Actual Innocence Project Season 1 Episode 26 - Maria Shepherd Maria Shepherd: My name is Maria Shepherd, I was wrongly convicted in 1991 of

Transcription

1 Actual Innocence Project Season 1 Episode 26 - Maria Shepherd Maria Shepherd: My name is Maria Shepherd, I was wrongly convicted in 1991 of manslaughter in the death of my daughter and I m an advocate against wrongful convictions. Brooke: Thanks for joining me for episode 26 of Actual Innocence, a podcast to help bring awareness of wrongful convictions and the need for reform in criminal justice. I want to start by supporting everyone who supported my sponsors after the announcement in last week s episode. I know that my listeners want this show to stick around for a long time and you have been a tremendous help! Advocacy sometimes starts with one person, or one podcast, but when so many people band together, based on their shared cause, we, my friends, can move mountains. Once again, I ask, if possible, if you could please support today s sponsor, either by using their product or by sharing my code with someone who is in need of their services. If not, you could just send them a little thank you on social media for supporting the show it would be very helpful and I would be very grateful. Also be sure to listen all the way through to the end to hear more about the upcoming schedule of episodes and the season finale. Today s episode is unique in that it is my first episode in which I interview someone from outside the United States. Unfortunately it s not unique in the fact that it is a woman who was falsely convicted of a crime against her child, that wasn t a crime at all. Maria was a young 21 year old mother who was pregnant with her youngest child when she was wrongfully convicted of manslaughter. An already tragic situation, the death of her step-daughter, was amplified when she became the target of the police and a poorly trained doctor looking for someone to blame. Since her exoneration she has become an advocate and strives to educate people about the issues leading to wrongful conviction. I m Brooke and this is Maria s story. Brooke: You re the third woman that I ve interviewed and in each case it has to do with a crime that wasn t a crime, it was, you know, some kind of medical issue and in every case, the mother was blamed for the medical issue and I m glad that there are people like you who are out there making sure that that doesn t happen to other people. Maria: I think that would be wrong if we didn t, but then again everyone s experience and how they cope is different. My family and I have chosen to continue our journey to champion for the wrongly convicted so that it will never happen, or won t happen again in the future. It s really important that people are educated about it. Brooke: I am going to be light for just a second, so since you are in Canada I am in the U.S. I just wanted to clarify some of the terms, here the prosecution (the person working for the Government) we call them usually The State or The Prosecutor, but it is my impression in Canada that person is called The Crown? Maria: The Crown Attorney. Brooke: The Crown Attorney, okay. Maria: Yes. Brooke: And then I was told that people in Canada rarely use the term attorney, other than to say The Crown Attorney.

2 Maria: We actually, aside from using the word The Crown Attorney it s true, we use the term attorney very minimally because for us what an attorney is, is a lawyer. So it s just the choice of the world really. We actually relate attorney to somebody that is an American lawyer. Brooke: I m just going to start way back in the very beginning. Maria: Well, before October 91 before everything started I was, you know, a Mom, I was at home, I had my little ones at home, I had Jordan my son. I was basically an at home Mom at the time I was 21. Brooke: Were you married? Maria: I was indeed, yes I was married in 1989 to my current husband, still my husband from then. The day really started off uneventful. We were just doing our standard routine we had our breakfast, you know, we spent time in the master bedroom which is generally where the crib was for the baby and just, we were just in the room and then later in the afternoon, Kasandra wasn t feeling very well and she vomited. And it just her... there were so many things that happened that day that just trying to pinpoint every moment of the day is actually quite difficult and painful too, to go through everything again. But, I just remember at one point in that day there was a moment when Kasandra was standing I front of me and her eyes rolled back into her head and I didn t think anything of it, I didn t know to at the time what a seizure was, I was a young Mom, I was 21 and I didn t know that she was actually having a seizure at the time but the balance of the day was fine, we did our normal everyday eat breakfast have lunch together. Kasandra had been going through quite a long period of illnesses and you know, she had just come home not long before that, from the hospital. She had been in hospital for a month, and it was a very difficult time, but we were happy to actually have her home. But that day, it was uneventful for the most part, until I actually went downstairs to get laundry and I had my little one on the bed, and she had fallen off, and then my newborn also started to cry and then Kasandra was close to me at that time, and when she was standing before me her eyes rolled back in her head and then that was it, nothing else happened at that time, so I didn t think anything of it at the moment. And then the rest of the day happened. Brooke: Did she end up at a hospital? Maria: She did. Later that evening after her father got home from work, he had her and then he bathed her and she wasn t feeling very well, but he did the bath and everything and then he brought her downstairs, and then it was when she was downstairs in the living room that she started to squeal and she was clenching her fists and it was very, ah, just bear with me a minute.. It s really hard to talk about, um, I mean she was squealing and we d never, ever seen her do anything like that before, and ah, so we called 911 and we had, my brother had a friend over at the house that was visiting and CPR started and we had emergency people on the phone, and there was so much going on, we didn t know what was happening, it was terrifying, it was nothing we had ever, ever seen before. Brooke: She was three, is that correct? Maria: Three years and three months, around that. Brooke: What do you think made the police suspect that it wasn t an accident or just a tragic health condition? Maria: Well, back in 1990 s/91, which is around the time when my case was happening, Sick Kids Hospital which is a big hospital here in Toronto, they had a unit and they were called the SCAN unit (Suspected Child Abuse Network) and my understanding is that back in 1991 they were using what I think was called, a dirty approach and that, you know, if a child comes in and they re ill and they can t figure out and this is my understanding and they can t figure out what is wrong with her

