Oral History Interview with Millicent E. Brown

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1 Oral History Interview with Millicent E. Brown AMN 1139 Interviewee: Interviewer(s): Millicent E. Brown Vanessa Jackson Interview Date: circa 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Interview Length: 57:52 Supplemental Material: Includes transcript, interview release form, select photos, and subsequent letter from formerly hostile student. Abstract In this interview, Dr. Millicent E. Brown offers an in depth account of her experience as one of the two initial African American students to integrate Rivers High School of Charleston, SC. The interview is what Dr. Brown labeled as the prototype for the Somebody Had To Do It project, which is designed as a multi-disciplinary study to identify, locate, interview and acknowledge the African American first children who desegregated America s schools. Supporting materials include photos of Brown depicting her childhood growing up in an activist home and her development; a photocopied New York Times front page article of her long time friend, the late Barbara Solomon; and a 2009 apologetic letter from formerly hostile classmate, Penney Hedgepath. Page 1 of 18

2 Subject Headings Brown, Millicent Ellison, Brown, Millicent Ellison, -- Trials, Litigation, etc. Brown, J. Arthur, African Americans -- Civil rights -- South Carolina -- Charleston. African American college teachers. African Americans -- Education -- South Carolina -- Charleston. African Americans -- South Carolina -- Charleston -- History -- 20th century. African American universities and colleges. Charleston County School District No. 20 (S.C.) Trials, litigation, etc. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Charleston Branch (Charleston, S.C.) Rivers High School (Charleston, S.C.) History. School Integration South Carolina Charleston History. Social action South Carolina Charleston History. Page 2 of 18

3 Transcript Video 1 57:52 Timestamp 0:00 Speaker Millicent E. Brown: Vanessa Jackson: Millicent E. Brown: Content Ok. I m Millicent Brown from Charleston, South Carolina. I am about to turn 57 years old. I was born in Charleston into an activist household with parent who were both very supportive of efforts for change within the Black community. My father J. Arthur Brown was a local NAACP leader and went on after many years to become after being president of the NAACP in Charleston went on to become for several years the president of the state branch or state conference rather of the NAACP. I always suggested my role in history if you will is a result of two things I had absolutely nothing to do with. 1) The household to which I was born and the time that I was born which was Just that mid century era in terms of the crisis of race relations in this country and as a result largely of the war and the returning of Blacks to the United States Black soldiers just the invigoration to the on going fight for first class citizenship. So much of that was really just heating up right when I was seven, eight years of age age of consciousness if you will. It s no surprise that because of my father s and my mother s involvement that our family took the lead in several of the desegregation attempts that were made for public facilities in Charleston. Can you talk a little about that because there are several efforts of course, school desegregation being one of them. Can you talk a little about the other efforts? Yeah. Understanding now, you re talking about a totally Jim Crow society so everything from public accommodations with lunch counters were apart of that efforts; the municipal golf course where Blacks could not play golf. Charleston is a seacoast city and my family actually had property and my grandmother lived five minutes away from a beach, but yet the only beach that I ve ever visited was the Black beach near Myrtle Beach, which was an hour and a half to two hours away. I was, I think, twenty something years before I ever touched the water in Folly Beach, which is five minutes from my house. Page 3 of 18

