Oral History Collection

Transcription

1 1 Oral History Collection Transcript: LUKE MOONEY Interview Date: 12/4/2002 Interview Conducted By: GARY MACK with STEPHEN FAGIN The following interview is part of the Oral History Collection of The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza. The Oral History Collection preserves personal recollections regarding the life, times, death, and legacy of President John F. Kennedy. The interviews also provide insight into the cultural history of Dallas and the impact of the assassination. The Oral History Collection includes the memories of eyewitnesses, local law enforcement, local and national members of the media, civic and political leaders, White House officials, Kennedy family acquaintances, Dallas schoolchildren, filmmakers and researchers, Parkland Hospital personnel, and others related to the events of November 22, These candid and informal interviews provide future generations with a tangible link to the past. All oral history videos and audio recordings are available for research and may be viewed by appointment in the Museum s Research Center. Transcripts of select oral histories are available upon request for research. As an ongoing program, the Museum continues to actively record and transcribe oral history interviews year round. For more information, to schedule a research appointment, to request a research transcript, or to volunteer for an interview, please contact Stephen Fagin, Oral Historian, at OralHistory@jfk.org or call , ext This transcript is unrevised and may contain typographical errors. This transcript is intended for personal research and reference only. Any further reproduction or distribution of any portion of this transcript must be specifically authorized in writing by The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza. To request citation information, contact OralHistory@jfk.org. Please include contact information, project title, reason for citation, and approximate number of lines to be cited.

2 2 (0:00:00) 3 rd or 4 th? 4. Stephen: 4 th. Luke Mooney December 4, 2002 By Gary Mack with Stephen Fagin Oral History Interview This is December 4, My name is Gary Mack, the curator at The Sixth Floor Museum, and Stephen Fagin is our Oral History Coordinator and he s here. And we re talking today with retired Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney. Thanks for coming in, appreciate it. I think what we ll try and do is just just take you from when you were born and how you wound up me. All right. working for the sheriff s department and start in. Just look at Yeah, I was going to point out. All my statements are laying over there, but go ahead and I ll tell you to the best of my knowledge. Well, we ve got your Warren Commission testimony, and there s a lot of good information in there, but Yeah, I ve got all that with me. let s go back to when you were born and where and a little bit about your early background and what led you to the sheriff s department. I was born April the 4 th, 1923, in Hopkins County, Texas, five miles south of Brashear, which is a farming community, and graduated from Miller Grove High School, And entered A&M college at College Station for a short

3 3 period of time during the beginning of the war right after it started and later went back home to take care of my father. And he passed away, and I went into the army and never did return to A&M. I, however, am a very big supporter of A&M and do a lot of volunteer work. My wife s on the board of regents at Galveston, and I do a lot of volunteer work with A&M, support it, and have a foundation set up with A&M. That s about it besides being in business after I retired. What all did you do in the war? In the war, I was a T/4, Technician Fourth Grade, and I was an instructor with a support battalion, 764 th Amphibian Tank/Tractor Battalion. We was to light tanks the first half of World War II, and when the European theatre was over with, well, we changed over to amphibian tractors but turned their tanks all in at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and went to California and formed the amphibious unit, which I d call halfsailor and half-solider. That the marines first started using the amphibious tractors. Uh-huh. And we came on behind them and stayed out there and was ready to go overseas. And we trained a lot of troops and overseas replacements Uh-huh. When the atomic bomb was dropped, well, we all had so many points had been in three years there about, and so they changed our orders and we stayed around another and trained overseas replacements and was discharged in 1946, I believe it was. 46? Came back to Dallas or? Came back to Dallas. Uh-huh. Went to business college and went to work in the automobile business and was there a number of years, assistant foreman for Johnson Chevrolet, dispatcher, and was in the automobile business for quite a while with Associates Investments and which is similar to a banking institution, financing dealers and individuals. And I was handling all the legal work for the attorneys in-and-out of the sheriff s office and the clerk s office, so one evening out of the blue, they was wanting to transfer to Tulsa, Oklahoma, to a new office open up a new office as an office manager. And I didn t much want to do that, and so out of the blue, why I don t know, Sheriff Decker, one of his chief deputies in the civil division, called me up and said, Decker wants to see you. It was after five o clock, and I said, All right. So, I came on down here and went in and talked to Mr. Decker, and he talked to me a little bit, and he said, I ve been watching you around here for years. He says, Give em two weeks