3 immediately, or they can t get answers why she s feeling, the way that she s feeling or why that child is in the hospital that immediately they re told to think dirty, that something had happened, that a crime had happened or an abuse had happened. I m now learning that I was not the only instance that this happened with, but at the same time, you know, Kasandra was, well she still is, Kasandra is my step-daughter, it was a very, very difficult custody battle prior to that, that was going on and the Mother was not liking me at all, constant phone calls of allegations of me harming her, me doing something to her. So I would think that a combination of that and the dirty approach at the hospital is why they pretty much targeted me. Brooke: What was your interaction with the police like? At what point did they approach you? Maria: I know that shortly after Kasandra s passing, I don t remember the exactly the day, but they asked us to go in and you know, just speak to them, and my husband and I had no problem doing so, so we cooperated with them. And then there was, I don t know off hand exactly how many times we met with them, I know that there was at least three occasions. So there was the initial interview, and then I remember another one where there was obviously, there was a polygraph interview, there was another interview with another officer with just me alone, and this officer was quite clear with what he was expecting from me. Brooke: In the United States polygraphs are not admissible in court, is that the same in Canada? Maria: I am not entirely clear on how the polygraph theory works, but I do know to some extent they allow polygraph evidence. I am not expert in polygraph, but they still do polygraphs and it s still a matter of an argument in court as to whether a polygraph is admissible or inadmissible here. There was one officer that sat in a room alone with me, before the polygraph occurred and he was very clear to me, and he had said to me that, you know, if I don t give them what it is that they need the following morning, the headlines would read Step Mother kills Step Daughter and that my children would be taken away. And then when I went to go in for the polygraph, you know, there s the Good Officer, as they call it, and there s the other officer that s not so compassionate. But, they played their roles very, very well and they kept saying, you know we don t think you re being very truthful with us, and despite everything that I was trying to say to them, I hadn t done anything, there was nothing, I didn t do anything to harm her. It was just consistent oh we have proof, I just couldn t understand sitting there thinking, just what proof are you talking about? Brooke: Do you remember how long that was? Maria: Oh wow, I remember going in there, it was many hours, I know that. Brooke: I ll bet it felt like forever. Maria: It did feel like forever. I was exhausted, exhausted mentally. We had buried Kasandra not long before and I had just been put on medication to deal with the, you know, my nerves and you know everything else, losing Kasey, and um, it was a very difficult time, but we wanted to try and cooperate as much as possible, we didn t have anything to hide. We cooperated with the police at all times, they even came to our home and we opened the door and we welcomed them in and told them, you re welcome to do whatever you need to do here, we wanted to figure out what had happened here. And despite cooperating with them as much as possible, you know, we had never been involved in the law, my husband and I, before, so we didn t realised that perhaps they had this strategy that they were working on and potentially I was their target at the end of it. Brooke: How long would you say, at the initial questioning did they charge you?