4 3:25 So every aspect of life being segregated meant that bit by bit there had to be some effort made to desegregate lunch counters, desegregate parks, desegregate beaches, golf courses, tennis courts, swimming pools. And all of these things were basically being attacked up to 1964 on a one by one basis. So my father, who had ever since 1955, run for the state House of Representatives with two other Black men and of course have lost, but ever since then there were these efforts being made to just chip, chip, chip, chip away. Soon after the Brown decision was passed in 54, my parents immediately joined in with several others and began that arduous process of trying to get my older sister Minerva to be transferred to be transferred into a formerly all white school well they were all white schools at that point trying to make real the Brown decision. South Carolina was like most of the nation, especially in the south, that that supreme court decision really was ignored. Even after Brown 2 was decided the next year in 1955 that said, All deliberate speed, communities have to start paying attention to Brown. But nobodies doing it and so the way many communities did it was, ok, you have this decision. You had to create a legal paper path showing that you were trying to go through the local remedies in order to get into the school. That usually started with a request for transfer. So they tried to get the papers for my sister to transfer into the white school and were denied. They were out; come back another time or We ll mail it to you and that went on for a long time. The transfer request being denied or even to get the application for request being denied then lead to actually filing a suit against the school board the local school board. This is being done, of course, with the guidance and advice of the NAACP. Then a case is being created after there is enough documentation to show that the school board is not cooperating. The case Minerva Brown vs. School Board District 20 gets created. I believe there were eleven original plaintiffs, but it was Minerva Brown et.al. My sister had that case in her name for approximately three years and she became a rising senior in high school. A ploy that was used all over the south was once a plaintiff in a court case got to an age where transfer was not reasonable the case was then deemed moot and it was thrown out, which meant you had to start with another plaintiff and start the process all over again. Page 4 of 18

5 7:45 When Minerva case was about to be thrown out and this was probably 60 by this time this thing has just been dragging through all these different contortions. Someone who I unfortunately do not know my father didn t share the name with me before he died someone downtown in the office at the courthouse managed to shift Minerva Brown name to Millicent Brown. My father always called me his ace up his sleeve, because by being able to change the name having this other daughter the case was continued. It didn t get thrown out as has been the practice before. So when the school board discovered the change, they then went to court to try and dismiss the case. They were unsuccessful. Fortunately we re talking 1960 or so fortunately by that time the federal courts had seen this kind of ploy being utilized and they had made some other ruling. I m sorry I don t remember right now what jurisdiction we re talking about, but it did have a federal effect, a national effect. That was if the case was bound to have the same results, the local boards could no longer dismiss the case just because the name of the plaintiff had changed. With that, they were denied the opportunity to dismiss my case and Millicent Brown et.al then became the name of the case that ultimately would be the first to desegregate public schools in South Carolina Charleston was the lead. My case stayed in my name until So it still languished. It was never at any kind of immediate response, but finally the judge ruled in August of My family and I were vacationing at the Black beach right outside Savannah called Collier s Beach. We had been invited to some people who had a beach house. We were there when we picked up the newspaper and it was on the front page that the ruling had come through by Judge Robert Martin. Those schools and those plaintiffs so named in the Millicent Brown et.al. case were to be allowed into the schools. Literally within a few weeks what happened was, the judge said, schools were about to open it would be chaotic to allow just any and everybody to transfer. So it was decided that only the plaintiffs in this suit could go into the schools the first year and that the following school year there was to be what everybody affectionately knows as freedom of choice. Another ploy because that never worked well either. But nonetheless the first year it was now instead of eleven I believe there were nine of us. Most of those plaintiffs were youngsters that went into the lower grades. Two of us went into the one school. Jackie Ford and I went into Rivers High School and of course the attention was on me because the case was in my name. Page 5 of 18

6 12:20 But often overlooked not only is who went me that day but also a young man who went to Charleston High and he went alone, his name was Ralph Dawson. Ralph did not last the whole year. He was a senior and he had a very rough time and he dropped out. But Jackie and I stayed. Tell me just to get context how large was the high school? You had two young Black women going tell me how large. Our school was somewhat smaller than Charleston High. I think there were probably as many as a couple, no. I m not sure of it. I really don t know. I would think maybe eight hundred students. [statement later corrected by Brown to 800 students] Two in a sea of eight hundred? Oh yeah, yeah. I really don t know. Charleston High was even larger. Rivers was kind of a select school. Possibly because it was the school that almost all of the Jewish parents sent their children to. There were a number of Jewish merchants and they were propertied and a money class. So Rivers was somewhat a higher echelon, if you would, as compared to Charleston High, which simply served all of the white students on the peninsula. So, we go into these schools Jackie has some younger sisters who go into the middle and elementary schools and there were some other kids, but other than Ralph, Jackie and I are the older ones. And there is then another complexity that has always been a problem for me. Jackie went into the eighth grade and I went into the tenth. We did not have anything in common. We didn t know each other very well. Our fathers were both community activist, but I don t even think I knew who Jackie Ford was prior to that day. She was an eighth grader. Tenth graders don t talk to eighth graders. That s just, you know, I have had one year of high school and I m now a sophomore. I have issues about my socializing and I m now about to be allowed to date. My world is very different from a sub-freshman. So it was very difficult for me to see this connection with Jackie. Adding to the fact that we were on different tracks, we didn t have lunch together. We didn t have any classes together. And I always knew she was going through it alone and I was going through it alone. Page 6 of 18

