(TRANSVAAL PROVINCIAL DIVISION). BEFORE: The Honourable Mr. Justice DE W E T. (Judge President). THE STATE versus NELSON MANDELA AND OTHERS.

Transcription

1 H T A m u m s I IN THE SUPREME COURT OF SOUTH AFRICA. (TRANSVAAL PROVINCIAL DIVISION). PRETORIA; 29TH JANUARY 54, BEFORE: The Honourable Mr. Justice DE W E T. (Judge President). Cn the matter oft THE STATE versus NELSON MANDELA AND OTHERS. CHARGE: PLEA: 2 Counts of sabotage, All - not guilty. For the State: DR. YUTAR AND OTHERS. For the Defence: MR. BERRANGE AND OTHERS. - EXTRACT OF EVIDENCE - JOHN SINGANI. still under oath (Recalled) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BERRANGE: Singani, I would like to know something about your history. How old are you?--- 40, And you h a v e n t been a taxi driver all your life, Continued on page 2

2 -2- J. S l N G M l Have you?--- No, When did you first become a taxi driver? 1959 o I8 that when you got a licence to he a taxi dri ver?- 'Yes* And before that, you had a car, did you not?? did. And what did you use that car for? 1 went to work in my car. 1*111 not saying this in any spirit of discredit to you, but 1 just want to find out the fact - before yo" got a licence to become a taxi driver, you were using you^ car for going...for transporting persons for gain, wero you not? pirate Taxi driver?---yes, that is correct, For how long were you doing +1/iat? T~ Now you say up until 1959* you used to us a youi- car also to go to work? Or was that until 1957? 1 commenced using my car from 1957, that is for the purposes of going J:o work, and I acquired a licence in as a pirate taxi? 1 see, and between 1957 and 1959 you also use'3 Yes. You say you used it for going to work - what,v; your work?- 1 was employed by a firm. What was the finn? Cadbury Fry, What were they manufacturing? chocolates and sweets. remember from when. And how long were you working for them?--- I cannot How long were you employed by them?! had already JS oompleted 10 years work there. 30 With this firm?--- Yes. And before that, where were you working?--- At the

3 -3- J-, u.i NGANI, G,P,0. What as? -I was a labourer digging drains for the purposes of laying cables. Now when you were ^l\s* 'Nh&Si *3. what was the nature of your work?- General labourer, that is sweeping the floors and cleaning up. Not on any machines or anything?- I also worked at machines, but 1 was told this was not my job. In other words, they were using you where perhaps they shouldn t have been using you. Anyway, you did work 10 on machines? Yes, And who did you take yo&r orders from? - d o n t want his name - you had a foreman 1 suppose?---yes, I had a foreman. And you used to receive your orders and instructions from him? Correct* What was his nationality?--- He was a european. And then you joined the A.N.C, you tell us, in 1952?. Yes. You beoame a Freedom Volunteer for Zone 0? Yes.20 Now I don t want to go through it again, w e ve been told by a number of people what the duties of these volunteers were? Yes. Amongst the duties were to carry on the hard work of the A.N.C.?--- Yes. To paint slogans, distribute pamphlets or leaflets, ig that correct? Yes, 1 did distribute leaflets, I did however, not paint slogans on the walls. And amongst the duties too, were to educate other people in the political aims of the A.N.C,? To tell them 30 about it? Yes, And you would also do that from what the leaflets

4 J. SlNGANl. told you?- -Yes. Now when you...you ve also go*^ to sign a form every year for the transportation board xiave you not, for the taxi? Yes, there is a form which has to be signed. And filled in by you?--- Yes. you've always done that? Yes, Did you know what you were signing? Were you able to read what you were signing? I don t want you to deny it, I just want to know whether you read what you were signing? Yes, I knew it was for the purpose of acquiring 10 a triangle for that year. And the leaflets that you used to distribute, and the education which you gave to other members in the A.N.C. which you took from leaf I 4'q ~~ read those leaflets? -Yes, 1 have read the papers. And talking about reading the papers, do you read the daily papers? I can't read the european press, but 1 can read those Xhosa ones. What about the leaflets?--- They were in Xhosa. Always? Weren t they mainly in English? -Some 20 were in English, some were in Xhosa, and I read those that were in Xhosa, And the foreman vvh^ u s ^ J-'' i-" struct ions when you were on the machines, at Cadbury s, did he give you instructions in English, and did you understand them? Yes, he used to speak in English, but then there were those above us, who could speak English, English, There were those above us who? Could speak You say you can understand English?--- A little, 30 You can understand what I m sc.-ying io you, without

5 -5- J. SlNGANl, S&b an interpreter, I m not saying you shouldn't have onei--- No, I want assistance from the interpreter* I don't want to take it away, but you can understand what I m saying, I'm going to leave the interpreter? I can snatch a word here and there. You can snatch a word here and there.' If I say to you I don't know, do you understand that? I don't know?- That I do# When I say to you I was not there, do you understand that?--- That I do, 10 If I say to you I can see that box, do you understand that? I hear. So we know now that you can understand at least basic English, Right, now you gave evidence last week, did you not, for the first time?- Yes. When was that?--- Friday. Yes, what date?--- I can't say what the date is. And then you gave evidence again on Monday? That is so. What date was that? I can t aay, I don't know20 what the date was, (Witness is asked to speak louder). (Mr. Berraiige is also asked to speak louder). What's the date today? I do not know, I did not look to see what date it was. Bo you know dates? I do. I'll tell you why - because you gave one date, and then corrected your second, and gave a nother date, when you were telling us of the occasion in which you say you took Mandela to the sea. Now what year was it?- It was in '61.30 But first of all, you said 1962 and then you corrected yourself? And in giving your evidence, whilst you

6 J. SlNGANl, X I 1 were giving your evidence in chief and you were then led "by the my learned friend for the State, on one occasion you said I am not certain about the places I'm being asked about. Do you remember saying that?--- Yes, I did say so. What did you mean by that? Had you forgotten the the ones places?- You mean/that I referred to about Mandela? No, no, no, not about Mandela - actually you were talking about meeting Jospeh Jank, and you said you had to fetch some goods at Ring Street, and then you went to say two things - you said "I'm not certain of the places I'm 10 being asked about, and the next thing you said was "can you fix me up as far as Tongwani was concerned"? And my learned friend said I'm not going to fix you up at allj What did you mean by that? Had you forgotten what you had come to say?--no, I haven*t forgotten what I had to say here. Now why did you ask whether he could fix you up with this, why did you say that you were not certain of the places that you were being asked a b o u t?-- 1 was certain about I the places that I was asked about, but then I was asked about a specifie thing and I made that reply, 20 Why? I don't know which places you are now particularly referring to, N«w what places were you referring to when you said you were not certain of them? Can you tell us? Yes, \ What places were you referring to then, when you said you weren't certain of them?---about those places that they went to. Do you mean on the night that they were in the car? Well, Your Worship when they got out of my car they had 30 things with them, they had to get out and walk in a direction, but I can't say that they went to that place specifically.