4 4 and come on down here and go to work (laughing). So, that was my beginning. So, February the 1 st I went to work. enforcement? So, you had no thoughts prior to then to a career in law Well, not not exactly. I had been around the officers a lot, but at that time, I didn t. So, they tell me that I was the only officer Decker ever hired off the street that didn t have a uniform. Everybody went in patrol to the jail, detention officer. I came right on in and went to work in the in the civil division and execution writ division. So, what do you think Decker saw in you that made him? I have no idea (chuckling). Did you ever ask him? (chuckling) No. And if he wanted something my desk sat right outside his office over here in the old Record building, and where the sheriff s office was anything he wanted something, he d look out there and if I was sitting there, he said, Come here, boy! And don t walk in there unless you had a scratchpad in your hand or something to write on because he didn t repeat it twice. You had to be take it down and go (laughing). Career changes can be most interesting things. And you always wore a hat. You didn t go you never come in without a hat on anywhere. Really? (0:05:35) Dress hat. You could wear a western hat like I come in on, and I wear that now because it shades my head better (Gary chuckles in background), and to But all you guys who worked for Decker had to wear your had Had to wear a hat, that s correct. The detention officers in the jail didn t wear one, but they wore a cap and patrolmen wore a cap. But all his outside officers or inside the offices wore a hat all the time, day and hat. You never pulled that hat off. So, if we look at the pictures that were taken after the assassination, everybody running around out here in the Plaza if it s a guy with a coat and tie and a hat, he s probably a sheriff s deputy or sheriff?

5 5 (nodding) Yeah, that s correct. I had my hat on. Everybody did that worked over there. We didn t we didn t have any assignments because it was the city of Dallas Police Department and Secret Service and FBI and whatever had all the assignments. I think Captain Buckalew was out at the Trade Apparel Mart where the meeting was going to be working traffic or out there, about all he was doing. Would it have been normal for the sheriff s department to have assisted with a parade? Well, if we was asked to we would have. I m sure he would have, but we didn t I don t suppose we was asked. If he did, I don t know about it. Basically, the motorcade is more of a traffic problem than anything else, and that would be Dallas Police, I would think. February 1 st of 58. Yeah, that s correct. Yeah, they were escorts. Well, But before the assassination, let s see, you started in (nodding) Yes. What do you remember some of the more interesting cases or events that you were involved with prior to the assassination? routine work. (smiling) Well, not particularly. Just routine (chuckling) just And of course, we had all type of cases back in those days, but most of it was just routine work. I don t recall any assassinations (smiling). As far as I know, this is the only one we ve had in the city of Dallas.

6 6 Hold on a second. <break in tape> (there is approximately one second of static interference) Technical problems. Hopefully, they ve been solved (chuckling and Luke chuckles in background). You d been with the sheriff s department since 58, so five years or so after that, at one point at some point, you guys must have heard that Kennedy was going to come to town. What was Dallas like in those days, and what were some of thoughts that you had and some of your some of your partners? Well, best I remember, of course, everybody knew he was coming to town, and everybody wanted to see the president. And it was a normal city, just like, well, maybe not quite as crowded as it is now but it was a growing city. And so, that was about the extent of it because when they knew he was coming in, well, the dates and so forth, well, people began to gather and the streets were lined, just like us. We were standing out there because we didn t have any assignment. We were standing out there as spectators just like everybody else on in front of the Record building and sheriff s office. We talked a little bit before we started about this, and I I mentioned that I was under the impression that things like a motorcade, which was just pretty much a traffic situation, would normally have been handled by the police department. Would the sheriff s department have been involved in anything like this on other occasions? Not normally, no. It s city city traffic. The sheriff doesn t handle the city traffic. But you guys would have been And of course, he has jurisdiction over the entire city and county as far as law enforcement is concerned. He s the chief law enforcement officer, the Dallas County sheriff is, regardless of who he is. And but as far as working traffic, he doesn t take up those duties unless he s asked to. participate? And as far as you know, Sheriff Decker was not asked to As far as I know he wasn t. You know, years later, (chuckling) when people are trying to find, you know, a scapegoat or an explanation for all of this somewhere

7 7 they wonder about the sheriff s department and why you guys weren t involved and Well, we just it was the city of Dallas, and they chose to handle it and work it, the Secret Service. And so, that s the way it was set up. And of course, Decker rode in the car. Chief Curry and and the whole bit, and of course, I don t know whether you all know the nickname of Chief Curry. No, I don t. Bubba (laughing). Bubba. He s deceased (laughing). What a shocker (chuckling). So, OK so, except for Decker who rode with Curry in the front of the motorcade, none of the sheriff s department were involved in the motorcade or any part of it, so you guys a lot of you guys were just in the office? (0:10:40) We were just around the office there to see the president. I could have shook hands with him before he went turned that little short turn there on Houston Street. You were I was that close to him because he was sitting on this side, you see, on the right-hand side, and I could have shook hands with him. All I was standing on was that high curb there. I was going to say, you were on the curb? Yeah, right there in front where the steps come down. When you talked to the Warren Commission, they asked you who you were with and you named three or four guys, and I don t recall who they were but do you remember some of the guys that you were with?

