Episode 57 Hanshi Ron Martin whistlekickmartialartsradio.com

Transcription

1 What's going on, everybody? It's episode 57 of whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, the only place to hear the best stories from the best martial artists like today's guest, Hanshi Ron Martin. I'm the founder here at whistlekick but listeners know me better as the host. My name is Jeremy Lesniak. whistlekick, in case you don't know, makes the world's best sparring gear as well as great apparel and accessories all for practitioners of the traditional martial arts. I'd like to welcome our new listeners and thank all of you returning fans. If you're not familiar with our products, just check out everything we make like our shin guards. They curve better to your shin than other foam guards and they don't smell like those cloth guards. If you want the most comfortable, durable shin protection you can get, these are what you want. You can check out our shin guards and the rest of what we offer at whistlekick.com. If you want to check out our other podcast episodes or show notes, those are at whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. And while you're on our website, go ahead and sign up for the newsletter. We offer great content to subscribers and it's the only place to find out about upcoming guest for the show. Now, let's move on to the episode. It's episode 57 and I'm talking to one of the most prolific Karate fighters of the seventies, Hanshi Ron Martin. The list of Hanshi Martin's accolades reads like a list of competitions from the seventies. It's hard to imagine that there were too many competitions he wasn't at and most likely winning. As the captain of the first US Karate team, Hanshi Martin traveled the world with some incredible martial artists on a tour where they returned undefeated. That kind of experience leaves a man with some great stories and we get to hear quite a few of them in this episode so listen and enjoy. So listen and enjoy. Hanshi Martin, welcome to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio Ron Thank you. I'm glad to be here. Martin: Glad to have you here. Now, anybody who read martial arts magazines back in the seventies knows who you are but I don't know how many of those we have listening. So why don't you go back to the beginning? Tell us how you got started in the martial arts. Sure. The reason is, there's not many left from that time. In 1963, I turned 19 years old in June 25th and it was the same day that I was inducted into the Air Force. So when I got the basic training, as what would have it, my roommate, my bunkmate, was from Hawaii. And he was of small stature maybe 5'6"-5'7", pounds and his name was Steve Kazil and I came from Boston. I grew up in Boston. I moved to Pennsylvania in the middle of 70s. And I thought I was kind of tough being from the city and I was given him some grief and he looked me right in the eye and he said, why do you think you're tough? And I gave one of the most stupid answers I ever gave in my life. I told him, yes. And the next think I know, I was

2 looking at the ceiling. Now, he hit me at least three times - I was asleep for the rest of it. And when I got up I asked him what that was. It was just blinding. And he told me that he was a 3rd degree black belt in Goju-Ryu Karate-do which I didn't know anything about. But I knew I really wanted to do it. And I asked him to teach me right then and he said no, absolutely not. And I said, why not? He said, you're a bully and you have a bad attitude. And I thought about it and me though you know he's right on both 04:01 And he explained about the 04:03, about the 04:05 part of what he did about how it's only used to protect yourself and to protect weaker people. And that was a code that I thought I could buy into. So I bugged him for about two weeks and finally, he relented and he started to teach me. And we worked together for two years and I didn't understand at that time that most people in the country were playing or training two nights a week, maybe an hour and a half, two hours, each night. We've trained three hours before duty and four hours after duty. And I never had any trouble sleeping. Then we've got separated and I had to train myself but I went all over the world. Okinawa, Japan; when I was in Vietnam, I trained with the Republic of Korea 04:54Taekwondo so I got a good taste of a lot of different things. Okay, that's a little different. I mean, we've had plenty of people on the show who got started during their time in the military and of course I think there are a lot of people that would say it was because of our foreign interests that the martial arts came to the United States. But you know -- I agree with that. Okay, good. As you bounced around, you just said you trained in some different arts. So what was it that kept you in, it's Goju that you ultimately pursued, right? Yes, yes. Okay. So what was it about Goju? Well there were some people that do just the style and then there's a thing called the system, and every style doesn't have a system. And a system has to do with a chronological logical way of learning. Now

3 Chojun Miyagi who created Goju felt that it was difficult 06:14 to learn Karate without making it hard for the student. Now way back in the day, there wasn't really teaching. Learning consisted of the head guy standing in front of the dojo and workout and everybody else try to copy him - that was it. So if you could mimic really well or if you're a natural athlete, you could get really, really good. And if you weren't one of those kind of people, you had no chance. So what he did is he broke it down so that you'll first learn your blocks, strikes and kicks from a standing position. Then the next thing that he would teach you is how to do those same blocks, strikes and kicks, you know, straight line stepping. And then from there, you would spar into what we would call the 07:11and in an age pattern. And you would learn how to do those techniques so that each time you learn something new, you already have over half of it that you could do. And 07:25 until when you learn your first kata, you could be pretty much talked through it by the instructor and at least remember the pattern. The system of it appealed to me that you had a foundation, you start to be building on the first floor; you didn't start building on fourth floor. So you're someone that appreciates structure, sounds like it? Yes. And you know, I'm sure we'll get more into this later but I'm gonna guess as you went on and as you taught, that structure was something that was pretty important in the way that you taught your students. Yes. It was really valuable because the people that helped the most were the people that needed the martial arts the most; the people that were insecure, that weren't coordinated, that didn't think much of themselves. So this is one of the ways to bring the list of the athletic people along and they could become outstanding not just average. And I had many international champions that started out with an absolutely no natural ability at all. Wow, that's great and I look forward to talking more about that. But as we always say here on Martial Arts Radio, we're big on stories. And I know with all of your international travel and competition and just your years in the arts, I'm sure you have a ton of great stories. But I'd like you to tell us your best one.

