WILLIAM C. FRIDAY ASSOCIATIONS. Q: Okay, we're back on. I don't know why it did that. A: I don't know either. His brother, John, was a Superior

Transcription

1 L-\-L^ WILLIAM C. FRIDAY ASSOCIATIONS Interview with Mr. William Cochrane 19 April 1991 at his office in: Washington, DC INTERVIEWER: Bill Link TRANSCRIPTIONIST: Karen Brady-Hill DATE TRANSCRIBED: 15 August 1991 [Begin Side A] Q: Okay, we're back on. I don't know why it did that. A: I don't know either. His brother, John, was a Superior Court judge, up -- I think, elected up in Lincolnton. I mean, that area, state-wide you're elected. Right A: And his wife was Lyla Ponders, as I recall it, John's wife. Isn't that right? Q: I don t know. A: Anyhow Q: How do you spell her last name? A: P-O-N-D-E-R. I think she's also a graduate of the University. Or at least got a degree there of some

2 kind. She's on the list. But I remember, with great regret, the last time John got beat, by some Republican. As I recall it, in '80 -- in the election of '88 or '90, one of the other. John did get beat. Q: There's been only one Republican elected in the Twentieth Century Superior Court, at least. A: Maybe John got beat in a primary. Maybe that's what it was. Anyhow, I was shocked at it. Of course they didn't campaign much. Q: No. Judges don't campaign. They don't do that. A: Yeah. Q: When you first met Bill Friday, how did he impress you? What sort of impression? A: Always that I liked him from the word "go". And most everybody else has been the same way all through the years. Bill has a very, very strong personality that makes a good impression. And he's very considerate of the other fellow, at all times, and always was. And he, when he got out of law school, I think he became Fred Weaver's assistant. Fred, I think, was dean of students.

3 Q: That's right. A: Yeah, Fred Weaver was a classmate of mine. The Class of '37. And his wife, Fran, is still in Chapel Hill, of course, his widow. Fran Weaver. She's been in the sort of thing you'd be interested in, I think. Do you know her? Q: No, but I know what she's been doing. She's been interviewing a good number of people and I've used some of her interviews actually. A: Yeah. Have you? Well, she has had a lot to do with saving records and so forth for the University and knows a lot of history, reaches way back around there. And I was going to make sure that you got a chance to talk to her because she's been very close to Bill and Ida all these years. Q: Yeah, I probably should talk to her, too. A: I think you should. I really do. She's, not only is she a very, very intelligent and pleasant person. I think she's about to retire, or has retired, she and Shirley, my wife, Shirley Graves Cochrane, are close friends. She comes to see Shirley every time she's up here.

4 Q: I see. Did you know Bill Friday in the context of his work with the Dean of Students office in those days? A: Oh, I had dealings with him. It was personal but, I mean, I was around there, you see, after the War,, the whole -- I got to know him while he was in law school. And Terry had come back, Terry Sanford, had come back from and went back to work at the Institute of Government while he was in law school, getting his degree, in '46. He got it around '46, I guess. He finished before Bill did. And then went off to practice law. Now, those dates you -- I may not be right on every date. talking from memory. But you'll understand I'm just But it was anyhow during that period that Terry and Bill and I got to know -- Terry and I got to know Bill real well. I don't know in what context, how it came about, but except that I did mention when we were having lunch that one of their projects was to help Max, old Max Gardner, Jr. of Shelby, to get elected as president of the North Carolina Young Democratic Club. And Terry had done that, too, I think. He had had that role once as president. Q: Was that very competitive for public contestants?

5 Oh, yeah. A much sought after position. Max unfortunately died a relatively short time after that. Or he would have, without question, gone on in North Carolina politics. Bill and Ida lived in a little house over on the east side of Chapel Hill, out in the suburbs, way out of town actually, down in the flat land. And we had various meetings out there at their place during that period. But I don't remember dates and so forth. I do know that I saw a lot of Bill. I remember when I decided to come to Washington with Governor Scott, when he was elected -- beat Alton Lennon, who had been appointed by Bill Umstead to the U.S. Senate, on the death of Broughton, I believe. No, that was not it. No, it was on the death of Willis Smith, I guess. I'm not sure. In any event, we came up here -- we got elected, Scott did, and we took the oath here on the 29th of November, Terry Sanford had been the campaign manager. And I remember during that -- when I decided to come up here, one afternoon before I came, when I was deciding and we were -- Bill Friday and I were lying on the grass across the street from South Building, and he didn't know what he was going to keep doing, you know, at that time. And I didn't -- I was trying to decide to come up here. we were talking all over what we were going to do. And I don't remember the exact date of that but I think that was just before I came to Washington. Bill was made --

