ORAL HISTORY PEGGY A. QUINCE

Transcription

1 ABA Senior Lawyers Division Women Trailblazers in the Law ORAL HISTORY of PEGGY A. QUINCE Interviewer: Christine David Graves Dates of Interviews: July 29, 2009 September 21, 2009 September 29, 2009

2 THIRD INTERVIEW September Ok, this is Chrissy Davis Graves again with Chief Justice Quince. This is our third and final interview and today is September 29, Ok, Justice Quince, I think we last left off with finishing up your tenure at the Attorney General's Office. Before we start with your appointment to the Second District Court of Appeal, let's talk about your family, personal life a little bit. How long had you been practicing by the time you had your first child, Peggy? Well, it couldn't be more than a little over a year because I finished law school in December of '74, actually, and my degree says '75 and -51-

3 worked and Peggy was born in '77. (Laughter) So I had been out of law school for a couple of years and working for a couple of years before Peggy was born. And how old were you when you had Peggy? Oh, I was on the verge of 30, I would say 29, but in a few months I actually turned 30, yep. Did you work full time? I did. I worked full time. Well, you know, quite frankly, it did not affect me as much as it did some women, because my father lived with us. I guess I didn't tell you. The story of when I was at home with a baby for several weeks and just sitting around talking with my Dad, and he asked me when was I going to go back to work. And I said, oh, probably in a few weeks, I need time to find someone to take care of the baby, and so he says to me, what's wrong, you don't think I can take care of the baby? And I said, "no, that isn't it, but you are retired, you have worked hard all of your life. You don't need the stress of taking care of a baby, and he said, "well, I'd like to take care of the baby and he said to me, almost verbatim, "I worked all of my life and I never had a chance to see my children grow up except from afar, and so I would like to see my grandbaby grow up." That is awesome. So he knew he wanted to move..? No, he actually had already moved with us, and he said he wanted to take care of the baby, so that's what he did and not only did he take care I

4 of my baby, but I had a friend who had a baby a week later, and he took care of both of them. Wow, you can't get any better than that! Not only did he take care of both of them, he would go off for the weekend and he would take the babies with him. That is awesome. What was a typical day back then as you were a new mother and starting a new career? You know, I think our day was pretty much the way a normal working day was. I got up in the morning, I started out by breast-feeding the baby and during the course of the day your breast milk is wreaking havoc later. I'd work all day, and I would come home and feed the baby. During the day my father would have given her a bottle, of course. My husband and I cooked dinner, and it was really pretty much a normal day, except I did not have the hassle of getting a little baby ready, and taking her somewhere, or even having to have someone come in and wait for them to get there before I leave. I could leave at any time I wanted to because my dad was right there. And he was, quite frankly, he was much better with the baby than I was. It was just magnificent to see them together. How long did this go? How much longer did you live in D.C. at that point? Let's see. We moved to Florida maybe a year later in And when we were getting ready to move to Florida. we told him that we were

5 going to move to Florida, that Fred's mother was not well, and he was perfectly free to move with us if he wanted to, but he didn't have to, and he said "well, I have always wanted to live in Florida, so I think it's a great idea." So he moved to Florida with us. He continued to take care of the baby and it was while we were in Florida, actually in Bradenton, but we transitioned into Tampa, that I had my second child, and he took care of her, too. What year did you have your second child? 1980, they are 3 years apart. Same month. Oh really? And you have two kids? I have two daughters, Peggy and Laura. How long did your father take care of them? He actually took care of them until he died in 1986, which was really a very traumatic time for all of us. My husband and I were at work the day he got sick. I mean he had been sick for a while. He had had a triple by-pass, a valve replacement, but the day that he got sick and had to go to the hospital and never returned, my children were home with him and by that time, let's see, Peggy was the one who called 911, and went outside in the yard to make sure that the 911 people came to the right house and took care of all of that, so... That's a big responsibility for a 9-year old. Yeah, and then she called us and we went to the hospital, came home and then we went to the hospital. My 6-year old, Laura, for several

6 months afterwards was very distraught. Her teachers called me and we had a conference because she was just sort of lethargic and not responding well in school and one day she opened up enough to one of the teachers and said "yes, she was still very upset 'cause she had lost her best friend. So my husband and I talked about it and we were considering taking her to see a counselor. But for one reason or another we didn't get one right away and she then started, and the teacher started reporting that she was back into the groove, and she was kind of a talkative, chatty kid. So they were very concerned when she wasn't doing that anymore, but she got back into it. But for a while she was really upset that he wasn't there anymore. Then of course it was the transition into taking them now to daycare situations. Can you kind of describe how your schedule changed at that point? You know, it's one of those situations, I always liked to go to work kind of early, and they were both in a private school at the time -- a monastery school. They had some early hours and some late hours at the other end, so we would get them there at a time when we need to be at work and then you had to pick them up by at least 6 o'clock. So that's how we worked it out. Some days, my husband did, and some days I did, just depending on what our schedules were. It was just so different because before, even with after school activities, my father was always there to pick them up directly after school or after whatever activities they may have been involved in, so now my husband and I