4 I thought about this a lot and you're right, it's because there was so many. But I think the thing that sticks out the most to me is when I was captain of the United Stated team in early And we went to Panama City, Panama with the Central and South American Championships and these were the best from all these countries. There was I think about 16 countries that gathered and there was black belt team, brown belt team, green belt team of five men and it was a three-day event and it was just unbelievable. There was a parade before it. It just was my first time in a huge international stage. And the night before... The first day they had kata, the second day they had team parting, and the last day would be individual. So the first night, they wanted the coach of the United States team, Chuck Merriman Hanshi, to run 10:13 And of course, me being his senior student, he asked me to assist him. So we were there and the previous... this tournament is held every two years, so the previous two tournaments, which would cover four years, the champion was the captain of the team from Colombia. So Merriman Hanshi decided to do the seminar on the front thrust kick and how to get the hip into the kick and towards straight, grab them on leg, rise and snap. Because that 10:51off the opponent. So while he was explaining it, this captain from Colombia kept interrupting him and telling him how that wouldn't work and that the snap kick 11:03 one of the greatest snap kick from my teacher. And of course, in those days, that just couldn't be allowed. So I stepped in front of my teacher as if to say hey, if you want to throw a kick to someone you have to throw it at me not him. And in the true traditional 11:21 tradition, and of course I'm French- Canadian, things got heated very rapidly. And it was so bad that they had to shut that seminar down. So fast forward, we have the kata day and then we have the team day and we took the team championship and we never fought Colombia, they got eliminated by somebody else. And then it comes the day for the individual championship and my name was called first. So I went into the ring and I think there really is such a thing as divine justice. Because the next thing that they called up into the right with me, my opponent, was the captain, the previous 2 time champion from Colombia. So while he's walking into the ring, I fully know exactly what he's gonna do. He's gonna show me that that snap kick is better. So the referee said start and he came at me with that snap kick then I just slid back a few inches and I did a rear leg front thrust kick. And I caught him in the abdomen and it really, it just was the timing, the distance, everything just came together, and he folded up. The top of his thighs were on the bottom of my leg and his chest was on the top of my leg. And I pulled the leg out and he fell to the ground. Now he still folded up so the medics come out, the doctor in the medics came out, they're trying to 13:08 away from this but I keep looking over my shoulder. And my teachers giving me the shrug of the shoulders like I told you not to do that. They gave him a shot, a muscle relaxer shot in the stomach and they still couldn't 13:32 and he's starting to turn blue. And there was almost 19,000 people in the arena and there wasn't a sound. There just wasn't a sound at all. And they gave him a second shot and then they 13:49 apart then he started to breathe. Now, in the meantime, all the judges are off to the side and I know what they're doing. They're discussing how it is that they can disqualify me. But in those days, if you couldn't continue, you lost. That was the rule. It didn't matter what happened. There were almost... There was a few rules but nobody paid attention to it - not the competitors and not the judges. So up on the stage was the guest for the day, a 10th Dan14:20 And he was watching all of this and the stage was about 30 yards from where the ring was. And he saw the referees and he knew what was gonna happen so he stood up and he walked very slowly across the stage to the steps. He walked down the steps, walk all the way across the gym to the ring and he never even went over to talk to the referees. He stood in the ring, held his hand up in my direction and said, he won which is full point. And then he said the Japanese word, winner. And he started

5 to walk out of the ring and he detoured over by me and he hit me in the thigh where I was kneeling with his foot. I looked up at him and he said, 15:10 And he walked slowly back up, sat down, and that's true powerism. They brought him on a stretcher to the hospital and he was never seen in Karate circles again ever. And what I really enjoyed most about it was that it didn't take years for Karma to come around. Yeah. Now was that your intention when he came in? Were you trying to end his career? I was gonna show him how good that front thrust kick was. Okay. And certainly anybody that has competed or even, you know, just working sparring, you know, that sometimes your opponent's momentum can add a little bit more to a technique than maybe you had intended, you know. If he was driving in on you the same time you had the timing your counter I didn't mean to kill him. I meant 16:09 of that. Sure. And what's funny, the next three rounds, the opponents didn't come into the ring. Really? They wouldn't fight you because of it? No. They're coaches wouldn't allow them to come in the ring.