7 -7- J. SlNGANl, Is that what you were referring to?--- Yes. That can t be so, you know, beoause at the time you said you w e r e n t certain of the place that you were being asked about, you h a d n t even reached the place, or the stage in which you were in the car that night. Oh well, let's get on* Now you say you gave evidence last Friday which is correct, you came back to Court on the Moiday after the weekend?-- Yes. And somehow your memory seems to have been remarkably' refreshed, between the Monday and the Fridayj Now I m 10 going to deal with three instances in which your memory was so refreshed. Now you say that you drove No, 1 Accused to a meeting at Mbeki's(?) place?---yes. And I want to put it to you that No. 1 Accused, will deny that you ever took him therej Although he will admit, Mandela, will admit that he in fact, go to and attend that meetingi So you didn't take him therej- I don't know, but the people who spoke said he was Mandela. You yourself don't know whether he was this man in Court? You're not sure?--- 1 know him now, he looks like 20 the man that had hired me to take him there. The man who hired you to take him there, what did he look like? Govan Mbdfci was one of them who hired me. 1 You know, you're not answering my question! What did he look like, the man whom you took there? (Mr. Berrange asks interpreter what he has been saying every time).--- He says I know the man whom I took there. Now what did this man look like?- He shone somewhat. He shone, yes?--- He had a beard, 30 A big beard? Yes, he is the person whom I fetched. 1 took him to the house of Dr.,..,

8 -8- J". SlNGANl, QJL<^ No, no - I'm asking you what he looked like, don't worry about getting him to a placej-- Yes, he had a shine about him and... * And a beard?- And a beard. And a moustache?---yes. Now do you say that that man is Mandela, No, 1 Accused, or are you not sure? By THE COURT TO WITNESS: Well look at No, 1 Accused,--- (Witness looks at No. 1 Accused). CROSS-EgAMlNATlON BY MR. BERRANGE (CONTINUED): 10 What do you say?--- I'm certain it is him. I'm glad you said that - now we can go on] On Monday - may I just put this to you too - I told you that Mandela will admit that he went to this meeting. He won't deny itj But I told you he denies that you took him there, he said actually he walked, and I want to suggest to you, and it will be suggested in due course to His Lordship, that you have been told to give this false evidence! It wasn't known that Mandela would admit his presence at this meeting! --- I Say it is him, 20 Allright, Now I want to read to you your evidence that you gave on the Monday - you said, that is on Friday, "1 looked to see if I could identify No, 1 Accused, but I did not do so, but I identified No, (7) and (4). That is Govan Mbeki and Raymond Mhlaba". Then the question was put to you, question and answer - "later, did you have a further view of Accused No, (1)?" Your answer was "I did not recognise him on Friday, as when I saw him he had a big face, and was full of beard". Remember that? I remember that. Then the question was put "why did you not iden- 30 tify him on Friday?" - "On Friday he was not sitting as he is now, his face was only half visible". Do you remember that?

9 -9- J. SlNGANlE. Yes# I remember that. Now I want to read out to you what you said on the Friday! Do you remember that on the Friday as soon as you had been sworn and warned, you were asked to look at all the accused?- Yes, Then the question was put to you "do you know No, 1 Accused, Mandela?"- Yes. And you said "no, I do not", I said so* And then you pointed out Nos, (4) and No, (7)? Yes, 10 Then you went on to say later on in your "No, (4) accused told me to fetch Mandela"(that is the occasion when you went to the sea?--- Yes, evidence, Bythe way, before I go on, did No. (4) tell you his full name? Did he say Mandela? Nelson Mandela?---- No, he said Mandela. You said I took him to the sea? Yes, Then the question was put to you "how did Mandela look then"? Yes, And your reply was, now remember the question - 20 "how did he look then"? that is when you took him to the sea - you*reply was "I can't describe him, as I was not accustomed to him". Do you remember that?--- I said so. Why? Why didn't you say he was a man with a full face, and shone, and who had a big beard? When you were asked to describe him? Why did you say you can't describe him as you weren't accustomed to him? I didn't recognise him then properly whether it was him. No, no, no! You weren't,,.the question wasn't were you recognising him. The question was "how did Mandel&O look then"? That is when you took him to the sea! And you said "I can't describe him as 1 was not accustomed to him".

10 -10- J. SlNGANi. <23/ 1 did say so. Why? Why did you say you can't describe him? I said I was told to go and fetch Mandela, and 1 took Mandela to the sea. Would you be so kind as to answer my question? If you say he was a man with a big face who shone, and had a big beard, why did you tell His Lordship that you were unable to describe him? Well, when I looked at the accused, 1 looked for this person with the beard, and I didn t see this person with the beard, 10 You weren't being asked that question, you were being asked the question at the time that you took him to the sea what did this mar n ook 1-ke! You said you couldn't tell what he looked likei Bu you came back and told His Lordship that he was a man who has a big face and his face was full of beardj Why didn't you say that on the Friday?! wasn't quite certain, because he has now removed his beard. Oh, you're not quite certain whether he had a beard 20 on the occasion that you took him to the sea, is that it? Is that what you're saying? -No, when I took him to the sea he had a beard. looked? Right, why d i d.you ca; j ^ ^ dn** know how he Well, when 1 was asked, I looked for this man with a beard, and I couldn't see him. Then why didn't you say "the man I took had a beard"? Let me put the next question - the question was to you "did he have a moustache"? That s what my learned friend asked you. Your reply was "1 cannot say", and then the next question was, this was on the Friday, "did he have a 30 beard"? Your reply was "I cannot say". that? Yes, Do you remeriber

11 -11- J. SlNGANl* 233 Why did you say that?---d i d n t 1 say Friday that he did have a heard. On Friday you said you didn't know whether he had beard or notj Why?-You must be mistaken. 1 did Friday that he did" have a beard. You did say that did you? But you've already told us that you said on Friday that you were unable to describe him as you weren't accustomed to him! Isn't that so?----yes. Then a further question was put to you - "did you know who he was?" You said "No, I didn't know him, it waslo the first time I'd seen him". Did you know who he was? I knew him. Your reply was "I didn't know him".' You see on the Monday when you came to Court,, you told His Lordship, you said the following words "I did not identify Mandela on Friday, because when 1 saw him he had a big face and a full beard", Yes, Why then were you able to identify him on the Monday? Did anybody talk to you about it? No, nobody reminded me. 20 Well, if you weren't able to identify him on the Friday, because he had a big beard on the occasion that you saw him, why were you able to identify him on the Monday?- 1 looked, 1 didn't see him, and then I remembered. You remembered what?--- What he looked like when I took him to the sea. Yes, does he look like that now? And you've only met him, according to your evidence, V k\ on two occasions? rr-yes, No, And they were at dusk?-- When I took him to the 30 sea, it was during the daytime. Yes, and how many years ago is this?----it was about

12 -12- J* SlNGANl About 1961? How many years ago?- Two - three with Two? BY TB COURT TO MR. BERRANGE: Three if you include CROSS-EXAMlNAglpN BY MR. BERRANGE (CONTlNUED)r Oh, three if you include 1961, and during that time you've driven thousands of people in your occupation as a taxi driver? Yes. And now you perport to identify No. 1 Accused 10 after nearly three years? He looks quite different now from what he looked then? Yes, except that in this respect I was told to go and fetch him. Yes, that s got nothing to do with it. You were told to fetch Mandela, is that why y o u re identifying him? That s what makes me remember - that I was told to fetch Mandela. That's what makes you remember that this is the man? That is him. Then why didn't you say so on the Friday? -I 20 made a mistake. I see. Who put your mistake right for you during the interval? I made a mistake on the Friday, I d i d n t recognise him. BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Yes, but when did you recognise him? Mandela? After I left the witness box, I gave the matter thought, and then I remembered. CROSS-E3CAMlNATlON BY MR. BERRANGE (CONTINUED): Nobody suggested that you might give it a bit of thought? No. 30 Then I m going to give you one more opportunity of answering the questions I ve put to you so many times. Why

13 -13- J, SlNGANl. did you, on the Friday, tell Hie Lordship, that you were unable to describe this man whom you took to the sea? Because I didn't see a beard and his face looked smaller. You re not answering my questionj You wereasked "what did this man look like when you took him to the sea"? and you said you don't know, you can't describe'' him. Why did you say that? I've put the question to you six times or morel What's your answer?--- My reply is, I know Mandela, **** Allright, Tell me when was this that you took him for a 8wim, and I may tell you right away, that thoughlo it doesn't appear to be of much importance, Mandela will deny that you took him for a swim - when was this? About the fourth month of 1961, And I think you told His Lordship when you gave, evidence, that you saw him on the second occasion (that is when you took him to the meeting) three or four months thereafter, is that correct?--- Yes. So what was the four*b month in 1961? What was the name of that month? The fourth month of 1961 is April, And four months thereafter, that would be the 8th20 month, what would that be?--- The 8th month is August, The 8th month?- August, So then this meeting took place either in July or August?---,., Between the 7th or 8th month. The meeting to which you say you took Mandela?- The meeting to which I took him was during the fourth month. Now you took him to the meeting during the fourth month?---yes. I see, and the swim? Which month? -I can't 30 remember the month in which I took him to the sea. Was it in 1961 or I960? It was also during 1961,