7 15:40 For many years after this experience I was troubled by why I, as the older one, was not more concerned or supportive of her. I thought how selfish I must have been not to look after her a little bit better. Not that she ever expressed it and of course whenever I saw her in the halls I talked to her, but somehow that age difference just separated us. Can you talk about that a little bit more because part of it is that you are a child of an activist family, and activist yourself. You re also a tenth grade girl whose world is starting to open up. Can you talk about being this young black tenth grade girl coming into this environment and trying to be a teenager and do this work of desegregation. Well it s what caused most of the angst. I was fortified by a supportive family and certainly a community of people adults who were there behind me. I then found out that the group of people my age that I had thought would be my biggest backers, turned out not to be as consistent with that as I had thought. I got through that first year knowing that if I could get through this first one, some of my friends are coming over the next year. Because of the court ruling, they couldn t the first year. Well my world dropped out then they were allowed to transfer or at least apply to transfer. Several of my best friends got picked up by private schools up north who those schools were just on a rampage to identify bright black students in the south. So three or four of my best friends who I thought were going to follow me left town totally and I felt betrayed by them but also happy for them. But then that left some more friends and they were not interested. They were juniors. People had already come committed to the Black high school and folks didn t want to give up that popularity and their status and things that there are fun about being a high schooler. So people who had said they want to come changed their minds and I was not followed by any of my good friends. Then there was the kind of concern that I tried to keep my ties with the Black school and I went and did my thing during the day. I was Millicent Brown representative of the race during the day, but looking forward to the after school hours. And I did have a group of friends, three or four, that just stuck with me and I would rush home from school and get on my porch, because I lived right in the pathway for them to come home. Page 7 of 18

8 19:35 Recording Break Lots of times I would try to be home early enough that when they passed by they would share with me what had gone on in school and that was very important but it was different. After a while filling me in just didn t appeal to people as much. So my little circle of support just got smaller, and smaller, and smaller, and it got stronger. The people who were with me and behind me were really there for me, but I was just disillusioned because I thought I was representing all of us. The thing that really hit home was during my first year I had a boyfriend that was playing basketball at the all Black school so I went to see him play in a game and I got taunted at the basketball game by girls asking me, What are you doing here? You knew you always wanted to be white anyway. They did not in anyway seem to appreciate what this was all about. 20:59 So that was just a rude awakening to me. Do you mind if we talk a little bit more about that? I think the thing that stands out when you talk about the loss of innocence and memory wise, tell me about going to these games and being taunted did to you and how it affect your relationship with the Black community. Well it was one event and I think in hindsight I probably blown it way out of proportion. Maybe there were other times when I was more embraced I just don t remember them. I remember that basketball game. I remember the girl sitting behind me and I remember feeling that this was the defining moment that I was no longer welcome in my Black community. I had issues anyway. I mean I was a member of yes an activist but a balance that my parents had in my family was we were also apart of the Black middle class. So I was a Jack & Jiller; my mother was a LINK and a Delta; my dad was a Que. So I m apart of that whatever Black middle class phenomenon. So I already had issues about skin color; acceptance in the broader Black community and it s ongoing dilemmas. Page 8 of 18