7 were trying to juggle and do these kinds of things. Even something as simple as school trips, my father was always there to drive the kids on school trips and now Fred and I had to find the time to do those things. Because all the parents were suppose to take turns at least coming to school activities, taking kids on field trips, and so we had to start juggling our lives to be able to do those kinds of things, but luckily for me I was working at the AG's Office, and it was a much more family friendly environment, especially back in those days. So that certainly helped a lot. And where was your husband working at that time? Did he still have his own firm? Yes. Let's see when we first moved to Tampa, he had been at the State Attorney's Office in Bradenton and then he was transitioned into the State Attorney's Office in Tampa. But I think at that point, he only stayed another year or so, and so, yes, he had gone into private practice with several other attorneys. He had more of a longer day, so I ended up doing more of the coming home at regular hours. So, you shared the majority of it? Right, we would get the children together in the morning together. You know with two girls, you've got to do their hair every day and my husband could do hair as well as I could, and we would both do someone's hair. While he was making breakfast, I was normally making sure that the kids got dressed and that their lunch was made. -56-

8 And so we shared that way. In the evenings, normally I was the one who came home and started dinner, although quite frankly they much preferred a dinner that he cooked. He was a much better cook than I was. So basically, the days changed because even with something like an after work activity, say a Bar meeting, when my father was alive, we always knew we could go to any Bar activity and not have to worry about getting a sitter. Then, of course, once my father died, those kind of issues came up. And sometimes one of us would go and sometimes both of us would go if we could get a sitter in time. Well you said that the AG's Office was family-friendly, do you recall any issues you might have had as being a woman and a mother as compared to men who were fathers? Not really, because you know it really was a matter of if you have leave that you could take and if you had your work caught up. If you wanted to use your leave because you wanted to be home with your children, and I would always stay at Easter, take off a couple of day just so the kids and I could do some things together. I mean, I wouldn't take a whole week, but several days of a week. And I just don't recall that it was ever, ever an issue at the AG's Office. It was really just a matter of making sure that I did my work, and yes there were times when I actually had to bring work home because I couldn't stay any later than say 5:30 or quarter of 6:00, however, much time it took me to get to pick them up by 6:00 pm. I would take work home with me. For the -57-

9 most part I would wait until after dinner was over and the kids were bathed and doing their homework, or whatever the situation might be that night before I would start any kind of work from the office, and that was another great thing, because it was appellate work, it was the kind of work that you could do at home. So, it was really great. And so my husband never felt pressured to come home at any particular hour because he knew I was in the kind of situation that I could be there. That's great. Did you guys take a lot of family vacations or travel a lot when the kids were growing up? We traveled some, but I'll have to tell you my big secret. From the time my younger child was about 2, until the older one got to be about 15, every summer I would take them to my sister's and brother-in-law's and they would be there for 6 weeks during the summer. By themselves? Yeah, I wouldn't be there, my husband wouldn't be there. I had a sister who lived in North Carolina. One who lived in D.C. And my brotherin-law lived in Maryland right outside D.C. and so I would take them to my sister's house who lived in North Carolina and they would be with her for a week or so, and then she would take them to my sister in D.C. and my sister in D.C. would take them to my brother-in-law and I would, at the end of 6 weeks go to one of their houses to pick the children up. So my kids always had a great 6 weeks in the summer. Gave us a wonderful break. But we would also take trips together and a -58-

10 lot of times it was Bar association things, or sorority, I'm still very active in my sorority, so it may have been sorority. My sorority has a national meeting every two years. And they have a regional meeting every year, and so I might be taking them to some of those kinds of things. The National Bar Association also has a national meeting every year and so I would take them to those kinds of meetings. And so a lot of the traveling we did really was a part of going to association meetings. What do your daughters do now? The younger one, Laura, is an accountant and she lives in Baltimore. Okay. And the older one, actually, just finished law school this summer at St. Thomas. And so I believe she's taking the Bar exam in February. I don't envy her. I told her for years,... when she first finished, and she's my older child, she's 31 or something like that, and when she finished undergraduate school, she wasn't sure what she wanted to do and she worked and I always tried to tell her, don't think about going to law school because I'm a lawyer and your father is a lawyer. You have to go to law school for yourself. Law school is nothing to play with. Then one summer three years ago, she and her sister were living together in Orlando in an apartment together and she came to me and said, "Mom, the younger one said "Mom, I have a new job, I'm moving to -59-