14 -14- J. SINGANI* What interval of time had elapsed between the time that you took him for the swim and the time you took him to the meeting? About four months. So then it must have been somewhere in January, the first month, and that you took him to the sea?--- That could be, I d o n t know. And I'm interested to know from you Singani, why did you tell His Lordship that you took him to the sea during the third or fourth month of Do you remember you repeated that to me again this morning? Yes, 10 And then you took him to the meeting three or four months after?--- Yes. That would be July or August? Yes. Now which is right? Lid you take him to the mee-_ ting in July or August, or did you take him to the meeting in April?--- I took him to the meeting in April, So then the evidence that you gave on Friday is wrong!---i ve probably forgotten the dates and the months. I wonder who's been reminding you? Anybody?--- Nobody's reminded me, 20 Tell me what is the date on which you picked up* these cartons? What is the date I ask you, on which you picked up these cartons? I can't remember that date. the month either. You can't remember the month?--- I cannot remembe And you say that after having picked up these J cartons, you had another trip on which you went to a number of places of the fire and the labour?--- Yes. How many days was it after the occasion upon which30 you picked up the cartons, that you went on this trip to the place of the fire? -One day. H i

15 -15- J, SINGANI* Now do you remember what you said in your evidence on the Friday? I think you repeated it on the Monday* but I*m not quite sure. The question was "what month and year was itj you went to pick up these cartons'*?, i and you said "I'm not certain, if it is the 15th of Deoember 1961"* told you that date? I spoke here, Nobody told me that date. Who Why did you give it?--- I remember this the day when You remember what?--- I remember it on the,.,1 remember it because I spoke to you on that day, 10 But why did you tell his Lordship a few minutes ago that you can't even remember the month in which you picked up the cartons? You said so.' What's your answer please? I don't know whether I you're referring to my having fetched them at the cold storage * or at Ring Street, t Fetched what?--- I don't know whether you mean whether I fetched them at Court Chambers or at Ring Street, I'm talking about the occasion on which you fetched some three cartons! That's the only occasion you've spoken 20 about,' I asked you just now what day and what month was it, and you said you couldn't even remember the monthi Now you sey you remember it was the 15th of December 1961? Why do you say that if you can't even remember the month? 1 re j,, membered the date on the day when 1 gave my evidence. Was your evidence read back to you, is that why i : you were able to remember it? Before you gave evidence? It was not. Well, then how were you able to remember it on Friday and not remember it today?-,,,# 30 if, 1 What's your answer? I thought and then i knew it, j... Why didn't you know it today?,,,.

16 -16- J. s i n g a n I. <237 Why d o n t you know it today! I had forgotten it. You d even forgotten the month - "because you know when you gave your evidence in chief, you said rather a peculiar thing when you were asked about the date! You didn t say the 15th of December 1961, what you said was J, j Do you remember that?---now that you reminded me, yes. J You said , and you ask his Lordship to believe that nobody has suggested the date to youj told me that. Wednesday today. ON RESUMING: Nobody And you d o n t even know today's date?--- I t s 10 You don't know the date! I don't know the date y,,1, v.. ' - -V i l J P f AT IHlS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS UNT-tL 2 P.M. JOHN SlNGANi, still under oath CROSS-EXAMINATION BYJMR. BERRANGE (CONTINUED)t Now Singani, I suppose you know to go and blow up and bomb buildings is a very serious off ence?--yes, And I suppose you think i t s a very wrong thing to do? Yes. 20 of? Yes, Y Yes. Is it not the sort of thing that you would approve Nor is it the sort of thing that you would do?--- And I don't suppose you would be ready and prepared to help people, if you knew that they were going to bomb buildings?---yes. Now I want to deal with the night on which you say that you went to Ring Street, I think it is? You've already told us you stayed there in the motorcar?--- Yes, 30 And you told us that you stopped at the beginning of the -Russel Road sign? Yes. i

17 -17- J* SINGANJ-* T T I want you to tell us in your own words, leave you on your own to tell His Lordship- what happened,. you arrived at this place,,,?---yes, And what happened then?-* You mean from Ring Street? Yes, when you arrived at Ring Street, you were told to stop, now from that moment onwards what happened then? I stopped there, they got out, W h o se they? All of them? All of them. They got out of the car? Yes* What did you 4o?- I stopped and remained in the 10 car# Did you?---yes, How long did you wait?--- It w a s n t a long time that I waited. Yes, and then? Whilst I was sitting there, they returned to the car. This was at night time, wasn t it?---about 7 o clock. Well, night had fallen?--- Yes, BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Was it dark?--- It w a s n t very dark.20 CROSS-ETAMlNATlON BY MR. BERRANGE (COffT-TOED): The sun had set?---yes, And you say it was 7 o clock? Round-about 7 o clock. Had night fallen?---yes, a little. What do you mean by that? What I mean is it was not dark as you describe dark. Well, look just tell His Lordship,, from the time that you arrived at Ring Street to the time that you say you left to go home, how long did that take? How many mi-30 nutes or hours? -You mean until we went home? Till we went home? W h o s we? I m not quite cer-

18 -18- J* SlNGANl. tain* Would you repeat your question please? You say "until we went home, I'm asking you who the we is? Jospeh Jack, Raymond Mhl&ba and Silas Mtongwane Three of them?---and others whom I did not know, that were from the Tranakei, How many of you were there, that went hom together Three * That can*t be threej You've given His Lordship the names of three, and you mentioned the two men from the Transkei - that's fivej--- When we left Ring Street to 10 go to Feinstein(?) there was seven of us. No, no, no, BY THE COURT TO MR. BERRANGE; Well, don't interrupt him, let him tell his story. BY THE COURT TO WITNESS: Let him say it? When we got to Feins"fei-n, I put three people off. Yes, and then?--- Then there remained three. Yes? We then went in the direction of the labour. Yes? -I then separated there from them and I went u home. 20 rs Yes, but counsel asked you the names, you talked about we went home, I d o n t know if you understood the interpreter. Did you understand him? Did you understand the question? I didn't quite hear that, that we went home. Yes, well the question was put to you, you went home, I don't know if that was interpreted in the singular or the plural, if your answer was we went?--- From Ring Street, I went hom. CROSS-EEAMlNATlON BY MR. BERRANGE (CONTINUED): From Ring Street you went home!---no, no, we first30 went to Frameby. Look, my question was a very simple one - I asked

19 -19- J. SlNGANA. & f G you how long elapsed "between the time you were at Ring Street until the time you went home, and then you were the one who said, we went hom, and I -ten said to you, who is We? I must have misunderstood you. I want to suggest to you that it is not a misunderstanding. I want to suggest to you that indeed the whole story you ve given about the incidents of that night, was a complete fabrication! That's why you were forgetting yourself when you said we went home!--i'm explaining things, what I know, and that is right and what I saw, 10 Well, you've said that - now I m still asking you the question. What period of time elapsad between the time that you arrived at Ring Street and the time that you went home? A long time, from when I left Ring Street until I went home. How long? It would be about an hour. Is that all?- Yes, it could be more. Anyway, let s come back now. You say that it was 7 o'clock that you arrived at Ring Street? -Yes, about 7 o'clock. 20 The others got out of the car?--- Yes, ' j You remained seated in the car? Yes, -S, J Now I want you to tell us in detail what happened when the others returned to the car? What did each one of them do and what did you do?- They entered the car on their return. Yes? They were accompanied by a white man. Now you were still sitting in the car then?--- Yes, You hadn't got out? -I got out when I saw them approaching, 30 Why did you say you were still sitting in the car? - I was in the car all the t i m e, but when I saw them 'II

20 -20- J. SlNGANA, 3W- ( approaching I got out. Look - you said they got into the car, and I put the question to you, and you were still sitting in the car, and you said yes? Whilst they were approaohing I was in the car. I asked you where were you when they got into the car, and you said you were still sitting in the carl Did you say that? No, when 1 saw them coming I got out of the car. Why!? i didn t know where they were going to 10 put the articles that they had, whether it was in the boot or where. How far away were they when you saw them approaching and you got out of the car? They were crossing the street coming to the car. It was then I got out and opened the boot* Even before they even got up to you? They were approaching me, they were coming to the oar. They h a d n t reach you yet? When they got up to the car, I was behind the car. 20 When you got out of the oar, they had not reached you yeti They h a d n t got up to the car when I got out. Why did you think that they wanted to put these articles in the oar? It could be that they wanted to put things into the boot of the car. Did you think they wanted to?- That's what I thought. So you got out of the car. Now then I want to read to you your evidence that you gave on the Monday - that is the 27th, This is what you said - I ll put the question to you 30 first. The question was "Tell us what was put into the boot"?

