The Axe Files - Ep. 173: Seth Moulton

Transcription

1 The Axe Files - Ep. 173: Seth Moulton Released September 18, 2017 [00:00:06] And now from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics and CNN The Axe Files with your host David Axelrod. Axelrod: [00:00:17] There are a few young politicians in Washington who have generated more buzz in a short period of time than Congressman Seth Moulton of Massachusetts a decorated Iraq war veteran who won a improbable primary campaign against an incumbent Democrat to go to Congress in And who lately has been part of a group of maverick young members of Congress who've been petitioning for change in leadership in the house. The story of his military service in his march to public offices is a compelling one. And so I wanted to sit down with him when he passed through Chicago the other day. Axelrod: [00:01:02] Seth Moulton great to be with you. Moulton: [00:01:04] David thank you for having me on and to be here. Axelrod: [00:01:07] So I can't remember the name of the show back in the 80s that launched Michael J. Fox where he played the conservative kid to the liberal parents who were shocked shocked and dismayed that their son was growing up as a as a conservative I know you didn't grow up as a conservative but there's a little of that in your family isn't there. Moulton: [00:01:30] Well I mean I think like most American families we have some different political perspectives around the dinner table. Axelrod: [00:01:35] Your folks were in the 60s they were out on the streets protesting the Vietnam War it's fair to say that they came from the sort of progressive end of that generation which was very much anti-war and kind of anti-establishment. Moulton: [00:01:53] That's right. I mean I think my mom would look at my dad and say he was a bit conservative for her. But they both went to Brown in the late 60s. I mean they were adamantly against the Vietnam War and they couldn't understand why I would have any interest in the military whatsoever. When I said that I wanted to serve. Axelrod: [00:02:11] Yeah. Well we knew it. And it was a surprise to them when you decided and probably to a lot of friends you grew up in. I would say a privileged situation and you went to many American standards I mean it was a small town. Moulton: [00:02:29] I was far from the richest kid but I wasn't the poorest kid either. Axelrod: [00:02:32] It was a nice town. We talked about this before as a marble Mass. My sister lived there for a while. Beautiful your sister Lou Waters interview. Moulton: [00:02:40] I didn't grow up with a water view. Axelrod: [00:02:43] But she into it. Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 1

2 Moulton: [00:02:46] You know look at it it's a perfectly nice town and. Axelrod: [00:02:50] You went to Andover. I mean I don't I'm not trying to make you out to. All I'm saying is. Moulton: [00:02:54] I'm a member of Congress still paying his college loans so your bottom line is I got tremendous opportunities. And I'm I think a product of the American dream right. I didn't grow up fabulously wealthy I didn't have a trust fund or anything like that. I didn't have family connections to politics. I think the first congressman that my parents met is me but I was able to run for office and earn people's votes. And now I'm a member of Congress. And in my thirties and trying to serve the country again. Axelrod: [00:03:27] Now I understood. And my point is this. You went to Andover you went to Harvard. These were not sort of the wellspring of people who then volunteered for military service. I mean that's one of the issues we have in our country is that. Moulton: [00:03:47] They used to be. Axelrod: [00:03:48] Yes. Moulton: [00:03:48] They used to be. It used to be that. I mean in World War One they dug trench lines on the lawn at Andover so the kids could practice could practice trench warfare. And they sent a small detachment of Andover kids who were too young to be allowed to be soldiers but they were ambulance drivers and they went over to France with a faculty member with a teacher and they weren't drawing trench lines there when you were at Andover but no I mean that's the thing is that I grew up in a generation where there are you know a lot of my parents friends parents in charge of our friends had been opposed to the Vietnam War or some of them even served in the military but essentially did so to avoid having to go to Vietnam. Of course there are some who were proud to serve there too but there was this general perception I think growing up that the military was not a place where you saw where you went to have a successful career shall we say. Axelrod: [00:04:51] So talk about your decision in the military and your experience at Harvard which is where I guess you came to the conclusion it wasn't like you were in high school saying I want to get through college so I can enlist. Something happened when you were at Harvard that turned you in that direction. Moulton: [00:05:13] You know my high school motto is non-city which is Latin for not for self. So it's a school that talks a lot about service but it was at Harvard where I think I was really influenced by one person in particular and that was the minister in the college church the Reverend Professor Peter J goves who was sort of a contradiction in terms. I mean here an American Baptist minister an African-American but also gay. He came out of the closet and he was one of the most popular preachers in America but also this real guidepost for the university someone that people of all faiths would turn to during times of moral crisis. And he became a very close mentor to me. He's been he's someone. Axelrod: [00:05:56] You met I'm playing the organ. Is that right. Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 2