6 let's see, I guess Fred was gone by the time Gordon Gray left the -- Gordon was president for five years. And Bill, anyhow, maybe he had succeeded Fred, I'm not sure. Didn't he succeed Fred? Or was he still Fred's assistant? Q: He was Fred's assistant and then I think he was briefly, when Fred Weaver went to Harvard on a leave, Bill Friday then was acting. He had an acting capacity with the dean of students. If I have that right. A: Well, he was holding things together after Gordon left. Q: And then, yeah, then he went over and became assistant. A: There was some Sharpe in there for awhile. No, Sharpe was a chancellor. That's right. Paul Sharpe. Bill was acting president for a good while, wasn't he? Q: Acting president for almost a year. A: Yeah. And they -- Q: Served, of course, under Gordon Gray. A: Did such a good job that suddenly it began to take hold that he ought to be the president. I remember one or

7 two -- I had a lot of visits from North Carolina faculty people during that period. I was quietly lobbying for him. Along with a lot of other people. That's not much information for you. Let me go back a little bit here and -- in a way would you say that Bill Friday was a disciple of Frank Graham? What kind of effect do you think Frank Graham had on Bill Friday? A very, very strong effect on him. Yeah, I think he was very strong for Dr. Frank. Frank Graham was president when I got there in '33. Hadn't been in long. And I got to know him somewhere during that period. I remember Shirley was -- Shirley grew up in Chapel Hill and it nearly killed her when Frank got beat for --by Willis Smith, for U.S. Senate seat. But when he, let's see, now those dates are a little hard. Dr. Graham was appointed to the Senate by W. Kerr Scott. And the announcement of it was in March of 1949 in Lenoir Hall at a dinner attended by practically everybody. You know how big Lenoir Hall is? Right. And that' s where they had the Old Max Gardner Award Dinner. And the announcement was made by W. Kerr Scott

8 at that dinner which he attended, along with all the rest of us, you know. And he was recognized as the governor. And he got up and said only that he was going to tell them that he was appointing Frank Porter Graham to the United States Senate. And boy it shook that place. But that was March of '49. And it was -- I've forgotten who was getting the Old Max Gardner Award that night. But whoever it was was -- that got to be a lesser story real quick. And the suggestion for the, Scott didn't say it at the time, but it was Miss Mary's idea that Frank Porter Graham be appointed. Most everybody believes now. I would imagine Bill Friday was there that night. Q: He was. Yes. A: I would imagine that he was. I've forgotten what his role was at that time. Q: Were you there? A: Oh, yeah. Sure was. Q: Everybody, yeah. A: I think Shirley was, too, but I'm not actually sure. These things are all intertwining. Shirley's father

9 was Thorton Shirley Graves, who had been a teacher over at Trinity. A professor over at Trinity. And he was one of the world's great Shakespeare scholars. And one of his students was Shirley's mother, Mrs. Margaret White Graves, and by the time Shirley was born they'd been married several years, and he was over at Chapel Hill on the faculty. And they were building a home down on Franklin Street, right near between Dr. McKnight and John Umstead. There are three homes down there in a row. A beautiful section in there. And Dr. Graves got pneumonia. He was in his early forties and died one day after she was born. So, she grew up -- she wasn't kin to Louis Graves, the publisher of the newspaper there, they're real good friends. But she grew up down in that section, you see. And she lived there with her mother and her grandmother and her great-grandmother. And, of course, all of these -- that's down the street a little bit from the president's house on Franklin Street. I don't know whether you remember the three homes that are down there. But we were all tangled up with Dr. Frank, and we all thought the world of him. And, of course, Albert Coates had a deal with him all the time. Mr. Coates had a real keen appreciation of Frank Graham's skill at handling the budget, and handling the turf fights. I know Mr. Coates had an expression, he said, "They talk of the imperialism, there is no imperialism

10 like academic imperialism. Meaning turf in the University. The budget business." And Frank Graham was the referee. And he was --he could be tough. But I think Bill always was real close to Dr. Frank. That would be my impression. I'm trying to answer your question rambling all over the lot. Q: That's all right. Other people that were around that had an influence on Bill Friday in those days, someone like -- A: Well you and I have mentioned Louis Graves, I mean Louis Wilson. Louis Round Wilson, over a long period of years. Louis lived in a house on Rosemary Street. Do you know where the Horace Williams house is? Q: No. A: It's on Rosemary Street. And it's right behind where Shirley's families house was on Franklin Street. And Louis lived right across the street from the Horace William's house. They weren't very close friends. In fact, Louis wasn't happy with him because he kept an out-house over there for years, out there by the sewer. That's Horace Williams, the philosopher, I'm talking about. And all of those -- Horace Williams -- you don't know about Horace Williams?