21 -21- J. SlNGANA. u l 2 Do you remember that?- 1 remember, Your answer was the following "two cardboard boxes"?---yes, 3 ' These boxes contained plastic bags"?- Yes, "Also half a sugar pocket full of sand"?---yes, "And there were bottles containing meal"?- Yes, "Also small pipes containing this black powder or ground stuff"? Yes, That's what you saidi--- I did not mention meqlie j nrnwin mum...11^ meal here on Monday. fw 1» t # No, but that is what you said on the Monday - you said there were bottles containing meal and then it was described as being any sort of ground powderj- Yes. And you said there was also some small pipes which contained this ground powderi Yes, Right, now I want to read to you the questions and the answers, the questions that were put to you and the answers that you gave on the FridayJ Do you remember this gentleman was questioning you?--- Yes, 2 And he asked you what were the persons carrying when they returned to you at Ring Street, and this was your answer - "they had a oarton and a plastic bag and a sugar pocket with sand",---yes, Then the question was put to you 'how many cartons did they have"? Your reply was "only one". Remember that? - I don't remember that, there were two when we left Ring Street, I'm just telling you what your reply was - "only one" Then the question was put to you "did they have any other things?" Your reply was "the other things I am not sure of." Then my learned friend for the State wasn't satisfied with that - he then said to you "try to remember", then you said

22 -22- J. SlNGANA. "the parcels looked as if they contained mealie meal". Then the question was put to you again "did they have anything else?" Your reply was "1 don't know". Now i*m not worrying about the meal at the present moment. You were asked did they have any other things, and then you said they had a carton a plastic bag and a sugar pooket with sand. You were asked did they have any other things, your reply 1,1 *m not sure of them", and when the question was put to you again, "did they have anything else"? You said "I don't know", and then the question was put for the~ third time "did you see 10 anything else"? Your reply was I saw nothing else. Why \ did you say that? I said so, I spoke about things that I knew. That was the carton, the plastic bag and the befrfe^re of sand. Then you were asked three times did they have anything else. First of all, you said you're not sure of it, and later at the end on the third question you said "I saw nothing else". Why did you say that? That I said when we left Framesby, but when we left Ring Street there was not one carton. 20 We're talking about Ring Street, and the questions \ were put to you about what happened at Ring Street, what you had seen them put into the carl The question was asked "what did the passengers carrying when they returned to you at Ring Street?" You said a carton and a plastic bag and a sugar pocket, Then you were asked whether you saw naything else, and you said "I saw nothing else", in the end. Why did you say that?---i did not mention one cardboard, I mentioned two. Then I also mentioned these little pipes and foe powder, 30 But that Isn't so you know? BY THE COURT TO MR, BERRANGE: I m ' t that so? Didn't you

23 -23- J, SINGANA, aifif inform the Court that the accused said that he mentioned pipes and the interpreter hadn't put it? mention that. No, he didn't That is what you informed the Court of just nowi I didn't my Lord, my learned friend did, and Your Lordship will remember that I said... (Further discussion). Your Lordship will recollect at the time, 1 said to Your Lordship that I knew that there had been some discussion between my learned friend, after your Lordship had adjourned, that I was not accepting My learned friend's version of this, andlo 1 said that I will leave it for cross-examination. Yes, very well. Well, the witness says that he did mention pipes, that's what he says. That*s his answer to you now, that he did mention these two pipes.--- Yes, but he did have the question put to him three times by my learned friend, "was there anything else"? The first time he said "I'm not sure", then he said "I don't know", and the last time he said "I saw nothing else", PROSS EXAMINATION BY MR.' BERRANGE (CONTINUED); ---Yes, I did say so, 20- You did say so. Let me put this to you - I asked you this morning whether you could understand me when I said in English to you "can you see this box?",?--- Yes, And a number of other things I put to you?--- Yes, Which you can understand in English, and a little while ago you indicated that you could understand English so well, that you actually corrected the interpreter, * this interpreter while has in the process of putting a question, do you remember that?--- Is that when you were asking me quesv: tions?*. 30 Yes, a little while ago. Now you told His Lordship that you understand the english words "I can see this

24 -24- J, SiNGANA. Z q.5 box". Do you understand the English words, "did you see anything else"? Do you understand those words? -No, Do you understand the words "I saw nothing else"* Do you understand those words?- Not all of them. Well, what do you understand when 1 say "I saw nothing else"?,.,. Do you understand the words "I don't know"? I understand. And do you understand the words "the other things 1 am not sure of"?-»-i understand the word things. 10 And other?- The others, no. And sure of? Sure?-----No. And yet you corrected the interpreter a little while agoi When he was putting a question to you, before it was translated to youj---that's the part that I knew. Yes, you must have understood what 1 was saying! I In order to correct the interpreter, not so? Yes.! Now you see the question was put to you "did they have any other things"? And the interpreter interpreted you as saying "the other things I'm not sure of". The ques-20 tion was put to you again "did they have anything else"? and j the interpreter interpreted you as saying "I don'tsjasw 1 Did you correct the interpreter at the time, and tell him or tell His Lordship that he wasn't interpreting you correct ly?--- 1 don't know what to do Your Worship, I've never been in Court before, other than now,...* Because I know that you have been in Court before! Have you been in Court before now!? I have been in Court before,. -~^4 * ^ -*'.. v. Have you given evidence before? No, I was never 30 a witness. You'd swear that you have never given evidence,y..nr»

25 -25 JV SINGANA, 2 lfic.j33p,ore?-->-no, I was never a witness. You swear that you have never given evidence he-/... j* 1 fore?---no, -..- Do you remember the case of Dr, Patha? *Yee* ( Your name is Singana?*- Yes, When was this case heard?-,,,. Only a short time agoj-i think it was December, j Yes, only a month agoi You gave evidence and you said you are a registered self-employed taxi, is th t correct? You answer was 1,1 am a taxi driver, yes. You wereloi asked if you knew Govan Mbeki, you said you knew him, and so \ on. You were cross-examined and your evidence actually took up six tyed pages, is that true? -Yes, Why did you tell His Lordship a moment ago twice that you had never been in Court before and that you had never given evidence? I'm being questioned now, All I meant, on the manner in which I beg your pardon?---what 1 meant by that is the manner in which I'm being questioned now. No, no, no. The excuse you gave for correcting 20 the interpreter, was that you said that you didn*t know what to do as you had never been in Court beforel I then asked you whether you had given evidence before, and you said you had never given evidence before] Was that true?- Yes, I've / already forgotten that incident. - mp..,..v. I see, you had forgotten that you've given evidence beforej Where at Graaf Reinett? Anywhere! Have you given evidence so many times? How many times have you given evidence!? Now be careful! As a witness the second time today. 30 Ye»?-r**If iim not mistaken. Yes, -How many times have you been in Court?

26 -26- J, SINGANA* Third time today if I m not mistaken, Ws> fr0j2 *t worry about your excuse that you've never been in Court 'before. Now the Xhosa word for a pipe *e "inbobo", not so?- -*Yes. fessel tfea Th.asa word for any powder which may include meal - flour i-s "i-ngubo"? -Yes. I see, and you are wanting to tell His Lordship that the interpreter misinterpreted you by saying that you had said mealiemeal, that is "ingubo", instead of a pipe which is "inbobo"? Is that what you re sayin g?- Do you 10 mean in regard to the question of the mealiemeal? Yes, and the pipes!---yes, he must have understood me wrong about the question of the mealiemeal. Yes, he used "ingubo" instead of "inbobo", is that it?- He made a mistake with mealiemeal. Do you understand the English word mealiemeal?- Yes, I do. So when the interpreter said to His Lordship that you had said the parcels contained mealiemeal, and you had really said pipes, you never corrected the interpreter, al- 20 tiough you understood what he said? I did hear him speak about mealiemeal, but I thought that would be understood. You did, because it was a black powder I suppose? You. thought that mealiemeal would be understood as a black I powder? No, I heard that he was mentioned that. You heard that he was mentioning mealiemeal - not meal but mealiemeal? -Yes. / You did nothing to correct it! But lets take it a bit further - then my learned friend put to you what was the colour of the mealiemeal? So you heaxl him ask what30 was the colour of the mealiemeal? Yes. And you said it was black? -Yes.

