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1 H O U S E O F K E Y S O F F I C I A L R E P O R T R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Y C H I A R E A S F E E D P R O C E E D I N G S D A A L T Y N HANSARD Douglas, Tuesday, 13th February 2018 All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website: Supplementary material provided subsequent to a sitting is also published to the website as a Hansard Appendix. Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted on application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald s Office. Volume 135, No. 11 ISSN Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. Court of Tynwald, 2018

2 Present: The Speaker (Hon. J P Watterson) (Rushen); The Chief Minister (Hon. R H Quayle) (Middle); Mr J R Moorhouse and Hon. G D Cregeen (Arbory, Castletown and Malew); Hon. A L Cannan and Mr T S Baker (Ayre and Michael); Hon. C C Thomas and Mrs C A Corlett (Douglas Central); Miss C L Bettison and Mr C R Robertshaw (Douglas East); Hon. D J Ashford and Mr G R Peake (Douglas North); Mrs K J Beecroft and Hon. W M Malarkey (Douglas South); Mr M J Perkins and Mrs D H P Caine (Garff); Hon. R K Harmer and Hon. G G Boot (Glenfaba and Peel); Mr W C Shimmins (Middle); Mr R E Callister (Onchan); Dr A J Allinson and Mr L L Hooper (Ramsey); Hon. L D Skelly (Rushen); with Mr R I S Phillips, Secretary of the House. 472 K135

3 Business transacted Leave of absence granted Question 1.1 to be answered in writing Questions for Oral Answer Manx food producers Encouraging use of non-plastic materials Meat Plant Progress statement and new structure Questions for Written Answer Departmental Member in Cabinet Office Plans for replacement Government offices of 10 or more employees Locations Health and Social Care Regulator Report on proposals Health services Report on provision on or off Island Residential and nursing care Report on funding options Public sector housing Tynwald approval of fixed-term tenancies Order of the Day Consideration of Clauses Abortion Reform Bill 2018 Consideration of clauses commenced Standing Orders suspended to continue for further 30 minutes Abortion Reform Bill 2018 Consideration of clauses continued The House adjourned at 1.32 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m Abortion Reform Bill 2018 Consideration of clauses continued and adjourned Airports and Civil Aviation (Amendment) Bill 2018 Clauses considered Leave of absence granted to the Speaker The House adjourned at 3.05 p.m K135

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5 House of Keys The House met at a.m. [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] The Speaker: Moghrey mie, good morning, Hon. Members. 5 Members: Moghrey mie, good morning, Mr Speaker. The Speaker: I call on the Chaplain to lead us in prayer. PRAYERS The Chaplain of the House Leave of absence granted Question 1.1 to be answered in writing The Speaker: Hon. Members, I have received an indication this morning that Ms Edge has been unavoidably detained and will be late for the sitting. In her absence, Question 1 will be converted to a Written Question. 1. Questions for Oral Answer ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND AGRICULTURE 1.2. Manx food producers Encouraging use of non-plastic materials The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown, and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture: What his Department is doing to encourage Manx food producers to use non-plastic materials? The Speaker: Turning to Questions for Oral Answer, therefore, we turn to Question 2 and I call on the Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew, Mr Moorhouse. Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture what his Department is doing to encourage Manx food producers to use non-plastic materials? 475 K135

6 The Speaker: I call on the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to reply The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr Speaker. As this Hon. House will be aware, my Department is successfully supporting growth in the food and drink industry via the Food Matters Strategy. There are many innovations in Manx food and drink businesses, and sustainable packaging is already at the core of many of these businesses. However, the Island s food producers often work on tight margins, especially with regard to packaging and it would be unfair to implement any measures that make them uncompetitive. My Department does support businesses who wish to change. Although we cannot support them with actual packaging, we are able to support with the technology needed to make the change, whether this is machinery for sterilising glass bottles or equipment for packaging that does not use plastic. We can help, and have helped, local businesses make this change. I would like to put on record that my Department is currently working with the industry on the tenth Isle of Man Food and Drink Festival to look at ways of decreasing plastic waste being generated. One such way, I am pleased to tell the House, is that the Festival Committee will encourage all local food producers not to hand out plastic bags during this weekend. Exhibiting producers will be asked to make a pledge in their application form demonstrating at least one change they have made to become more environmentally friendly, whether this is by decreasing the amount of plastic packaging or decreasing their carbon footprint in other ways. The Chief Minister, on 30th January, made a commitment via the Environment and Infrastructure Committee to develop the plan for the reduction in Government plastic usage. We must lead by example. We are now well aware single-use plastic has a wide range of environmental consequences. Plastics are made from oil and their production requires additional energy contributing to climate change. Waste plastics are having a devastating impact on the marine environment and infiltrating our food chain. Plastics used in the food and drink packaging can have long-term environmental consequences and for human health. Whilst plastic is an extremely useful material, there is now global recognition of the inherent problem of single-use disposable plastic products. We will endeavour to work on a local scale and play our part in international change required to move away from unnecessary use of plastic. Members may be aware that Shoprite have announced the introduction of a single-use plastic bag levy. (A Member: Hear, hear.) This means that, voluntarily, nearly all major retailers are now discouraging single-use carrier bags. A key point I would like to make is that food businesses are primarily consumer led. If consumer demands change and customers want something specific, businesses must evolve to address these needs. Clearly plastic usage is a topic that consumers are increasingly aware of and demanding sustainable solutions from food producers. In conclusion, I believe that the Island s consumers want change and businesses need to and will follow, with many already having excellent green credentials. My Department, through the Food Matters Strategy, are ready and waiting to assist businesses wanting to improve their green credentials. The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Shimmins. Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr Speaker. It was great to hear from the Minister of the DEFA initiatives to reduce plastic being consumed at the Isle of Man Food and Drink Festival. Will he extend this approach to other mass participation events that receive Government support? The Speaker: Minister to reply. 476 K135