6 So you must have had it in another fight that day? Yeah, it was. It was a great tournament. So yeah, I think I had five fights after the three who have folded. Wow. And I won the championship. And it's funny, I thought a Panamanian for the grand championship. He was from Panama but he spent months of his life in Texas. And everybody knows how good Texas back in the time. He was really, really good. And it was amazing to me that all those people in that arena are from Panama, I'm fighting a Panamanian and they're cheering for me. My teacher couldn't get over it either. Sensei Merriman said it's the most amazing thing he ever saw that they're not rooting for their hometown boy. Yeah. That's pretty impressive. Maybe they were - Is that okay for a story or...? That's a great story, yeah. And a lot of people alive that were there still. Yeah, yeah. I mean... I know the power of taking more so than giving it say that kick. I know what's it's like to be on the receiving end of a strong solid thrust front kick to the gut especially if you're charging in on a -

7 That was the best one I ever threw in my life. Sure. Well if there was a better one, the person probably, actually, would have died so... Sounds like a great kick. You said something that has come up as I've done research and put together episodes that some of our listeners that might now be aware of but you mentioned the fighters from that era from Texas being so good. Yes. And I don't know, you know I'm gonna guess at least half of our listeners aren't aware of that. Could you speak to that a little bit as someone who was around back then and worked with these people? Sure. The fighters from Texas and even in the Midwest was like Oklahoma or the lower Midwest, they were just... It wasn't just that they were good fighters - they were hard fighters. They fought hard. They were absolutely trying to take you out from the opening 18:47 And to give them credit, when you pluck them, they never whine, they never complain, and they weren t looking for the referee to disqualify anybody. It just was the way it was there. If you weren't prepared to have it be just about a real fight, you shouldn't go there to compete. But they were just as rough and tough and hit hard inn all the time they were looking to hit you hard. Yeah, and perhaps you could name some of the folks from that era? I'm sure a lot of people will recognize these names. 19:34 Fred Wren, I mean just... Not many people now will notice their names. They were fighting... We were fighting that rough and we had no hand pads, we had no foot pads, we had no helmet. And I never even owned a mouthpiece and never mind wore one. We did a very novel thing - we blocked.

8 Wow. It's amazing how effective a block can be as opposed to hitting it in the face. When they're really whacking it, you think about it a little more. If you're just getting the foam tap, why bother, you know? Right. There's actually a - And there was a severe penalty to be paid in pain for being hit. For sure. So we got a little bit of a glimpse into your, let's say, attitude approach to life as a young man when you started learning martial arts when that gentleman was kind enough to put you on your back and show you that there was something to learn that ultimately, you know, encouraged you to learn martial arts. But let's pretend that moment didn't happen and you never started to train. What do you think your life would have looked like? How would it have been different? By being in jail. Really? Yeah. The service helped somewhat but it was a combination of learning. Before you can discipline yourself and be self-disciplined, you have to accept discipline imposed by somebody else. So the structure of going to basic training and being in the military, the Air Force, really helped me. And to go along with that, the rules that are involved in you conduct in doing martial arts properly, really, really forged me into a human being that was really worth something. And I knew I was worth something. The better you can fight, the less need you'd feel to fight. It's when you're not sure if you can handle someone or not that

9 you really get it on. I finally learned that you don't fight when you want to fight; you fight when you have to fight. That's a great way to put it: you don't fight when you want to fight; you fight when you have to fight. And I think that sums up for a lot of us, our approach on the self-defense elements within the traditional martial arts. I mean that's always been my view of it. Do whatever you can to avoid, get out of it. And you know, for listeners that, listen, in order... Of course a few weeks ago, we had Dr. Terrence Webster-Doyle on who talked a lot about bullying and all the options for detouring out of that but yeah... What's the Karate Kid Mr. Miyagi says is: don't fight but if must fight, win. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You know, my teacher also taught me that... Back in that day in the ring, much more so than today, there were two things going on in the ring: there was a match and there was a fight. Now the match had to do with the points and a little bit of the rules and winning and moving on and becoming the grand champion. The other thing was that there was a fight going on in there, also. And sometimes, there came a time when you lose a guy who was trying to take the thread off. And you could only win one of those things. And he explained to me that when it comes to either you can win the match or you can win the fight, you must win the fight. Why? Well, because everybody that is on a fight that day and everybody that you're gonna fight for years to come are sitting there, waiting for their turn to fight and they're watching you. So if you let somebody abuse you and they end up hurting you and maybe they d get disqualified, you just... it's not the way to go 'cause they're all gonna start to intimidate you. So if you think someone out there's trying to take you

10 out, they all know they were trying to hurt you. And it serves a notice on everybody that that's not the way to go - not with me. And you eliminate problems down the road. Sure. Certainly, a different world on the competitive martial arts circuit back then than it is today. It was a lot better. It was more clear who won. That's a great point. Would you say there were a lot of injuries? I mean you told a great story about a pretty impressive injury but how common was that back then? Well there's a difference between being hurt and being injured. Okay. Being hurt happens all the time - not so much to me but so much to the others. And injury was less common but often. I mean, I don't... In those days, I was a going about 35, 40 tournaments a year and I can't remember too many that I went through where someone did get injured. And now injured, you can't train. Hurt, you're in pain but you can still train, you know. You can work through it. The problem was, almost everybody that fought their single-minded purpose in fight was what they were gonna do to their opponent. And their opponent was thinking the same exact thing - they're thinking about what they're gonna do to the other opponent. And neither one of them gave a 26:11 of thought that the first thing they need to do it prevent that opponent from doing what they want to do to me. So what we have is both guys getting hurt and sometimes, one would get injured. Did that make sense? It did, absolutely. Yeah, I can certainly see myself in that time and I absolutely, I think most of us know the difference between being hurt and the ability to continue training and injured where, you know, you gotta take a step back and just wait to heal up.