27 -27- J. SINGANA. Now you say that although you said the colour of the mealiemeal was "black, he should have been speaking about pipes! BY THE COURT TO MR. EERRANGE: the mouth of the witness Mr. Berrange. You're just putting words into He never said that meal was translated as ip- ;pes, he said he mentioned pipes he might have mentioned that in addition to the meal!---i understood him to say that a moment ago, hut I may be mistaken. No, he hasn't said that at all! 10 CROSS-BCAMlNATiQN BY MR. BERRANGE (CONTENUED): Well is that the position? When you heard my learned friend ask ypu what was the colour of the mealiemeal, what do you think he was referring to?---i thought that the person who interpreted could speak Xhosa and that he would and that he would bring up all these... No, no, noj--- various things. What did you think he was referring to? What did you think this gentleman was referring to, when he asked you what was the colour of the mealie meal? I thought he was 20 trying to get it clear about this powder that was being discussed. Now then let's get back to the other aspect! Right! You know what the word one means, don't you? -Yes* 1,2,3,4,5*6, do you know that?- I do. After you said that they had a carton, a plastic bag and a sugar pocket of sand, the question was put to you specifically "how many cartons did they have", and the interpreter interpreted you as saying "one". Did you say that to the interpreter?- I said there were two. And if he interpreted you as saying one, he misinterpreted you? If he said one, he did not interpret *,.»

28 -28- J. SlNGANA. correctly, because there were two. I see, it's that that your memory was refreshed I, * over the interval? No, nobody reminded me. _ But Singana you told His Lordship that you understand what the word "one" means, and you must understand when a man says "how many cartons", that you can't help to understand, correct?- Yes. So then you heard my learned friend saying "how many cartons were there", and you heard the interpreter say I "one" and you never correct that?---1 did not hear the inter-*10 preter saying it was one. nothing else?---yes. Lid you hear the interpreter saying that you saw You did, well then why didn't you mention when you gave your evidence in chief that there had been bottles. Just let me put it to you this way - you told His Lordship now that you heard the interpreter, say that you saw nothing else, that's besides the sand, the plastic bag and the sugar pocket, and you say a pipe. Why didn't you mention the bottles when you first gave evidence?---i mentioned them. 20 You say you mentioned them to the interpreter, and he never interpreted it?---i mentioned to the interpreter about the bottles that were there. again on Friday. BY THE COURT: It's the other way round - the Friday was before the Monday, On the Friday? I mentioned them on Monday and CROSS-ETAMiNAT-lON BY MR. BERRANGE (CONT-^MJED); Why didn t you mention to the interpreter that these bottles contained this powdery stuff? On the Friday? I do not know whether the interpreter mentioned it. Why didn't you mention that these plastic bags con

29 -29- J. SlNGANA. tained,,.also contained this "black stuff? BY THE COURT TO MR. BERRANGE: I'm not sure whether'he' «e^d the plastic bags contained the,..? -No, he said nothing My Lord, No he said there were plastic bags, he said,,,?--- A plastic bag, he said on the Friday, Ask him whether the plastic bag contained black powder, CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BERRANGE (CONTINUED): Why didn't you mention that? BY THE COURT TO MR, BERRANGE: On the first ocoasion he -waa 10 interpreted as saying that the plastic bags contained black powder, on the second occasion he didn't mention that the plastic bags contained anything at alii No, My Lord I think it's the other way round, if I may correct Your Lordship, No, that's according to my note? Yes, on the first occasion he didn't say anything about the plastic bags containing, he said there was a plastic bag* On the second occasion he said that the plastic bags contained this dark powder, that was on the Monday. (Further discussion about 20 this aspect), 5 No, my note is that two cardboard boxes, plastic bags in them, half a sugar pocket full of sand and bottles containing powder, also small pipes containing powder; And then Your Lordship asked him whether they were transparent. That's the pipes, but there was never any enquiry as to why,..?- I understood the transparent pipes to be the plastic bag. No there was that evidence of small transparent 30 tubesl--- Your Lordship put it to him "you wouldn't be able to see inside these pipes". (Further discussion about pipes).

30 30 J. SINGANA* c25/ CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BERRANGE (CONTINUED): Well, what sort of pipes were these then, could you describe them?- These are small pipes, that I m talking bout. Made of what?---rubber. How big? A little smaller than my finger, (Indicates Index finger). How long? Same size as your finger, same size and thickness?--- Indicates approximately the length of the index finger* 10 Now when these men came at Ring Street, did you say you opened the boot for them?---- Yes. They put the things inside the boot and you closed it?- Yes. Did you lock it?-yes. And when you stopped at your first stopping place, did you unlock the boot again?--- Yes. And did they take half the articles out?---yes, And then you closed the boot again? Yes. And when they stopped at the last spot, did you 20 again open the boot? Yes, And did they take the things out* some of these men? Yes, And you closed the boot?- Yes. So at no time did you handle any of these articles? I personally did not. Well, then how were you able to tell that the trans-' parent pipes contained black powder? -Whilst the cartons were being placed in the boot, they w e r e n t closed. They were,,,?---they were not closed. 30 What was not closed?---the cartons. i know! i m not saying that the cartons were

31 J. SINGANA* closed! But here you see a number of little hags, you call them pipes, the size of the index finger, something black inside?---yes* They were full?---yes, and some that was spilt inside, What was spilt? How do you know it spilt from the bags? These pipes must have...it must have spilt from the j pipes. How do you know what you saw inside was spilt from the pipes?---well, they put it back into the pipes, and 10 they said it was spilt. They put it back into the pipe and said it was spilt, and none of this, I put it to you, did you mention when you first gave evidence! Nor did you mention any bottles, I want to put it to you, although you were asked three t times was there anything else!---i think I did mention bottles, I said that they looked like plastic bottles. You said they looked like plastic bottles - on the Friday?---I said so on Monday also, that there weye plastic bottles, 20 know] -i did. Yes, did you say so on Friday, that'8 what i want to Tell me when you gave evidence in Dr, Patha s case, had you been approached by the police beforehand to make a statement? They did not say so. Did they come and take a statement from you in the Case in which you gave evidence against Dr. Patha?--- They took a statement from me. Where were you when they took the statement?--- At the new Law Courts, Port Elizabeth. 30 What were you doing there? -I was arrested. Why were you arrested?! d o n t know, i was told

32 -32- J, S*NGANA. that i was being arrested. W er e n t you told why you were being arrested? «I Was told that there was suspicion about me carting things by oar* Did they tell you who was in the oar with you,., did they tell you who was suspected was in the car with you? No, So then they got you to give evidence in Dr. Patha's case? -Yes, I made an explanation. October, I am released. Yes, ahd when had you been arrested?---the 5th of 1 Are you still in custody? Have you been released? When were you released?---the day before Christmas, So you were in Custody for October, Novembber and most of December? -Yes. Now I want to come to this trip that you say you made - when was it, that night trip when you saw the bags, 1» nottles and things? I ve forgotten the date, ^,... ^ j t x i r l fetey,.' g * And the month?---and the month. Why did you tell His Lordship that it was on the 15th of December 1961?.,.On 16/12/61 the day after 15/12/61? I remembered it then. Between Friday and Monday y o u d forgotten itj and Wednesday?---Yes, I had already forgotten it. Framesby?---Yes, Now do you remember that you said that you went to That evening?---yes. And on Monday, last Monday, do you remember you Friday were asked some more questions about that? Yes. 30 As to what sort of houses there were in that vicinity? Do you remember that?---i do remember.

