KT: I m not sure that my journey was one that I consciously initiated. But it was facilitated by the St. Martins in Charlotte.

Transcription

1 Moderator: Tonight s conversation will be a little different than in previous weeks. Diana is not able to participate due to scheduling issues. But we won t miss a beat! As our guest tonight, we welcome the Rt. Rev. Michael Curry, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of North Carolina. Michael Curry: Just to get us rolling... Diana points out the prevalence of journeys in the Bible...that the journeys of restless spiritual seekers lead them towards God. How have the journeys of your life brought you into God or into Christ? How have your journeys shaped your identity? Moderator: It seems that for so many folks I encounter, seeker is part of their self-understanding. Some people seem to have it all figured out, but most seem to be looking. DC: The Episcopal Church has been a part of my life always...it allows me to question, to grow and to see other views. I am still journeying. I hope I never stop KT: I m not sure that my journey was one that I consciously initiated. But it was facilitated by the St. Martins in Charlotte. MH: I m thinking about moving during middle school...which like totally destroyed my young life... but ultimately made me seek God... I had no other friends! DB: From childhood through entering college - it was the summer the Episcopal camp which formed me as a child of God and as an active Episcopalian AF: My physical journeys (I have led a somewhat nomadic life) have taught me the importance of listening for God in every new place - what am I HERE for, and how shall I know when I have correctly understood my marching orders. This causes me to engage in conversations with people I might otherwise be unaware of, & all has contributed greatly to my ability to observe God at work in and through others. TEM: Journeys, for me, have been those times when I look at the signposts along the way--that reveal God s presence in me and in others--that is always there. Sometimes I missed the exit. Oops! MH: The search for belonging...our hearts are restless until they find their rest in thee... NC: Augustine? MH: Yes my brother! MC: He was somebody who knew something about a journey! MW: I am always amazed at how I miss God s presence in my journeys until I get to a particular destination - and then am amazed at how I could have missed it! SW: My entire spiritual journey has been within the Episcopal Church. From baptism as an infant until leaving for college in one family sized church. But I don t think I ever met God in that church. The name of Jesus was never mentioned unless you were reading from the prayer book. It took an ecumenical Bible study to find God and then return to the church.

2 ABW: I describe my journey as there and back again in that I was born and grew up United Methodist, went away for about a decade to non-denominational church (most of that time at the church that Brian McLaren founded -- Cedar Ridge) and then met and married a UM Pastor and thus returned to UM -- but not the same as when I left. Moderator: In your seeking, did you ever ask the question, Who am I? as Bass suggests? TEM: I did ask who am I and eventually have come to that place of asking, as Bass says, whose am I? AF: YES!! I found that first I had to sort through who I was Not. Moderator: Say more about that if you would about who you were not. AF: Well, I was not anything like my Mother or Father or Brothers, so I had to give up efforts to behave/think like them. I was not the descriptions of a Christian I found in certain literature. It was a very l-o-n-g process of elimination. DB: It was who am I in the context of where I was at that point in my journey - those around me were oft the glue that made life make sense, and who took time to really engage in thoughtful, poignant conversation (even with a stubborn, willful kid). NC: As the child of a priest, and having lived in and around churches for my whole life, going away to boarding school was the real point of self-enquiry for me - especially when I first started thinking about ordination call - and if this was my own call or a vicarious one... DC: I first decided to find more out about God by Going to an evangelical study group across from where I live, it was different It made me curious, gave more a stronger biblical back ground then...watch out! MH: Does Church...confirmation class, sunday school etc... focus on belief or belonging? whose or Who? TEM: Does both! What it does not do well is provide different entry points with the expectation of transformation. NC: Could you elaborate on that? MH: I agree it should... but think it often (usually?) is a head mostly thing... learn what we believe... and the belonging was extracurricular TEM: Yes, it is head learning. What we don t do is heart and body well. And say to those who are yearning--there is more. AF: Although it was not phrased like that, my confirmation class (yonks ago) focused on whose we were. Because of our identity as Christ s Ones, certain behaviors/thought patterns were encouraged and others were discouraged. NC: The rote learning of the catechism that used to characterize confirmation class was about a kind of belonging in the sense that you were being inducted into a club and less about what one s identity in Christ was Moderator: Could the catechism be used as a way to understand first who is, then to help one