11 But the important thing is that to enter a fight not so much to win - you have to figure out a way not to lose. And the way you do that is to not get hit. If your opponent, whether in the street, in the ring, in the dojo, anywhere, if your opponent cannot hit you, the worst you could do is withdraw. I never wanted to be involved in a fight where I hit somebody five times really hard, they hit me four times really hard and call that a win. That's not a win, that's a decision. I don't want any decisions. I wanted to hit them and have them not hit me. Now, have all kinds of people tell me that that's impossible, that you have to accept being hit and I don't believe it. My experience and my record says that's not true. I had over 4,000 matches over a period of 12 or 13 years, and never, in any of them - any dojo fights, any team competitions or any place we went to have the dojos to do a seminar and taught people - that I don't have a black eye, a bloody nose or a fat lip - never. That is the record of mine that I am the most proud of. Now I got hit but I chose where I was not absolutely gonna get hit and that was the computer - my brain - that runs the weapons platform - my body. So what is it that you think is different about people's approach today versus your approach then with the, I don't want to say comfort the acceptance of being hit? Well they can only afford the acceptance and it only becomes a comfort, that is they get hit, that's not gonna be bad because they were 29:05are wearing foam. Now, it also makes the attacker not have to have his god risk position as kind of fist - they don't have to have as good a foot position when they're kicking. It lets them get away with a lot of things because if you do things improperly, even though you're attacking, you're the one that gets hurt and that's not the way it should be when you attack. It should be your opponent that gets hurt, not you. What do you think the Ron Martin of the 70s would do for a comeback sport if you were coming up today? Would you be point sparring? Would you be boxing? MMA? Well that depends. Knowing all the things that I knew from before? Yeah.

12 Yeah but you can't do that. Well let's pretend we have a time ma- I wouldn't know all those things. I mean if we... I mean the think the closest thing that happens today to what you grew up with is traditional Kyokushin fighting. Which is very close --- in the U.S. No, no. Not at all No? No, not even close. Okay. First of all, do you ever see them block? No.

13 You ever see them move their feet to evade? No, now. It's all front kicks and reverse punches. Do you ever see them punch each other in the head? No. So really, what's going on? They stand there like rock 30:58 robots and punch each other to the body until they can kick someone in the end. Now why you allow kicks to the head with those large muscles and not punches must be on me. But what they do, really, is none of my business. But you did ask me the question. I did, absolutely. I don't want know what you - But nobody thinks of those things when you're watching them do that. I mean there's a different but a slightly similar rule set in the WTF, World Taekwondo Federation, which is the Olympic style Taekwondo. There are kicks to the head but no punches to the head. How can you say that? They don't allow punching.

14 Which leads to keeping their hands in a really different place from what other martial arts practitioners do. They 32:05 You said it, not me. Well, you know 32:13 If I get a hate mail, I'm gonna forward it onto you. One of the advantages of being old is you can tell the truth. I have more behind me than in front of me. What can they do to me? Well I think after listening to this, they don't want to be in front of you. You might kick them. They just... I mean almost everything comes down to a rule set. Almost all the Karate people, they all think that the real 32:47 is somehow your training should be to prepare you for the awful, awful experience in the street against a street fight. Now I'll tell you, back in the day it was different than now, there was a lot more going on the street and more charges were brought or no legal ramifications. And the easiest fights that I ever had were in the street. I mean I was fighting the best fighters from the whole country, trained, and handled them without a problem. How is this 33:27 in the street gonna give me a problem? Because he has a mean attitude? I didn't pay any attention to the attitude. I fought much street fights, they'll attack us, you'll find out about attitude.

15 Yeah. So - Not the way you thought this was gonna go, huh, Jeremy? No! But you know what, I would be ---- I have so few expectations and you know, the listeners know and you know, I told you and I tell all the perspective guests, the questions are really simple because it allows for these kind of really fun tangents. If we had a list of questions that I send you, they were really specific and catered to who you are, I would feel compelled to stick to those questions. I'd rather wander. Yeah. And the best episodes that we have are a lot of wandered and it's great. We're coming up with stuff I wouldn't have dreamed that we would talk about and I'm guessing stuff you didn't even know we would talk about. No. And the problem is that from our history in the martial arts, is 90% oral and the 10% that's written down is written down with the author knowing that it's been written down forever. So they're much more careful in what they write than when they tell the true story of what happened thoroughly orally. Right. You know, there's not gonna be any proof of what they said. So one of the things you said is there any area that I want to stay away from? And I had answer - no, except I won't name people that I have defeated.