9 22:53 Complexities. And complexities. It wasn t gone be smooth sailing into this large Black universe in high school anyway. So the accusations of wanting to be white and those people who didn t possibly weren t even involved in any of the sit-ins or whatever it was. This whole part of the community that didn t know and or respect what we were doing was devastating to me on many different fronts. It s a time of adolescence and just adjusting and wondering if my bra size will ever get any bigger; and will I be asked on a date; just all that stuff that goes into being 15. I m surrounded by people I know and who love me, but I have to still even if I hadn t gone to Rivers I still had to step out into the broader Black universe. So it was touch and go for me and that basketball game experience just kind of told me how unwelcome I was. For the rest of my time in high school my world was really very narrow. It was go to school, which was not particularly exciting. That seems to be the understatement of the year. Yeah. I go to school and I made it through those three years and live for after school, live for after school. I didn t step out much. I really was cautious. Which students I was around which Black students I was around. Because? Because I really couldn t handle any more rejection. But the complexity of this existence because I m learning now that I m having to learn how to live in two worlds. But the complexity within the Black community is still this color class thing and I am too much of my father s child to be comfortable with elitism. While that s a community that embraced me that s not a community that I m all that comfortable with because I ve been on the front lines. My political development while not full blown we are about something other than whether you re light skinned and whether or not you re daddy is a doctor. So I can t get full comfort retreating to that group even though I would be well accepted there. But I m not ready to just say I m one of the people because the people are telling me, Unh uh, you went to that white school because you want to be white and just a lot of convoluted messages coming from everywhere. Page 9 of 18

10 26:43 I just went inside a lot and had a solid few who were certainly were with me and I ll never discredit that support. But I became afraid I think of what it is that Black people think about me in a way that I wasn t conscious of before. Partially I really believe that discomfort stings today, stings today. How does it manifest today? My family wants to say that s why in the two failed marriages and umpteen other relationships most of the men in my life have always been very dark. They see that as a manifestation of my need to relate to the people. I don t agree and I really don t think that but it s interesting. Is that a way of me wanting to relate to the community and prove to people that I m not trying to be white? I don t know. I don t want to over do in my own mind my need to relate. I ve had more outside people analyze it that way and I m not ready, totally, to accept it because I became more and more involved politically. I went from high school to college a couple of colleges and this is when I move away from my solid passive resistance NAACP indoctrination into the world of Black Power and Malcolm and all of the world that gets opened up by the late Sixties. I see it as a time of my just becoming more and more astute about what it means to be of color in this country and this world. Some would say I was driven by the need to belong to the Black community. I just have problems being sure what the motives were. I see myself as someone who has always responded to political commitment and I want to think it is that more than I m still working out some craziness in my head about being rejected. Well in part of it also for all of us wherever where at belonging is critical for us. That s just a human need. There s nothing pathological about wanting to belong. The other piece what you can consider talking a little about is being in this place negotiating the Black community and this is a fifteen year old doing all these negotiations. But I m very curious about you re clear about the identity of an activist very early on and so it wasn t you re unconscious about any of this stuff. But the day to day. Page 10 of 18

11 30:13 When you have Thurgood Marshall sitting at your dining room table, and Ruby Hurley and Gloster Current, and you ve met Rosa Parks and you ve been apart of the Highlander experience even when you re eight and nine years old. Recording Break 32:19 How d that shape you? Well the point is that I ve always understood a commitment to the issues of race and ultimately class. But for many, many, years the issues of race in this country and it is what defines me til this day. Back in the day they used to call people like us a race woman or a race man. That s what they called it in the forties and fifties. When I m coming along they called me a militant. Militant Millicent is a nickname that has stuck with me city after city after city. Folks just latched on to it. I just think that s because of my early indoctrination and introduction to what America is all about. So it s a key part of who I am. Let me ask you, you talked before about sort of what it was like being a Black woman [inaudible], what its relations have been, and your identity formations in school. We ve talked about your college experience, when you got your records, and leadership. Do you mind talking about that? Yeah. For three years that I was at Rivers they re just sort of a blur in a way. It s just sort of an assortment of memories and recollections. After a while some of the hostilities wore down and they got use to seeing me. What I was saying that is it s just an assortment of memories all of which were terrible. Let me go on record now in saying that one thing that my experience at Rivers made very clear to me as I went on in later years to become a historian and chronicler in some way of these experiences my own and those of others is that I realize how willing people are to embrace the tragedies of the Civil Rights movement. When people got killed, when people got bombed, when the school desegregation was met with violence it seemed like that s what people want to record as the movement. I even have been kind of passed over or people kind of shrugged their shoulders at some of my experiences because they were thought to not be that bad, not be that bad. Page 11 of 18