7 The Minister: I am happy to say that where we have influence we will do so Meat Plant Progress statement and new structure The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture: If he will make a statement on progress with the Meat Plant and set out the new structure under which it will operate? The Speaker: We turn then to Question 3, and I call on the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper. Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture if he will make a statement on progress with the Meat Plant and set out the new structure under which it will operate? The Speaker: I call on the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to reply The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank the Hon. Member for this timely Question. I can advise that the new business has been formed and is a private limited company registered as the Isle of Man Meat Company Limited. The company has two shareholders, my Department and the Fatstock Marketing Association (FMA). My Department, as the principal funding vehicle for the business, holds the main decision-making powers with regard to the make-up of the board and the overall strategy for the business, with the FMA retaining a share and a single director on the board. At this current moment we are reaching final agreement on the transfer of assets and liabilities from the current operator, the FMA trading as Isle of Man Meats, and expect that agreement to be signed in the next couple of weeks, with the draft transfer currently being considered by the FMA s advocate and the Attorney General s Chamber. Unfortunately this process is taking longer than anticipated to sort out the tremendous amount of detail which is understandably causing concern for the FMA directors as well as ourselves. However, when signed, this will provide the opportunity for the new business to start taking control of running the operation. Once the transfer is completed it is the intention for the Isle of Man Meat Company to take on the Isle of Man Meats trading name. The new business has consulted on its pricing procurement strategy to industry and I believe industry will be relieved to hear that this will be communicated and implemented as soon as the agreement is signed. The further strategy of the board in order of priority is: (1) to optimise efficiency in the Plant and instil a positive culture among the workforce who have been operating under a cloud of uncertainty for some time; (2) to improve local sales primarily through improved relationships with butchers and supermarkets; and (3) seek one or more strategic partners in the UK to ensure a steady and profitable route to market for meat additional to local requirements. The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Hooper. 105 Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think that answer throws up a number of supplementaries, but I will try and handle them one at a time. 477 K135

8 110 Does the Minister accept that taking direct control and Government becoming the primary decision-maker within the operation of the Meat Plant is a fundamental shift in policy from where we were last year? And, if so, why he decided not to bring this to Tynwald? The Speaker: Minister to reply The Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The vires to support the agricultural sector comes from the 1914 Agriculture and Rural Industries Act which provides wide powers to support the industry. DEFA current policy remains unchanged which recognises support for the Meat Plant through Tynwald-approved policies namely the Food Matters Strategy, November 2014; Food Security Strategy, June 2014; and Developing a Reliable, Sustainable, Self Reliant Manx Agriculture, December The Food Matters Strategy recognised the value of the meat sector and the ability to add value locally to having a meat plant. The Food Security Strategy refers to the 2008 strategy and acknowledges the ongoing commitment to assist the Meat Plant. The 2008 document in particular sets out a number of key areas in relation to the Meat Plant that was signed off by Tynwald and remain as relevant now as they did when approved in Two areas I would like to draw attention to are page 3, Summary: The Department is firmly of a view that the plants must be able to offer an equivalent processing charge and return to farmers as their UK competitors, as without this level playing field the move away from production related support will fail to deliver the reliable, sustainable and self-reliant Manx food supply chain. The Department intends to find EU compatible ways to provide the support needed to ensure that all the plants operate in a competitive manner providing both UK equivalent charges and returns to our farmers. Page 15: The Department also believes that there may be scope to further restructure the operation of the Meatplant which should help offset these challenges. Subsequently a long term solution will need to be evolved, reflecting factors such as the level of marketing success, the level of Meatplant throughput and the remaining design life of the existing plant. The Department will work closely with the industry, during the next few years, to find the best solution for our meat plant, reviewing all available models, including subvention, municipalisation, or the possible development of several smaller scale plants. And in Appendix 3: The Department strongly believe that a Meatplant is a fundamental part of our local food supply process from the perspective of adding value on the Island, contributing to the local economy, ensuring staple food products are available irrespective of unforeseen ferry transport issues and the possible public concern about the animal welfare aspects of large volume live exports I would just add, what is the point of a long-term strategy if we are continually going to change and update it? The Speaker: Like a long-term answer. (Laughter) I call on Mrs Beecroft, supplementary question. Thank you. Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am just wondering if the Minister could clarify in quite a short sentence the hopes that the Department has for the anticipated effect on the live export, because this is something that really concerns an awful lot of people, which is why I am saying, just a short bit to say what are your hopes, what reduction are you expecting in live exports, or what are you hopeful for and what can that be measured against? The Speaker: Minister to reply. 478 K135