16 Sure. You know, I just don't think... I think there was enough of them at the time that they got handled. We don't need to be remnant in their face 40 years after the fight. Right, right. You're right. There's no need for that. And it's true; we're at a point now where, you know, what some people refer to as the Golden Era or the Blood and Guts Era of martial arts in the United Stated. It's folks like you who brought that forward. And even, you know, your instructor, Chuck Merriman, and his generation, they were really the first ones here in the U.S. that were doing all these. And we're starting to lose them. And because we don't have the penetration into society with martial arts other than certain people, I mean everything Bruce Lee ever did and touched is immortalized and, you know, we'll have some other folks like that, you know. Chuck Norris is certainly in the social sphere, but so many people that we've already lost, never were, so it's those stories. And that's one of the goals of this show, is to document by recording these discussions for hopefully eternity that we have record of these now, you know. I can't talk to everyone; I'll try. Right. But at least now, you know, we're gonna get an hour or so of you on "tape" for people to listen to, you know, a year from now or a hundred years from now. Now one of the problems that we have is that almost everybody in their pronouncements or their statements or their evaluation of an art or a place that the martial arts are or whether something that has efficacy in the street, is all based on their timeframe. When you talk about whether a point fighter would be able to take of themselves fighting in the street, if you're looking from 2010 the way point fighting is, you may be right. But if you go back to the 60s, the 70s and I'd even say up to '84 or '85, you would be terrible wrong. It was as close to a real fight as you could ever get point fighting and there was no protection, no pads, and the groin was a legal target area.

17 Really? It actually has a 38:15 Wow And the problem now is, they think it's something as an illegal target area, they don't have to protect it. Well let me tell you, if me getting kicked in the groin didn't square as a point, I'm still not letting them kick me in the groin. Yeah. It sounds so simple and logical but they don't look at it that way. And they get mad at the judge, they get mad at the opponent when really, it's up to you. You are the only one who can control whether you'd get hurt or injured. One of my instructor's favorite sayings when I was growing up, you know, I started Karate pretty young and I remember as a kid, you know, something would happen and you know, you're working with another kid and maybe you're not quite following the rules and somebody pops you, it's a little harder than it should, you know, we're not supposed to hit to the face, take a shot in the face, raise your hand, Sensei he hit me in the face. And you can probably guess what Sensei's answer always was. Yeah, why didn't you block? Yeah, block.

18 Absolutely. Learn the blocks You should never depend on your opponent to have control. You should never depend on a referee to protect you, or your Sensei. You need to protect yourself in that ring. Couldn't agree more and certainly, things have changed. You know, we have gear and just the whole approach is different but I think - Well the gear came about because of lawyers. Right. All the rules set now, that is. That makes it so easy and all these little taps are called points and not the strong points that we have back in the day. It's because there are liability issues now. If a tournament... And because liability is always determined by if a lawyer can prove negligence. If you were negligent, the injured party's gonna win no matter what their expectation should have been. Now I had a student way back, it was maybe '71, that got hurt in a dojo and they decided to sue and we went before the judge. And the judge heard the plainant's story. And the judge asked the plainant, you joined this Karate school, right? And the plainant said yes. And the judge said, what exactly did you think was gonna happen? Now, if they didn't have those foam pads on, the judge would entertain the plainant saying the guy that runs the dojo was the negligent 'cause he didn't insist that they wear protection.

19 And of course, you know, at whistlekick we make foam pads. I mean it's kind of the core of what we do but I'm the first to say that you need to train in different ways. And one of the places that I train at times actually, on their sparring nights, they don't wear head gear because the instructor has found that people are more respectful of their distance - they have better focus, they're not as likely to just connect with a stray hand or a stray foot because they don't have that safety net. So they're more 42:01 That's not really the important part of the dynamic of what's happening there. The really important part is the person that has the chance to get kicked in the head without a helmet is more aware of not letting the opponent hit them or kick them in the head because they don't a helmet on. You think it's more a defensive adjustment than an offense adjustment. Yes. Everybody knows, I'm telling you, people only think about offense and here's a case in point. Yeah. I'm gonna have to watch closer next time. Yeah. I cannot, I could never, nobody could ever calculate the amount of injuries, teeth, noses, eyes, ribs that would have been damaged or are injured for years and years and years without the protective equipment that they do now - that they have now. I mean it just would have been like a slaughter house. But the problem is, as they got protective equipment, they started accepting less and less and less of an impact to count as a point. The purpose of having the protective equipment is so that you could make a strong point without injuring or hurting your opponent. But somehow, they have introduced the safety equipment which is wonderful but they killed off on what they will demand a point must be. Yeah. And you know, I don't think there's any single answer. You know, everybody's looking for different things and I would love to see more diversity in the types of sparing events that show up at competitions, you know, some that allow more contact. And I think we all know that some events, certainly the adult black belt divisions, allow for more contact. But you know, I'd love to see a little more structure in 44:21