12 33:38 They didn t bomb your school. You didn t meet the kind of resistance that Central High did in Little Rock so therefore people make assumptions that then it was just fine. So I look back on my experiences and I realize that it was just an ongoing kind of marginalization. Just really in a Netherland kind of existence. And of course I got through it. My feelings were hurt a lot of the times. I had to wait on the corner and wait for my mother to pick me up and the kids would come by and make sure to splash the water on me as they sped off. To make sure to not walk with me in the hallways; to not sit with me and then after a year or so people did sit with me and talk. They accepted some things, but they never wanted to be seen walking with you coming out of the assembly. It was like as soon as you started thinking folks were kind of cool with you then something would happen and you d be reminded that, no, you re not really. I had the grades to be in the honor society but they voted not to let me in. You know, just stuff. One thing that got to me, years later I had an occasion to look back on my high school transcript, and looked at the comments that my homeroom teacher that had been my homeroom teacher for three years what kind of assessment she had made about me and what she had been sharing when colleges asked for comments about this applicant. I read things like displayed no leadership capacity and was not outstanding in terms of extra-curricular activities. And I could not believe not one word was in the record that put it in context or in some way said, oh by the way, she was one of the first Black kids. The students did not accept her. She was ostracized. I mean nothing like that. Couldn t join clubs because they wouldn t let her. Because they wouldn t let her or if I was just bold enough I insisted on joining the French club because the French teacher was kind of cool and I was kind of good at French so I joined the French Club. So that was one credit to my name, but nothing said about the fact that they had nothing to do with it. They didn t put me out, but they never interacted with me or anything. It was just the feeling of such betrayal that, Ok, I did this but that you wouldn t even have the decency to put it on my record. I don t know that it mattered or I got turned down from any colleges as a result of it, but it was just finding this out years later that, again, it s almost like the kids in the gym. Page 12 of 18

13 37:20 It was that sense of somebody s not understanding what this is all about and it was very disconcerting for me. You re very precise in language too, when you say disconcerting, I realize how much of a precisely, what does that feel like to see that all those years later? Knowing the context, knowing what it was like day by day, and what you lost to be there. Yes, I was older when that happened, I don t know how much older I was probably in my 20 s I don t know I might have even been in my 30 s when I actually saw it and my first response was anger. It was how dare these people misrepresent those three years of my life. How dare they? Followed immediately by just a sense of just sadness. Like if I look at the whole experience mostly it s sort of just sadness. I became a glutton for punishment. Although I was doing the Rivers thing during the day, I was determined like my mother said to be bigger. I was determined that I was going to still try to evolve as a young person develop interests. So I became the first Black to dance with the Charleston Ballet Company. I loved to dance and I had been a dancer all through my youth. So I said, Heck, I ve done it one time, I ll do it again. I enjoyed it. The artistic community was much more embracing. I was okay, I wasn t great, but I was okay. They worked with me and it was nice. But I hurt my ankle and I couldn t continue the dance lessons so I became the first Black to join the Dock Street Theatre Theatrical School. Here we go again. It was like after a while it was just go for the experience and I loved theatre and it was a way of finding some experiences that I didn t have access to in the Black community even after school there was no Black theatre company or whatever. So I m just finding the world and I actually ended up, ultimately, being a theatre major for a short time. I just kind of went on trying to develop Millicent outside of the networks that would normally have been there for me. Because I wasn t going to be in anyone s senior class play. You see. How were your parents talking to you, not just about the activism part, but as daughter trying to come into womanhood? Page 13 of 18