9 The Minister: Thank you. Obviously having a meat plant on Island is essential, it is a strategic asset and without a meat plant, an abattoir, to process meat all our exports would be live. We have seen, as the plant became less competitive in terms of its pricing to the farmers, increased numbers of live exports. With improved efficiency, better marketing and improved pricing to the farmers, I believe we will stem that increase in live exports and may well reduce it considerably. The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Hooper. Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would be grateful if the Minister could perhaps circulate the information with respect to specifically the legal vires the Department has to establish companies under itself. But specifically I would like if he can answer the question: what restrictions are there on the borrowing powers of this Government company? The Speaker: Minister to reply The Minister: Thank you. I am very happy to circulate our vires to all Members at a later date rather than go into it in detail now. With regard to borrowing and I guess the MEA comes to mind here the board are bound by a set of terms and conditions set out by DEFA. These include a clause that does not permit any borrowing unless authorised by DEFA. Funding comes via DEFA and the Treasury, and as such the company will not get into external debt. The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mrs Beecroft Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Could I ask the Minister to clarify when he says that the actions that are taken are hopefully going to stem the increase in live exports and then possibly reduce them? That did not give me anything to hang a hat on and say this is what they are hoping for, this is what they are aiming for if all we are doing is trying to stem the increase it does not seem a very shall we say a very robust action to be taking that we are just hoping that it is not going to get any worse. So if he and answer my original question as to actually what they are hoping to do and what measures we can measure against to see how they are performing, that would be most helpful. Thank you. The Speaker: Minister to reply. The Minister: I think I made that quite clear in my first answer, inasmuch that if we have no meat plant, every export will be live. If we have a meat plant and we want to make it a more viable meat plant, we cannot command or make the farmers send their animals through the Meat Plant, so our strategy is to improve pricing and make it if I could use the word equivalent to the UK, so there is no incentive to send animals across. How do we measure that? Fairly easy. On a monthly basis we know what the returns are and we will be able to see quite clearly whether we are succeeding with the number of animals going through the Meat Plant or those that are being exported. Very easy to measure. The Speaker: Supplementary, Mr Hooper. Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr Speaker. 479 K135

10 195 Now that the Meat Plant is going to be a Government-owned company, can the Minister please advise whether or not it will be subject to Freedom of Information requests? The Speaker: Minister to reply The Minister: The company is a private company, it is a limited company, it is not Government-owned as such. The information that we process through DEFA I assume will be subject to FOI, but the company itself is a private company and operates with a number of shareholders the FMA and DEFA. The Speaker: Supplementary question, Mr Shimmins. Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Minister said he cannot command farmers to send animals to the Meat Plant rather than across. He could adjust some of the other agricultural subsidies to encourage behaviour for farmers to support the Meat Plant which has been supported by the taxpayers of the Isle of Man. Will he consider that approach going forward? The Speaker: Minister to reply. The Minister: Thank you. I think this is Mr Shimmins famous stick-and-carrot solution to farming and the Agricultural Development Scheme (ADS). What I can say is that there are two avenues for us to explore and the Meat Plant one in terms of pricing is one, but we are in the midst of an ADS reform, we are working with the NFU and stakeholders and hopefully and I use the word hopefully because we need to get some agreement on a way forward over the next few months we will announce new measures in terms of ADS that may involve some stick and carrot. But I cannot expose those to this House at the moment because we are very much in our early days. The Speaker: Final supplementary question, Mr Hooper. Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am a little bit concerned by Minister s answer regarding Freedom of Information. How does he marry that up with the Government s commitment to being transparent and open and honest with the Manx public, when we have a taxpayer-funded entity that will not be subject to Freedom of Information? Would it not have made sense to incorporate that within the company s articles? The Speaker: Minister to reply. The Minister: This is a private company and as such is not subject to Freedom of Information. The company will produce accounts and it will be reporting back to DEFA. If the information that is received by DEFA falls within certain parameters, it will be available for Freedom of Information. The Speaker: That brings us to the end of Questions for Oral Answer. Item 2 is Questions for Written Answer and those will be circulated in the usual way. 480 K135