11 Baltimore." And the other one said, I'm moving to Miami to go to law school. So, I said okay if that's what you want to do. Let's talk about your judicial career. When did you apply to the Second District Court of Appeal. Well, I'm trying to think if it was I believe I applied for an opening on the Second District Court of Appeal. And actually my name was sent to the Governor along with 3 other names. But at that point the statutes said you were only supposed to send 3 names, they had sent 4 names, and so when it was sent back to the committee my name got chopped off. But then the next year, in 1993, there were 3 openings on the District Court of Appeal. Someone had retired and the Legislature had given the Second District two additional judgeships. So I applied again, and was appointed to one of those judgeships. So that would have been by Governor Chiles? By Governor Chiles. Started there January 4, What made you decide to become a judge or apply for a judgeship? You know, I don't know. I really never thought about it. A lot of young people you talk to today will tell you, yeah, I want to be a judge, but quite frankly when I went to law school, I never thought about it. I didn't know any judges. I appeared before judges, but I just never thought about a judicial career. I worked for years. I had been a lawyer, but 1992, which was the first time I applied, I had been a lawyer since 1975, so that was 17 years or so. But I still to this day. I question I M784 I

12 what made me decide to do it. And I think it was a combination of having been an appellate lawyer for a long time and I thought, let me see if I can serve in a different capacity. How old were you when you got appointed? Well, let's see, 1973, ah I mean 1993, 1948, I was 45? Yeah. What was it like starting there? You know, when I think back on that it was so different being an appellate lawyer and being an appellate judge. As an appellate lawyer or any kind of lawyer for that matter, you have a certain leeway. I mean as long as you are not lying, or dishonest, or anything, you have some flexibility in your arguments, either in the written form or in the oral presentation, but when you are a judge, you are really trying to get it right. You are trying to make the best decision that you possibly can based on the facts, circumstances, and the law that is applicable to the issues, and so the thinking really is different. Did you feel comfortable from the first day? It was a little uncomfortable, and a part of that uncomfortableness for me was I started serving on a court of people who I used to do arguments in front of. It was a hard transition to make, even just calling them by their first name. It was a very difficult transition and they were always the authoritative figure, and now we are colleagues. It was a difficult transition for a while. Were you located in Lakeland at that time? -61 -

13 I was located in Lakeland. I lived in Tampa and had to drive to Lakeland every day and that was about an hour and 15 minute drive one way. But I did have a law clerk who also lived in Tampa. Actually, both of the law clerks that I had lived in Tampa. But one of them, he would drive one week and I would drive one week, and so during the week when he was driving, I could do whatever. I could read if I needed to, and use my time wisely. And then on the other hand during the week when he was driving, we could still discuss cases, because he was my staff attorney. What about the collegiality of the Second DCA when you were on it. What was the atmosphere like, the influence other judges had on each other, the overall relationships between the judges on that court while you were there? I think we had a great relationship. With the two new judgeships that started in '94, there were 14 people on the court. Half of us, however, were in Tampa, and half in Lakeland, and of course being low down on the totem pole, I had to go to Lakeland because the Tampa spots were the judges on the court who lived in either Tampa or Pinellas, and one that could be in the Tampa courthouse because they were obviously closer. So, I had to drive to Lakeland, and I got to know the judges in Lakeland really well. We would go out to lunch together sometimes, but you know, in an appellate court, and I don't know how the trial court settings are, because I have never been a trial court judge, but on

14 an appellate court, we would stay in our offices a lot. You know, if you are not working on an opinion, you were working on summaries, or you are reading other people's opinions, and so there's a lot of -in the office" kind of work that you have to do. And a lot of people stayed in their offices. Even living in Tampa, I usually got to work by 7:30 and I may not emerge from my office until close to lunch time. And I may go ask someone if they were interested in having lunch today, or somebody might come by my office and ask if you are interested in having lunch today. If there's a question that comes up about something, there was always someone you could go to their office and especially those who had been on the court for a while, you might want to go discuss issues with them. There was always someone to talk over things with, and of course, we started 3-judge panels for the most part, and so you would talk with the judges on your panel. We even had motion panels, so you had that kind of contact with the other judges, too. Would you talk with the other judges first and get their opinions, or would you do the research and analysis yourself and then go discuss it? I think it was more the latter. You did the research and analysis yourself, but there were occasion when, you know, the reverse may be true. Look, I'm working on this issue. Have you ever done this? What is the best way to start this? But for the most part you did your research and analysis of the issues first. And how many staff attorneys did you have?