33 -33- J. SINGANA, 4 And your reply was "when I took them to Framesby, they went1'* tl'll give the whole context "the houses were europoan houses to which they walked, when I took them to Framesby they went to the place of the fire", and you added tfae»ub-»tation, Do you remember saying that on Monday1? *- X remeabtr. Now X want to read you the evidence you gav# on tfte friday "at Framesby" you said "they moved off to the left *lde"? Yes, they went down the left-hand side, Then the question was put to you what is situa- 10 ted there, your reply was I know nothing other than gum trees. This went on for a long time. The question was "were there any buildings there"? You said "yes"? Do you remember that? 'Yes, Then the question was»what kind of buildings", your answer was "european buildings". Do you remember that?---yes, Then you were asked"vore they houses or what sort of buildings were they"? You said there were europeans living there, do you remember that?- I remember, J Then the question was "were there any other kind of2c of buildings there"? Your reply was i don t know any other houses there, there was a plantation do. Do you remember that? Then the question was again put to you, this is now for the fourth time, "were there any other building"? "I didn't know of any, apart from those which the european* were living in". Do you remember that?---yes, But on Monday you came into Court and you volunteered that they went into the place of the fire, the sub- station. Who told you to say that? -Nobody. 0 Why didn t you say it on the Friday when you were question over and oever again about other buildings? I made i

34 -34' J, SINGANA* a mistake when I omitted that, there was some struoture there along the road* Who reminded you, who told you you had made a mistake? You say you made a mistake? -Yes, 1 made a mistake* I have remembered now that y o u ve pointed it out. You remembered it on the Monday, i m asking you. 11imr". i iiit mtrtif rfrrf -i-jiit*** rff-itfjrf, * j who told you that you'd made a mistake between the Friday and / the Monday?---Nobody told me. Now I want to take you to the end of 1961t and i want you please to be careful, because you remember that 10 you've already told His Lordship that you have never been in a Court before, nor have you ever given evidenoe, and later you admitted that you had made a mistake, you've been in Court three times and given evidence. Now just remember that will you? Do you remember this man whom you called Strachan, or the man who you were told was Strachan, at the end of 1961?- Did you say Strachan? Strachan - do you know the name?---yes, I know the name. Who is he? -He's the man that oame to us. 20 Yes, that you've told us about? Yes. Now I want to ask you again the question - do you remember at the end of 1961 the beginning of 1962, he was charged together with three other men, one was Thlolimpi John Soye, Joseph Jack and Govan Mbeki? Do you remember that they were charged at Port Elizabeth where you come from? - 'I remember having been told. Look, two youths from the Transkei were called by the State to give evidence against the accused, those youths in Court, said that they had come from the Transkei, and 30 that they had come to Port Elizabeth where they received lectures on explosives. Strachan and the three others, were

35 a l&d -35- J. SINGANA, Were charged with causing an explosion on the 16th of December, this is inter-alia My Lord, both at the sub-station and at the labour offices. You know that you read about thatj---i didn't read about it. * You heard about it?--- I heard from people* Yes, causing an explosion at the same places and an the same day which! originally mentioned...the same day which you originally mentioned, as the occasion when you went out with these six other people! Amongst other things, one of these youths said, that he had come from the Trans- 10 kei, and that he went some days before the 16th of December, that s before the explosions to Jack s house, the man you ve mentioned, and from there he went to a garage, and he said he was driven there by a taxi man I presume, who was wearing glasses. You do wear glasses, don't you?---i do. Now this youth was giving evidence for the State - did you drive these two youths some days before the explosion to Jack's house and from there to a garage?---yes. You did. Now we can identify them - the one youth was called Siza Dukata and the other youth was called Win 20 Sisa Dukata and the other was called Win Mbanthla?--- I don't recognise the names* But these were two youths from the Transkei, and are those the same youths that accompanied you on the night that you went to the place of the fire and to the labour? I don't know whether it was them that accompanied me to the labour. Well, to the place of the fire and the labour. You say you don't Ipiow if it was them?! don't remember going to the labour with them. 30 The labour offices, the place of the fire! The night that you were telling this Court aboutl*---1 recollect those that I took to the Labour offices.

36 -36- J. SINGANA. BY THE COURT TO WITNESS; Yes, but were they the same two?--- On the night of the explosions?---no. j CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BERRANGE (CONTINUED): A moment ago you said you don't remember if they were the same!--- I can't remember that it was them. / Didn't you see them? -I saw them. And you saw these youths whom you drove, and I want to put it to you it was on more than one occasion to Jack's house and to the garage, you saw those two, didn't you? - 10 I saw them when we went to Jack's. Yes, and you drove them on more than one occasion didn't you? Anyway let's get on!..?--- ^ drove them then. Yes, more than once? 1 can't remember these Trans kei people. I did hear they were from the Transkei, No, that these people who you drove, these youths from the Transkei, whom you say you drove, I put it to you, to Jack's house and then to the garage, did you drive these two youths more than once to Jack's house and to the garage? - Twice to Jack's house. 20 Yes, and then to the garage?----i took them twice to Jack's, I don't know anything about the garage. You did a little while ago when I put the question to you! You said you were the man that drove them to i the garage?--- I don't know what we had to go to the garage for. These people quite obviously described you. You say you were the man, the driver with the glasses, and they must have described you to the Police! Didn't the Police come and question you about your driving these people to Jack's 30 house and the garage? At the end of 1961 beginning of 1962? You'd better think hard, you know!--- The Police didn't ask me

37 -37- d* SINGANA. whether there were any persons whom I t o o k t o Jack*s* I *Well, what did they aak you? This is in 61/62, what did they ask you? or took an active part in the A.N.C. They asked me whether I had an interest, j And the bombing, because that's what they were investigating in this case!---d i d n t hear about that, but they did ask me about meetings. About meetings?---yes* This is in 61/62, when Strachan was being charged,. 1 0 and the youths had identified, or had mentioned a person like you? -They only came to me once and asked me what part i had with the A.N.C. In connection with the case of Strachan?! do not know whether it was in connection with that case. It was at that time, as I ve already put it to you four times, the end of *61, beginning of *62? Correct?--- Yes that is correot* with the A.N.C, So they asked you whether you had any connection Where was it that they came and asked you this?--- I was at home, 20. i How many times did they question you? nee only, prior to the present. What did you tell them?--- I told them that I was a member of the organisation of the A.N.C,, and they asked me whether I knew anything else. What did you tell them?--- I didn't say anything, because they didn't say what it was they wanted. They asked you if you knew anything else, what did you say about that?---- I said I didn't know anything else, I wanted them to say what else they knew. 30 Now at that t^me, you knew that Strachan was charged with having caused this explosion, Strachan and Mbeki

38 -38- J, SlNGANA* SLbV and a few others having caused this explosion at the labour and the bureau, you ve told us that you*d heard? -I heard that that was being conducted, **M-RatSi,-WSk'l)id you tell the C,I,D. or the Police, the time they questioned you then that you had actually taken some m«out to blow up these two places that Strachan was charged. with at the labour and the place of the fxre? Did you tell them? I didn't tell them that then.... No, you went two years laterj--- I wasn't waiting for that, but they would tell me what they were arresting 10 me for. You didn't tell them until two years...oh, did they arrest you in 1961/1962, when they question you?--- No, I was not. So when they arrested you two years later, then you told them? You've already told His lordship what you were arrested fori Nobody told you what you were arrested forj--- How did you come to give this statement then, was arrested and told that it depended on myself whether I 20 / made a statement or not,. Yes, but you said you didn't know what you were arrested fori Did they tell you what they wanted you to say, what they wanted you to talk about?--- After they arrested me, they said it depended upon myself whether I wanted to make a ( statement or not, and they said that I bombs. carted bombs.» ' - And they said that you had carted bombs?--- Conveyed To the labour and to the p l a ce of the fire?- No, they didn't say that, that's what I said, 30 So they said you had carted bombs - what did you say to that?--- 1 then said I'd make a statement.