11 2. Questions for Written Answer CHIEF MINISTER 1.1. Departmental Member in Cabinet Office Plans for replacement The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Chief Minister: What plans he has to appoint a departmental Member to the Cabinet Office to replace Mr Ashford? 245 The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): I can confirm I do have plans to replace the Member in due course. POLICY AND REFORM 2.1. Government offices of 10 or more employees Locations The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown, and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform: What the location is of each Government Department and subsidiary office where 10 or more directly employed workers are based, excepting schools? 250 The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Thomas): The numbers of staff in offices and indeed the number of offices is evolving as the Office Accommodation Strategy continues to seek to maintain a co-ordinated overview of activities across the office property portfolio. The Strategy is focused on delivering suitable accommodation whilst reducing the amount of office/rented accommodation occupied by Government and thus revenue expenditure. Government Department Locations A list of locations where 10 or more directly employed workers are based is provided for Government Departments, according to the Oracle HR/Payroll system. Attorney General s Chambers St Mary s Court, Douglas Cabinet Office Cronk Coar, Noble s Hospital Site, Douglas Government Office, Douglas Illiam Dhone House, Douglas Keyll Daree, Noble s Hospital Site, Douglas Markwell House, Douglas Sea Terminal, Douglas St Andrew s House, Douglas The Lodge, Douglas 481 K135

12 Clerk of Tynwald & Tynwald Members Legislative Buildings, Douglas Courts of Justice Courts of Justice, Douglas Education, Sport & Culture Hamilton House, Douglas National Sports Centre, Douglas Peel Youth Centre, Peel Pulrose Youth Centre, Douglas Ramsey Youth Centre, Ramsey Villa Marina, Douglas Youth Arts Centre, Douglas Enterprise St Georges Court, Douglas The Registries, Douglas Viscount House, Douglas Environment, Food & Agriculture Ballakermeen Road, Douglas Murray House, Douglas Saw Mill, St John s Thie Slieau Whallian, St John s Wild Life Park, Ballaugh Financial Intelligence Unit Finch Hill House, Douglas Gambling Supervision Commission St Georges Court, Douglas Health & Social Care Appledene, Douglas Noble s Hospital, Noble s Hospital Site, Douglas Bungalow 1, Douglas Cronk Coar, Noble s Hospital Site, Douglas Crookall House, Douglas Cummal Mooar, Ramsey Cushag House, Port St Mary Douglas Ambulance Station, Noble s Hospital Site, Douglas Eastcliffe, Douglas Gansey Unit, Port St Mary Garaghyn Glass, Noble s Hospital Site, Douglas Geddyn Reesht, Noble s Hospital Site, Douglas Grianagh Court, Noble s Hospital Site, Douglas Hill Street, Douglas Hillary House, Douglas Hollydene, Douglas Markwell House, Douglas Murray House, Douglas Palatine House, Douglas Ramsey Hospital, Ramsey Reayrt Noa, Douglas 482 K135

13 Reayrt Ny Baie, Douglas Reayrt Skyal, Ramsey Southlands, Port St Mary The Lodge, Douglas Thie Ain, Douglas Thie Caarjys, Ramsey Thie Grianagh, Douglas Thie Meanagh Sweetbriar, Douglas Westmoreland Road, Douglas Home Affairs Castletown and Malew Fire and Ambulance Station, Malew Castletown Police Station, Castletown Fire Brigade Control, Douglas IoM Prison, Jurby Kirk Michael Fire Station, Kirk Michael Laxey Fire Station, Laxey Port Erin Fire Station, Port Erin Peel Fire Station, Peel Police Headquarters, Douglas Ramsey Fire Station, Ramsey Tromode House, Douglas Infrastructure Airport, Ballasalla Ballamona Farm House, Noble s Hospital Site, Douglas Banks Circus, Douglas Castletown Coastguard, Castletown Douglas Bus Station, Douglas Douglas Coastguard, Douglas Ellerslie Depot, Crosby Hills Meadow Depot, Douglas Markwell House, Douglas Port Erin Bus Station, Port Erin Peel Coastguard, Peel Peregrine House, Douglas Police Headquarters, Douglas Poortown Quarry, Peel Port Erin Coastguard, Port Erin Ramsey Bus Station, Ramsey Ramsey Coastguard, Ramsey Sea Terminal, Douglas Snugborough Estate, Douglas Vehicle Testing Centre, Douglas IOM Financial Services Authority Finch Hill House, Douglas Manx National Heritage Manx Museum, Douglas Manx Utilities (Water) Ballacottier, Douglas 483 K135