15 I had two. What was your relationship like with them? Well, you know, it really depends on my personality and their personality. When I first started, I had two male staff attorneys. One of them, the one that we drove back and forth together, had a wonderful relationship. The other one was a very quiet, reserved person and beyond the working together, he was a brilliant guy, but beyond working together, we had no other kind of connection. So it just depends on the personality. How much did you use them workwise? How much did you rely on them? To some extent it was difficult to discuss in depth every case that a staff attorney worked on because there were so many cases. So, take for an example, if you had no request cases, you may have all week long, and you know, for 3 days, say 3 days, and you had your six cases and the six cases that were assigned to the other judge, and the other six cases that were assigned to the other judge, and so beyond your cases, it was very, very difficult time wise to have them address some of the issues that you might have about other people's cases. So I had to pretty much rely on myself unless I got bogged down in an issue on other people's cases. But with the cases that were actually assigned to me, there was much more give and take with the staff attorneys. So they had the opportunity to sort of take a firsthand at analyzing things or drafting an opinion for you? -64-

16 Yes, but for the most part with other judges' cases, unless I really needed some quick research done or something like that, they didn't have as much input on other people's cases. How do you approach a case? I would try to at least read through one of the briefs and get some idea of what the issue is about and try to assign the case, even though I'm trying to make sure that everyone has an equal amount of work, but sort of assign the case to somebody who may have had some dealing in that particular area of law, if that was possible. So that's how I started out. Even out the cases and find the best fit for whatever that issue is, and keeping in mind that because we do a lot of death penalty cases, those are pretty much assigned randomly because I don't want anyone to get bogged down in doing more death penalty cases than anyone else. Then you give the case to the staff attorney and they understand what their role is, and they are going to have to read the record. That they are going to have to read and analyze the briefs that the parties have filed and given me, and eventually provide the court with an analysis of the issues that have been raised. Now, when they do their analysis and their summary, I get it before it is distributed, and then we may talk about it. Well, did you think about this particular issue? What about that issue? Maybe we would like to do some more work on this, and you know those kinds of things, and so it takes some time to put it together. When you were getting ready, did you always read the briefs?

17 Yes, and sometimes there are issues and you really only need to read a small portion of the record. So you read what is necessary. In some cases the record is so short that there is no picking anything out, you read the whole thing. So it depends on what issues are raised as to how much of the record that you have to deal with. Ok. Do you have any sort of either most memorable cases while you were at the Second District or more difficult ones? I can't think of any right now. I know of cases I did not like. And we had quite a few of them -- they were termination of parental rights cases. I just saw them as so heartbreaking. I'm not sure I had a favorite kind of case, but that was my least favorite kind of case. And here, of course, the death penalty cases are always time consuming and somewhat emotional, too. You know, I have done death penalty work for a great deal of my career, but it is still difficult. It is still someone's life in the balance. So, of course, here on the Supreme Court, we have had a variety of interesting cases. You know, the 2000 Election, parental consent for abortion. You know, a lot of these citizen initiative cases. And so there is always something it seems of interest here at the Supreme Court. Were you the first woman on the district court? Yes. There were black men on most of the district courts of appeal. Ok, you were the first black woman? What was that like? You know, quite frankly, I never even thought about it until actually

18 someone mentioned it years later. I never thought about being the first black woman on the district courts. I was very proud to have been appointed because the one black man who had been on the Second District Court of Appeal had resigned and he was ill, and so I was really happy that we now had another person of color on the Second District Court of Appeal. But at the time I was appointed, I know that there was... Emerson Thompson was on the Fifth, and Judge Shaw was on this Court, Judge Mickle was on the First. Ah, I'm trying to think if there was, no there wasn't anyone on the Third, and there wasn't anyone on the Fourth at that time. And there had been no females before that? And no females before that. And shortly after I was appointed, they appointed Judge Green, Judge Melvia Green to the Third District Court of Appeal. Did you have any sort of difficulties, or were you treated differently being the first black woman on the court? There were always occasions. You know, what still stands out in my mind is I was at a reception one evening and there were a group of us standing around chatting. And some young man, I don't know if he was young or old now that I think about it, came up to the group and started, you know, chatting with the group and then he turns to me and says, "oh, are you Judge Altenbemd's law clerk?" Here he is, doesn't know me from Adam's housecat, but, you know, that was his first inclination. -67-