20 Yeah 44:19even matters, all true. Oh, I can only imagine. Even what people think are more contact. I mean it's just... Now back in the day, if I had to this equipment and they maintain what had to be a point, I would have done just as well with the equipment - just as well. It really doesn't affect the quality fighting that you've can do wearing. It doesn't diminish what you can do. The problem is what the sport has evolved to into accepting so little to be a point. Yes. I would agree. I would completely agree with that; movements that have no - I don't see any reason where people go out and fight and not have the available protective equipment that they have now because some of it, like whistlekick, is really, really good with equipment. Thank you. It doesn't 45:27 And it just... But we should demand that points not be soft just because they're wearing... I mean you'd think we should make them hit harder 'cause they have equipment on them but it went the wrong way. My rule, the line I've always drawn in the sand has been were this a "real" fight, would that technique be effective? Which of course, take out some of the fancier stuff and some of the tricky stuff that some fighters do, you know.

21 Well you know why they do that? Because it's really effective in a point setting. If you could score whether reverse punch and you could score with a front kick and you could score at a round kick and you win the championship, you're not inclined to be the winner of flying spinning kicks or any of that. So what happens is, the mindset of the people that are competing, since they're not scoring on a reverse punch and they're not scoring with a front kick or a round kick or a side kick, they infer that those techniques don't work. It never crosses their mind that they're doing them improperly. So if they're gonna lose, they have the feeling that they might as well lose fancy. Sure. You can't tell me... I mean I used to win whole tournaments just with a reverse punch. I believe that. And the people would be grumbling and moaning and be talking about all that you do is the reverse punch, all he can do is the reverse punch. And my teacher would tell them, you think you'd be able to stop them? I mean all of a sudden, there'd be no more grumbling. Right.

22 As long as I keep... I throw the pail in the well, I fill them up and there's water in the pail; I'm gonna throw the pail down into the well again, I pull it up; if there's water, I there it down again. If I pull it up and there's no water in it, I'm not throwing the pail down there again. Right. So if I'm using the technique and it's working, why am I gonna... am I gonna search to what finally won't work? Right. No, and you shouldn't and I completely agree with you there. Some of my past competitions, I didn't work from a very broad technique set. But you've mentioned your instructor, Hanshi Chuck Merriman, a couple of times. And I'd like to talk a little bit about him and some of the other people that you've trained with. Who would you say were the most influential instructors you ve had? Well Chuck Merriman Hanshi 48:37 just... He plucked me out of nowhere. I was struggling and taking thirds and fourths in competitions and really not doing very well. I had no mechanics, I didn't have the proper physics and muscle 48:58 into my techniques. And it was really hard for me to hit someone hard enough to get a point back then. But even so, even the champions were having a hard time hitting me. I was going in to overtime and when you get an overtime, the judges are sick of it already and they're gonna call anything. They're gonna call anything to get rid of this match. So I would lose in all of the kinds of champions when he spotted that. And he spotted my defensive ability and he thought to himself, you know, if this guy could ever punch and kick, they really have a problem. They took me in 49:37 and he told me no tournaments until we fix your techniques. So we trained and trained and I have to drive from North of Boston all the way down to Connecticut. So after about 6 months of this, he tells me, listen Ron, there's a tournament in Western Massachusetts, an all-black belt tournament, there's 200+ competing. I want you to enter. And you know, it took him a while to really teach me a lot of things but I said to him, am I ready? And he said, who's the teacher? Me or you? So I went. And I made up my mind, I was gonna do every single thing the way he taught me to do it. I was gonna find out once and for all, does this work or does it not? And I had 11 matches, I won the Grand Championship and I won every single match, believe or not, in about 15 to 20 seconds. Now that's not counting the stop time when the judges decided that I scored a point. And I was, again, all five judges calling the points. I knew I was onto something. And even the same guy as I was, life and death, trying to stay alive in the ring doesn't 51:00 So I knew what he had was a gold and I rode it all the way to the top and loved it.

23 What was he teaching you in that six months that transformed you so much? How to properly do a front kick; how to properly do a round kick; how to properly do a side kick; how to properly do a reverse punch; how to properly do back kick; how to do a Tai Sabaki, body management; how to use footwork; how to get off the X. That stuff happens on the X -- the X is where you're standing. Yeah. And how to not be going backwards. You gotta take an angle. If you're on a railroad track and you do everything right, that training's gonna kill you if you stayed there. If you're on a railroad track and you get off the railroad track, you could do everything you want except getting off the railroad track and nothing happens to you. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. It's so simple. People want to complicate fighting. Fighting comes down to two very simple things and they must be thought of and done in this order: don't get hit to be able to hit. So you can't use distance for blocking, sure you don't get hit but you can't hit them. Right. So you have to be able to your body management so that when you end up in a position where they can't hit you but you're close enough to hit them. That's all there is. Every time you do a block, you should hit them. You should never do more than one block in a row, ever. Every time you block, you need to get your opponent. Why not? Then you will never have to deal with a combination, ever. Wouldn't that be nice?