14 40:36 Momma is continuing to say to me, Honey, just be bigger people than them. It s the best you can do. I knew that she was pained at my pain, but she just said be bigger, be bigger. And I have to admit, I tease her about it but there were some moments when I came home and said, I m as big as I can be! I cannot get any bigger! But the offshoot was there was not an opening up for me to have anger. I was supposed to get through this by taking the higher moral ground. So I did not emote. I didn t come home I did on one or two occasions but for the three years I didn t come home saying, You know them sicknen folks? You know what they did? I never let it be anger because that s not apart of my mother and that s not apart of my family. My father and I got into it one time when I said, Please let me go back to the Black school. Please let me go back. And he said, No, you have to stick with it. Somebody s got to do it. I would dry my tears and I d get over it and I actually agreed. I mean, again, the way to get through it was to feel like you were representing the race so somebody had to do it. It was me, fine. But we did not have to talk what I was going through. Daddy, I think wanted to not hear. I don t think my father could have sat down with me on a day to day basis and heard how I was being treated. Why do you say that? Because I don t think he would ve known what to do with it. So he d say, How was your day? And I don t know that this was a selfishness on his part, I just know this was history making. So his head was in that and I don t know if he could open up to any reality of what was going on. Now when those guys our number one day when those guys splashed me with the mud as I stood on the corner I knew who they were and my father got on the phone and he called their fathers, because he knew them. That particular crowd didn t bother me anymore. So it s not that he was ignoring but he was that kind of person and he always appealed to people s humanity and morality. He just kept it on the up and up, but anger was never on a part of it. What happened was my senior year all of this kind of came crashing down and inward. I started developing systems and they thought I had a heart condition because I couldn t breath. I couldn t walk five feet without just being totally out of breath. So I started going to some doctors and some specialist and we found out that I had a nervous condition. Page 14 of 18

15 44:22 The nerves in my chest had simply just gripped and they were stopping me from breathing. That was for all of us a realization of what the three years have done to me. I had never known or been encouraged to just let this stuff out. I was always being bigger. I was always representing the race. I was always on the up and up. My senior year a guy started messing with me, taunting me in class, mostly just to be jovial. I mean I m not even sure it s about me being black. I really don t know because he was kind of a nice guy. We were kind of friends in a way. But he hit me on the back, kind of jokingly, but it hurt and I ran out of the room and I went to the bathroom and I threw up. I came back and I grabbed I don t know where the teacher was she was gone for some length of time. I came back and I grabbed a yardstick you know, which was very thin and I said, Uh huh, uh huh, you want to mess with somebody? And I smacked it over his back and I broke it. Now it didn t hurt him, but it was the only time I had ever retaliated. I felt the freedom that I can t even begin to express. I can remember feeling this was my senior year I had done something to let it go. I don t know if I did anything else yeah I did. I did one other thing. But it was that last year, after being in the hospital for this nerve condition, it dawned on me finally. How long were you in the hospital? You said in the hospital. You were hospitalized. I was hospitalized. For how long? Probably three or four days. They were running tests. They had to figure out why I couldn t breathe. Why I was exhibiting signs of a heart condition. But it was the end of my senior year when I kind of understood that anger was not an inappropriate (thing) and that was like life saving to me. But of course then I go to college and I hook up with the most militant Black folks in Boston and there she wrote. I mean Millicent s never been the same ever since. I even had a friend from those three years one girl who would remain friends until her death in 2004 and we have kept touch over the years. She couldn t believe who I had become. She said, I don t remember you talking this much. I said, I didn t! She just couldn t believe my political stances and everything, which she appreciated, but I was a different person. Page 15 of 18