3 Moulton: [00:05:59] I did. And so I was just sort of involved in music at the church and I and I went not out out of a religious obligation to go to church every Sunday but because I felt like listening to him listening to him made me a better person. And I think that it's good to have some some moral guideposts when you're in college. God knows I wasn't the perfect college kid and sometimes got myself into trouble. Axelrod: [00:06:23] And I think you want to be a perfect college kid. Moulton: [00:06:25] Well I certainly enjoyed not being the per kid but. Axelrod: [00:06:29] Nobody likes the perfect college kid. Not that I would know that from experience but that's what I that's what I believe. Moulton: [00:06:35] Having a little moral correction at the end of the Week on Sunday morning was sometimes a good thing after a long Saturday. Axelrod: [00:06:41] Now is getting up and SUNDAY MORNING. That's the heart. Moulton: [00:06:44] That was sometimes challenging yes. But he was a big influence on my life and he talked a lot about how you know you didn't even go to Harvard and have all this opportunity and you can believe in service and in fact you can even do things to support other people who serve but you really ought to go out yourself and find a way to give back. And I looked at my life and I said you know I've really never done all that much to serve I certainly never done anything to serve the country. And so I looked at different options I looked at options that my parents would have preferred like serving in the Peace Corps or teaching overseas. But at the end of the day I had so much respect for these year old kids who put their lives on the line for our country that I decided you know what if they're willing to do that then I should do it too. Axelrod: [00:07:26] Well I know a lot and you know to my point before many of them come from rural America many of them come from inner city communities. The There's so much of the country that is sort of insulated from that service. So you really crossed a line there in some ways and an important one I think. I mean I personally believe that there should be national service of some kind. Moulton: [00:07:57] Oh I do too. And I do too but they advocate for it in Congress. But you're right that a lot of my friends just didn't understand it. Axelrod: [00:08:04] Well not just your friends your mother said there was no career choice he could have made that would have made me more unhappy except if he had chosen a life of crime. Moulton: [00:08:13] Yes. My mother has a way with words. Axelrod: [00:08:17] That was that was that fear about what might happen to you or was that a lingering feelings from her years as a Vietnam War dissenter. Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 3

4 Moulton: [00:08:29] I think it was both. I think every parent has a healthy concern if a son or daughter wants to go into the military of course. This was before the war though and I have to say that. Axelrod: [00:08:38] I wanted to ask that a lot of you know a lot of folks of your generation said 9/11 happened and I felt the call to serve. You actually made this decision. It was in 2001 I guess but it was before those planes hit the tower and Pennsylvania and. Moulton: [00:08:57] That's right. In fact I remember sitting down with Reverend Gomes in his office in the spring of 2001 and he said to me you know Seth I don't love the fact that you've chosen the Marines as your way to serve but I think you're making a decision for the right reasons. I'd given him all my justifications for why this is what I wanted to do. And and then he added at the end he said you know I'm just glad there's not a war going on because you'd probably get yourself killed in the next five years. Over the course of my four deployments were pretty tough for him because I think he remembered those words. And of course a few months after that discussion we found ourselves in a war. Axelrod: [00:09:35] Yeah. What what did you what did you think when you heard the news about those attacks did you know that that would change your life in a in a significant way. Moulton: [00:09:50] I did but I felt proud that I had made the decision to serve at a time when Americans were lining up outside of recruiting stations because the attacks had proven to them that serving in the military is a good thing. I was proud of the fact that I didn't need September 11th to know that that that I should serve the country. And you know I also had a lot of friends who went to New York after Harvard people who went to work on Wall Street or for big firms and they actually witness these attacks firsthand. I was up literally on a railroad track crew in the White Mountains of New Hampshire when the attack happened about as far away from the hustle and bustle of Manhattan as you could get. And yet my friends were there who witnessed it firsthand but then couldn't do anything about it. I was the one person in a position to actually do something about it to fight back. And some of my friends who didn't understand my decision to serve at all. In fact there was a friend of really good friend in college who used to get breakfast with me almost everyday and we would have political debates. He was a little more conservative than I am but the only time that he got angry at me and I mean furious I mean slammed his tray down and said that is stupid. He's a few more colorful terms and walked out. So you know he said that's fucking stupid. And he was talking about my decision to to serve in the Marines he just thought I was wasting wasting my life. Moulton: [00:11:16] And after September 11th he signed up for the Army. And I think the point is that look we were friends because we share a lot of values and he ultimately decided to serve for the same reasons. But when you are in an environment where you just don't know anybody who makes this choice it becomes a hard thing to do. And after he saw me start my time in the Marines and enjoy it and be proud of it it made it a lot more accessible decision for him to serve in the army. Why did you choose the Marines. You know I think most people choose the Marines because they have an uncle who is a Marine or a father or something like that or other people have some special connection to the army or the Navy. I really didn't have any of that. And so I I talked to a lot of people and it was an Army lieutenant colonel who had done just about everything you could want to do in the Army. He was in the Rangers and the special Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 4