24 That would be great. Because the opponent has two choices - stop the attack or get hit. Who else did you have the opportunity to train with that helped you a lot? I'm seeing some other guy named Danny Pai from Connecticut, also. A lot of people were tugged in my quote and wanted me to... wanted to have sessions with me and teach me. But they really couldn't help me anymore than Sensei Merriman could. But they wanted to be able to take credit for it. That's human nature. Sure, sure. They wanted - Anybody that can make it through to a higher rank has some ego. Yeah. You know, we've talked a lot about that on this show. Yeah. And the thing is, how was that ego personified? Is it outgoing, bullying and get better than everybody? Or is it a satisfying thing that lives inside you and you let other people talk about the things that you've done? This is an exception, you know. There would be no reason to have me one here if I didn't talk about some of the things that I did.

25 Right. It would be a rather simple and probably boring conversation for people listening to it if you and I were just talking about I don't know, getting coffee or something. Usually, when I'm talking about it, I only list my major achievements. You know, the real big tournaments that I won. Like I was two-time National Champion of Canada. I was two-time Central American Champion, two-time South American Champion, the East Coast Champion. I did very well 54:59 At one time, I remember, I won every single state championship and that was way back on the 55:05 The 55:08 Karate Referees Association towards the 55:11 out of Rhode Islands started it. And I 55:15 championship and that's when my teacher moved me to fighting along these 55:20 and I did well there then he moved national. I did well there and then he said, we went international and I did well and he said, well I'm done. I said, what do you mean? He said, well I teach to come and get you beaten and I can't do it. So it just... He was wonderful to me. He didn't compliment me, he just told me, he said you know, he told me Ron, you know, whenever you're not training, somebody somewhere is. And when you meet, he's gonna kick your butt. So we didn't talk about the practice back then but in my head I was thinking oh no, they're not. And his point was that if he was... he knew I had talent and a gift and he was afraid that I could win so easy that I wouldn't have to work and eventually, would catch up to me. Because if somebody who is talented doesn't work out, it can be outworked by inferior talents and beat. After he told me that, I went from doing hundreds of things to doing things into thousands. 'Cause you didn't want to get beaten. I started running 21 miles a week even though I was winning in 30 seconds or less. I wanted to be ready when I met that guy that was gonna take me to distance. It was too late to start running when you're in a ring with a guy you know is gonna take his distance. Right. So I was prepared and knows other things that besides how to punch properly, kick properly, he just knew how to press my buttons. And he's got every single thing out of me; I mean it was just remarkable what a team we made. But without him, there's no way I'd ever 57:12 I d rather have to quit. It's rough losing the mat in that era.

26 It is. And that's high praise. I'm wondering if you remember, you know, as I'm hearing you talking about the person that would make you do the distance in a match, was there one that stood out? Did you have any particular rivals? Oh, yeah. I fought Bill "Superfoot" Wallace three times and lost all three times on him. I just didn't have 57:45 to beat him. But at that - Nobody did. No, that puts you in a club of about 10,000 people, Jeremy. Right. You know, I mean I just... There was nothing I could do. He was too fast and too good and a great guy. You know, so was Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris was a good guy, too. But 58:12 tell you, I lost to somebody --- I can hardly remember. I didn't lose much. Yeah. Did you ever fight Chuck Norris? What's that? Did you ever fight Chuck Norris?

27 No, we never drew each other. Okay. Another guy that was great from that era was Tayari Casel. He came from Chicago, his teacher told him you gotta go to New York and you gotta fight in the East Coast to test yourself. So he came all by himself; he was young. Him and I, we're like the young 58:51 coming up and they call those the giant pillars. 'cause we were beating a guy that was a little bit 58:59 you know, the big names at the time and we did well. And then I became really close friends. He was the first person I ever saw that fought his Kung Fu system in the ring. 'Cause back in the day, all the Kung Fu guys pretty much work Karate in the ring. And they have a good reason for it. Almost all the referees were Karate people. So they didn't understand what the Kung Fu guys were doing. And prior to 59:29 He did what he wanted and it was so good, he was called points. And then him and I were roommates on the two-world tours that we did that our59:39 produced, that we demonstrate it in all the big arenas 59:44, all over this country and all over the world. By luck, we got hooked up and roommates so I'm in the first and we get along so well that we stayed together on the second door and it's been 46, 45 years and I'm still in contact with him. Wow, that's great. It's fun to see all the friendships that came out of that era, all these people that to s someone might - I look up to folks of your generation, of course not just in age but in martial arts ability. And just to see you guys really are friends. Yeah, that - That means a lot to me and it's fun to see that the - The harder your fight, the more respect they have for you.