39 -39- J, S-LNGANA^ Wh.y?- They arrested me and they told me about these bombs, and *- then realised this thing was right before me, and 1 decided to make a statement. What did they tell you about these bombs?- All they said was that I conveyed bombs. Yes, so why did you make a statement?- -Because it was heard then they told me about the bombs, then this was ri^ht before me. Then what?--- Then it was right before me. But two years earlier, 1961, when they asked 10 you what else you knew, you said you said nothing because you weren't told anything]- Well, I wanted them to_ta j k f i r s t. You wanted them to talk first? -Yes, Why?- X didn't know then what I had done or what they suspected me of, and I then waited for them to tell me. You say you didn't know what you had done, I don't think you really mean that! Or do you mean it?--- I waited for them to talk first, and because they did tell me about the bombs now. They did tell you about the bombs? How do you 20 know which bombs they were referring to?- 1 didn't, but I thought it must have been these that 1 had loaded. You see you told His Lordship, that you know that to go and bomb buildings is a serious offence. You also said that if you knew people were going to bomb buildings, you wouldn't be prepared or ready to help themj saying that?--- I do remember. Do you remember When you were in the car that night, did you know that they were going to bomb buildings?--- I did not know. At no stage? I knew or got to know when we loa- 30 * ded the bombs. So when you loaded the bombs, you knew that they were

40 -40- J. SINGANA. 2 U \ GOING TO bomb buildings?--- I didn't know what was going to be 1 _ up \bombed. bombed. What's that?---i didn't know what was going to be But you knew something was going to be bombed?- M r Yes, I did. So when they loaded the car and you knew something was going to be bombed, why did you go along? Why did you drive them? Why did you help them?---! realised after we were in motion that we would be bombing, 10 Oh no, no, no, pleasej You've just said that when they loaded the car, you knew that they were going to bomb places, you didn't know whioh places, but they were going to bomb buildings when they loaded the carj Did you say that?--- Yes, Was that true?--- N o, when they were loading I saw. ~ ^ these things, but I didn't know bombs, but whilst we were travelling, and listening to the conversation, I then got to k n o w that there would be bombing, * ~ 20 Why did you say a moment ago that you realised that they were going to bomb buildings when they loaded the car? I didn't know that they would be bombing, I didn't know bombs, But you said you did know,'--- 1 got to know as we were travelling along. But you said you got to know when they loaded the carl B-dn't you? I don't whether I said it in that respect in that vey. The interpreter is not making a mistake this timel Do you mean the previous interpreter? 30 No, this one? Is he? Do you suggest he's making a mistake?- No, the interpreter is not making a mistake, /" "'S..

41 -41- J. SINGANA, You see, because I want to suggest to you^that your story of,..i d o n t know what you did do that night,! but I want to suggest to you that your story that No. 7 accompanied you is a tissue of lies! And I want to suggest to you also that the further story that two youths from the Transkei accompanied you is a tissue of liesj You see, these two youths from the Transkei who gave evidence in Strachan's case, said that they left Port Elizabeth a number of days before the 16th of December, for the purpose of going and bombing some places at Ngobo in the 10 Transkei, that they were never in Port Elizabeth thenl What do you say about that?--- I don't know, they told me they were from the Transkei. But you gaw these youths,'--- 1 saw them but 1 didn't observe them as such. I see, you didn't observe them as such, but of course, you observed No, 1 Accused, and I want to put it further to you that No. 4 Accused, Govan Mbeki, will also say that you are fabricating you?evidence about himj You see, he was in hiding from the Police, between the 25th of March until he was arrested in the 3rd of April 1961.' Do you \ still say that you saw him going., during that period? I \ still say so, in spite of the fact that I don't know the dates, I And then lastly, before I finish this parti cular topic, once you were in the car and you heard that they were going to bomb buildings, why did you go ahead?--- There's nothing I could do, 1 was afraid. Who were you afraid of? These people were friends of yoursj 1 understand! These people were friends of yours, weren't they? Haven't you said that?--- I sa-i so. 30 Yes, so why were you afraid?- Well they could have done anything to me if they knew I was going to tell.

42 -42- J, SlNGANA.* if you were going to?---tell. I never suggested that you should tellj you why did you go ahead and drive them to these places! These friends of yours?--- I m asking I m waiting a long time for your answer!- 'Because they had employed me. Is that your only reason? -Yes, So* "because they had employed you, you were then prepared to do something that you thought was wrong, which you say was a serious offence, something that you d i d n t ap- 10 prove of, and something that you told His Lordship you would never have assisted them with, had you know what they going to do? -Yes, I was afraid. were Now which was it - were you afraid, or was it be-, cause they employed you? You've given us two reasons Were you afraid of your friends!?---i was afraid of them, yes. Why? -I didn't know what they would have done if I had refused to take them. Did you protest at all?---no, I did not. now! Didn't you say to them "look my friends, this is a 20 wrong thing to do, rather let us go home"?---no, that is what I was afraid of. Why? You could have tried to persuade them nicely, couldn't you?- I s n t that the right sort of thing to do?--- I didn't think of it in that light, I did think I was afraid. Bur surely y o u re not afraid of you friends? Are you? -I was afraid to talk then. Just to say to them "look my friends, don t let us do this thing, i t s a wrong thing". Were you afraid to say that?--- I was afraid to say so, 30 fare! Coupled of course, with the fact you wanted your Right?- Yes, I wanted my fare.

43 -43- J. SINGANA. A M So when this thing had happened, was finished, you knew that they had done this wrong thingj And you knew that they'd drag you into it, if your evidence is truej Why didn't you tell the Police about itj? They were questioning you only a short time thereafter, as you already told us, why did you not tell them about it? This wrong thing, that you'd been dragged into? The Police didn't mention bombs to me. No* no, no, but you had been pulled into this thing against your will! Xg that correct? -Yes, that is correct, but I can't go and tell the Police something about which 10 they don't ask me. Why not? -1- don't know how i'd tell them. But they were questioning youj If you knew anything about the activities of the A.N.C.? There was a wonderful opportunity to tell them! You had been dragged into this thingj Isn't that so? don't know, 1 waited tell me, then I would have told them. Allright, I want to put it to you that on the 26th of October 1961, Raymond Mthlaba No. 7 Accused, engaged you to drive him to IP-tenhage to pay his school fees. Do you re-20 member that?---yes. And at lunch time you returned to him and you then took him to the station, after he had paid his school fees. Do you remember that?.., Is that correct?--- Did I take him to the station the same day that he went to go and pay his school fees? That is right,' Correct?---Yes, that could be so. I'd already forgotten the Uitenhage incident. Yes, but that could be so? This happened on the 26th October 1961f that could also be so? It could be so,30 Yes, and he will say that between the 26th of October 1961 until the early part of 1963» he never saw you,

44 -44- J. SlNGANA* <U. nor did you ever see him! What do you say about that? X will say that X did see him. Allright. Well then tell His Lordship* kqw lojig was It after you had driven No. 7 Accused to the station on the ocoasion on which he went to Uitenhage, was it that you saw him again?---do you mean when I too1 him to the station? Yes, that*s my question! How long after y o u d taken him to the station, was it that you saw him again?--- I don t remember seeing him after having taken him to the Jk station. T.0 That's the point.x jn making!/ftcw I want to turn to another aspect - do you remember t h ^ T you told His Lordship that you went to Court Chambers to go and fetch some goods? ---Yes. _ t. Who did you go with? With Silas. I Anybody else? It was the two of us. I j Just the two of you?- Just the two of us. \\ j j. What happened at Court Chambers?- We went to go and fetch some articles. j What WL'.e it?---three cartons. I 20 Who was carrying them?--- Silas. 1 Silas was carrying the three oartons?--- And Govan Mbeki. Right. How many cartons did Govan carry?- Two j small ones. Govan was carrying two small cartons, and Silas?- He carried the one. It may imp^esc you to know that when you gave your evidence, you gave it the other way around! You told His Lordship that Silas was carrying to cartons, and that No was carrying the one! Do you remember that? I'm questioning you about this, because I don't know the significance

45 -45- J* SINGANA, of this evidencej Govan Mbeki will deny iti Now who was oarrying the two cartons! The two were carried by Govan Mbeki* Where did you go?---we went to New Brighton* What did you do there?--- I put Govan Mbeki off at his house* Yes, and then?---i then went off with Silas, as well as these three cartons. yes?---we got to Silas house, we left two cartons/ there* 3.0 Yes, what did Silas do?---he took the two cartons out the car, took them to the house and returned to the car* Bo you know what was inside them? I did not know what they contained. And then I m coming to the portion where you were now at Ring Street, You say these men came back with these articles and loaded them into the boot, which you opened? Yes, Do you follow me?---1 am. And they then drove off?--- Yes, 20 I want you to tell His Lordship what was said in the car after they drove off from Ring Street, who it was that said it, and who was speaking?--- Joseph Jack spoke. Yes, what did he say?---he said we must look after the things that were in the car, Jospeh Jack said?---yes, Any more talk after you had left Ring Street and you were driving on, when Jospeh Jack said that you must look after the things that were in the car. Anything else?--- Yes, we must look out these things are dangerous, 30 Jospeh Jack said?---yes. Any more said?--- Raymond Mthlaba also said so.