5 forces he was in some of the conflicts in the 1980s like that in Panama and. And yet he said he just had such undying respect for the Marine Corps that that I should sign up to be a Marine. Moulton: [00:12:21] So I took his advice. Axelrod: [00:12:22] And you ended up among the first to arrive in Iraq after war broke out. Moulton: [00:12:30] I was in the invasion. I was in the first company of Marines into Baghdad and in 2003 as a as a grunt as the lowest officer a second lieutenant an infantry platoon commander and I had a platoon of young Marines who were some of the best Americans I've ever met. Axelrod: [00:12:46] And what was the experience like that first experience. I know you had four tours of duty there. What was what was that first thrust like when you guys you went from Kuwait to Baghdad. Moulton: [00:13:01] Well gosh I mean there's so much to say about it. It was an extraordinary experience. I didn't expect to be invading a sovereign country. As a 23 year old and I certainly didn't expect to have the responsibility of keeping 36 young Americans alive when an awful lot of people were trying to kill us. But I was proud to be there. I was uncertain about the war. The whole justification for it seemed pretty shaky at best and a lot of the Marines were skeptical too. And sometimes I would say you know Jesus what are we doing here. But I would always just get back to the fact that we were there to serve the country and we were there so that nobody had to go in our place. And we had to do a good job to keep each other alive. And I think one of the interesting things about that experience was being someone who had who had gone to Harvard. People were skeptical. I mean the Marines were skeptical. They weren't sure that they weren't sure that they could trust me because they figured oh this is probably some book smart kid who has no practical experience and might get us killed. I worked hard to earn their trust but I don't think it really changed until our first firefight to speak to them in Latin or anything I laid off that good. But but a little bit into the invasion outside of Nazario we got into our first firefight and you know and I guess they thought I did a good job. And that night that very night I overheard a Marine in my platoon talking to another Marine in the company to a guy in another platoon. He said you know my platoon commander went to Harvard where two years ago. So in that instant he was proud of the fact that you know I'd worked hard and I got myself into a good school because I had to prove myself first. I had to prove that I was someone that I could be trusted. And you know what it kind of brings me back to today when I think a lot of people in today's economy just feel like they're not respected for the jobs they do because they don't have a piece of paper that says Harvard or Yale or Princeton or whatever on their on their wall. You know I never asked a Marine in my platoon to do a job because of the degree he had. Axelrod: [00:15:05] Or probably whether they were Republican or Democrat. Moulton: [00:15:07] Absolutely not. Axelrod: [00:15:08] So let me ask you this. You guys went in. The premise was that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. You probably were equipped to deal with gas and other we were chemical suits. Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 5

6 Moulton: [00:15:22] We thought we were going to get gas. One of the first reports we had coming over the border was that a bunch of Marines had been killed by by nerve agent obviously approved for a false report. But yes I mean all the intelligence that we were told that we were given you know this wasn't just some intelligence sham given to the American people and they told us the truth no. I mean all these things they told us were that that we'd be hit with chemical weapons we had to practice injecting ourselves with you know with atropine to counter the nerve agent. I mean it was it was a frightening situation. Axelrod: [00:15:54] And the other thing that was said at the time I think by Vice President Cheney was that you would be greeted as liberators. What how were you greeted. You mentioned the firefight but along the way. How were you greeted. Moulton: [00:16:10] We were greeted as liberators. It's one of the very few things that the vice president was right about and that's one of the strange things is that you know the invasion of Iraq was ill conceived that was mismanaged. I don't think anyone looks back on it now and says it was a good idea but there was this moment there was this moment in 2003 when we came in and liberated the Iraqi people from Saddam before everything went downhill. Before we had no plan for the occupation before we didn't do a good job of dealing with the insurgency all these things we screwed up. There was this moment when the Iraqi people had a taste of freedom and I have never seen a more hopeful optimistic and excited place on earth than Iraq But we couldn't make it last. Axelrod: [00:16:57] A lot of you know hindsight is One of the mistakes that people suggest was made was the disbanding of the Bathist army of Saddam Hussein because the thought was it could have been converted to better purposes. Was that your sense. Moulton: [00:17:21] WEll I mean it was one of many disastrous decisions. And you know one of my favorite quotes about that time in Iraq is from Ambassador Barbara Bodine who's got this amazing history. She's a wonderful public servant. And she said you know we knew that there were five hundred ways to do this wrong. And one way to do it right but we didn't expect to try all five hundred. And this was one of the major mistakes that was made. Now let me tell you let me let me be honest. I was something year old second lieutenant. I remember when they first told us that we ought to pay the Iraqi army and my initial reaction was why the hell would we pay these guys. We just beat them. I mean isn't that the way that this is supposed to work. But it didn't take long to figure out for us on the ground that they needed jobs. It's like Bill Clinton you know it's the economy stupid. If you're just going to put hundreds of thousands of Iraqi men out of work what are they going to do. And and so for those of us who are really on the ground who were who were talking to these soldiers who were you know these guys who'd been fighting us a week before now we are actually sharing stories about what our common military experience was. It became pretty obvious quite quickly that we ought to pay them and that was the bureaucrat in Baghdad that President Bush had sent Dover with no qualifications whatsoever to run an occupation or a country who are screwing things up. Axelrod: [00:18:45] And was there a point you mentioned the gas masks and all the precautions that you took was there a point when you said to yourself as a young second lieutenant. Holy smokes. That was not true. Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 6

