Eddie, this may be a somewhat difficult question and, perhaps, slightly unfair in the light of the President's great success. Can you recall or can you point out any significant faults he had, as you remember, along his career and your association with it? MCIAUGHLIN: Well, every human being has his faults. I suppose the late President had his along with myself, you, everybody else. It's hard for me to judge him on that basis because I suppose that my view is somewhat colored. I knew him so long; I knew him so well and so closely that, if there were faults that other people would criticize him for, I could very readily forget about them. Some people were critical of the fact that he was never on time. Something would always come up at the last minute. He hadn't taken his third shower or his third hot water tub that day, and he was going to haver. that, and the devil take the hindmost. These things annoyed some people. I think if I were going to be critical, sometimes he could be very cutting. Sometimes he could take off on an associate and, without regard as to who was around him if he was angered, really take your head off. He never did it to me. I even remember saying to him one day, "Boy, I'm glad I'm not working for you because you and I wouldn't last five minutes. One of the two of us would be right out that window." And he'd laugh about it. Then, he'd cool off just as rapidly as he got mad. But he could hold a grudge; he could hold a dislike. I don't know that that's a fault. I think we all do those things. He was human. He had his likes and dislikes. He had his idiosyncrasies. He'd have French cuffs on, and he wouldn't have any cuff links so he had to tie a piece of string through it to hold it. These were the little things that you remember about him. I suppose if you thought about it long enough,

22 -18- you'd remember hundreds o~ things. : President Kennedy, having been a veteran, Eddie, was he close to veterans when he ~irst came out o~ service? Did he a~~iliate himse~ with types o~ veterans' groups? MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, he did. He had a great interest in the veterans, in their problems--a great understanding o~ their problems as well. In February o~ 1946, i~ my memory's accurate now, we did ~arm the Lieutenant Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. Post in the VFW--the number was in the Parker House on a Saturday a~ernoon. This, o~ course, was named in memory o~ his brother, Joe, who had died in action as a pilot ~or the Navy in Europeo Jack was the First Commander; I was the Senior Vice Commander; Jim Reed, I think, was the Junior Vice Commander; [Torbert ~ Torby Macdonald was in it. They were quite a gang. Those names come to me quickly.now. Jack took a great interest in it. He was much concerned about it. He wanted the Post to really ~ill a role that was necessary in his mind and in the minds 0~ others; in mine as well, at that time. This Post grew rapidly. We had some very ~ine ~ellows in it. It ~inally got up to a membership o~ about 500. The ~irst time we went on display was in his ~ight ~or Congress in '46. I think we put 150 or 200 men on parade in the Bunker Hill Day Parade which was the day be~ore the primary in I have pictures o~ it as we were coming down Bunker Hill Street. We had a big sign, and Jack was out leading the gang. They all wore dark pants, white shirts, and dark ties. They were a pretty good looking bunch o~ young ~ellows. All veterans; all ~ellows who had been overseas and had been in combat. They came on parade that day, and with that group he really stole the show. It was quite an impressive sight. That year, too, they had a VFW National Convention in Boston. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. He had been nominated then. I think it was in August; that was the National Convention. 0~ course, we paraded in that one, too. He marched in that parade? MCLAUGHLIN: Well, he marched part o~ the way, Eddie. What do you mean, part o~ the way? MCLAUGHLIN: There's a story that goes with it. We're marching

23 -19- along, in any event. Of course, he had then become pretty well known. He was tall and had a great smile. The women, particularly--gosh, they were yelling at him. We were walking down Tremont Street. If I remember, we ended up in Park Square some place. I forget where the parade was to end. Anyway, it was getting close towards the end of the parade. As we were heading down Tremont Street, we were just about to the corner of Boylston (St. ) near the Touraine Hotel. Suddenly, he turned to me and said, "Well, okay, Mclaughlin, you're on your own. Take charge of the troops." I said, "Where the devil are you going?" He looked at me and started to laugh. I said, "Come on. Where are you going? We have to finish this parade. We've got to get back to the hotel. There's a reception back there." "No," he said. "I'm leaving you in charge. I'm on my way to the airport. I've got a date in New York tonight." The next thing I know he's running across Tremont Street, he goes through the police line, and he's disappeared. We kidded about it afterwards. He got a great kick out of it. He said you ought to have seen the look on my face when he told me what he was about to do. But he'd never given any warning. You know, he never said to me earlier or anything that he was going to take off. This was how he was. He was a bachelor and a handsome looking fellow. At that time that was just the way he was. We used to kid about it all the time. MClAUGHLIN: A date came ahead of a parade. It sure did. In summation then, Eddie, do you have any other feelings you'd want to add on President Kennedy1 MClAUGHLIN: Well, Eddie, you know, the longer we sit here, and the longer we talk, the more things I suppose I'll remember. I'm searching my memory now back to That's twenty-one years; that's a long time. I think I've given you enough to at least give you my views as to the man. This was a man of many facets, man of many talents. He was a good man. He was a brilliant man in many ways. Only, perhaps, after you and I have long since left this life will his true worth be knovm by the people who come after us. When the history books are written, I'm satisfied he's going to go down as one of the truly great leaders not only in the history of this country but in the history of the world. As I said to you earlier, many of the things that are happening today, many of the good things that are happening; to try to bring order out of chaos economically in this country and the question of peace around the world. The foundations for these things were laid by the late President. Personally,