19 Always reminds me of the story of you know, you walk in, and they ask, who are you? The court reporter? Those kinds of little things would happen occasionally, but for the most part, I didn't think about it. A lot of people didn't. Now, to a great extent I was probably asked to do more speaking engagements because of that, certainly in the black community, and the legal community as a whole. Yeah, that makes sense. What made you decide to apply for the Supreme Court? Well, you know, I had been on the District Court of Appeal for a while, and I really enjoyed it and then I just go, maybe I could serve on a statewide basis. You know, the Second District was a large court. The covering of a 14-county area and, I actually thought I could do the same kinds of service, but on a statewide basis and impact interpretational law on a state-wide basis. So that's what made me apply for the Supreme Court. And you applied once? No, actually I applied twice. Oh, you applied the second time,... second time... Second time's the charm. Actually, I applied back when Justice Pariente was appointed to the Court. And then I applied the second time, I'm trying to think who had retired. Justice Grimes, Justice Grimes had retired and the person had to come from the Second District. No, it wasn't Grimes, it was Overton. It was Overton, Grimes

20 had already retired, and Overton was retiring, and that meant that... because when Grimes and Overton were here together, when Grimes retired, his was a statewide seat. But now that Overton was the only person who left from the Second DCA area, it was restricted to that area, so yeah, it was when Justice Overton retired. Ok, what did you think, or what do you think if it has changed, of the judicial nominating process? Well, I thought the process was working well as it was. At the point where I went through a judicial nominating process, I believe the Governor had three appointments to the Judicial Nominating Committee, the Florida Bar had three appointments, and then those six people chose three people. I believe that's how the process worked. Now, essentially, I think the Governor makes all of the appointments. I don't know why the process was changed. I thought the process was working well. I think that merit retention versus elections make it a little less political. But politics is not going to be gone totally, but I think the more people who have input into even the Nominating Committee, makes it less political. Right. So going through it, I'm sure it was a stressful process, do you have any sort of memories, good or bad, going through either of those, the second level or other Florida Supreme Court level? Well, the first time around I think it, was the first interview I ever had, of course, was the first time on the Second District. And you really are _C9_

21 uptight. Sometimes, even the questions can kind of throw you for a loop. but especially, more personal questions. Like the question about who is going to take care of your children if you are appointed to the Court, those kinds of things. The second time around I was much more relaxed. I had some inkling, of course, at that point of the kinds of things that they were interested in. So, you go in and you answer the questions, and there's always something about, they will throw in some curves like philosophy of somebody, or what does all of that really mean? I can remember being asked at one of those interviews about who is your favorite Supreme Court Justice and why? And, you know, those kinds of things were, in my estimation, don't really tell you anything. I mean, if I said, Rehnquist, does that mean I believe in Rehnquist's philosophy? If I had said Brennan, does it mean I believe in his? So there was always some of those kinds of questions that are thrown in, I am always going, why?. Right, like what is your greatest weakness? I talk too much! You were sort of an anomaly when you were appointed to the Supreme Court because you were a joint appointment between Governor Chiles and Governor Jeb Bush. What year was that? Let's see, I think that process, actually started on the Court in 1999, January 1999, so I actually interviewed with them and they made a decision in December of

22 Right, Chiles, the verge of his last day and Jeb Bush's first day? Yes, and it was actually 3 days before Governor Chiles died, because it was the 8th of December, and I think he died on the llth of December. Had they announced it before he died? Or was it announced after he died? Yes. yes, the announcement was on the 8th of December, I believe. And did you have to interview with both of them? I did. And it was the same day. I have to tell you this, this was such a funny story. The first time that I had interviewed with Governor Chiles back when I was interviewing for the Second District Court of Appeal, I came up here to Tallahassee and had on my cute little suit and stockings and all that, and had like 3 pair of stockings with me, and I actually changed stockings, I had on the pair I had on that morning, I changed again, and I changed again for my interview, because I kept getting runs in my stockings, and after my interview, I saw a run in my stockings. It wasn't immediately after, I was never sure whether I had run in my stocking during that interview. So when I came up here for the interview with Governor Chiles and Governor Bush, I wore a pantsuit! Very smart. I said I am not going to run the risk of having this run in my stocking making me feel uncomfortable, if I get one, no one will know under this pantsuit. But any way, I ended with Governor Chiles at 11 o'clock in the morning, and I think my interview with Governor Bush was either

23 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, so it made for a pretty long day. Were they really different types of interviews? They were very different kinds of interviews. I had the interview with Governor Chiles, of course, at his office, and I believe, one other person was in the room, but that person didn't ask any questions, didn't make any comments, didn't say anything. I had my interview with Governor Bush at the Governor's Inn in one of those rooms on the first floor, and there were, I believe six other people in addition to the Governor in there. And they were all seated around this table, and they all asked me questions. I think it was his transition team people. So it was like all the way down the line, I had all these people. And the first one might ask me two questions, or three, or whatever, and then the next, and that was a little nerve-racking to have so many people asking questions. At that point you would have been 49? Actually, yes, because I had a big 50th birthday party, wait a minute, when did I have my 50th birthday party? Would have been right around the time you were getting sworn in, probably? No, I started in, I would have started in '98, I would have had a... so it was just, I was 50 at that point, and actually turned 51 when I started. Okay. And you were again, the first black woman to be appointed to the Florida Supreme Court, and the second black person overall, right? Right. -72-