11 Q: No. A: Well, you really ought to -- he was a philosophy department guy, and had a great influence on everybody around there for years. Horace Williams. He never got married, I think. One of his disciples was Frances Bradshaw, Dr. Frances Bradshaw, who was dean of students before Fred was. I'm -- tying these things up are hard to do because I mention something and if you're not familiar with it, it's -- but I do think you would want to freshen up a little bit on Horace Williams. Q: Yes. A: The Horace Williams House which Fred Weaver and I'm sure had a lot to do with -- it's a part of the University now. It's a very famous place for gatherings and so forth. And it's all down in that section close to where Frank Graham lived as president. Q: What about someone like Billy Carmichael? He, Bill Friday's told me that Billy Carmichael was very important in his own way. A: Billy comes back from having made a fortune up in New York. I guess he was back --he and his wife came back

12 down there and he started into development in a big way. He really was the one who started the development program at the University. And he had an enormous effectiveness around there over a long period of years. There are a lot of things that wouldn't be -- the University wouldn't have if it hadn't been for Billy Carmichael. And I'm sure Bill dealt with him a lot. He seems to have been particularly effective in dealing with legislature. Yes, he was. Yes, he actually was. And Bill, nobody ever was more effective in dealing with the legislature through the years than Bill. In the first place there were a hell of a lot of graduates of the University, and particularly the law school, who were in the legislature. We don't have nearly as much over there now as we did then. But Bill was able to reach each one of them in one way or another. He was able to keep the -- we had more alumni of the University in the legislature in those days than we do now. A hell of a lot more. I'm sure that medical school wouldn't be down at Greenville if it hadn't been for Leo Jenkins, with such an effective operator. And we had lost out a lot of strength in the legislature. And they put that thing through. Eastern North Carolina did. Bill tried his best to stop it.

13 Q: That's been my perception that the power of influence of Chapel Hill. The University of Virginia -- A: It waned. It has waned. Q: Why do you think that's so? What happened? A: Well, partly the -- there other -- we don't have as many lawyers. And, you see, we have a lot more Duke and Wake Forest people. And that Campbell College School of Law. And East Carolina, which we called it.j'ecee Teesee", East Carolina's Teachers College became a part of the University. And, anyhow, over a long period, and that's when we elected some Republicans, you know. The Jesse Helms' influence and so forth. And he never did --he denies having ever said that -- he denies this, but this is something that was quoted about him for a long time, that when they were trying to establish the zoo over in Randolph County, the state zoo, it was alleged that he said, "Well, why don't we just put a fence around Chapel Hill and that would be an adequate zoo." Something like that. He said he never said it. But maybe he didn't. I don't know. But he never did care for the University very much.

14 Q: The Institute of Government must have been an interesting place, which it still is. A: It was indeed. Q: Back in those days. A: Albert Coach founded it when he was teaching in the law school. And by the time I got there I was in the second wave, you might call it, the first wave of people on the staff included Henry Brandus, who was out of there by the time I got in on it. I expect I was among the first of the second wave. Henry Brandus and Marion Alexander and four or five old-timers, who -- and it was located in a building up in the middle of the campus. I've forgotten -- for a long time, by the time I got to know Mr. Coates, he had out of his own funds, with some help from June Price of Jefferson Standard, he had acquired a lot down on Franklin Street. Do you know that little building across the street from the Morehead Planetarium? Q: Right. A: That was the Institute of Government Building. But when I first got to know him that was just a hole in the ground. He owned the lot and had a five hundred

15 dollar hole dug there that collected water over a long period and it infuriated the neighbors. It brought in mosquitoes. And he -- I got to know him before that building was built. And by the time they had the dedication of it, in, I believe in 1939, I was in law school and just about ready to -- I hooked up with the Institute while I was law school. I gave up my dormitory store job. And told -- Mr. Coates kept after me for a long time because Oscar Kaufman, who was dean of the Journalism School, had told him that Mr. Coates was after somebody who could write who also had some legal. I was in law school and Mr. Coates asked me to come over to be one of the assistant directors, the only one at the time, and put out the magazine Popular Government, which still comes out. And I ducked and dodged because I was managing a dormitory, and that was pretty fancy income for somebody who had no money coming from home. And about six months later he said - - he got after me again and I said, "Well, you know, I'll come if you'll take my two former roommates, George Riddle, (he's dead now), and Terry Sanford." He said, "It's a deal." And we got fifty dollars a month for four hours a day, six days a week, plus we had to work a lot of extra time, too. And we were in that new building. But I was over there when they dedicated that building. I think John Edgar Hoover came down and a whole bunch of other big-shots from around the

16 country. That was one of the Transler [?] people and I haven't seen her in a long time. She's a real fine person. I got her her job fifteen-and-a-half years ago, as she mentioned there. Her father was in Reagan' s cabinet when he was governor out in California. Q: Back, back, way back. A: And then he was secretary of something in defense. One of the assistant Air Force Major. But he was nice guy. Even though he was Republican. Q: Can't hold that against him. A: Sorry about that. Q: That's fine. No, don't worry about it. A: Actually, we've had a very merciful treatment by this phone. It must be Friday afternoon. Q: Yeah. Only rang once. We were talking about Albert Coates. I wonder what kind of influence he had on Bill Friday?