14 Meary Veg, Santon Office of Fair Trading Thie Slieau Whallian, St John s Public Sector Pensions Authority Prospect House, Douglas Treasury Custom House, Douglas Government Office, Douglas Markwell House, Douglas 255 Manx Utilities and the Isle of Man Post Office have also provided location information in relation to employer workers across divisions. Isle of Man Post Office Postal Headquarters, Spring Valley Industrial Estate, Douglas, IM2 1AA Isle of Man Stamps & Coins & Vehicle Licensing, Barleyfields, Isle of Man Business Park, Douglas, IM99 1PB Southern Delivery Office, Ronaldsway Industrial Estate, Ballasalla, IM9 2AA Peel Sorting Office, Douglas Street, Peel, IM5 1AA Northern Delivery Office, Gladstone Way, Ramsey, IM8 2AA Manx Utilities Manx Utilities Headquarters, Ballacottier, Braddan Pulrose Power Station, Pulrose Road, Douglas Peel Power Station, Mill Road, Peel Douglas Water Treatment Works, Homefield Road, Douglas Meary Veg Sewerage Works, Santon It should be noted that these locations may not be the employees actual place of work. HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE 2.2. Health and Social Care Regulator Report on proposals The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care: When he will report on proposals for an independent Health and Social Care Regulator; and if he will make a statement? The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): The Department of Health and Social Care has contacted regulators of health and social care services across the United Kingdom over the last year and asked them both whether they are legally able to conduct regulatory work outside the United Kingdom: and, if so, whether they would be willing to conduct such work in the Isle of Man. Discussions are still underway with some parties, and the DHSC is not yet in a position to consider policy options and then carry out a public consultation. Unsurprisingly, there may be benefits and costs were an external regulator to be appointed. Services ought to be reviewed by appropriate, experienced external professionals from time to time, and acting on the recommendations from such reviews can only improve the services. 484 K135

15 However, regulators in the United Kingdom tend to operate on the basis of recovering their costs from the entities and services that they regulate: for example by charging a sliding-scale of license fees. The Isle of Man has, at the same time, similar law and practice in respect of many aspects of health and social services and some different law and practice in others. This means that a programme of regulation, whether provided by a single or more than one body, will need to be bespoke for the Isle of Man, and the related costs cannot be estimated at this point. In summary, and in keeping with the Programme for Government, the DHSC is investigating and will make proposals for independent regulation of health and social care during As the Hon. Member will be aware, aspects of any regulation will cut across Government Departments and it is therefore important that this aspect is also properly investigated and considered Health services Report on provision on or off Island The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care: When he will report on where health services will be provided on or off Island; and if he will make a statement? The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): One of the Department s Programme for Government objectives is to Define the services which will be provided on-island and those which will be provided off-island. The timescale for this to be completed is March Acute healthcare has become and will continue to be increasingly specialised which presents a challenge for Island populations like our own. This specialisation does not just apply to the doctors but also to nurses, paramedics and therapists, and to the environments in which they work, which includes access to specialist equipment. It is not feasible to provide some specialist services on Island. This is partly because of cost, but even more importantly, it is difficult for a doctor (or other clinician) to stay competent in dealing with a certain condition if they only deal with a few such cases a year. Safe medical practice increasingly requires sufficient throughput of cases to ensure that doctors, nurses and other clinicians get sufficient exposure to relevant conditions to maintain their competence. International evidence shows that the best outcomes for patients who are acutely ill or who have complex chronic conditions are achieved by specialist teams in specialist settings. The Department is identifying which specialties and sub-specialties can be safely and affordably provided on Island, and which will need to be provided in off Island specialist centres. Over the past few years, progress has been made in linking Noble s services to clinical networks in the north-west of England. The Department will need to assure itself that the current arrangements provide the best value, considering other options if it is clear that improved patient experience or value for money can be achieved. This could include more visiting clinicians to provide outpatient clinics on Island and greater use of technology to prevent people having to travel when it is not absolutely necessary. 485 K135

16 2.4. Residential and nursing care Report on funding options The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care: When he will report on funding options for residential and nursing care; and if he will make a statement? The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): In July 2017, Minister for Policy and Reform, Chris Thomas, MHK made a statement to Tynwald as Chair of the Social Policy and Children s Sub Committee of the Council of Ministers to report progress on the findings of the Report of a Tynwald Select Committee on the Funding of Nursing and Residential Care Minister Thomas reported that the Social Policy and Children s Committee had received a paper submitted by the Department of Health and Social Care after cross-government discourse which briefed Members on policy issues which needed to be addressed. The sub-committee agreed to establish an officer task and finish group to consider the Programme for Government Action consider and recommend funding options for residential and nursing care. Minister Thomas acknowledged that this is a hugely important topic, and that officers from Health and Care, Treasury, Cabinet Office and Housing had started working together on this issue and progress was being made. Progress continues to date, with the officer task group led by senior officers in Health and Social Care reporting regularly to a Project Board chaired by Minister Thomas and with political representation from Infrastructure, Treasury, and DHSC. A particular focus of its work in most recent weeks has been facilitating three focus groups initially with a group of Government employees in December 2017, then a wider range of stakeholders in early January and most recently on 31st January with the wider general public at the Manx Legion. At the latest event officers from Treasury s Social Security team (supported by Minister Thomas and Mr Ralph Peake MHK from Treasury) provided detail on the current mechanisms for payment of Nursing or Residential placements and outlined the financial gap (over and above benefit allowances that the majority of Island residents access) when in need of a Nursing or Residential care placement. The discussion also included privately funded placements for those individuals who do not need to access any funding through social security benefits. One of the key issues with regard to the current model is how the gap between the levels of benefit funding and the cost of care placements is met. Currently this can be through additional contributions made by an individual using savings or assets, or through support from family members. Providing information on the current funding of care models has proved to be very helpful and has stimulated a very complex and informative discussion between Government and the public which has not finished and is likely to continue for some time. Feedback to date is that people accept that the current model is not sustainable or equitable and needs to change. The officer task group will continue to work on proposals to present to the Political Project Board in the remaining months prior to the agreed date of July 2018 when Tynwald will receive the final report for consideration. 486 K135