7 Moulton: [00:19:01] Yes. And it was disillusioning because you want to be able to trust your leaders. You want to be able to trust now that you might say Well that was wrong intelligence or whatever but but at the end of the day you want to believe in your mission. You want to believe in what you're trying to do and don't think the Marines weren't asking me you know even the more conservative guys and whatnot were saying you know what the hell are we doing here sir what's going on. And it's hard to be a leader to be a leader in that position where you're not making the decision to invade. But you are asking young Americans to risk their lives. Axelrod: [00:19:35] You you you were there over several periods of time by the time you got back on your second tour of duty. Things had deteriorated. Let me ask you a general question and then I want to ask you about the battle that you were involved in that was particularly ferocious and meaningful. Is it hubris to believe that that we can force democracy in places where democracy has never flourished. I mean I'm a big believer in democracy but you know tribalism and sectarian differences that have taken root over centuries and millennia are powerful powerful things as we've seen there where our ambitions greater than our ability to deliver. Moulton: [00:20:34] Well in a sense obviously so because that hasn't worked. But but let me say let me answer your question. I think it is hubris to say that we're going to go impose our system of government on whoever we like but it is not it is not wrong to think that Iraqi people don't want freedom and liberty and self-determination as well. I think those are universal human dies and in some ways I appreciate them much more as an American having lived for years in a country where people don't have freedom where they don't believe that they can influence their government. One of the one of the strange things about Iraq in 2003 is is people just didn't believe that they could actually have a fair election and make a difference and in their world because they were just so frightened by Saddam and his dictatorship. And when we gave them that taste of freedom you saw that those values are universal. And and that's something that I won't forget. So I don't think we should go around the world imposing our system of government or risking American lives to change everything. But I do think that freedom liberty equality these are universal human values and just because someone grows up in Iraq doesn't mean he or she doesn't want them to. Axelrod: [00:21:52] We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with Congressman Seth Moulton. Axelrod: [00:22:05] I mentioned that you were involved in a momentous battle when you returned against the Mahdi militia. Talk about that. Moulton: [00:22:20] Well I came back to Iraq in And when I had left things were actually going pretty well. In fact the last thing that I did in Iraq in 2003 after the invasion was co-host a TV show it was called Molton and Mohamed. And it was sort of like a news talk show we were trying to teach the Iraqis freedom of the press and why freedom of the press and an independent press is important to a democracy. And so Mohamed I would go around and and do investigative journalism on things like the electricity situation all the Iraqis were frustrated they didn't have electricity. We tried to get to the bottom of it and said you know this may be what the government is telling you but this is the truth and we talked to the people who were at the power plant and at the distribution centers and and the Iraqi people love this. I mean look our production standards were pathetic but the Iraqi people didn't know how to host a TV show. Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 7

8 I just copied what I saw back home. But but the Iraqi people loved it because they'd never seen this before so it was this heady optimistic time when when we felt like we probably shouldn't have invaded. In fact a lieutenant and I took bets before we when we were down in Kuwait before we invaded and my money was on not invading because I said this is crazy we're not. Bush isn't actually going to do this but he did it. We invaded and then we just said Look Saddam is gone. Let's try to give the Iraqi people a choice. Let's try to give Iraqi people freedom and democracy like we have. So then I returned in 2004 and was shocked to see how bad things had gotten. How much the insurgency had taken over and within the first few days I found myself in far worse combat than I'd seen throughout the entire invasion. And I had a platoon in the cemetery in Najaf which is an above ground cemetery. By and large I had some underground mausoleums But but many of the most of the graves are. You have to actually walk over them to of walk five feet in any one direction you're going up and down over these over these graves sometimes falling into them. It was a very difficult place to be in combat and it was brutal very very close range throwing grenades back and forth. And and it was it was it was tough and it was hard to keep the Marines alive who was also extremely hot. What did you lose people. We lost a few in my company several wounded in my platoon and and those are life changing events. There is a there was a particularly difficult time when I this I guess a second day and had been brutally hot. I was up all night barely slept at all and we marched into the cemetery and scorching scorching heat degrees. No water no food low on ammunition. And at one point we stopped our advance and for perhaps the first time I took a break and I sat down for a few minutes behind a tombstone and opened my flak vest a little bit so that I could get a little bit of fresh air. And then I said OK I got to go back to work and the first thing I did is I went up and checked the lines and when I did I found a Marine dead and he'd been shot in the neck. And the saddest thing about it is that because all these tombstones are are above ground they're sticking up. The Marine just 10 feet to his right and the other Marine 10 feet to his left. You couldn't see him. And so he died alone. He died alone while I was taking a break. And that's something that I have always lived with and I think it's part of why you know some people say I work too hard or whatever but you know that's my experience with taking a break is that some young 18 year old kid died when I might have been there to at least hold his hand. Moulton: [00:26:22] And so it's an example of why because. Axelrod: [00:26:25] You know this young man. Moulton: [00:26:26] Oh yeah yeah. Axelrod: [00:26:28] Have you been in touch with his family. Moulton: [00:26:32] You know he was in the adjacent platoon to mine so I've let them them you know have that conversation. But but I knew him we were in a tight company and. And I've always I always felt very guilty about it and there was nothing I could do in a practical sense. But but these are life changing experience. Axelrod: [00:26:55] You were 24. Moulton: [00:26:58] Yeah. Axelrod: [00:26:59] And that was the first sort of direct confrontation. Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 8