4 Maria: I was arrested, I was arrested that night. They had me in a room and an officer started typing out a statement and they told me that my husband was downstairs, in headquarters and next thing you know, my husband was brought in the room and I m basically told to confess to my husband. Brooke: At what point in Canada do you get an attorney? Maria: You re supposed to immediately. The Miranda rights are meant to be read right away, you know, you re supposed to know right away your rights to counsel when an officer is going to arrest you. They also tell you that you have a right to counsel or to consult with counsel prior to doing a polygraph and my husband and I did that, we actually got a referral to somebody and ended up going to see that lawyer and he basically told us that he was not available on the day of the polygraph and that he had a former RCMP officer that would be available to attend with us, for a fee. Brooke: What is a RCMP officer? Maria: Royal Canadian Mounted Police Officer. And we didn t have the money, so we went in on our own. Brooke: I know here, if you can t afford an attorney, one is appointed to you. How does that work in Canada? Maria: In Canada, we have what s called duty counsel and a duty counsel is somebody that is present and available at the court if you need them there for that specific day, but if you cannot afford a lawyer then you can apply for what is called the Legal Aid Ontario Office and they provide funding for those who are unable to fund counsel themselves. Brooke: How was your attorney? Maria: I had two, my first one um, was not good. Brooke: And the second one was? Maria: Pretty much the one that I think saved my life, and my family. Brooke: Can you tell me what court was like? Maria: Oh, which part would you like to know? Brooke: How long was your trial? Maria: I didn t have a trial, I entered into a guilty plea, because at the time Doctor Charles well I don t call him doctor now.. but at the time he was known as Doctor Charles Smith, he was a world respected doctor that seemed unassailable, nobody seemed to want to challenge this gentleman and we couldn t even find experts that were willing to challenge him, when we, when my lawyer went to find other experts, they concurred with what Charles Smith said. Which now we all know, we just don t understand how that was possible. Brooke: And what was it that he said? Maria: He basically said that Kasandra died of a severe blow to the head. Towards the end of the trial proceedings we had already started the trial, and I am not sure how many days in, but we were a couple of days in and I know that there was, I remember that there was discussions from the Crown saying, from the Crown Attorney saying that they were willing to offer a plea to me of two years, less a day, with three years probation and recommendations for a minimum security setting, potential early parole and if I didn t accept that and the proceeded to trial the Crown would seek to put me in a federal penitentiary for five years.

5 Brooke: How long do you think it took you to make your choice? Maria: I think there was a little bit of time, maybe a few weeks, because at the time I was seeing a forensic psychiatrist and she was involved in helping me reach my decision and given the circumstances that I was one in, one of them specifically being that I was also pregnant with my youngest child now, and um, so I was pregnant, no one was willing to challenge the doctor, the best recourse to spare my family and also not lose my family or my children, or potentially have them fostered out would be to take the plea, and I took it. Brooke: Did you get to say goodbye, like, did you get to explain to your children - I know they were very small - that you were going away? Maria: At the time when I entered the guilty plea, I was given I can t remember if it was two or three weeks. I was given some time, and my husband and I were given some time to arrange for living arrangements for the kids. So we had to find an apartment where my husband would live with them. And the kids were way too young, the children were way, way too young to understand at the time what was going on, and my son, I am just trying to think now, he must have been about five years old at the time and so, I mean, trying to explain to a five year old why you re going away, the best way that I could do to explain it to him was the morning when he was leaving for day care and I was turning myself in for my sentence, I told my son that I would be away for about 32 weeks, rather than eight months, so it sounded a bit shorter for him to understand. Brooke: Were they able to visit you, or did you not want them to visit you? Maria: Well I first went to the Metro Toronto West Detention Centre, and in there, you can only see and have visits, there s no touch visits. Um, so it s plexy glass, and I didn t want to see my children there. So I didn t see my kids there, I refused to have them brought into that environment. But ultimately when I was transferred, and classified and brought into Vanier Centre for Women, which was then at the time in Brampton. I was able to have touch visits with them. Brooke: And how would you describe prison in general? What was it like to be there? Maria: It s extremely terrifying. When I first walked in to the Metro Toronto West Detention Centre I was being processed through administration and discharge, ah admission and discharge, and I was told at that time that when I go into the range where I would be placed, that if anyone had asked me why I was there that I had murdered my husband, because if people had known that I was in there for a crime involving a child, especially one of my own that extreme danger. Potentially killed, get attacked, so I was placed in protective custody. Brooke: And you were pregnant at the time, did they look out for your health? Maria: Well, various different settings, so the day that I turned myself in for sentence, and they were bringing me over in the padiwagon over to the Metrowest Detention Centre, I was handcuffed and shackled, and it wasn t until I arrived at the Metrowest Detention Centre and I was about to be offloaded off the truck, that somebody yelled out that I was pregnant and they need to remove the shackles right away. Then I was placed into my range and I guess you d want to call it, admitted into the prison at that time, I would get my medicines once and a while, I know I had to take a tuberculosis shot, there were other things I had to do in order to protect myself and the baby. Brooke: How long had you been in prison when your baby was born? Maria: I was released from prison, just weeks, not long, like literally, when was is, I was released in March, so the same month that I was released, was the same month that I gave birth to my daughter. I must have been out two weeks.