8 8 Yeah, Ralph Walters was standing there and Sam Webster, and I forget who else. I don t recall, but both those officers are dead. Roger Craig, was he there? I didn t see Roger Craig? Harry Weatherford? I didn t see Harry. He he was living at that time. He s deceased, too. Roger Craig is also. But I didn t see them because we was facing the street, and I didn t look around to see who all was around. Of course, I know us three officers went down across the Knoll when we heard the shots. Well, if you would, describe what you what you saw and heard as the Kennedy motorcade approached. Well, as the motorcade approached us, we waved just like everybody else did. He waved and the president waved and Connally and of course, Jacqueline was sitting there with them, and so, they made the right turn onto Houston. Well, we just missed as far as the motorcade was concerned of course, there was a trail of cars behind it. We just kept standing there, and then that s when we heard the first shot ring out. And I said, That was a weapon somewhere. You recognized it as a shot right away? Oh sure, yeah. And just a split second, the second one, and then a slight hesitation before the third. And we definitely knew it was a weapon of some kind, but as far as that s when people just thought they heard the shots come from the Triple Underpass, which was incorrect. With the wind, you wasn t exactly sure, but it didn t sound like it was coming from the Triple Underpass to me. So, we down across the the Grassy Knoll there Uh-huh. and come up to the across the street and went up over that wall there. There was no gates in there at that time, and that railroad yard s all back there. And and so, we jumped over that wall and looked around a little bit, and time went by pretty fast. We didn t see anything going on because everything had done dispersed and people was gone. Were you were you among the first people up there? No, no. Lord no. I don t know how many people was up there before me, no telling.

9 9 So, you But anyway, when I looked around and checked the area and I didn t see anybody out there that was suspicious, and so I said, This We started over to the entrance to where the freight docks were, and there was two big ole wire gates there made out of cyclone fencing, high, and they were open. And I happened to know a man standing there, and I told him, I said, Bill, he s a civilian. And I says, I m shutting these gates. Don t let nobody in or out. And so, the other two officers went took the stairs or went in, and I started up. And I seen that old elevator and two employees that were women, we jumped on that ole freight elevator and we went up one floor and they cut the best I remember, one floor they cut the power off. Thank goodness, it was where we could get off. I m sorry. They cut the power on or off? They cut the power off in the building. Really? Right. No no electricity at all? No, no power. Who did that? I don t know (smiling). Management, I guess, or the maintenance, the engineers, or somebody. Anyway, they cut the power off to the building. We didn t have no power, no lights, no nothing. How soon after the assassination did that happen? Man Like five minutes or? (0:15:00) It wasn t much over five or ten minutes. I time goes fast because we was young folk young people then (chuckling), we s traveling pretty fast when we crossed that street down there. I remember ole Ralph s glasses he had on shades (laughing). He always wore shades, and his glasses flew off. He reached down and scooped them up and never did quit running. I ll never I remember that. Jeez. And

10 10 We ll come back to the to what happened inside the building. Let s see if I can jog your memory on some things. You and your partner who was the partner you were with? We neither one of them was my partners. They just worked there. They were just there? You guys so, you guys ran across the grass and across the street and then up the Grassy Knoll to the fence? (nodding) But there were people who already ahead of you who had already gotten up there? higher. Oh, Lord yeah, I know there was because they had already gone up See? Up the other floors. So They they was all in a big hurry, I suppose, just like everybody else, and so when they had done gone up and been there d been people all over that building, officers, and so I got off this elevator and the two women that was employees here and I don t remember their names. I didn t ask them. And so, I went on up the stairway then, and how come me on the sixth floor? Don t ask me. I didn t know where I was at either (smiling) because I had never been over in this old building. That s that s what you told the Warren Commission, too. Yeah, so I got off on the sixth floor by accident, I guess, and Were you by yourself at that point or? looked around and yeah, I was by myself.

11 11 And and so, looked around a while and didn t see anything, and I says this area over here on the south (pointing to his right) on this corner. This would be the It d be southwest. southwest corner, yeah. There wasn t any books over there. There was a vacant area there. Uh-huh. There had been somebody up there doing some carpentry work. There was lumber, fresh lumber, laying around there. Uh-huh. But all the books, stacked on pallets, were over here (indicating off to the side, away from vacant area) and back this a-way couldn t get through. of the building. and sealed off on this side maybe ten or fifteen feet where you So, you were you were describing the area on the southeast side Yeah, the southeast was all walled off with pallets Uh-huh. up high as waist-high about like this (holding hand up to forehead level while seated). They wasn t head-high. You could of see over them, the tops of them, but they wasn t they wasn t I think, they were either two two pallets high or one. I think they was one pallet high, most of them, and so I I said, Well, I ll go over on the northeast corner. So, I just started winding around through some channels little ole aisles, wasn t no aisles really. They just wasn t close together, and I walked around