17 INFRASTRUCTURE 2.5. Public sector housing Tynwald approval of fixed-term tenancies The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure: Further to his Answer of 30th January 2018, whether the approval by Tynwald of the fixedterm tenancies to which he refers related to (a) approval of the recommendations included in the Department of Social Care report entitled Housing Review Recommendations Report in November 2013 or (b) another approval? The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Harmer): The approval by Tynwald referred to in my answer of 30th January 2018 concerned the approval of the Housing Review recommendations in November Drafting of the Housing Review recommendations was in part informed by the results of a wide-ranging public consultation undertaken during Support for limited term tenancies stood at 84.5% from the public consultation and with a 92.3% positive response from Local Authorities. The proposal to deliver limited term tenancies was taken through formal approval within the Department of Social Care. Subsequent to this approval there was further consultation with housing authorities K135

18 Order of the Day Dr Allinson to move. 3. CONSIDERATION OF CLAUSES 3.1. Abortion Reform Bill 2018 Consideration of clauses commenced The Speaker: We then turn to Item 3, consideration of clauses in the Abortion Reform Bill. Hon. Members, I circulated a memorandum yesterday which will provide the basis of today s proceedings. We now turn to clauses and I call on Dr Allinson to move clause 1. Dr Allinson: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to move clause 1, the short title of the Bill, which is the Abortion Reform Act The Speaker: Miss Bettison. Miss Bettison: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. The Speaker: Mr Robertshaw Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg to move that the House do resolve itself into the Committee of the Whole House under Standing Order 4.4A. The Speaker: Dr Allinson. Dr Allinson: I would like to second that, Mr Speaker. The Speaker: Hon. Members, the question is that we resolve ourselves into Committee of the Whole House. Is that agreed? (Members: Agreed.) Thank you. In Committee of the Whole House The Speaker: As we are now in Committee of the Whole House, I can advise that there are four witnesses that have been invited to attend today. They are Lord Brennan QC, Ms Jasvinder Sanghera CBE, Mr Bob Fayle and Mr Howard Connell, and all will be available for questions by Members during the course of the sitting. The themes that have been identified are set out in the memorandum which was circulated yesterday and, in the absence of Lord Brennan as he makes his way to join us this morning, I would propose that we would start with sex selection which is on that list in part C, and with that, I will invite Mr Robertshaw to commence questioning. Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I ask the House to recognise Ms Jasvinder Sanghera CBE, who is a spokeswoman for Stop Genocide UK. She was born and brought up in Derby, a survivor of a forced marriage. She is the founder of Karma Nirvana, a national award-winning charity that supports both men and women 488 K135