17 I'd say considerable on everybody he ever had any dealings with. Mr. Coates was just one of the most extraordinary people I've ever known. And -- "But God boys, we're so bad off that any further falling is bound to be up hill." the way he sounded. He had a raspy voice and that's "My God boys, we've got to work morning, noon and night, weekday, and Sunday." Those are some of his expressions. Bill had a lot of respect and affection for Albert Coates. And everybody that knew him was -- the Institute of Government, he built it. If you were out of his classroom, he was a professor in the law school. He lived in a little rented house for years and devoted his salary to keeping it going. It was right after the -- right at the end of the war. And I think Billy Carmichael's probably the one that helped bring it in, made it part of the University. But Mr. and Mrs. Coates, she's eighty-eight, she's still going strong. By the way, she's somebody who, she's smart as she can be. She's a graduate of Randolph Macon. And she knows Bill and Ida Friday like -- better than almost anybody around. don't guess -- they're neighbors down there, too. I She lives right up the street from Bill Friday on Hooper Lane. And as I say she's eighty-eight years old. And she certainly is knowledgeable about them, all the way through. And she was in Chapel Hill through all those

18 years. And, of course, was very close to them. Has anybody mentioned her? Q: Yes. I haven't interviewed her yet, but she's sort of on the top of the list. Yeah. A: And as I say she's right up there around eighty-eight or something like that. But she still goes to everything there is to go to. I have constant dealings with her is her phone number in Chapel Hill. Q: Let me ask you about Gordon Gray, and what you perceived Gordon Gray's influence on Bill Friday as being. A: Well, I don't really know much about his influence on Bill. I just know that Gordon -- I picked up an LL.M. at Yale about ten years after I finished law school at Chapel Hill. After I got back from the Navy. And the main reason I went up there was they had given me a rather princely fellowship, one of those studying fellowships. I took a year's leave from the University and went up to New Haven and got that LL.M. And I'm always -- I like it because it's in Latin, right behind you there. In any rate, it's over there, don't worry about it. When I got there I found out that Gordon's name was still a legend at Yale. He had picked up his

19 law degree up there, at Yale Law School, with top honors and all that. And had been many years since he'd been there. But he was still a legend up there. And I've forgotten -- what years was he president of the University? Do you remember? Q: '50 to '55. A: Well, I got to know him in -- well, before that. He owned the Winston-Salem newspaper, the Sentinel and the Journal, I guess the Winston-Salem Journal and Sentinel, and Bill Hoyt, I think it was, was the publisher under Gordon. And, any rate, they offered me the editorship of the Sentinel while I was at the Institute of Government in about Kept it open for the better part of the year, with the idea that -- you see, I had this background in journalism and had worked as a kid, twelve to early years, on newspapers in Newton. But one in my family got my fingers in a printing press when I was twelve and Bill Hoyt was publisher and John Freids Blair of Winston-Salem, have you ever heard of him? John Freids was with us at the Institute of Government, and then he was over at the University Press for a long time. He was a lawyer. But he recommended me to Bill Hoyt and they -- and I went up there and interviewed 'em and they kept it open for a year. The idea was that I'd take the editorship

20 of the Sentinel, the afternoon paper, and then a year later when Mr. Sanford Martin retired, I would be editor of both of them, if I turned out to be any good. I went to Yale instead. After thinking it over for a long time. But that's how I first got to know Gordon. But, of course, it was an honor to be offered to go to the papers. But the principle of it was I didn't go was I didn't want to live in Winston-Salem. [telephone rings] Sorry about that. No, it's all right. No problem. We were talking about Gordon Gray. Gordon had, I don't know, it was kind of unusual when he was picked down there, you know. And he had all these interests elsewhere. He came up here to be -- he was Secretary of the Army under Eisenhower. I don't know about the sequence of things here. He was one of the founders of the National Preservation -- National Historical Preservation outfit. And he ran it for quite a while in his last years. He, but Bill had a lot of dealings with him. And I'm sure they were very friendly and everything, but I don't have any personal recollection of anything about him. I'm not doing you much good.