24 Justice Shaw, Third, and Justice Hatchett. Justice Hatchett, right. Third black person overall, and first black woman? What, how does that make you feel? Does it make you feel different? Well it was different because this is the Supreme Court and it was. I can't believe "this happened" kind of thing. I enjoyed it, don't get me wrong. I really enjoyed my time on the Second District Court of Appeal, and I was very, very grateful, and thankful and blessed to have been appointed to that court, but the Florida Supreme Court, I had done so many,... and the Second, too, I had done so many arguments in front of this Court, but again, I found myself in a situation where people are still in the court that I had already done arguments in front of. It is a much more interesting dynamic with seven people versus three people. And it changes how you even discuss the cases, especially for me, because being low man on the totem pole, I got to discuss things last. But when you are on a three-judge panel, it's, if you have a point of view that is different from say, you and I are on the panel and there is a third person, and my point of view is different from yours, it is one dynamic to try to convince one other person, one person of your point of view as opposed to you need at least three more. So it makes for a different lay even discussing the issue. How did your day-to-day go? Did that change at all as far what you -73-

25 came in and did? Because you have fewer cases than you had on the district court of appeal, I really think you have at least more time to actually get into researching things, and if you have even the slightest question about something, you have a little more time to deal with trying to find the answers you were looking in various issues. So, your day changed somewhat because you didn't have as many cases to actually deal with, than you did on the district court of appeal. The district courts really have a lot of cases to deal with. Did you find that because there are 7 judges as opposed to the 3 that it was more contentious during conferences with all the differing opinions and personalities? You know what. The one thing that I thought was so great and still do is that there were differing opinions, no doubt about it, but very rarely was there ever any contentious disagreement. So everyone remains professional. Every now and then the volume of your voice may go up, because you might be so passionate about something, but it was never in a way that was to try to shout someone down or tell someone that their point of view was stupid or any of that kind of thing. Well, you mentioned this before, since you have been on the Court several really exciting historical things have happened, probably the most well known is the 2000 presidential election. Can you talk about -74-

26 what your life was like, what things at the Court was like back then, how that impacted you as a judge, as a person? Well, you know, the day-to-day life was really we were -- I don't want to say held hostage -- but we were pretty much in this building, you know, 14 and 15 hours a day. A part of it had to do with there were always media types outside that once you came into the building, you wouldn't even go out for lunch. I mean, because you didn't want to be accosted by people trying to stick a microphone in your face, and I never went out in front of this building for the 36 days that was going on, I never went out the front of the building. And I can remember, I came in here on Thanksgiving Day or the day after Thanksgiving, and, `cause someone with a camera would get you as you were driving into the garage, and so we had so much, so many s, I actually had to change my address,... From the public? Yes. And so many, so much mail, that we actually had the police to police our neighborhoods, Your home neighborhood? Yes. I imagine there were probably threats to some of you? Yeah. There was. For the most part, the Marshall's office tried to keep that away from us, but you know, you didn't want to be too distracted about the kinds of things, and you know that kind of thing is bound to

27 happen, but the police would come in and check on us in our houses occasionally. We could have had people bringing us to and from work, but to me that is even more conspicuous than just driving yourself and so our lives had changed quite a bit for those 36 days. As I said, we spent a lot of time here. We, everyone on this floor was involved in it. All of our... where you here then? No, it was right after that. A year later. The central staff attorneys were involved, all of our staff, but in that, all the other work of the Court had to continue... if you remember, the first week of November was oral argument week. And so, the election was that Tuesday of that week. We had to continue on with our oral arguments. At some point during that month, two death warrants were signed, so we had all of that to deal with, getting ready for December's oral arguments, so all of the... work of the Court didn't stop just because people wanted to contest the election. So we spent a lot of time on the election cases, but we were also spending a lot of time on the other cases that were before the Court. Normal cases that we would have heard at any other time, and then, of course, as I said, on top of that two death warrants which requires, quite a bit of work, because you've got to become familiar with a case you may not have even been on the Court at the time all the other things were going on, so you've got to come up to speed what went on in the defendant's direct appeal. What went on in the defendant's motion, his habeas petition, his