19 affected by honour-based abuse and forced marriages. She is a highly acclaimed international speaker and an expert adviser to the courts on the matters of child, civil and criminal proceedings. She also chairs domestic homicide reviews and was instrumental in ensuring that all UK police forces are required to improve their understanding of honour-based abuse and forced marriage, by inspectors conducted by Her Majesty s Inspectorate of Constabulary. Jasvinder s memoir Shame was described in the House of Lords as a political weapon and, along with Daughters of Shame, is a Sunday Times top bestseller. I have a copy before me and I am not promoting a book on her behalf! May I then, Mr Speaker, welcome Jasvinder to today s session and wish to thank her very much indeed for joining us in this incredibly important debate, and I am sure we will listen very carefully to your contribution. Mr Speaker, I would like to begin by asking a series of questions. Ms Sanghera, sex-selective abortions may happen in some parts of the world but surely not in the British Isles? Ms Sanghera: First of all, thank you for inviting me to this sitting here today. With respect to the question, not happening in the British Isles, I have to say I disagree with that. I also believe it is precisely that attitude that makes people believe that; that also allows this to go underground even more where victims are more isolated. I took the liberty of looking at your population demographics yesterday and it was a profile of 2018, and according to those demographics, 1.9% of the population are Asian, Asian/British and 1.5% are Other. I also looked at the 2016 census and I particularly looked at Asian and Middle Eastern communities, of which it detailed there were 715 in population in 2016 and Middle Eastern, 77. The reason I raised that is because if we are to surmise that you do not have a significant minority group here, therefore it is not an issue, two things happen. Those people who are at risk will not have that level of understanding when they report and you will not be able to identify them. If I may, I would like to give the example of Shafilea Ahmed. Shafilea Ahmed was a British citizen born in Bradford, moved to Warrington, which was a town with not significant minority groups. She was Muslim, one of five siblings, and reported honour-based abuse, which is whereby a young teenager reports being abused by family members for fear of shaming the family. That shame can be linked to behaviours such as wishing to integrate, wishing to seek choices, rights and independence. At every point where she reported to over four statutory organisations and one nonstatutory organisation there was this unwitting connivance to fears of cultural sensitivities and fears of offending, whereby professionals looked the other way and they did not believe it was such a problem because there was not a significant minority group in their area. Therefore she was let down. Subsequently, this girl was murdered at the age of 17 years old. Her family actually murdered her. When we look at that case and we look at some of the attitudes of the professionals that existed, one of the things that contributed to the fact that she was not supported and identified as being at risk was because within Warrington there was the attitude that there were not many of them here, therefore we do not actually have a problem. My point is that I think you have more of a problem if you have fewer minority groups because your victims will be more vulnerable, more isolated and less likely to report. Mr Robertshaw: Isn t the truth that the gender selective issue is something that has been highlighted in the British Isles somewhat disingenuously by those wanting to champion a wider anti-choice agenda? 489 K135

20 Ms Sanghera: No, I do not believe that because ultimately the victims that we are talking about who will be pressured or coerced into aborting foetuses do not have a choice actually and we are talking about protecting the most vulnerable of victims. In these cases it is not about undermining those rights and choices; it is about protecting those victims so that we give them a choice and a right to be able to keep that child, not to be pressured, not to be coerced in having to abort the child on the basis of gender selection. So actually I do not think that is the case, that we are removing rights and choices. I believe we actually have a responsibility and a duty to identify the most vulnerable and also empower them so that they have a choice to overcome the coercion that they will face. Incidentally, it is important to note that if we are looking at minority groups and in my area of expertise I have worked with South Asian communities, Somalian, Kurdish, Afghan, Iranian communities etc. the people who are coercing them and pressuring them are very often within a family dynamic. They are immediate or extended family members and they will always have multiple perpetrators who are coercing them and pressuring them. So they are incredibly vulnerable. Mr Robertshaw: Thank you. But hasn t the British Government said that there is not an issue in England and Wales? Ms Sanghera: I have to say that in the opinion of many, including victims and survivors Our charity is in its 25th year; we operate the national helpline dealing with over 850 calls a month nationally, of which we do hear victims calling the helpline in these circumstances, where they are being forced to abort female foetuses and coerced into it too. What the Government did not do is they did not go far enough to hear the testimonies of victims in this case, I have to say. What we also felt was let down with the fact that these tales of suffering which we hear every day were not heard by Members of Parliament. That was not part of the debate, I hasten to add, and it is important to hear that. I proactively campaigned for the criminalisation of forced marriage for 10 years in England and Wales, and one of the things I know is that there was a huge camp who were against the criminalisation of forced marriage. They argued that to criminalise forced marriage would make it go underground even more and victims would not report, they would not want to get their families into trouble. That is what they argued. So we lost the battle in 2005 in terms of criminalisation and then we had another consultation when David Cameron was Prime Minister, and at the heart of that consultation was the testimonies of survivors who had been forced into marriages, who were very clear that if they were given the right support and they were identified and education etc. and they were protected, they would criminalise their family. They would pursue a prosecution if they were protected. That created a law because that is a powerful testimony. I feel that part of the reason why there was a reluctance to go far on this debate in terms of the gender selection conversation in the UK had very much to do with a lack of understanding and awareness and education also. Mr Robertshaw: In a way, Jasvinder, you have, to some extent, answered my next question, but I will ask it just in case there is an additional addendum you want to put to it. The Isle of Man is less ethnically diverse than many parts of Great Britain, so why should we be concerned? Ms Sanghera: It is so difficult to accept uncomfortable truths and have uncomfortable dialogues and what I know about my own personal experience is I was born in Britain, I am one of seven sisters and one of the things I know about my mother who was an Indian woman who arrived in this country in Britain in the 1950s with my father, the abuse that we suffered within our family dynamic as females, understanding that we were second-class citizens, understanding 490 K135