6 Brooke: And how much time did you end up serving? Maria: So, 8 months in custody, um, so that was 8 months in custody, and then I did some time also on day parole, so from March until June of 1993 I was in a halfway house, and then June of 1993 I was paroled into the community again. The Children s Aid Society was very much involved and I was not allowed to be alone, even when my daughter was born, after I gave birth to my daughter, I was not allowed to be alone with her. I only got to see her for short periods and my husband would have to be with her when she was first born. Brooke: You re talking to me now, and you re an advocate for exoneration, so how did that process start? Maria: Uh, I suppose when Charles Smith was caught and I actually got the call I think it was 16 years after I was convicted and charged, and I got a phonecall that he was caught and I never thought that he would get caught. I never thought that anyone would ever believe me, or believe my story, and when I got the news that they finally caught him, and that I was not the only victim that he had done this to, I knew right then and there that there s something that I have to do to make sure that other people don t ever suffer the same way. It was very tragic, not only for myself, but for my children. It is a very grave disappointment that our justice system failed me, never having a criminal record, never being in jail, I had no idea, and it had failed me, it had failed my children, and in some ways it could have taken my life. There were a few times where I thought I m don t know if I m going to make it through this, but through the course of the prison system you realise that you find some kind of inner strength to survive, and if you can do it in there, you can do it in the community and depending on who you are, and how you are coping and your strategies, some people find rehabilitation for their feelings and their emotions have been broken as a system, to work better when you are actually advocating for the cause. Because, had Innocence Canada not come forward and helped me, I don t know where my life would be right now. Brooke: Do you think that your relationship with your children now has been affected by what happened? Maria: There is no question that the wrongful conviction has affected the lives of my children. They re grown adults now, my son is 30, my youngest is 23 and there is still a lot of very deep pain that comes out from time to time, but we are strong as a unit. We are strong as a unit, there is nothing that can break our family, ever. I try and say to my children that, giving up my freedom to not lose my children and for them to not lose a family unit, which we always deserved to be from day one, is something that I would do again, if I had to. Brooke: That s amazing that your family can stay so strong after all of the trauma that it s been through. Maria: Well, my son is also an advocate now too, he gives speaking engagements about what wrongful convictions do to children. You know, when I go out and I do speaking engagements, I start the presentation and then my son comes in to finish it. Brooke: Earlier, when we were sending s before the call, you said that, you know you were trying to get out of the office on time, what kind of work do you do now? Is it related to your advocacy work? Maria: Well, I am very proud to say that I am now a licenced paralegal here with the Law Society of Upper Canada. So I litigate in the lower levels of Courts with the summary convictions, criminal offences, small claims, that kind of thing. Since the time that I was released I worked with criminal lawyers for a while there and my husband went on to become a private investigator, but then he left that field and became a processor. So he serves legal documents in all jurisdictions. And now my son