28 federal habeas petition, his cert petitions to the United States Supreme Court, the Eleventh... so you've got all this information that you have got to get together for the death warrant cases so that you have some idea of how this case even got to this point and the kinds of issues that the Court has had to address along the way. How did the Court as a whole, or the judges in particular, act? I mean, was there a high amount of tension, less collegiality, or did everyone sort of go about doing the things you do? No, I don't think there was less collegiality. I think we probably spent more time just discussing it. If something came up, you needed to really try to pinpoint. Because, we'd hope that whatever came out of the Court would be unanimous. And the first one, in fact, the first opinion, full opinion, was, in fact, a unanimous opinion, but then when we got to the second one, it was not a unanimous opinion, but it still required, in order to write the majority opinion, it required understanding what the dissent was taking issue with and vice versa, so it was just more intense and you knew you had to do it in a short period of time. Did that situation change your view of being a judge or your judicial philosophy? I don't think it did at all. Because I think we handled that case truly in the same manner we would have handle any other case. You know, it really came down to your interpretation of the statutory provisions -77-

29 concerning elections and any constitutional provision concerning elections. I think we handled it the way we would have handled any other kind of case. Just under a lot more of a time crunch? A lot more of a time crunch, and you know, s from people who think they all know best, so I, quite frankly, I just stopped reading them and had them just delete them. You'd get 2,500 in a couple of days. I can't imagine. Who even has time to read them. Right. One other thing before we get to your own personal cases that you can remember as good or bad, or difficult, is I was actually here on September H, 2001, and you know that kind of fear that came around right after that happened, and the courthouse being shut down or locked down, how, what was your day like that day? Well, I was in the courthouse, the day was court conference day. We had court conference and, I believe it was Justice Pariente who was on the computer, you know, taking notes and things, and she was one who told us about it. Justice Anstead had a daughter who lived in New York, and so he left to go see what he could find out about his daughter. And so it was really a somber mood. It seems to me, some...who else, did someone else have a relative or something in New York? Let's see... I know Justice Anstead's daughter lived in New York and so he went to see if he could get any news about her, and I think the problem, not -78-

30 problem, but I think she was not able to get downtown because she was on her way after everything happened. It was so unreal, and even when you think about it now, I mean, I can't even, you know, to fly a plane into a building,... so we took a break for a little bit just so everybody could figure out what was going on and check on any relatives or friends who may have been in that area, but then we finished court conference. Well after that, a lot more security measures were put in place. Did that impact your day-to-day activities? Well, you know, it takes awhile to put new security measures in place, and of course, we always have to go through the legislative process in order to get any additional money, so we've had a few changes here at the court. In my personal life, I don't think I have changed much at all. For a while it seemed that we had more security at various functions that we would go to, and they still do to some extent. It certainly, when we travel, the Marshal's office tries to figure out if there is anything going on in that particular area, any particular threat that they might need to be aware of, but for the most part in my personal life, I don't think I've changed my lifestyle very much because of 9/11. Although, I do remember the first time I had to fly after 9/11. It was like two weeks later. and a good, good friend of mine had retired and she was having a retirement party in Kansas, Kansas City, and I really did not want to go. I don't blame you. 154'

31 But I said, I'm going to have to do this at some point, and so I went. But you know the first time we got on the plane after 9/11, you are looking at everybody... What are you going to do? But other than that, and probably as time goes by, we get less and less aware, you are always aware of your surroundings and you know looking at people, but I think that was about the extent of it. I mean what can you really do? In a situation like this, I mean, just think about it. You can't really stop people who are bound and determined to mischief Of course, and it made it very difficult, even to this day, I don't like to fly any more. I used to love to fly, but if I have to go to Tampa or Orlando, or even to Atlanta, I drive. Well, not even just not liking to fly, but it is impossible to fly from Tallahassee Yeah, and you know, by the time you go through everything you have to go through, you are almost where you need to be. It's just, I guess there is nothing else to be done, but there used to be such freedom and being able to get to the airport, especially Tallahassee airport, 20 minutes before the flight's going to leave, and you are still going to make it. Well, the cases that you handled on the Supreme Court we already sort of said are much different than those in the intermediate courts of Florida in that you have limited jurisdiction and you also have mandatory review of death penalty cases among other cases that are a -80-

32 little bit more rare. I imagine death penalty cases have got to be some of the most difficult cases you deal with, or death warrants. Is there any other kind of case or issue that you have had to deal with that sort of sticks out as a particularly difficult issue? Well, I think any time that you are dealing with the constitutionality of a statute, those are difficult issues to deal with. You've got the Legislature who has passed this statute and who is really charged with setting the policy for the State. But if the proper case is brought before you, you have got to look at that statute, not just as "this is what the Legislature thought was good for the State," but does it comport with constitutional provisions, and so, that's always, you know, a dicey thing. We don't get to see a lot of determination cases, you know, because our district courts of appeal really are designed to be the court's of last resort for most cases. So the ones that always get to here are the death penalty ones and when the statute has been declared unconstitutional. And we have had some interesting ones over the years concerning the constitutionality of the statute. Even recently, a year or so ago, the constitutionality of the statute concerning this new regional counsel office. I mean, that case was brought to us and whether or not this was in essence another public defender's office. The case involving prior to the constitutional amendment, the case involving parental consent for abortion. So those are the kinds of things that really impact on people's lives. So there are just always interesting, and always all 15478,