9 Moulton: [00:27:04] No we'd seen stuff during the invasion I mean I had another Marine who was terribly terribly wounded in the invasion. They thought he would die but he after 23 hours of surgery and losing parts of different organs. He made it through so I mean I you know I'd seen a few things but but that was just one story I share about how you go through an experience like that and it affects the rest of your life. And you think about that and you think about you know sometimes I think when I just feel like I'm having a lazy day sometimes that that experience will come back to me and I say you know Seth work a lot harder. Axelrod: [00:27:35] Now you say that but you know when you when one reads up on you as as I did to prepare for this conversation what you hear even before you entered the military was you were pretty much of a nose to the grindstone guy that your classmates and others remember you as someone who was very disciplined felt people had to meet their responsibilities. You drove yourself very hard so that's partly who you are. Moulton: [00:28:07] Sure. I think that I think that's fair. My kindergarten teacher apparently told my mother that you know Seth has very high standards for himself. The problem is he has those same standards for the other guy as well. But listen I'm far from perfect. I've gotten myself into a fair bit of trouble over the years. Axelrod: [00:28:25] Including in the military I mean you know you were a bit of a cowboy then and you you you came to the attention of David Petraeus who was. Moulton: [00:28:35] You know a general called me that once he he called me in and chewed my ass as we say for for a few minutes and he said you know Moulton you're a cowboy are a goddamn cowboy. And I walked out and I looked at my friend Alex who was my teammate and I said I think I just got a compliment. But not everybody looks at it that way. Moulton: [00:28:55] You know I think the military has a very. Axelrod: [00:28:57] Petraeus embraced you. Moulton: [00:29:00] That's right. I mean he's been a maverick too and he's been someone who realizes that a lot of times the military bureaucracy is its own worst enemy. And so you have to go outside of it. And he had me come and work for him as a second lieutenant working directly for a three star general and then as a as I can say with everybody in between. Not very well not very well. Some people appreciated it and said hey you know let's let's work with this guy Mullen because he's got a direct line to the general and I have some great friends from that experience who like a captain of a special forces team that we worked with and lived with who got a lot done because we are great partners and we had a when we had a direct connection to Petraeus. But then there were a lot of other people who resented it. And you know I see I see the same thing in Congress today because Congress especially the Democratic caucuses is very seniority based hierarchical organization that a lot of times for most people just because they've been around for a long time not because they're necessarily doing a good job. Axelrod: [00:30:00] And that's got the seniority system. Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 9

10 Moulton: [00:30:02] Seniority system right. And and you know I came to Congress and I said look I want to be as humble as I can possibly be. I would go around to everybody and ask them for advice and I and I still do. I talked to colleagues all the time and say What could I be doing better. But I also recognize that I have a responsibility to serve the country that comes before any security system. And I'm not just going to sit quietly while things are screwed up and if Congress isn't doing a good job and serving the people of my district or the country well then I'm going to try to change. Axelrod: [00:30:37] And I want to get to that but I don't want to I just before we wrap up on Iraq a couple of things. Petraeus obviously is widely recognized as a kind of brilliant strategist and student of military history. The one that let's let's certify that were you surprised shocked about how it all ended for him. Moulton: [00:31:10] Completely shocked. [00:31:12] [crosstalk] Moulton: [00:31:15] Because he's not only a great military leader he's the best boss of the right. And and that's because we looked at him as a leader and he took care of us. He took care of me as a as a as a lowly Lieutenant even though he was in charge of over troops in this war. But I worked for him and he took care of me and my team and when when that happened when it was revealed that he was having this affair I mean we were everybody who worked for him when we got in touch with each other and we were all completely completely shocked no one no one expected that. But seeing him go through this and deal with it is a reminder that nobody's perfect. God knows I'm not perfect and I've made plenty of mistakes in my life. And the real test of leadership is to be able to get through that you know being a leader is not doing the right thing when it's convenient or easy or everybody else is doing it just like having courage is not having no fear it's dealing with your fear. And in this case it's dealing with a profound mistake not just providing classified information to his mistress and biographer who had a clearance and who was a military officer herself and I think in some ways that piece is overplayed but there's no question it's a mistake he's owned he's owned it. He's taken responsibility for it. And that's a tough thing as a leader. You know what I was always most scared of as a platoon commander was not that Marines in my platoon would get killed per se but that I would make a mistake that led to Marines in my platoon getting killed. That be the hardest thing to live with. And in the same way I think that for Petraeus the stakes aren't quite as high as having someone killed but. But he has to live with this mistake and everybody who looks to him including myself is one of the people who looks up to him as a leader. Now has that coloring the experience. But I'll tell you when I look at General Petraeus today I regret that he made that mistake too but I still have tremendous respect for him as a leader. And I have respect for the fact that he's not perfect. None of us are but he own responsibility for the mistake. He's worked hard to make up for it and I hope he'll serve the country again. Axelrod: [00:33:43] Last thing on Iraq the there's there's a you hear a lot that the that it was a dreadful mistake to remove all the troops from Iraq. And if we had left a residual force there that ISIS would not have been able to take root in Iraq having spent as much time as you did there. What is your feeling about that. Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 10