12 12 all through over here and squeezed through and went way around over here (mapping out his route with his finger on the tabletop) and I found me an aisle a trail, and I come back around this a-way and turned this corner here. And that s when I saw the area. So Saw the window So, you partially open. You re describing going to the northeast corner of the building Northeast corner and then south and coming all the way around. that brought down to the southeast corner? Bout bout to the south Well, it would ve been the southeast corner. Southeast corner. Right there where the window is. OK, So, what did you find over there? That s when I found the the books had been stacked and a crease in em where the rifle laid appeared to be. Of course, the rifle wasn t there, but you could see the crease in it and a little sack of lunch there of some kind. I didn t open the sack. They later said it was chicken bones in it. And down here, besides where the rifle was when he ejected the shells, there were three spent shells. (indicating with finger on tabletop their position off camera) One like about like there and one here and one over here. They might have been a foot apart because I didn t have no camera to take pictures of them, but I m sure they did because I had to identify them all in Washington, D.C. And all either good pictures or fake pictures (smiling), they had all kinds, and if you didn t know what you saw, you better not talk (chuckling and Gary briefly chuckles in background) because they had the answer. So, anyway and so, when I saw that, well, saw the window open and I put my elbows on the windowsill, it appears it might

13 13 be a little higher than what it is now, but anyway, it wasn t all the way open. And I looked down so I could where I could see somebody to call them if I knew somebody. So, I looked down, and when I looked down, I saw Will Fritz and Decker standing down there on the corner. So, I hollered, Mr. Decker, I says, Tell Mr. Fritz, I always called him Mr. Fritz, I says, Tell him to send his crime lab up here. I ve got something. And that s all I told him. Fritz was there? You saw Fritz down there? (0:19:58) (nodding) Yeah, Will Fritz was there. So, here they came with all that bunch of men behind him (chuckling) that worked for him in vice and there was four or five of them. And so, here they come, and he was the first man I told him how to come in. I was standing over there and sealed it off to let nobody in there, and he came on over there. And he was the first man who reached down and picked up one of the spent shells to see what caliber it was and then laid it back down in the exact spot, and so, I left him then and Gene Boone we had sent for some searchlights because we didn t have no lights. It wasn t real dark up there because of the window light daylight, but anyway, we needed some searchlights to shine between them pallets. So, when we got the searchlights, them little ole hand lights they sent them across the street from the sheriff s office we was standing there, and Boone had the light in his hand. And he shined it up in there, and so, that s when we seen the butt of the rifle. So, one of Will Fritz s men was the one that pulled the gun out. Hmmm. Of course, I never have had my hand on it and hadn t seen it until I went to Washington, D.C., and I saw it then. And I haven t seen it since (chuckling). When you were searching around on the sixth floor, did you or anyone have any idea that the shots came from the building? No, I didn t know where it came from. They sounded like they come from the building, but till we found the evidence, we didn t have that knowledge or I didn t. Well I don t know whether anybody else did or not. Undoubtedly, they kept thinking it probably was higher, so they all left and went on up top to see in trying to find on the seventh floor. How many floors this building got, seven or eight? Seven, seven. Seven, They was up on seven. Uh-huh.

14 14 And Well, but what made you guys search the building to begin with? Well, I just had a premonition it was over here, somewhere around that by where the actual assassination, where the car was and everything, it had to come from some of these buildings, either here or across the street at that other one. We knew it didn t come out of the ole jailhouse over there (laughing) where the prisoners was (Gary chuckles in background). At least, we didn t think so, and so that s just what, you know, you just take an assumption that it was around here close, so you go to looking. And so that s the reason that, after it boiled down to it, that s where the echo came from was right up there at the corner. the street? When you leaned out the window, you saw Decker down there on Yeah, him and And and he was with Fritz? He was standing there with next close to Fritz. They was talking, I guess. I don t know. Did you know Day? Huh. But they s down there. Did you know Fritz? Lord yeah, I knew him! He was chief of vice. Fritz came up, and eventually the crime lab guys came up. I d know him when I saw him. I didn t know I didn t know with me, I knew their faces with a lot of them. I didn t know their names because I didn t work close with em. And you mentioned that Fritz had picked up one of the shells to see what kind of caliber it was? (nodding) Right. And then he put it back down?

15 15 Do you remember I looked through your testimony, and at one point, you mentioned that you had seen a news photographer in the building with you guys. Do you remember anything about him? I don t remember him. No? I don t even remember seeing a news (smiling). I m sure there were some around later, but I don t know who they were and what newspaper they was with. There was Anybody There was one photographer from Channel 8 who got in, and anytime you see the pictures inside the Museum of you guys searching around and stuff that Tom Alyea shot. That was his name. Tom what? Alyea. All day? Alyea. Alyea, A-l-y-e-a. Yeah, I didn t know him. Tom has been telling a story for some years that he filmed Fritz actually picking up the shells, and he held them out so he could photograph them. Well, Fritz might of went over there and reenacted it, but there wasn t no photographer there at that time the best I remember when Fritz because me and Fritz was the only two men standing there in the around this area because you had

16 16 to wind around to get over in that area. And so, we was the only two men standing there at the time he reached over there and picked it up and laid it back down. arrived, so Uh-huh. And I left him. And it was some it was a few minutes later when the crime lab Yeah, well, they was coming right around behind him. Does that sound like something Fritz would have done, picked up the shells and held it out for the guy to photograph and then threw them back down? (laughing). (smiling) I don t know whether it would or not. I I didn t see it All right. But he was a pretty shrewd old man. I said old man (chuckling). He was about Decker s age, I guess. No, he was a little younger, I suppose. Let s see. Let s talk about the discovery of the rifle, and I m sure you know about the the controversy that s been going around over the years about what kind of rifle it was. So, what what was what were the discussions that you and the other people had once you saw the (0:25:07) All I know is what the the people there that pulled the gun out and described it as an Italian weapon similar to our M1.30 caliber carbine that we carried in World War II in later years. Did they did they say it was Italian? (nodding) They did say it was an Italian gun. Up there on the floor? When they when they first pulled it out?