7 is a licenced paralegal with the Law Society as well. So, trying to get my life together, and I waited six years to get my licence, because I passed my exams in 2010 with the Law Society Paralegal Exam but then we couldn t move forward because of my wrongful conviction. Brooke: In what year what your exoneration finalised? Maria: Well we call it acquittal here in Canada, um and actually it was February 29 th this year, 2016, which happened to fall on a leap day. Brooke: Did you have like a big party? I mean, I am imagining a celebration like no other. Maria: Um, I wouldn t say it was a big party, after we left the Court of Appeal, we went over to the Sheraton Centre, and you know there is a restaurant there and we all gathered there, and it was just my close friends who had been with me through this whole thing, we had been friends for almost 40 years, a number of them were all there, my family members, my legal team, Innocence Canada, Win Wear, I had an amazing support system there, but I haven t had like a full blown huge party, if you want to call it. Brooke: What do you think that people who are not attorney s, like myself, can do to help people who have been wrongly convicted or wrongly accused of a crime? Maria: I think the most important thing that I can say is that, I don t ever want people to think that it can t happen to them and wait until it happens to them to take action or do something to help the cause, because prevention is better than cure. If we do things collectively, together, to show that we are paying attention, that systemic flaws can be reduced, by collective, public outcry for proper justice then I think we are in a step in the right direction. So, donating to a cause is obviously incredible, Innocence Project, Innocence Canada, it s very helpful. I always say to people, it takes about $5 to get one page into a transcript for somebody wrongly convicted, that s two days of coffee, three days of coffee, and collectively if people come together then we can put that transcript together to bring it back before the justice system to have them look at it. Brooke: If you could give advice to someone who finds themselves in a positon of wrongful conviction, what advice would you have for that person? Maria: Never lose hope. As much as hope can seem very dim, hope does come in all different angles, we just need to know where to find it. Also, do not be afraid to look for help, do not be afraid to ask for help, there are all kinds of support systems all over the world and talk to your doctor. Talk to anyone that s willing to listen, let them know your story, and if it means you have to say it a million times, then keep saying it, because you re innocent, you didn t do anything. Somebody is going to listen. Brooke: Is there anything that you think that I should have asked, or anything that you would like to talk about that I didn t ask about? Maria: Oh yeah, definitely, accountability. Accountability is huge. Accountability, see Charles Smith use to be a former doctor at Sick Kids, Sick Kids is supposed to be one of the best hospitals for children. To see and to know that Charles Smith and the two people above him did not have formal training in their field, was a big blow to society. The fact that they were able to walk away with no criminal investigation, they resigned from their positions in exchange for no further investigation, in my view that s wrong. There were many lives affected, a lot of kids, it broke up families. You know, these people went on to rise in their profession over a period of 20 years, whether it be promotions, salary increases, this is all based on their position, which we now know they were never formally trained in. And so, one has to wonder, they just got to walk away? I m not looking for any kind of.. I am not wishing bad on them by any means, that s not the kind of person I am. I have forgiven Charles Smith

8 for what has happened, but I will never forget what he has done to myself, and my children, and my family, but at the same time there has to be more accountability. People need to be brought to justice. When you are called as an expert witness on that stand, and you know fully well you re not formally trained in that field, then who are we kidding? We can t just let it walk away, we can t sweep it under the rug, it has to be addressed, whether it is in this case, or any of the cases around the world. Accountability needs to be addressed. Perhaps the subject of what it s like getting out, and what s life like for a lot of the people afterwards. When you factor in that you walk away with a wrongful conviction, the stains aren t gone, people remember who you are, you re all over the internet and some employers will not even considering bringing you on board, just because of that. Brooke: I was just in Atlanta a couple of weekends ago, and I had a meeting with three men who have been exonerated and are not doing well, and it is so sad to hear their stories because they talk about how it would have been better if they were actually guilty, because there are programs for people who are paroled here, but when you are exonerated, you are just done. Maria: After post acquittal for me, I remember seeing on social media, some people still saying I should have been put in the electric chair, somebody else said that I should have been raped and dumped in a ditch, or something like that. It s just horrible, because it doesn t matter what happens, you ve been walking as a murderer for 25 years and to try and just take that away, it s not a simple task by any means. And the resources available to a wrongly convicted person is minimal, it s really is minimal, there is next to nothing, they just let you out and then you re supposed to find your way. And there are programs that can help, but by no means does it give you a standard of living that you deserve considering you ve spent so many years away in prison for something that you ve never done. To this day, I have no memory, I can t remember going into labour with my daughter. I don t have a picture of it in my head, I can t remember any of it. I think I just, it was just too painful to know, that whilst not actually in a prison setting per say, I was in a halfway house when I went into labour and from there I don t remember, I don t remember being in a hospital room, I don t remember any of that, and it is a terrible feeling to have. And I have been seeing a forensic psychologist for almost, well since 1991 off and on, so for the last 25 years I have been seeing a forensic psychologist off and on. Brooke: My day job, I am actually a therapist for children. I have worked with kids who have had a parent incarcerated and I know the damage that that does. It must be very difficult and I am glad that your son talks about it. To have a parent incarcerated for something that they didn t do, I just think it is very noble that you tell your story and that you are an advocate for people. And that you have found it in your heart to forgive, but definitely not forget, but forgive the person responsible for that, and I think that is just an amazing character trait you have. Maria: It would have killed me, or would kill me, to carry that much burden on my shoulders, that much hatred. I couldn t do it, my mother never raised me that way. She s not here anymore, she died a few months before my acquittal and that s a lingering pain in my heart, you know, that s just another thing that I carry with me, on top of missing Kasandra so much, and then my son deep inside he s broken, but when he gets up there to speak, he s a staunch advocate. You would be so amazed at how this young man talks and he championed beside me all of these years, he never, ever, he never walked away. He always stood by his mother, even as young as 13, We re going to do this Mom. You know, when I got the letter that Smith had been caught, he was the first one that I ran to and we cried in the car. What you re doing Brooke is a great thing, and on behalf of wrongly convicted people I am ever so grateful that you are helping to raise awareness for the cause and for prevention as well.