11 Moulton: [00:34:10] That's probably true but it's not the main point. The main point is that we needed to have political support for rebuilding the Iraqi government. Moulton: [00:34:19] And when General Petraeus was saying war. Axelrod: [00:34:21] Within Iraq. Moulton: [00:34:22] Correct so General Petraeus worked so closely with Ambassador Crocker the ambassador the U.S. ambassador at the time and they understood that any military strategy is really just there to support a political strategy. And during the surge when they worked so closely together I think we knew that. And Axelrod: [00:34:40] in a political strategy involved reconciliation between the different between the Kurds the Shia and Sunni. And Moulton: [00:34:49] look it involved the same kind of mentorship and support to the Iraqi government as we were providing to the Iraqi troops because they needed it because they hadn't had a democracy before because there are all these tribal pressures and other things making it difficult for them to have a Democratic representative government like the Iraqi people I think actually wanted. And the polling supports that. So the problem with pulling out of Iraq was just that we pulled the troops back because actually militarily we were in a pretty good situation after the surge. The problem is that we knew they needed this political support. We built the largest U.S. embassy in the world in Baghdad and then we left half full. We pulled out these advisors from the ministry the people who were keeping the prime minister in check. And look I wish we had a bunch of Iraqi politicians who didn't need that kind of guidance and support but the reality is that they needed it. And so rather than just pulling out the troops at a time when we knew they needed those political support we should have had a road just state department effort and we didn't. Axelrod: [00:35:50] Now there's been this huge effort to push ISIS back and it's been successful to a great degree. But as the political is the political foundation there no force sustain security in Iraq. Moulton: [00:36:05] No and this is the key question because I'm afraid we're about to make the exact same mistake in that three or four years from now we'll see ISIS 2.0 come in the next terrorist group just like ISIS followed Al Qaeda. ISIS was in many ways al Qaeda 2.0 and we're going to be back in the same place where we're sending young Americans back to refight the same battles that guys like I helped win a decade ago. And so the point is not that we need more and more military commitment to Iraq but that we've got to provide political support is why the State Department is so important. I may be a Marine Corps veteran an infantry officer but you won't find a bigger advocate for the State Department than me. You need to have diplomatic support around the globe and you know what. It saves American lives because if we get the politics right in Iraq and help them stand up a government that can be self-sufficient that's the only way we really go when we talk about politics so we are talking about sectarian differences with Iran now is playing such a huge role in Iraq. Axelrod: [00:37:11] The notion of reconciliation between Shia and Sunni becomes that much more difficult. Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 11

12 Moulton: [00:37:17] It becomes more difficult but look frankly Iran is doing what we should be doing. Moulton: [00:37:21] You know they're providing the kind of political support although in their case it's pretty insidious because I think they want to see the Iraqi government fail but they're providing that kind of political support that that we knew we needed to provide that we built this embassy to to enable. And so this is why when President Trump is cutting the State Department by 30 percent and yet sending thousands of troops into Iraq and Afghanistan he's getting it exactly wrong. He's getting it. Exactly wrong we shouldn't be sending more troops we should be sending more diplomats. We should be sending these State Department officials to help the Iraqis. Axelrod: [00:37:56] General Mattis himself famously said that if you cut back on diplomats and give me more money because we're going to have to fight more wars. Moulton: [00:38:05] Yeah. He said he needed to buy more ammunition. That's right. Axelrod: [00:38:09] And what about North Korea. Well we're while we're here just throw that one in there. Moulton: [00:38:14] No easy problem to solve in the last few minutes. Axelrod: [00:38:19] As you watch this unfold and as we speak the North Koreans just fire another missile over Japan. Where is this going. You sit on the Armed Services Committee where does it go. Moulton: [00:38:33] I don't know. But it's deadly serious and we have a commander in chief who's wild and erratic and irresponsible has had a lot of bluster. But I think ultimately all that bluster is a blunder and it could get us into some real deep trouble. This is a very difficult situation because there is no military solution and any military commander will tell you that that if we tried to take out North Korea's missiles they're going to launch an artillery barrage on the south that will kill hundreds of thousands of South Koreans and tens of thousands of Americans who are living in and around Seoul. That's not acceptable. So it's another place where what we should have is a much stronger diplomatic effort than military effort. We have to keep up the military pressure. Sure. Moulton: [00:39:17] Of course we do. And we've got to make sure our defenses are strong. Moulton: [00:39:22] But at the end of the day what resolve this crisis is is diplomatic pressure. Axelrod: [00:39:27] Is it is the diplomatic pressure solely on North Korea because now the Russians seem to be giving more assistance to the North Koreans even as the Chinese are pulling back a little. Moulton: [00:39:40] Well it's a great example of how Russia is our enemy not our friend. And it's why we should be pressuring Russia not allowing them to attack our elections frankly. Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 12