17 17 didn t touch it. Far as I know they did because I didn t know what kind it was. I I didn t have my hands on it, and they s and when Boone and I shined the light in there and saw the butt of it, one of Fritz s detectives is the one that pulled it out. And I don t know which one now. I think it tells maybe in one of these articles (pointing to materials off camera) the one that reached in there and pulled the weapon out. Day. Well, unless it s a reenactment, the person who pulled it out was (nodding) Yeah, The crime lab guy and but he according to what he told the Warren Commission, he examined the rifle while it was still on the floor Yeah, he should have known what it was by looking at it. Well, he did and he didn t. What s puzzling is that It s bound to have excuse me. Well, it said Made in Italy on it but the first news reports referred to it as a Mauser. And no one seems to know how that where that where that name came from. thirty people (smiling) So I don t Did you hear anyone up there at the time describe it as a Mauser? No, I didn t. No? How many people were there? Oh Lord, I didn t count em. There must have been twenty-five or

18 18 Wow. there when we pulled the gun out or when the weapon was pulled out, and there might have been few less or more, I don t remember. I didn t count em, but I know we was all standing there. And somebody brought the news up there we was all still standing there that the president was dead, deceased, D.O.A., D.O.I., dead on arrival. And so, when they mentioned it, you could have heard a pin drop because I mean, it was quiet. And there was all kinds of noise before then. And looking there, and I was standing beside somebody I don t know who it was and I pointed over there, and there was a book carton of books torn open and on the book laying there, on the face of it it had a paperback on it it had a picture of Jesus, and it said, Christ leads the way. And I pointed to it. I said, See that? Now, that s something; a miracle. Nobody will ever believe it, but it was there. And what book it was other than a religious book for the schoolchildren I don t know. But it the carton was busted open. After Fritz and Day and maybe others examined the rifle there, what did you do next? I left. Where d you go? I went back to the office over there (chuckling) and hadn t been up there since till about five or six years ago. Really? (smiling) Never did go back. And I went over there to the office, and and I guess it was I stood guard out there around the entrance to the jail where they unload prisoners for a while, just as security because they had so many people and we just took up posts here and there, you know. And then, the next morning, I guess it was, when we wrote up the statement was typed out with the secretary of the sheriff, which is I ve got a copy of it there (indicating materials off camera). You ve probably seen that statement, haven t you? I have. Supplement statement? What else did you do that day?

19 19 (chuckling) Well, that s about it. I don t think I done much more work other than just routine. investigation? reports on. afternoon? The sheriff s department wasn t really involved in the No. Well, I guess Other than what we each one had done that s what we give our Right. And I guess some witness statements that were taken that (nodding) That s right. Witness statements and all that. What time did you finally get home that night? Oh, I don t recall now. In the night. We worked into the night everyday, but we don t you didn t work with a clock. Oh, really? Not with Decker. You worked around the clock all the time (Gary chuckles in background). You didn t work by the clock. It was always dark when you thought you could go home. I ve been laid down, get home at ten o clock at night, and and I kept a squad car at home with me at all time. And do, we d be there and something would come up, and his two deputies that stayed down there in the office with him all the time, criminal investigators, ole Luke Bucknell (?) and A.D. McCurley and both of those are deceased. And they d say the phone rang, and I d answer it. And it d be either A.D. or Luke one. His name was Luke, and they called me Little Luke and him Big Luke (laughing) because he was heavier than I was. But anyway, he said, Decker needs you. I didn t ask him, What for? I d say, Well, as soon as I get my clothes on, I ll be on. And here we go again. Might get back home at two o clock in the morning or whenever, so whatever it was, you d take off and go. And it d be something to do with, maybe, somebody stole an airplane or something else, and he d know how I knew the ropes out there at Love Field. Had to go out there and seize the plane and capture whoever (chuckling) or whatever, you know. Pick up somebody to go with you (laughing), and you just had a lot of activity like that. Did you have any other involvement with the assassination? No.