28 I can see that. And I have a legacy up there in the 1:00:39 obviously and I have a legacy here in Pennsylvania at the people in my downline, there's teachers that I brought up and teacher that they're teaching all the way down to the fifth, sixth generation - a real equality. You'll see that at the tournaments where 1:01:01 I do. I do. Three are so-called traditional learners. And people say traditional artists can't win and they seem to do pretty well. They do, they do. When I was coming up, my mother was my coach. And you know, we had this argument because she didn't want me to detour. And through all the flashy stuff and she'd said no, traditional can win. It just needs to be that much better. That's right. I agree with that. That's my mantra - you gotta be so much better than a second place, they can't make a mistake. That's right. So let's shift off, I mean I asked you for one story and I think we rolled through about 12 and that's great and I love that. This is my favorite part about this show - that you know, there are points where I don't even care if anyone's listening because I'm having the time of my life talking to you and hearing these stories. You never know, I don't need much prompting.

29 You don't, you don't. My job's easy. I just laugh and poke you for a little bit on something I want to know about and we'll just see if anybody else wants to know about it, you know, right? But - I hope it has the ring of truth to everybody to it. I think it does. I think it does. I mean, you know, certainly there's enough supporting documentation out there and we're gonna post a lot of that. You sent me some and there's others that I found and we'll be posting a lot of that over on the website whistlekickmartialartsradio.com, if you're a new listener. So you can see that and some of the show notes. Did you see those pictures I sent you of me fighting? Yeah. That was... I was fighting for the Grand Championship of Canada, National Championship then. Could you see attitude there? I wasn't looking at it for that but no. No, there's nothing that jumped out of me with that but - Take a look at it again and you'll get a - I will.

30 - a feel with the difference between today's fighters and the fighters of yesteryear. We took it a lot more serious. I can 1:03:29 I mean we were absolutely driven and I don't think they are today. It's more of a game but we were... I mean everything was on the line. Right. Well when there's an element of knowing that losing the match means you will probably also lose the fight - Yeah, that's right. - to go back to the distinction that you made, I think there's a little bit more motivation. Exactly. Are you there? I'm here. I'm here, I'm just... It's all sinking in. I'm taking it all in. I wanna switch gears a little --- I was just gonna say at one time, a big time person came up to my teacher, and I was within hearing distance, and he said to my teacher, Chuck Merriman Hanshi, wow, your student really, really loves to win. And my teacher said no, not any of that. And he said well he wins all the time. He said yeah but it isn't that he wants to win; he just hates losing.

31 Yeah. Different mindset. Absolutely. And it's one that I think a lot of us more modern martial artists could stand to think, reflect on, I think, a little bit. But as we - It works on the streets, too. Definitely, it works for the street. Don't lose. Don't worry about winning; don't lose. If you need to run, run. Absolutely. So as we start to wind down on the episode, there are some of the lighter questions here that we always ask at the end and I'm curious to your answers of. Uhh, movies. You know, you're such a traditionalist, I'm curious do you watch martial arts movies? Not a lot. I used to. Way back early on, we used to ride into Boston, there was a Chinese theater that it used to show them and there'd be subtitles that we used to watch. But I didn't even... The on that had the best production values and the best acting was Enter the Dragon. Without a doubt the most given answer to question is that movie.

32 Yeah, and the most anticipated you know, for a lot of reasons. Do you remember the first time you saw it? Oh, yeah. What was your impression? Because certainly you'd seen other Kung Fu films before then. What was it about Enter the Dragon that you liked? It was professional. Did you ever meet Bruce Lee? Yes, I did. What was that interaction like? Well, I was introduced to him and we said maybe three sentences and when he was out in California, they did that demonstration at Ed Parker's 1:06:45 tournament. I was about maybe 20, 30 feet away from him, watching him and I just think that people have him wrong. Everybody treats him like a God and that he's the best martial artist that ever lived and they're missing the real point. He's one of the best actors that ever lived. He made everybody think that what he did on the film was real life, that really happened. And

33 of course, in the movie industry, you get take 5, take 6, take 7 and the guys you're fighting don't get paid if they don't lose. Right. Good point. Now that exchange you're talking about, you're at Ed Parker's with the Long Beach Championships. Is that the exchange with Victor Moore - Grandmaster Moore that you're talking about? Yes. And of course, you know Grandmaster Moore, I'm sure. Yes. And for listeners, if you want to go back, if you want to hear Grandmaster Moore talk about that story, that's episode 20, I believe. I'll link to that in the show notes that we had him on. We spent a good amount of time unpacking that whole exchange and the controversy around it and why it's controversial and everything but - The list of legends that Victor Moore beat is unbelievable. Unbelievable. And there was a different time they really didn't want him to win, and he won anyway. I mean it was just remarkable. I mean when you read that list, you shake your head, you say how could this be possible? But like I was not as well known in this country as my peers, the people that I was "as good as". And the reason is because I chose and opted to compete internationally. And in the United States, there was about 30 or 40 martial art magazine and the rest of the world, there were 2. There was one in Europe and one for Central and South America in Spanish. So I was covered big there and I didn't get a lot. If it wasn't for Sensei Merrimen, I wouldn't have got the exposure that I did in this country. I mean I really 1:09:22 to whatever little pain I did get from those days.