13 Moulton: [00:39:49] But this is why having a leader in the Oval Office who is respected by people around the globe who's not the laughingstock of dictators in Russia or China or wherever else but is someone who can actually be be trusted both when it means standing up to our enemies and also standing by our allies. Axelrod: [00:40:09] Well the problem with. Well let me let me just because I got to do a little business here. We're going to take a short break and we'll be back with Congressman Seth Moulton. I interrupted you before the break so Finish. Finish your point. Moulton: [00:40:28] Well I was just saying that it's a problem having a president in the Oval Office who's fundamentally not trusted not trusted by our allies to stand by by them and not trusted by our enemies because as he infamously said I'm sending an armada to North Korea. Turns out it's headed in the opposite direction. I mean this is fundamentally a man who can't speak the truth and therefore someone who can't keep promises. Axelrod: [00:40:55] Just to pick up your narrative. You went. You came back. You you return to Harvard added a few more degrees to your to your resume and not to in any way denigrate the education that went along with it. And then you decided to run for Congress and you improbably up ended a long term incumbent. Moulton: [00:41:23] Well it wasn't quite as simple as that I did. Well. Moulton: [00:41:26] No no I didn't lose but I went to business school and then like every aspiring Massachusetts politician I took a job in Dallas Texas. So going into politics is not what I planned to do. And I have a lot of respect for people in politics respect for what you do David. But it just wasn't interesting to me. I had never studied in school or worked on a campaign or anything like that. But when I was down in Dallas I got a phone call from a woman named Emily. Emily turnback who's a who's a city year alumna. She started an organization called new politics and she's trying to recruit service veterans to run for office at a time when we've never had fewer veterans in Congress in our nation's history. So she called me when I was down in Texas and she said you ought to run for Congress. And I said that what are you talking about. I'm living in Texas is crazy says no you should come back to your home district in Massachusetts and think about running. Well I said No I said no a few times. But she's a very persistent lady and she got me to give it a shot. She initially called me in 2012 that may be what you're remembering I didn't get into the race. Axelrod: [00:42:28] Yes that was what I was remembering. Moulton: [00:42:30] Yes. So I didn't I didn't. I decided not to run then. But but I kept listening to what she said and I explored the possibility and decided to run in Fundamentally just because I believe that you know if people aren't willing to challenge the establishment. Things are never going to get better. And I thought back to a time in 2004 in the middle of Iraq when a young Marine in my platoon said you know sir you ought to run for Congress someday. So that shit doesn't happen again. Moulton: [00:43:01] And you know he didn't give it to me then because as I said I went back went to business school took a job in Texas but maybe in the long run he did convince me because I thought back to that conversation I thought back to what Corporal Castro said to me. Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 13

14 And ultimately I decided to run and I ran against an incumbent who I just thought wasn't doing a great job. He'd been there for 18 years and only passed one bill in 18 years and I was able to beat him in a tough primary actually was the only Democrat in the country to beat an incumbent in the house primary that year in Axelrod: [00:43:31] He had a few ethical issues that he had been re-elected since then. Moulton: [00:43:35] He did have some but I never ran on those literally never brought it up once during the campaign. But it was a tough district actually it's Massachusetts. But our Republican governor won the district by 13 points. It was on Frontline list so a top targeted district by the Republicans and the polling just before the primary showed that if the incumbent had beat me in the primary if he beat me in the primary he would have lost two to the Republican in the general election. So after I won the primary it was a tough general election fight as well. But I ultimately prevailed and I'm proud to represent the people of Massachusetts now. Axelrod: [00:44:08] Gingrich getting back to what you started raising before the sort of maverick role that you've chosen for yourself in various iterations in your life. You're now viewed as one of the point people in a sort of generational challenge to the Democratic leadership of the house. Talk about that. Moulton: [00:44:30] Well look let me start by saying that I'm not trying to be a maverick for the sake of being a maverick. I'm just trying to do what's right. And when I stuck my neck out in Iraq and disagreed with some of my fellow officers and told generals what I think I thought things were screwed up and not going well even though that wasn't the party line. I was just doing what I thought was right. And when I you know broke with tradition from my classmates at Harvard and joined the military I wasn't trying to prove anything really. I thought I was just trying to do what was right. I mean maybe it was part of me that was trying to prove that I was up to it to myself. But I was just trying to do what was right and you know in the house right now I think it's time for new leadership and in fact I'm concerned that if we don't get some new leadership it's going to be hard for Democrats to start winning again. I mean the definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing again and again and expecting a different result. Axelrod: [00:45:22] Let me ask you a question about that because I guess what comes to mind is what would let's say you and I know you're not suggesting you you will be the leader of that I promised that I wouldn't run because I want to people know that I wasn't doing this to advance my own career. But let's just theoretically say you were what would you be doing as leader that you don't feel that Nancy Pelosi is doing as a leader. And I tell you this with some bias because I worked with her when I was in the White House. And I found her to be the most effective person up there in that when she told you something was going to happen it happened and if she told you it could. It wasn't going to happen. She generally was right. And so you know I thought her I thought she was a very effective leader. But tell me what you what you would be doing now that would make the Democratic Party a more effective party. Moulton: [00:46:25] Well first of all I agree with you that she has been a very effective leader and most people say that Obamacare would not have been passed without her. Axelrod: [00:46:32] I would be one of them and I was there right. Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 14