20 20 that weekend or? I was at church when Oswald was killed, shot, died, of course. I was coming out of church out there at the Lakeside Baptist Church when we heard that on the news. from Normally, the sheriff s department would do the prisoner transfer Normally you would. And I bet my money and I don t have no say-so that Decker wouldn t have moved him like that. The story is I think it s in some of the testimony that Decker didn t want any part of it based on let me think here. There were some who thought that it would be good to let the media get some pictures of Oswald because there were rumors that the police were beating him, and of course, that wasn t true. No. And how how do you prove that? And Decker was asked (lights in room go out) Whoops! Hold on here. (lights come back on) Lights go off if we don t move around. Decker was asked to handle that and because of the restrictions and transferring Oswald in the open like that, he just didn t want any part of it. So, the police did it. Have you heard anything different than that? (leaning in) How s that? Have you heard anything? Any explanation different than that? No, I never heard no explanation other than we didn t have nothing to do with it or Decker didn t. If I d of been going to do it myself, and of course, I didn t have all that authority either because I was just a regular plainclothes officer. And he should have been moved at midnight with no publicity. Jack Ruby. Did you know Ruby? (shaking head) No, didn t know him. No? Did you know anything about him?

21 21 Well, all after I later years, I mean, after the he shot Oswald and then determined that he did have this little ole club up the street there on Commerce, I believe, which I never was in. I never went in those clubs or places unless I had business, and that s one place I never did have no business. So, I never was in it and didn t know him. to you? How did you first hear that the Warren Commission wanted to talk Well, I really I suppose they notified the sheriff s office, and then they contacted me. And that s the only reason I that s the only way I believe that they contacted me because they didn t contact me direct. And they contacted the authorities in the sheriff s office Decker, I suppose, and that s when they arranged all the flights. And all of us went up there the same time. McDonald that captured helped capture Oswald and Boone and myself and I don t know Mr. Truly, I believe, wasn t his name Truly? Yep. Roy Truly, the manager of the book department. Manager here, and I don t know who else was from this office, business, Book Depository all went up there on the same plane, and we were escorted off by the Secret Service and to our hotels. And they stayed with us or whatever till they dismissed us. So, what was it like walking into the room and talking to the Warren Commission members? country boy. (smiling) It was pretty pretty nerve-racking (laughing) for a How many of them were there and? I I don t recall how many. I should have counted them. Well, I probably did at the time, but I don t remember. But there was a huge conference table like this with all those lawyers on all sides, and you was at the head table at the head of the table, the conference table, and I do remember Senator Ford, which is I President Ford now or former president, was sitting about two or three down from me. I remember that. And Senator Cooper, I remember his name, he done a lot of the questions, as best I remember, and another congressman or senator rather. I don t recall. And it s probably there in that statement (indicating materials off camera). I can t remember all that. It s eighteen pages of it, as you probably know.

22 22 about? Uh-huh. Yep. Did they seem to know what they were talking (0:35:42) I believe they did because they began to show all these exhibits, and you had to initial them whether they were right or wrong. They d have three different exhibits, and if you didn t know what you saw, don t they knew which was the right picture, and you had to to initial an exhibit. And that s the way the questions went on. I see. Of course, you told them everything and then and identified these exhibits up here in the corner. You ve looked over your testimony, I guess, from time-to-time. Did you make any mistakes or is there anything that you wanted to? I don t I haven t read it since (laughing) all of it since that date. How long s that been, thirty-nine years? Thirty thirty-nine. I don t recall. I just told them what I knew and that was it, to the best of my knowledge. Let s see when you came back to after you came back to Dallas, some months later, the Warren Report came out and they decided that Oswald did it all by himself. Did that make sense to you and people that you know and talk with? Well, it made sense to me because it hadn t been proven otherwise. And has that changed in your opinion since then? And it hadn t ever changed in my mind. People ask me that all the time that knows I had anything to do with it (smiling). And I says, As far as I m concerned, until I say prove it, well, it still stands as Oswald was the lone gunman, because I found the three spent shells and all the evidence and where they came from. And then, Oswald killed Tippit. Why would he kill Tippit if he hadn t been guilty of something else. He was trying to cover up all his evidence, and and? Is that pretty much the way things go with with criminals

23 23 Yeah, it s pretty much the same. They try to cover up, you see, and because that s I ve been in given several interviews and commentaries and as you as (indicating Stephen) Stephen. Mr. Fagin looked there on that old Times Herald report, that news company that came over here from London, England, made that film, and they were over here with all the of course, they rented all that equipment, and it looked like Hollywood was out because when I retired from the sheriff s office, I was a secretary of a corporation. And my wife s in business, and so I was a secretary and then become vice president when I retired from the sheriff s office. I was a silent partner in a in a cosmetics manufacturing business. And so, they set up out there in our project room in the plant, which we own, and made this commentary interview. And they later years, well, after they got it all completed, which was a year or right at it, I guess, and they called I got a phone call one morning at the breakfast table. And it was from London, England. I thought it was somebody pulling a prank on me, and the lady said, No, says told me all about who they were and so forth. And they wanted me to come over there for the premiere of the picture, and I wouldn t go. Some of em went, but I didn t go. I said, No, too far. Kennedy? Oswald? step-by-step Which program was that? Was that The Men Who Killed Huh? I don t remember what the title of that movie film was. Or was is that is that or was it The Trial of Lee Harvey No, I don t think so. It was just more or less the assassination, where they interviewed people that was involved in it. Do you remember do you remember her name? No, I don t remember her name. Was it Sue Winter?