16 48:00 So the Millicent of those three years in high school is not the Millicent that most people who knew me, then. Especially white; they just saw a little bit of me. Where d you go to college? I first went to Boston because I told my family all of my family including my two older sisters had gone to Historically Black Colleges and I was destined, probably, to have gone as well I needed to get out of the South. I had decided that these problems were of the South. I said, I m getting the heck out of dodge. So I m going to go North where things where different and I don t put up with crap I had to put up with for three year. And where do I go? Boston. When? Right at the height of the Louise Day Hicks and the Boston Bussing Controversy. So it s like I get to college and the first day of school I mean the first day my parents drop me off they leave and my suitemate, who was from Maine, comes to me and smiles. We re talking and I introduce myself, I m frightened, I m in Boston, my parents are gone and I don t know what to expect and I m again in an all white setting. She said, Is it true Black folks have tails? And I just crumbled. I go to the phone trying to catch my parents and I said, Millicent you have just made the worst mistake. I just had looked to Boston and the North as freedom to me like most kids in the South did. And to run to it as soon as I could, I was devastated, but I hung out there. I stayed but my nerve condition came back and I just had issues. I don t know. It just went on and on and I stayed. I stayed a year and a half and then I transferred and I m, again, I m evolving politically and I know I want to be at an all Black school. There aint no question about it. Irony is I go to Spelman right in to the heart of the most bourgeois, middle class, anti-progressive community. I realize it s not happening there either, but I do identify a group of people. I dropout of school and I join SNCC. For five years I don t have anything to do with higher-ed, because I can t find a place that works for me. I can t fit into the white schools and I cannot fit into the Black schools. So it is an ongoing of what had started many years ago. Whoever I am at 57, the feelings of marginalization, are not as severe these last few years, but they re there. The discomfort with identifying myself with Blacks who aren t progressive. Page 16 of 18

17 51:37 It aint about whether I m Black or not it s that I can t stand being around people who aren t progressive and I m certainly not going to be embraced or be embracing of all white environment either. Because I m too outspoken and I m too aware of my political stances and if you don t understand what white privilege is I don t want to be around you either. So my sense of not having a specific community at this point in my life isn t driven by a sense of loss. It s really of power. It s a whole bunch of people I don t agree with. You re selective about where? I m real selective where I rest my head and now I m very open and literally some of my best friends are white because they represent thinking that I m more in tune with. I have many dear Black friends at the same time, but it s less about the race thing now and getting to about what their thought processes are. The Rivers years did take me to a place that I m still defining; they sured me up. They made me understand that you can survive when people don t like you. You can achieve when they don t want you. It just got me ready for the hard knocks of life. It s nothing but in retrospect an important valuable part of my growth. Tough as it was. The piece that I kind of want to--when you think about what s left when you re in the witnessing process--would you--what would be helpful for you for ways for people to acknowledge what that looks like, being a race woman-- how would you like-- I think I have had enough credit given to me personally. I m done with it now. I m done with it. I feel the yet undone work for those have not gotten the recognition. The recognition not just as a historical event, but as the emotional, and psychological cost to be on the front line of change in this country. How that comes about, I don t think a plaque will do it, I just think some major articulation even if you think integration was wrong it s not about that. Even if you think it took us down a road from which we seemingly can t seem to return. Yes we ve lost things, but I just want folks to acknowledge that children lost their childhood. That is as much a sacrifice and a contribution to the movement as all the many, many other ramifications. That is just something that I hope to begin to think through better. Page 17 of 18

18 56:09 End Recording 57:52 How? What it would look like. It probably isn t the same for everyone, but first it s an acknowledgement and it is a thank you. It is a thank you to a generation. That s what it is. A generation that went in there first, put up with the crap, and you did this for all of us. That is just something I care about happening very much. I am concerned that unless it s tragic, unless it s tragic, death, violence, then people assume, it wasn t nothin. It just hurts me so that people forget the vulnerability and then get on with it I want people to be able in talking with others as I ve done all my life we find each other. We just want to talk it through. We want to have a conversation that just says, lets just finally get this stuff out bout how we really felt about those folks. Then get on with our lives, but I think it s important that we somehow offer that possibility for that to happen. Page 18 of 18

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