15 Moulton: [00:46:35] I wasn't but I believe you and I mean look she's the first woman to become speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives. I mean a truly historic politician. So this is nothing personal against Nancy Pelosi. I have tremendous respect for her. I mean look she knows a lot more about politics than I do. I'm very new to this whole thing. But there's a time and a place for everything. And she's also been a very effective opposition figure for the Republicans. A lot of that isn't isn't entirely fair either the way she's been painted by the Republicans. In fact it's in some ways it's just totally immoral it's wrong. But nonetheless it's been effective. And Democrats need to start winning again. We need to start winning again to preserve these values that are inherent to what makes us who we are as Americans we need to preserve the access to health care that President Obama enabled. We need to preserve the right to marry whoever you love. We need to make sure that freedom and equality are extended to all of America. And I know that we can't count on our Republican friends to uphold those promises and we certainly can't count on this administration. Moulton: [00:47:40] So we want to take back the House of Representatives to put a check on Trump. I think we need new leadership and I think it's time for a new generation of leadership in the Democratic Party. Axelrod: [00:47:50] You know you mentioned values and the values that you want to preserve. She and Senator Schumer apparently just a deal with the president we'll see if it stands up and actually gets affirmed by the Congress to codify Daka and protect those young immigrants. Isn't that a measure of effectiveness as well if that comes to pass. I mean aren't those at the end of the day isn't it about winning progress and not just about elections. Moulton: [00:48:25] Well we've got to do whatever we can to save these kids who came here through no fault of their own. And are Americans just like the rest of us they serve in the military they go to school they contribute to our economy. I mean just in Massachusetts we will suffer a massive millions and millions of dollars of economic losses. Axelrod: [00:48:46] But isn't it to her credit if that if that comes to pass. Moulton: [00:48:50] So are you saying that no other leader could have done it either. Axelrod: [00:48:52] I don't know. I mean I'm not I'm asking you Moulton: [00:48:56] I'd say I give her a lot. I give her a lot of credit for doing that it's credit that's well deserved. But she would be in a much better negotiating position if Democrats controlled the House of Representatives than than we are in now. And that's why I think it's so important that we have a leadership change so that we can start winning again. Axelrod: [00:49:15] So your basic point is that she has become a partly because of decades of demonization. Moulton: [00:49:25] That's not fair. I mean David it's not fair to her. It's not right. But but you know there's this yearning I think for for a new generation of Democrats to step up and say we need to get back in touch with middle America who we've lost. Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 15

16 Moulton: [00:49:40] We need to make sure that we are a party that truly understand what it means to be hurting in this new economy to be out of work to be to be seeing are jobs taken over not by immigrants but by by robots being automated out of existence. Axelrod: [00:49:54] And what we do about that by the way now that you're on that point it's a big huge problem. And we lost four or five jobs to not to China or to Mexico but to robots computers artificial intelligence is coming very fast. Moulton: [00:50:12] Well look let's be honest let me just say on this on this leadership thing that our leadership got up before the caucus and said you know what we need to do to start winning again is to go back to when we were in control and I said look it's a different place it's a different world. People were just getting used to an iphone back then. Moulton: [00:50:30] We need to face the economic problems of today and of the future. We need have a plan to deal with automation and it's got to be a plan that says to everybody in America no matter where you live not just if you live in a good city and a big city rather on the coast that's doing well on this and this in this new economy. But if you live in a small town in rural America we want you to be a part of the economy of the future as well. And this is going to be hard. There are a few things we need do we need to make some serious reforms in education because education is no longer something that you can just get in high school or college and then be set for the rest of your life. The economy is changing too quickly. People need to be able to be retrained for jobs. Axelrod: [00:51:10] Nor is college education necessarily. Moulton: [00:51:13] That's true. Exactly. So I have an apprenticeship bill that I'm working on in Congress to try to dramatically expand apprenticeships because ultimately we need people to know that they will be respected and admired for jobs that don't require a college degree. Not everybody wants to get a college degree. And we need we need those folks as part of our economy as well. I think Democrats are right to say that you know everybody should have an opportunity to get a college education. If you can't pay for it you get it for free. I support that. But we also need to say that if you want to get an apprenticeship or you want to go to vocational school that we will provide that opportunity for you and not only that but will respect you for your job when you get out. Axelrod: [00:51:57] Yeah. And there's been some innovative work done at community colleges around the country that have sort of made themselves training outlets for future oriented jobs. Listening to you speak and looking at your travel schedule raises the question as to whether you are pondering potentially running for president. Moulton: [00:52:20] So I'm 38 years old. I'm very new to politics. Axelrod: [00:52:24] But you're remedying that thing every day you're probably getting older. Moulton: [00:52:28] And I do get older every day I guess is something I can't stop. But by as much as I might regret it. Look no I'm traveling the country because I'm supporting these candidates for 2018 and. Ep. 173 Seth Moulton 16