3 find him/herself in God? SDW: Isn t there a validity to knowing something like a catechism, though? I think it s analogous to teaching...you constantly push students to explore and think, but they also need a common language to share and create more knowledge among themselves. AF: We had to learn the catechism too, but it was the discussion of the meaning behind the questions that led to the richness of discovery. TEM: Some come to faith by heart--some by body--some by head. To be balanced. AF: We went to confirmation class because we were afraid the Dean would report us to the Headmistress if we didn t, but I still remember the shiver of excitement on discovering that God actually had a purpose in making me. Moderator: Bishop, I was fascinated by Bass s discussion of salvation on p. 183, as understood from the point of view of a seeker. What do you think about this understanding of salvation as wholeness? Michael Curry: I think this makes a lot of sense because salvation, I think, ultimately means to become truly who and what God created you to be. MH: I must say I was surprised to hear her talk about a decline in individual salvation... I hear lots of American Christians focused completely on the salvation of individual souls by personal relationships with Jesus... Michael Curry: I have a question - What do you say when someone asks you, Have you been saved? KT: The honest answer is numerous times. AF: I say yes; I have been, I am being, and I shall be saved. MH: On the date of my baptism... and every day since... TEM: Yes! Wholeness in relationship to God, self and others. DC: We talked about that at church Sunday night. The best answer I ever heard was My answer was over and over and over again I think that work also for me Moderator: Absolutely, time and time again. ABW: Salvation is a life as Dallas Willard aptly said it. NC: Yes, I would say to them. I have been saved and am reminded of that every day DB: Sealed as Christ s own forever and the multiple times I ve had to fall to me knees and say I blew it, I m sorry - help me do better next time Michael Curry: Was it Karl Barth, who said, I was saved in 33 AD when Jesus died on the cross? AF: That was the 1st time. Then there was today. MH: I also think there is a fairly individualist sense of personal salvation... but what about the more catholic sense that one is saved through the church...

4 Moderator: As long as the church works as a facilitator, not a gatekeeper. NC: Yes - in a sense that was what I meant about the way the catechism is taught Moderator: Salvation is part and parcel of that which we inherit as adopted children of God in Christ. We are saved, but will we claim it?? TEM: So, is salvation done and we are invited to participate in it...or not? NC: We are invited to participate inasmuch as we need to freely accept it ABW: More about participation than substituting... saved for rather than saved from... NC: I was taken with Diana BB s image of salvation as a caring, healing, anointing act - and the image of Christ s gentle care of our wounds. MH: Salve... Moderator: Great conversation on salvation, but let s move back closer to Bass text. Do you agree with her premise that our identities are more fluid than in the past? AF: I m not sure about more fluid. I think we use different frames of reference for identifying ourselves. NC: I really do think that our identities are allowed to be more fluid now. Identity was determined for one. I think that it is the context that determines the fluidity. KT: Our identities are certainly more fluid; and also more conflicted. DB: Yes - we as a nation are more mobile, come and go in different groups, work, activities - and this opens us up to more experiences which provide more reference points esp. as we engage within a faith community ABW: But we re no longer born into our identity -- i.e., just doing something because our family has always done it. MH: I d say my identity changes about as much as anyone at any time... it s the essence of me... but my roles... many more than would have been in the past... TEM: The ways in which we live out our identities are more fluid. NC: I think we certainly inhabit many more separate identities than we used to. And a challenge is how we link them together ABW: I guess the ultimate who am I as Diana discusses, is who am I in Christ?... and it s flipside -- Who is Christ (God) in me KT: There seems to be many more mirrors that reflect all of our unique identities. MH: I think the Christian journey is about finding my identity in God (as God made me)... and what is confusing is all the many roles and other selves I try to be because I m not really sure who I am created to be...