33 kinds of cases that you think, is really going to make a difference in people's lives. Do you have any sort of favorite kind of issue or some really meaningful case that you dealt with that you recall. Actually, we have one pending right now, so I can't comment on it. Just needless to say, it's a Fourth Amendment case. The Fourth Amendment is always very interesting to deal with. Enough said. Yeah, enough said. Now you became Chief June of,.. this is your second year, July 1st of 2008, so just... One year Of course, the first female, African-American, Chief Justice of the Florida Supreme Court. What changed as you became Chief Justice? Obviously you took on a lot of administrative stuff that you didn't have before? The budget did not accommodate what the court system really wants and needs. So that really has consumed a lot of my time because in my knowledge on the Court, and I have been in the court system for 15 years, I don't recall a time when we actually had extended hiring freezes and travel freezes. And so it is very difficult to tell people no all the time. You can't do this, or the court doesn't have the money for that. Those are the kinds of things that have been going on, and trying to get

34 the Legislature to understand the importance of fully funding the court system, you know, our work doesn't decrease because the economy is down. Our workload actually increases because the economy is bad. Florida is second or third in mortgage foreclosures in this country. We haven't had an increase in the other kinds of economic things. People not paying their credit card bills and those kinds of things, and so the workload of the court increases while we're losing resources, and that leads to less efficiency, it leads to cases taking more time to get through the system, and so you try to explain that to the Legislature that, you know, for want of a better phrase, you are being penny wise and pound foolish. That you need the court system to keep all this going. We had an economic study that really shows how not funding the court system just exacerbates the problem, really. So, it has been a rough year trying to get that kind of information disseminated and understood. And we still have to continue down that path, because the Legislature gave us our trust fund, but they put monies in that trust fund that are the appropriate monies in my estimation. Fines, judges impose fines, we shouldn't be running a court system on monies that the judges have imposed. They put in a lot of the mortgage foreclosure fees. That's finite. It's going to run out. We are not going to have this excessive number of mortgage foreclosures and so what happens when that runs out. That means our money runs out. So there is still a lot of work that needs to be done with the Legislature about the funding of the court

35 system. Is that the most difficult issue as Chief that you have had to deal with so far? Yes. Have there been any other issues that have been taking up a lot of time? I think most of the issues that have taken up a lot of time are simply reflective of the economic issues. Whenever someone wanted to do a travel exception, for example, I'd have to make a decision as to whether or not this is something that really was in the best interest of the branch and that I should give an exception to. A hiring freeze, a hiring exception is something that is in the best interest of the branch and I should do it? So those are not the kinds of decisions normally that a Chief would have to make, the Chief Justice would have to make because it would be made on a local level, but because the money was so tight,... It all came to you. Right. Most of the things are just a reflection of the money situation really. If that situation was not there, a lot of the other things that I had to do over this past year, I would not have to do. I could safely say, look, you're the Chief Judge of that circuit, you make a decision as to whether that circuit can handle that. I think that the last couple of questions are sort of probably ones you have heard before. We've covered your life and your judicial career

36 and everything. What do you think are the qualities of a good judge, lawyer, court administrator? Well, I think there are several things that make a good judge, lawyer, court administrator. One is honesty, integrity, patience, perseverance, preparedness, and just good old fashioned hard work. One thing I didn't ask you is what is your typical day like here? Do you still get here at 7 in the morning? I try to on a lot of days, but I have been kind of tired recently. I still try to get in early because I find that before people start calling you, before you have to start going to meetings, that you can get a lot of work done. I tried to, if I am in town and I like to go to early church on Sundays, 8 o'clock service, and when 8 o'clock service is over, I like to come by the office for a couple of hours. You know, just to get some things done. I normally, assuming that I got to the office at 8 o'clock, I would try to get some files moved, work on possibly draft opinions, a lot of times I'll read a lot of those at home and make my scratches and changes and all that. I may have one or two meetings during the course of the day. I may have to answer some correspondence, or send out some correspondence. But you've always got to work on your cases, too. Typically, by the time the evening comes, there may be even a Bar activity to go to. So a typical day is working on cases, answering and preparing mail, meeting... generally I have a meeting pretty much every day with someone in the system