21 that our sexuality was controlled by many family members, had very much to do with the fact that my family members would justify it on account of culture, tradition and/or religion, which frankly is not right. Cultural acceptance does not mean accepting the unacceptable. But the point here is my mother would be frowned upon for giving birth to seven daughters. In fact people would come to the house and almost look at her as if they were in grief and how could this happen to her?, because to give birth to a daughter is actually not a blessing; it is a curse, for a number of reasons. But I was born here and where we lived there were not many minority groups, and the thing here is my family always had the power. What I want to ensure is that where you have fewer minority groups, those individuals are going to be heard in the context of being citizens of your country and that they should be given the same safeguarding regard as anybody else. I am not sure and convinced that that is happening in the UK and it is very important that we recognise that rights for people should be rights for everybody. We are made to believe that our family have the power to control us. It is only by seeking professional help we are told something different, but we need people to recognise our rights are very often removed from us and justified on the grounds of religion, tradition and culture, and that is a powerful weapon that they will use. Mr Robertshaw: Thank you. The Speaker: I have Mr Hooper and Mr Boot who have indicated that they would also like to ask a question at this point. Mr Hooper. Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. You have given us a lot of information about what happens in the UK (Ms Sanghera: Yes.) and you mentioned you get a lot of calls nationally raising concerns. Can you advise if you have had any calls from anyone resident on the Isle of Man? Ms Sanghera: I have to say I have not checked that information with regard to my helpline but I certainly can go back, because we geographically record where all our calls are coming from as well as numbers. So that is absolutely something that I can follow up. Mr Hooper: Okay, thanks. You also mentioned you have got concerns about safeguarding not being taken very seriously in the UK and you do not think the provisions in the UK Act are appropriate. Would you care to comment on the provisions in the draft Bill that we are talking about on the Isle of Man, the provisions specifically in section 9 surrounding informed consent or the requirement for doctors to be acting in good faith, whether you would feel those provisions are providing adequate safeguarding? Ms Sanghera: In my opinion, I believe you need more than acting in good faith. I think there is a need to have more stringent and stronger procedural measures. For example, in these cases if our potential victims go to see a GP then if she is seeing the GP in the presence of a family member she will not disclose the pressure and coercion. There is a need for very clear guidelines in terms of conducting an assessment and what that assessment looks like in terms of identifying risk, and doing a risk assessment and then identifying somebody of concern. So there are a number of things I think that one has to consider in terms of measures to be able to identify somebody. Incidentally, just to say, going back to the point you made earlier about the Isle of Man and calls to the helpline, it is very important that victims are aware a helpline exists in order to receive calls. So if I go back and we do not have calls from the Isle of Man, that is not because it 491 K135

22 is not happening in the Isle of Man; it may be the case that people are not aware of a national helpline. Mr Hooper: You just mentioned that you think there need to be guidelines about risk assessments and the direct operational side of things how GPs would determine if they feel someone is being coerced. (Ms Sanghera: Sure.) That is not really something we can do in legislation. That, to my mind, is up to the GMC in the UK to tell their doctors exactly what is expected of them. Is that a position that you would accept, or do you believe that actually we should be putting within our primary legislation very specific guidelines that really cannot be altered, it is very difficult to change them? Or is it better left up to the medical professionals to actually decide what is appropriate for doctors who are providing these services? Ms Sanghera: I believe you have to address sex selection and abuses of coercion and pressure within the amendments, absolutely, because that sends out a very direct message and a clear message and will help to In the same way we have created criminal legislation, one of the objectives of criminalising forced marriage was to shift attitudes and shift cultures and it was an opportunity to send out a clear message, and you will build on that. The Speaker: Mr Hooper Mr Hooper: Okay, the final question then. The Bill as drafted requires that informed consent is obtained, informed consent being consent by a woman of her own free will. This Bill makes it illegal to provide abortion services where there is no informed consent, so that has already been done. It is already enshrined in legislation here to say if you do not have informed consent, which is consent by a woman of her own free will, you are breaking the law. That is a criminal act. There is not much more that we can do in primary law other than saying, If you do this it is illegal and you will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. How you determine that is, as you have already identified, a matter for guidelines. So would you accept that actually the law as drafted is criminalising exactly the things you are talking about that should be criminalised and the next step is to make sure that we have appropriate guidance in place to make sure that when this law is applied in practice, it is done fairly and it is done appropriately? Ms Sanghera: I do not think it goes far enough to make the point that gender sex selection is illegal. It might be a matter of law for the other witnesses but I do not think that it goes far enough, no. Mr Hooper: Sorry, I was talking about coercion then, not specifically Ms Sanghera: The informed consent? Mr Hooper: Yes, specifically about because it seems to me that gender sex selection, the core issue is about coercion that is what you have talked about. (Ms Sanghera: Yes.) So, primarily, if we can make sure that coercion is not happening, that coercion itself is illegal, is against the law, that gets rid of, or tries to address at least, the primary cause, the primary concern that you have explained today. Ms Sanghera: The issue that you have is how does one assess informed consent when somebody is under such pressure. Mr Hooper: Again, I 492 K135