5 NC: This plurality is something that, say, young adults are very comfortable with and really are seeking in the church DB: I m finding more and more not-so-young adults are becoming comfortable with the fluidity Moderator: Bass seems spot on when she observes that fewer and fewer folks say I am Episcopalian but rather to say I go to an Episcopal church. This seems to reflect that plurality. NC: I think it s also about the way young adults (and others) understand affiliation and that affliliation now is seen differently as, say, older people might understand loyalty. I think that young adults view affiliation as for instance - going to one church one week, another another week, and maybe then not for a while, as absolutely fine - whereas some more established, older church members might see it as flaky and almost disloyal. AF: Is there any conversation about what is being learned in all the different church visits? About where belonging fits? NC: Oh, absolutely... yes - I think that it is often regarded as a richness to contributes to spiritual growth. MH: Great question! Where does the community hold if it s all fluid... where do we find roots? AF: Perhaps our roots become aerial. DC: Fluidity allows them to reach out in ever larger circles to create their own beliefs MH: Some have criticized the flexibility and floating as individualism... consumerist spirituality... Diana BB is pushing against that... what do you all think? TEM: I don t think it does. Just makes those of us who have budgets, ASA, etc. a little nervous. MH: Perhaps... but I m wondering about the potential of isolation in a world where I m tangentially related to a variety of communities that I float in and out of... TEM: We find our roots in a community that lives out the Baptismal covenant and in sacraments. In claiming common ground. MH: And hanging out there right? but not being chained there... But what about St. Benedict s concern about itinerant monks... those who aren t interested in stability but are always moving from place to place seeking greener pastures? AF: It makes a difference if you re going from place to place seeking greener pastures or taking (and receiving) the messages of hope and love in different communities. TEM: Right! There are greener pasture folks even in stable congregations. DC: Even green pasture people need stability to refresh, renew. Also, they have a chance to extend their influence NC: Is stability mutually e3xclusive of moving around?

6 MH: And God works with us when we journey and when we are still... some, perhaps are made for journey, others for stability... we all do both in the course of a lifetime... DC: I must admit I spent time at other church to discover what I thought I was missing, but I always came home because most other church have such a demanding for you to believe a certain way I found freedom to grow at home in my church NC: This is the challenge. THE big challenge for us. How do we hold this plurality in creative tension with the nurture of community MH: I m interested in playing with the WiFi concept of connectedness... Wireless... Fidelity... is that Church? NC: Wi-fi keeps us MORE connected rather than LESS AF: As one hymn puts it, The Church is wherever God s people are praising, serving, loving ABW: Kind of like the community gathering for these discussions. We re from all over and sharing our experience together. Michael Curry: This is somewhat related to the mobility and stability question: in the video... as Dr. Bass discusses the spiritual but not religious conversation, she says spiritual doesn t necessarily mean individual but can mean people in community and religious could mean being attached to institutions, denominations, organized religion buildings etc... When it comes to community what is the difference between spiritual and religious? Moderator: DBB has been a bit of fresh air for me on this one. It s a false dichotomy, to assume individualism is the opposite of religion. It s the opposite of community, but religion does not automatically equal community. MH: And isn t that one of the gifts of our age... in the recent past there was always one and only one true path... now there is a greater openness for many paths on the Way... DC: I agree a more open pathway is allowing others to find their own way, experience God/Christ in their own way, than share and learn MW: I would never have found my way if I had been left on my own DC: I understand that... Diana talked like we should be a community where we have mentors to help us along the way AF: I meet with various small groups in the community to work and discuss; as a Benedictine Oblate I am attached to Belmont Abbey; as a member of the Episcopal Church, I am attached to St Martin s Charlotte. I cross-pollinate all those groups and places with the gleanings from each of them. I still don t know the difference (if any) between spiritual & religious - it just doesn t come up as of crucial importance.