9 Brooke: There was a story, it was in Michigan, but the lady that I interviewed, her name was Julie Baumer, and she had adopted her nephew, and when he was three weeks old he had a seizure. But the doctor - I have air quotes that you can t see - said that it was shaken baby syndrome and it just kills me that doctors can make statements like that, and not know. Maria: What s really interesting in my case too Brooke, at the time that I was going in to entering the plea, I was told that Charles Smith wanted to add on shaken baby syndrome and ultimately they stepped back from that, so I almost had to answer to that as well. So when I see people like Dr Waney Squier, who is you know, stripped of her licence, or I think she was stripped from her licence, yeah I think she was stripped of her licence cause they just recently reinstated her. Look up Doctor Waney Squier, that s a pretty interesting story because she actually helped convict people before, saying they had killed their children and then she later went on to say that the medical evidence that she had done recently does not match and she recanted, not recanted, but she basically said the new evidence cannot support the convictions that she had been involved in, in the past. Brooke: That s noble too, to go and discredit yourself. Maria: Oh my gosh, what this woman has.. She s been targeted by the police now and you know, it takes a lot for a doctor to come forward and say that. Now Charles Smith and the other two doctors, James Young and Jim Cairns and in my case and Tammy Marquardt s case, any Smith cases, there was a public enquiry on that, and um a provincial enquiry that was held, and went on about a month and you know, they got up on the stand, and Charles Smith said his training was woefully inadequate but that he still stood by some of his findings. I am told he is a very cold, non-compassionate man. I still want to meet him though. Brooke: What would you say to him? Maria: What would I say to Charles Smith? Ah I would like to sit with him in a room, just me and him, and just ask him why? You know, why would you choose me? Why did you do this to me? What have I done? What did I ever do to you to make you think that I would do something like this to my own child? And that I, I am sure knows publically now, that I have said openly that I forgive him, but I will never forget what has been done, and I am still asking for accountability. And that I hope that the children that he has, will never face the days that he s done to mine. And leave it at that. Brooke: I m Brooke, thanks for listening. You can access the schedule of the show for the remainder of the year by going to actualinpod.com and then clicking on Upcoming Events in the About section of our website. Basically the show will be going every other week for the remainder of the calendar year, but the last three episodes which are also the next three episodes are going to be a three part season finale that you will not want to miss! I ll share the stories of the meeting with the Georgia Innocence Project, Stories from Exonerees, and more about Actual Innocence itself. Now here is Stephanie with the credits Stephanie: This episode of Actual Innocence was hosted and produced by Brooke Gittings. The Actual Innocence volunteer team is Stephanie Sottile, Sarah Nelson, Megan Delaney, and Cacey Sanders with production assistance from Matt Ryan. Our executive producer is Dennis Robinson. Visit our website for volunteer opportunities, ways to lend support, and to find out more information about the exonerees. You can find us on twitter at actual in pod or us at actualinnocenpod@gmail.com. We also have a facebook group - just ask to join and someone will let you in.

10 Special thanks to our sponsor framebridge for supporting this show! Until next time listen, learn, and advocate for justice! Thanks for listening.