24 24 soul. years, and to you It could have been (smiling). I couldn t tell you now to save my Well, you ve heard the theories on-and-off over the (leaning in) Do how? You ve heard the theories about the assassination over these years, and you ve talked with your friends and that. And you ve done some interviews over the years, and it still looks like Oswald to you? you are. It still looks like that to me. Till it s proven otherwise, well, there If it if there was more to it than just Oswald, where do you think others might have come in or what else might there have been? I m just asking you to speculate. (0:40:19) I have no idea. Are there any areas There s been comments that Cuba was involved in it, but that s just comments. I don t know. I don t have no proof of it. Are there any area that you think could have been investigated better or more thoroughly? Well, it looked to me like it was pretty thorough because what I was involved in, it was pretty thorough. When you were searching around in the building, did you talk with any of the employees? (shaking head) Nobody. Other other than those two women that you? I didn t even talk to them. They just wanted to get back to their office. I told them to get on the elevator. That was the only words I had conversation I had with them. The power was off when you went into the building?

25 25 They turned it off while we was on that elevator. While you were on We went up one floor. While you were on the elevator, they turned the power off. (nodding) That s right. It was lucky we got off was able to get off of it (smiling). We could have been caught between the floors. long it was. on, I don t know. How long was the power off, do you know? I have no idea. I mean, was it just It was off until I left the building, I know that. I don t know how It was off until you left? It was off when I left the building. Now, when they turned it back How interesting. I I ve heard this from somewhere, and I don t know whether it from you or someone else, but I never knew anything about it. So, when you went into the building and got onto the elevator, you got you re going up the elevator and suddenly it stops and the lights go out. That s right. Who was on the elevator with you? These two women. Just them? The employees. That s all (smiling) because I had ole Bill Cox to shut the back gates and not let anybody in or out from that entrance. Of course, they was coming in the front entrance, I m sure, people were. And of course, everybody had done left that sixth floor but except me and then cut off those lights. And that s when Boone come back in with the lights, and I d already found the other stuff, you see. And with the ole hand light those ole nine, I guess, nine volt batteries. Nine volt, yeah.

26 26 it up? Yeah, those ole hand searchlights. Uh-huh. And shined it in there and saw the butt of the gun, the weapon. How long was the rifle left there on the floor before anyone picked I don t think it was left there very long before Fritz s people came over there and pulled it out between the book the carton of books, in between em. They just slid it up there between em. And it wasn t very long after I d found that other. It couldn t have been over five minutes. Not long. Maybe longer than that, I don t think it was, though. Didn t seem like very long. Do you remember anything about the rifle that stands out? (shaking head) Not a thing in the world other than just an old Italian-looking rifle. It looked like Italian to me. Of course, I had seen some of em before, but I couldn t tell you now it was what caliber the thing was. A.381 or something, I don t remember. Let s see oh, I had a question about where you found the shells. You mentioned that you found the lunch and a pop bottle nearby. Anything else? Did you find That s all I saw. Did you see any paper? I didn t see any paper. A paper bag? I seen a little ole paper bag. Where was that?

27 27 It was right behind where he was probably sitting or on his knees. Well, when you say behind? Well, if you re looking out the window, here he was here (indicating with finger on table the positions). The books where they were creased where he let his rifle rest Uh-huh. The paper sack and stuff was over back around like this behind kind of behind him would have been behind him. Oh, If you re standing and looking straight out the window, would it be to your right, to your left, or behind you? It d have been kind of behind him. Well, Let s put you just a few feet away from the window, and you re looking straight out the window, straight south down Houston Street. angle. You can t look very well straight south. You d have to look at an Well, I m just talking about looking in that direction. Yeah, it d of been behind him. Straight out the building. It would have been behind him because if you was standing sitting here and looking this a-way, this sack and all that was in this area here (indicating position on tabletop, off camera) kind of northeast of him. So, the sack then would be the left of the window as you re looking out? Is that what you re saying? (0:45:21) No, that window s right in the corner. Uh-huh. And of course, I don t remember that window from the pictures. And of course, I d like to see the original picture because it stuck in my mind as the other window instead of the one they got open. Oh, really? Hmmm.