46 -46- J, SINGANA, dangerous. Said what?- He said these things in the car are Why should both of them say this? Gan you remembei it, after three years?---i remember. can remember. Y o u ve got a good memory? Have you? You ve got a good memory. Yes, I Anything else said whilst you were driving from Ring Street? -I don*t remember anything else that had been said. Before you stopped at Framesby? Su- r v. 5 3 ^ No, I can't re-10 member anything else, except what I had just described. Shall I tell you what you told His Lordship when you gave evidence on Friday? You were asked "was there any talk about the goods in the boot"? You said "yes". You were asked "who spoke"? Then you said No, 7 Accused, you didn t mention Jospeh Jack at allj "said the goods in the car were dangerous, and we must be careful", "Who was he talking to - Jack sr anybody else?"--- Raymond Mthlaba spoke. Yes, you never mentioned Jack when you gave your evidence in chiefi So go on, who was he talking to? Was 20 Raymond talking to Jack or was he talking to anybody else? - He spoke to all in the car. Not to any individual,,,any particular individual?: - I didn't hear that he was referring specifically to a particular person. I ll tell you what you. said - "No. 7 said the - goods in the car were dangerous and we must be careful", "^his he said to Silas". -Hadn t you been remembering your story very well? Is that your trouble?---yes, I have forgotten. Then you went on further - you were asked "was 30 there any talk about this man Strachan"? and you said "they got the goods from strachan". Had you forgotten that? Yes, \

47 -47- J, SINGANA. X b % say they did/so. Had you forgotten that just now when I asked you the question as to what was said. Do you remember saying that that was all they said? Jack said the goods in the car were dangerous, and No.,7 said the same thing. You said that was all that was said.'---yes, I made a mistake, they did say that it was got from Strachan, Was there anything else they said now, other than a t t e s t '=«'.*4 *, v. what y o u ve told us?--- No, other than they did say we must be careful, these things are dangerous. 10' Yes, because you ve forgotten the one important thing, which gave you information as to what was there! The further question was "did they give the goods a name"? and your answer was "yes, they said they were bombs". you forgotten that?--- Yes, 1 had forgotten it. j Speak up so that we can all hear you! Had Then y«u stopped at this place Framesby - who got off? Did everybody get off? Yes, somebody got off. Who?--- Silas Mtongwane, and the two youh/g men from the Transkei, / 20 Was there anything said when they got ojff, to anybody?---yes, What was said, and who said it? Raymond Mthlaba spoke and said they must work well. spoke. well. Yes, anything more?--- Nothing else wa^ said. Then you went off to the labour depar/bment?--- Yes, Anybody speak in the car then? Yes / someone spoke. Who? Did Jack speak at all?---raymond Mthlaba What did he say?---he said Silas* men must work 30 That s after Silas and them had left!- After w e d

48 -48- J* SlNGANA* left them. Why d^d he aay Silas and them must work well# once they had gone? Anyway it doesn t matter? Anything else said? labour. Yes, it was said that we're going to bomb the r- *. >, -.rw W else, I put them off* Jack. Anything else said?--- No, I didn't hear anything Who was No, 7 speaking to?--- He spoke with Jospeh. Now shall I tell you what evidence you gave - YoulO say that No. 7 said these things?---yes, Are you sure Come onl Mthlaba or Jack, X can't remember whether it was Raymond (» But you were perfectly clear about it when you " * gave your evidence on last Friday! Have you forgotten since then?---yes, I must haye forgotten. Since Friday?---Yes. Minimal- " * Because you've remembered all these things since 1961# but now since Friday you've forgottenj When did you 20 see No, 4 accused again after...when do you say you saw No, 4 Accused again after you had bean on this evening venture of yours? X saw him in the Court Chambers, What time of the day was that? ^n the morning In an office or where?--- Yes, in an office. You saw him there, this man who was hiding from the Police? You don't know whether it was - allright. you alone there? Or were there others in the office? I Were can't remember any more who the people were that were there. than No. 4 accused? You c a n t remember who was % the office other 30 Yes. What happeibd there that morning?'---1 got there and

49 -49- J, SINGANAj 5-10 got my money* Yes, who from?---from Govan Mbeki# From Govan Mbeki?---yes. Row many m S'fe i&ft. iii You say you don't remember who there was? --I can't remember* You can't remember, not even how many people there were? I can't remember the number. What happened in the office?--- He said that the work went on very well* 10 Who did he say that to?---he said it to me. Why did he mention this to you?-- I don't know*,. You remembered this all these years? Is that so? --- You meanthis what has happened. What you say happened in 1961J You remembered this all these years?--- No, I didn't remember Well, why do you say that he said the work had been well done? If you don't remember it?--- 1 remember now, after you've mentioned where I've been, and 1 said I remembered what has been said there, 20 somebody whom I met, Did he say any more?--- No. it. And did you then leave with your money?- Yes, And nobody else said anything to you? In the office?--- No, in the distance. There was Where did you meet him? X asked you whether that was all that happened in the office!- That is all that hap- p ened in the office. But you say there was somebody whom you met? Yes, Who?---I met Silas, 30 ** Where? Xn the location. I jin the location. Alone?---And X met others,

50 -50- J. SiNGANl. $ n I Was he alone when you met him?4r He was alone, I see* Did you meet anybody else?--- I have already met Joseph Jack again. Where?---At Corston(?)«Anybody else?---and Raymond Mthlaba. Where did you meet him? I cannt remember where I m et him. Is it before you met Jack?---If I remember correctly, I met him after I met Jack. Now you met Silas - what did he say to you? He said that the work which he had left us, went on very well. What did Jack say to you? He too, said that the work went off well. What did No. 7 say to you - Raymond?----He too, said that the work went off well. So the position is this - on the one day you met No. 4 Accused, who said the work went on well... BY THE COURT TO MR. BERRANGE; He didn't say on the same day. Iim sorry. 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BERRANGE (CONTINUED): ---- No, no, no, it wasn't on the same day. So on different days you met each one of these people...? On different days. And they then said to you the same thing, about the work going well?- Yes. And you remembered that?--- I remember that. Tell me, didn't you at any stage, say to any of these people that you were very dissatisfied with having been pulled into this?- That you thought it was a bad thing 30 for them to have done? That you should never have been dragged into this episode? Didn't you ever say that to any of

51 j -51- J* SlNGANl# l them? -i did not* Why not?- I was afraid to mention that t# them. Your friends?--- That*a what I was afrct&i - my friends* MR. BERRANGEi No further questions. DR. YUTARt No re-examination. BY THE COURT TO WITNESS* Just two points - (Cour* for Mandela badge - Exhibit M.25. Dr. Yutar eacplaiaf tllit Tsje- 9&use of the bulkiness of the exhibits* they aye kept % custody. Dr. Yutar undertakes to see that the exhibits ye-lo main in Court), Bo you know this badge oalled the Mandela badge, at all. The badge with the face of Mandela on it, have you ever seen it?--- 1 have not seen it* NOW the only other point is, at a certain time, sabotage of blowing up buildings and so on, started all over the Republic, Do you remember hearing about that? Jehannesburg, in Durbgn, in Port Elizabeth, East London everywhere? 1 did not know that. AT THIS STAGE THE COURT ADJOURNS UNT^L 10 A.M. ON 30/1/64.