21 Q: I don't know about that. Tell me about -- how was it possible that -- one of the things that's always amazed me about the career of Bill Friday is that he achieved election to the University at the ripe age of thirtyfive or thirty-six. How did that happen? How was it possible that a young man like that could -- A: Well, it was one of those accidents really, in a lot of ways. He was at the right spot at the right moment. And he had all these qualities. He didn't get there because he had set out to be an academician. He just happened to be there. I think that's -- and everybody trusted him. And he had these winning ways. I don't think he went in there with any idea of ending up as president of the University. Or chancellor. Q: It wasn't something he sought? A: Beg your pardon? Q: He didn't seek it? A: I don't think so. I think he, during that period, we'd just gotten back from the war, and it was something that he was interested in. He'd finished law school. I think he was trying to decide what to do with his life, you know. I know he could have come over to the

22 Institute of Government if he'd wanted to. But he had worked his way through, possibly, wasn't he hooked up to Fred Weaver while he was in law school? Q: I think so. A: Yeah, well that's how he earned his good part of his way. We all had to do that. And he just was at the right spot and everybody suddenly it had dawned on them gradually, that this was -- "Why are we looking for somebody else when he's doing such a good job running the University?" And he had a way of being interested in the other fellows problems to an unusual degree, more than most people. A very considerate, compassionate person. And a very -- a person of very high standards, ethical, and otherwise. But Bill Friday, you've mentioned the tuition business, as a matter of principle I never have agreed with the idea that the state of North Carolina ought to subsidize the private universities and colleges in the state by so much a head. A rather large chunk of money. Well, that program never would have been inducted if it hadn't been for the effectiveness of Terry Sanford with the legislature. And he was president of Duke University at the time. His job was to look after Duke. And with folks over at Chapel Hill, Chancellor Fordham, he was -- he had some things to say about

23 that. And Bill didn't agree with it. And they weren't very friendly during a lot of that period. I've tried to do a little peace-making, as I told you, and I consider that off the record. I don't want to be quoted as saying that. But, one example, I think I can give you. I happened to be in Chapel Hill one weekend. And it was Tom Lambeth's, do you know Tom Lambeth? Q: Yes. A: His fiftieth birthday. And Terry and Margaret and Rose were giving a birthday party over the president's house at Duke, or one of those places, wherever they gave it. And I was invited. Shirley wasn't along so she couldn't go. I happened to be down there. Also, as matter of maybe routine, Bill Friday and Ida and Barbara and Chris Fordham were invited. Well, I put the bee on both of them. I said, "I want you all to go to that party. I want a little --go back a little bit to the old days when we all had friendly relations." I'd been close to Chris for a long time, too. Well, I went down and picked up Barbara and Chris and took 'em, in my rented car. And Bill and Ida went. And that's about the first time they'd done anything like that in a long time. We were over there that night. Oh, that was eight or ten years ago. I don't know. Terry was still president of Duke.

24 Q: There seems to be a kind of natural -- A: And I made it clear to Terry that I thought he was dead-wrong on that. Just like I think that recent business about tuition increase -- Q: Right. A: I thought Terry was wrong. He went along with Martin. But what he was really doing was going along with Paul Harden. Because that's one of the first things Paul suggested, from his background as president or chancellor of private schools. Non-public universities. He got off on that kick early on. And I had gotten to know him the first day he was in there to be interviewed, on the day Spangler accepted him, among the three. And I was prepared to be opposed to it. I was on the board of the alumni. We were having a weekend down there. And Bob Eubanks made sure that I had a little private conference with Paul Harden. And I liked him right off. He had been fourteen years a law professor over at Duke. And he was a graduate of Duke, in the law school over there. And his father -- but that wasn't why -- I liked him instantly. I was prepared to be unhappy about his being selected as chancellor, over the University -- people within the

25 University and others who had competed for it, you know. I found out he was the son of a Methodist preacher in North Carolina. And his wife, Barbara, she's also a Barbara, was the daughter of a Methodist mission. And they were both born in Charlotte, I believe. And being the son and daughter of Methodist preachers, every four years they had a different hometown in North Carolina, and you can't be raised that way without getting to know the state real well. And Everett Jordan's daddy, Senator Jordan, his daddy was a lawyer in eastern North Carolina, who around the middle of the last century became a Methodist preacher, with hometown's all over the state, and I had that knowledge, you know, and a lot of other members of the family likewise became Methodist preachers, and I had such a family in my family, the Tuttles in North Carolina. Tuttle, Tuttle is a Methodist preacher name. Hernon Tuttle, my grandfather's cousin, in eastern North Carolina, was a lawyer, about the middle of the last century, and he turned into a Methodist preacher, with hometown's all over everywhere. A whole bunch of Tuttle's. And I thought that was pretty damned good preparation for being chancellor at Chapel Hill. So, and the first thing old Paul, we got to know each other pretty well, and he suggested we needed more money. We should get the legislature to increase the tuition and let the money come directly to the branch of the

26 University. And I said, "They ain't going to do that. They might go along with you and increase the tuition." I said, "But, we've got a tradition over at Chapel Hill that reaches back toward the beginning." It's in the Constitution now. "There shall be one or more universities of higher learning. That tuition at which shall be as nearly free as practicable." Now, back when the University was founded and the -- you know who founded it. The old governor, general. I'll tell you in a minute. Q: William Richardson Davey. A: That's right. Davey. He was pushing it from way back, at the beginning. Anyhow, they finally got it chartered. The tradition, at that time, the only folks that got to go to college were son's of the rich. And I said son's not daughter's. Son's of the rich and son's of the clergy; preachers' son's. The rest of them didn't get to go. And no daughter's. And so -- and we've got this long, well known tradition of a low tuition. One of the lowest of the top-type universities in the country. And I said, "It is real important when I went to the University the tuition was twenty-five dollars a quarter." I couldn't afford to go to Duke. I had a scholarship over there given to me. And even with that I couldn't afford to go to Duke in And I said, "It's vitally important."

27 Anyhow, that's been an issue between Bill Friday and Bill doesn't believe in that tuition business. I know about all that. And I suppose you -- there's not much you -- I don't know how you deal with that. I don't want to get involved in that publicly, but I'm giving it to you for background. Bill's dead right on every damned issue he's had any dealings with, where he has differed with the folks over at Duke. I don't -- Sam Poole, you know Sam? Q: Uh-huh. A: He chairs AA, you know. He's got the Universities point of view on that sort of thing. Anyway -- Q: Are we back on the record? A: Yeah. Q: There has been a -- well, let me ask you this. Just generally speaking, I gather, from Bill Friday, he's told me how important he considers his friendship with you, and his relationship with you, he considers it to be a personal friendship, but also a working relationship over the years. How would you characterize that working relationship? things -- What sorts of

28 A: Total candor. Total trust. I talk with him more than any other person I know down there. I call him fairly often. He calls me more often. He has this habit of calling at the crack of dawn. I happen to be a night owl, two and three and four o'clock. But I'm always glad to hear from Bill. And his right hand gal out there is Zona. Q: Zona. A: Zona Norwood. I just happened to be -- and there's nothing about him that I don't like and admire. Nothing. I have never been able to worry. I have never had to worry about whether I should trust him. We have been totally frank with each other including some of our -- we almost always don't like the same things. We both, I think, like people, better than some of the things they do. And it's just both a personal thing, because he's always involved in good causes, including literacy and he's a good Democrat. Q: If he has something he needs to know up here. A: He calls me quite frequently. For example, this is just a minor little thing, in a way. But he asked me a month or two ago to keep an eye on the Washington Post for anything that elude him to the Knight Commission.

29 And I don't read the sport pages unless there's some human interest story, like Pete Rose, that I get interested in, or something like that. So, I sent him a whole bunch of stuff every day, during a period when it was -- and I told him the other day, I said, "Look here, I'm going to have to quit reading the damned sports pages. That's not my usual beef." And he laughed. And that was so he wouldn't miss anything. The Post, he doesn't get a chance to see the Post down there. I assume, I didn't try to track the New York Times, and so forth. The Washington Post and Washington Times I did because I know he doesn't see them down there. And he's probably thrifty on it. The Washington Post cost a fortune when you buy it out of town. A couple of bucks or something like that. Three on Sunday. Yeah. Did he -- he had contact with a number of president's over the years; Bill Friday has. Beginning, I guess, with especially with Kennedy; Johnson; Carter. Those three in particularly, do you think? Well, I had questions from him about things -- I don't remember any particular area. I used to know a lot more people down at the White House than I do now. After ten years of Dr. Feelgood and Tacky Bush. I

30 don't have any strong ties with any of them now. I know a few people from here who have gone down there. And there have been times when I had to get in touch with somebody and get a copy of something, or ask them about something, or occasionally make him an appointment. Or more likely just give him some information. But I've always made it a -- put a high order on any requests that he ever made to me. And there have been so many of them over the years that I don't have any examples to give you. Q: He attended the 1961 Inaugural. Is that right? Do you have any recollection of that? A: The '61 Inaugural, I didn't do that one, that was Jack Kennedy's. Q: Yeah. I was going to ask you. You weren't here? A: My guy was -- Everett Jordan was chairman of the Rules Committee. Inaugural. No, I think Sparkman was in charge of that And Frank Gradden of Kentucky, who was on the Rules Committee staff, was the executive director, or whatever they called it then. Bill Whitley had something to do with it. '61? That was Kennedy's. Yeah.

31 Q: Yes, that's right. A: And I was out at that Convention, by the way, in L.A. Bill Whitley was a newspaperman who had been on Scott's staff and stayed on with Jordan. And we were out there -- we were out there actually because LBJ asked us to go. We weren't going. I had canceled -- I had made a -- Terry was governor, of course -- no, anyhow, there was a plane going out there and I had arranged for several people to be on that plane, including Terry. And nine -- Westinghouse, it was not illegal to do that then. Westinghouse had a plane that ran back and forth. And the guy that was -- Westinghouse' s guy lined up several rides on there. One was for Terry and one was for Bill Whitley and me. And anyhow we canceled out. And then we got a call from LBJ and he wanted us to come out there anyway. And I said, "Well, my mission, I canceled." Because that was when Terry decided to support Jack Kennedy. [side one ends] [side two begins] A: Oh, yeah. Q: Yeah.

32 A: Well, we were mainly -- actually my guy was Adlai Stevenson. Third time. But he ended up thrashing it out, you know. And Johnson was the only one we thought had a chance to stop Jack Kennedy. And when Terry came out for Kennedy I balled him out and didn't go. But then I went anyway and we turned around and came back as soon as Kennedy was nominated. And so forth, but then we got back and found out Lyndon had taken the vice presidential role. Q: He did that after he got defeated? A: We were on our way back. We were sitting out there in a fancy hotel with -- didn't even have to pay our expenses, but we weren't interested in that. But that's just the kind of ties we had with -- and with Kennedy, too, his crowd. I know a lot of then and I know them now. Teddy is right across the hall down here. We've been friends for a long time. But I had an occasion every now and then to get something for Bill, or hook him to somebody. And could do it with no problem then. Even when Eisenhower was president. And particularly when Nixon was president. Q: Oh, really?

33 A: Yeah. Nixon was in my Navy unit and he went to Duke, you know, Law School. And I knew him when he was vice president and would talk to him every now and then. Q: Yeah. A: But he was a member of our charter Navy unit and was the first one on the Hill reserve officer unit. Navy Marine Company Number 548. And then of course I walked him through the Capitol in his second Inaugural because the Republicans weren't speaking to each other. But I had ties down at the White House, up until Reagan, and that was just too much. Although I've been involved in every Inaugural including this one. The last two I took care of the court and had to bring out the Chief Justice. Q: Did you have anything to do with -- I know that Adlai Stevenson made a famous visit to Chapel Hill in the '50s. A: He spoke down there more than once, didn't he? Now, Buffy had a lot of ties down there in Moore County somewhere; Buffy --I knew senator -- the senator, I never knew the senator's daddy. But Senator Adlai Stevenson was here for a number of years. And he was one of three cousins I had. Adlai and Dick Russell, and

34 Sam Ervin, in one way or another were distant cousins of mine. Q: At various points in his career -- [interrupted] A: I never had any dealings with Adlai Stevenson, the governor. I mean, you know, the back -- huh? Q: No direct dealings? You just -- A: It was the senator that I knew. And, of course, he was much younger. But his daddy was the one running that was running for president. Q: Right. A: During those times. Q: You were just a Stevenson's supporter. A: Uh-huh. Q: At various points in his career Bill Friday was confronted with, I suppose mostly in the last ten to fifteen years, he was confronted with the possibility of running for public office. What did you think of

35 that? And what do you think now of the possibility of Bill Friday in politics? A: Well, Bill is seventy now, I think, isn't he? Q: Yeah. He's too old I suppose. A: Well, Reagan was sixty-eight when he ran for president. Q: Yeah. A: Or thereabouts. And there's a lot more of that now than there used to be. People live longer. Q: Yeah. A: And Bill Friday would make a respectable run for anything state-wide in North Carolina, even now, if he wanted to. I don't know -- my guess is that he wouldn't do it now. But my guess, and I have to say it that way, is that in 1986, the ' 86 campaign, he would have been in it if he had been freed sooner. It was a year sooner, really, it could have been. If they had selected his successor. But he had a public statement and a private statement to me. And they were the same: That he wouldn't going to make any political statement as long as he was president of the University. That's

36 what he said. Now, Ida made it clear to me that she wanted him to run for the senate. And we've talked on it. And Ida was always after Bill to do it. Terry would certainly not have run if Bill had gotten in it, you know. And wasn't even thinking about it, I don't think. He was persuaded to let him put his name up for chairman of the Democratic Party in early '86 or '85, maybe it was. But he didn't get it. Thank goodness. Which made him available to run in '86. But he didn't get into it until really late in the game. And I'm satisfied he would not have run if Bill had already announced. But Bill wouldn't announce -- wouldn't even state, and literally wouldn't even tell me that -- all that he would say to me was that, "Bill, I'm not going make any public statement, political statement, as long as I'm the president of the University. Because that wouldn't be good for the University." But I'm personally convinced that if they'd come across with his successors name, practically a year sooner, which they could have, if they could agreed on a successor, that he would have announced for the senate. And I believe he would have been elected. Terry, when he did announce in the Democratic Primary, with six running, got sixty percent of the vote. That's a hell of lot better than he did against George Wallace back yonder when he was running for president in North Carolina,

37 you know. George Wallace beat him. That was during a rough period. Q: Right. You were one that urged Bill Friday to run? A: Oh, yeah. I wanted to run real bad. I thought he would just be what we needed. I believe he would have won. You see, John East subsequently committed suicide. But I don't believe he was going to run again anyway. Q: That was clear at that point, I suppose. A: I was pretty sure in my own mind he wasn't going to be able to run. Q: Do you see North Carolina over the years as have -- well, diverse relationship with the Federal government, but the HEW case, I suppose, is the best example of central conflicts, strong conflict between the University and Federal involvement, and government involvement. Did you have any direct dealings or -- A: Which one do you mean HEW? Q: The Adam's Case. The case -- the desegregation case, I guess is the best way to describe it, that went for eleven years or so.

38 A: Well, who was Adam's? Q: That was the title of the case that was brought against HEW. A: Of course, I remember that long period there when we were trying to meet the task of percentage, minority percentage, and that sort of thing. And Bill was involved in all of that. But, yeah, we were -- kept keeping up with up during all that period. I don't remember anything particular about it. Q: Not any specific thing. A: I don't remember Adam's though. Q: Well, that was the title of the case. Adam's was just sort of one individual that was at the top of the list of people who were suing. began with "A". And I guess since his name A: I see. Q: The title of case. It was brought by the NAACP against the Federal government for not enforcing the Civil Rights Act.

39 A: Yeah, I remember all that monkey business we went through all that time. But, we -- Everett Jordan had cast a lot of votes that were out from the southern main stream. And he had a pretty liberal record considering that -- and Kerr Scott did, too. Jordan voted to let home rule come to the district. And he voted for the election, you know, quite a few votes during that period. Federal aid to education. Every single one that ever came up we voted for. And Sam Ervin voted, almost every one. North Carolina was kind of exceptional in that respect. Most of the southerners were voting against Federal aid to education in all kinds of ways. [phone rings] Sorry about that. Another job secret. Q: Yeah. You must have a lot of those, I guess. Tell me just generally what you think about Bill Friday's leadership skills. And in particular what Bill Friday has meant for the state of North Carolina? A: That's the biggest order you've given me. [laugh] Q: Yeah. It's a big one. A: Well, I think his leadership skills are at the very top of any -- it's just his way -- well, in the first place, take the University. He grew up with a growing

40 university. I would hate to have been -- had to succeed him in that role. Because he knew every aspect of it. He could fine tune every thing about it. Because he knew it. Each thing he was along when it happened, all along the way. And he had this way of inspiring confidence. And that's one of the number one requirements for successful leadership. And everybody he dealt with. And furthermore he was totally trustable. Everybody felt that way with no question. He always understood what the other fellow's problem was, you know, and could organize his point and his approach with that in mind. And he was a straightshooter and everybody felt that way about him. Even people who disagreed with him, or were opposing him on something, because of other reasons, or other interests. I couldn't talk about him in any other way except in terms of superlatives. And I don't normally use total categories superlatives for anybody. But that's Bill Friday. But, of course, a lot of people are going to be telling you that and they probably already have. Q: Right. Yeah. Most everybody does. A: Yeah.

41 Q: And everything you've described is what other people have said is genuine, I mean, that he's, for example, his interests in people. A: He really always knew -- had a way of compassion and understanding the other fellows problem. I had a little line of words that I put together one time, just what you needed when you're involved with the public, or in a place like this, or the university, or wherever, you know. That what you had to have was -- you had to be immuned [?] just a good degree with common sense, common courtesy, and common decency, and compassion. Maybe we'll have another one or two that I threw in there. Bill exemplifies all of those qualities to a very high degree. Everything about him has always resounded that way. Of course he and I dealt with a few people along the way that we didn't quite trust and we always expressed ourselves freely to each other. But even so, with some understanding of what the other fellows reasons were for different interests. [tape ends]