28 28 (smiling) And because he had more room, but I can t prove that because I don t have a picture of it. In the archives, I m sure have they showed you all any of those pictures out of the archives? pictures. There s there s only three. The crime lab guys only took three And of the three, you can t really see much other than the shells, but there s some Channel 8 news film that shows it. And there was a box on the windowsill, correct? Well, it wasn t up on the windowsill. No? It was sitting on the floor because that s where I put my elbows on the windowsill, and if there had been boxes sitting up on it, I couldn t even of looked out the window. Well, that s true. They put them if they the show says up there I was standing up there when he (indicating Stephen) came up there, that it was reconstructed, which I knew it had been. And did they put it back like it was after they messed around up there looking for evidence? Well, that s that s the way the boxes appear in the photographs, including the Channel 8 news film. And the box that s actually sitting on the windowsill it s kind of at an angle I mean, that s the way the box shows in the news photo. Yeah, those boxes were sitting at an angle all right, but they wasn t on the windowsill because if they had of been, I couldn t of put my elbows on that windowsill and looked out the same window without doing something. You would have been And I didn t have to move nothing. Didn t have to move anything?

29 29 No, sir, and I didn t touch nothing. That s how come I put my elbows on the windowsill not to leave no fingerprints on nothing. The boxes I let me I have to think back because the people that were here before I was moved the boxes around. Then when I came here in 1994, I knew about the Channel 8 news film and my predecessors did not. So, I used the news film, and I moved the boxes around the match the news film and the three still photographs. And the box on the windowsill is actually more it s to the left half of the open window. So, I wonder if maybe you could have looked out the right half of the window. That way, you wouldn t have had to move anything. Well, that s the window that appeared to me to be up, and it s closed now (smiling). there. Well, it s it s actually it s halfway open, but there s Plexiglas Yeah, I know it is. So, it s a little confusing. Yeah, I know it is. So, your memory is that the open window was which one? The one closest to the corner or the one next to it? No, the one away from the corner. Away from the corner? But I can t prove it (chuckling). Right. But that sticks in my mind it was. I told Channel 11 the morning we was standing down here on the twenty-fifth anniversary, I said, That s the wrong window that s open. But I can t prove it because I don t have a picture of it.

30 30 There s a home movie of the motorcade or of Kennedy s car going underneath the window. You can actually see it. And the window in the corner is the one that s open. The one that s next to it is not. Now, this film ends no more than five seconds before the shooting begins. So, how interesting Yeah, it s interesting because they disturbed everything up there after we all left, and I just wish I d of had a camera to shot that picture like I found it. But I didn t. Your hindsight s always better than your foresight. they call it. Oh, sure (chuckling). Monday morning quarterbacking, I think (laughing) That s exactly right. Did I ask you this before? Were there any Depository employees that were walking around with you guys when you were searching? (shaking head) They wasn t with me. Did you I was Did you I was the only feller messing around on that floor because everybody else had left and went up on the other floor and didn t find nothing. And I suppose they left and went downstairs, went on back down. They didn t come back down there with me. (0:50:12) So, you were the only one on the sixth floor? I was the only one up there at that time, by myself. When when you found the shells? When I found the shells. So, how did you tell other people what you had found?

31 31 I didn t tell nobody else till I hung my head out the window and told Fritz, and I didn t say nothing to nobody else. And of course, I stood there until Fritz got there because there wasn t nobody. I didn t talk to nobody else. Well, I think there s one other one of the deputies came on by there, and he peeped over in there. I didn t have to tell him nothing (chuckling). So, then they pulled the yellow tape around. I believe they put some yellow tape around. I m not sure of that. They normally do when they re sealing off evidence. Anything else we haven t covered? I mean, I read through your testimony and I tried to tried to jog your memory in all these different areas (Luke chuckles in background). So That s about all I can think of. Maybe we ve overlooked something that you want to know about. were there? I know what I can ask you. The shells that you found, how many Three. Three spent shells. Not two? Not two. Three. Not four? There was three. Were all three shells empty? They were, and how many was left in the rifle magazine? I ve heard there were two or three left. I don t know. There were some in the magazine, I understand. Well, the official story is that there was one unfired One unfired,

32 32 just local guys? in the clip. Did you see the clip on the rifle? No. Didn t see a clip? No. Were there any federal agents investigating at that point or was it As far as I know, there could have been some federal agents up there because we didn t em. Unless they pull their I.D. out and show you, you don t know who they are. Did you know They re plainclothes, too. Did you know the other guys who were up there searching? All I knew was after I found the stuff was I knew they were city city officers and deputy sheriffs. want to talk about? Stephen: Any other areas we haven t touched on that you d that you I can t think of none. My memory s pretty short (laughing). (chuckling) Stephen, did you have any questions? No, let s get him to show the badge. Let s show us, yeah, show us the badge and what (picking up deputy sheriff s badge) Well, I ll just put it on. (attaching badge to jacket pocket) That s the way we wore em. We did this when we was in the office. That s the way we identified ourselves.

33 33 I see. That was the standard issue badge in those days? That was the standard issue. No, that one s a Or 58? The star badge was a I believe now, I m sure that star badge was issued in We could have still been using this <break in tape> Stephen: So we can get going here. We re going. Go ahead. I ll tell you this. People all the time walking up to me and said, I just now found out who you are because I saw you Total Running Time: 0:53:34 Transcribed by Stephen Fagin, September 2003 Unrevised For Research Purposes Only The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza